Atheism, Marxism, and all that other stuff

[mack341]

well, take gambling, or sewing, or, i dunno, creative writing
you can share an interest in a topic, discuss it and chill with like-minded people; it doesnt mean you ascribe some sort of belief in those things

i know it's a fine point but there's
A - a person who does not believe in a god or gods vs
B - a person who believes there is no god or gods

atheism is A. It isn't about belief. If made to think about it or question it an atheist would say A, because it isnt any sort of active belief; it isnt an issue in their world at all.
Some however, may find it an interesting point of discussion

I've nearly got it but not quite, so an atheist is a person who has no active belief in god(s) while having no opinion/belief on whether there is a god? otherwise to them it's like having to have an active belief in the non existence of fairies, it's a non starter, a non question due to absurdity and being made up.

 

[paul7388]

so is it a form of nationalism, identity differences, morality, lifestyle etc..or just a tradition of emnity and hatred which has just gone on and obtained it's own momentum beyond the original causes??

Way too hard to explain.

You would need to google it and read up on it all.

Let's just say things are not as bad as they were. But Glasgow still has seperate schools. Roman Catholics go to Catholic school Others go to what all schools should be non denominational schools.

Two large football teams. One mainly followed by Catholic other by Protestant. A lot of pubs in certain area are one or the other. You try walking into one of them on an old firm night wearing the wrong top you would be lucky to survive and that is not being overdramatic lol.

Still in this day and age there are marches from either religion and the Orange Order is still real strong and those parades can cause a lot of trouble. Personally i got brought up being proud to be Scottish and British and my boy through his own choice plays a flute in a band hence reason i am in Belfast every July.

But a lot of it is stupid. All goes back to the Irish roots. For example at any parade or function my boy is at God save the Queen is always played at the end. Whereas on the other side they would sing F*** the queen. Like i say it is crazy really. But this is just basics and way it is now it goes into no real details why things are like this. You would need to research it all yourself as it would take months to explain it.

But main point is it is same God that both sides follow. Most people get on well with each other here. It is just the real strong Bigoted ones that have hatred. Their are still some people that would disown their son for example if they said they were marrying a catholic and would refuse to set foot in a chapel and vice versa. Not many like that now but still some that will never change.

 

[dionysus]

If you're looking to compare atheism to agnostism, you can think of it this way
The atheist doesnt wake up and think about whether theres a god(s) because it isnt any sort of factor in their life whereas a theist has an active belief in the divine. An atheist would probably only refer to themselves as an atheist as a point of reference to theistic beliefs; the same way a heterosexual male probably wouldnt otherwise wake up and think about heterosexuality; it only comes about to differentiate from not being a homosexual if a point of comparison were required. There was no word for heterosexual until homosexual became a word

An agnostic can possibly be described to have a belief, but probably more accurate to say a view - that one doesnt or cannot know if there is a god(s). ie I don't think there's one one, but who knows, maybe there's a creator or higher power, but I wouldnt say it has a white beard and handed out commandments

 

[dionysus]

I've nearly got it but not quite, so an atheist is a person who has no active belief in god(s) while having no opinion/belief on whether there is a god? otherwise to them it's like having to have an active belief in the non existence of fairies, it's a non starter, a non question due to absurdity and being made up.

well, atheists would as likely have an opinion on it as on any subject, if made or asked to draw an opinion.
And by the way, the way a Christian isnt a Christian isnt a Christian, all atheists couldnt be describe in absolutely the same way; im speaking broadly

 

[dionysus]

paganism is a little easier and falls closer to agnostism - it likely involves an element of belief - ie belief in gods or higher beings or spitual things
i think though, the spectrum is as broad as theism (and likely involves some theism) - im not as well-versed here

I straddle the line between atheist/agnostic but grew up in a christian household with a minister for a brother

 

[paul7388]

I've nearly got it but not quite, so an atheist is a person who has no active belief in god(s) while having no opinion/belief on whether there is a god? otherwise to them it's like having to have an active belief in the non existence of fairies, it's a non starter, a non question due to absurdity and being made up.

You are over thinking stuff.

I do not believe in a god but i would still have an opinion on it which would be people that believe in them are wrong but it is their own choice.

Take this thread for instance. I only state i do not believe in God as it is being asked. But if noone ever mentioned God i would carry on my life till i died without ever thinking about it.

 

[mack341]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action and enjoyment.

 

[dionysus]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action.

I actually consider myself highly moral - even to the detrement of myself and find a lot of theists use theism as a way to excuse bad doings because of absolution

 

[mack341]

I straddle the line between atheist/agnostic but grew up in a christian household with a minister for a brother

blimey, you have lived close to the issues! some of my family have been into the church in quite a big way and they tend to be a bit distant and wrapped up in the church and missing what's going on around them, and can only think in relation to the bible verse, 'what does the bible say about this problem' is their immediate train of thought etc..

 

[dionysus]

blimey, you have lived close to the issues! some of my family have been into the church in quite a big way and they tend to be a bit distant and wrapped up in the church and missing what's going on around them, and can only think in relation to the bible verse, 'what does the bible say about this problem' is their immediate train of thought etc..

i consider myself a pragmatic (with a dose of optimism)
I really don't have an issue with faith - if it serves you well to be happy and tolerant, power to you; ive more faith (or often, lack of) in people and my abilities

 

[paul7388]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action.

But Religion has no bearing on anything. People are either good or bad . I would say Morally i am strong and certainly know what is right and wrong. My conscience and guilt would be the same. I would have to live with consequences in my own mind not whether some God disliked my actions.

Seriously if you looked at most crimes and prisons you will find many were commited by religious people. Why else do prisons have Chaplains and Priests.
You seriously think someone that is going to do something wrong will be held back by thinking would god agree lol.

 

[dionysus]

You seriously think someone that is going to do something wrong will be held back by thinking would god agree lol.

and often done because believed to be righteous or justified

 

[dionysus]

as paul says, you're likely overthinking it
and it can often be a good debate if approcahed philosophically, but rarely occurs when faith is involved because the counter-argument too often can be 'well, I believe so, because of faith' which doesnt require any kind of logical justification; that's rather what faith is

it's like rigged threads if rigged camp were theists and non-rigged were atheists
side A: I believe slots are rigged. It's a feeling I have
side B: they arent, and here's why....x, y, z
side A: cool, well, I still believe theyre rigged anyway

always makes for interesting discussions but generally heated

either way, I'm stepping out, lest it comes to that

 

[trancemonkey]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action and enjoyment.

I have a real problem with this, and I think this way of thinking you show proves why religion is bad.

Religion has absolutely nothing to do with morality. There are many, many people who do horrendous things in the name of religion. There are also non-religious people who do bad things, but not in the name of religion.
You sound like you have been religiously brainwashed in to believing that you can only be good with religion in your life, which is just utter crap.

All of those people should know right from wrong... are you seriously suggesting that people only avoid doing bad things because they fear being judged by God?!

I sont do bad things because a) I dont want to b) because I care what other people think and c) because it's illegal/immoral. It has nothing to do with a God.

In act, I would argue the opposite is true. If someone religious does something bad, they ask their God for forgiveness, and then they believe they are forgiven. I do not have that luxury... if I do something bad, I have to live with that guilt.

And atheism is not a reduction in possibilities any more than Muslim is. Atheists just believe in one less God than people of any other religion.

The whole concept of God is flawed anyway... so many things in the Bible are demonstrably false, barbaric, morally inept and scientifically inaccurate. And yet people just say "oh, that bit? Yeah, that was just symbolic. Not factual."

I mean, that's just a BS argument...

 

[pinnit2014]

Thread should have a spoiler warning re Santa - kids could be reading.

 

[dionysus]

Thread should have a spoiler warning re Santa - kids could be reading.

lol, if they are, wait til they see the C word poppin up

 

[mack341]

I have a real problem with this, and I think this way of thinking you show proves why religion is bad.

Religion has absolutely nothing to do with morality. There are many, many people who do horrendous things in the name of religion. There are also non-religious people who do bad things, but not in the name of religion.
You sound like you have been religiously brainwashed in to believing that you can only be good with religion in your life, which is just utter crap.

All of those people should know right from wrong... are you seriously suggesting that people only avoid doing bad things because they fear being judged by God?!

I sont do bad things because a) I dont want to b) because I care what other people think and c) because it's illegal/immoral. It has nothing to do with a God.

In act, I would argue the opposite is true. If someone religious does something bad, they ask their God for forgiveness, and then they believe they are forgiven. I do not have that luxury... if I do something bad, I have to live with that guilt.

And atheism is not a reduction in possibilities any more than Muslim is. Atheists just believe in one less God than people of any other religion.

The whole concept of God is flawed anyway... so many things in the Bible are demonstrably false, barbaric, morally inept and scientifically inaccurate. And yet people just say "oh, that bit? Yeah, that was just symbolic. Not factual."

I mean, that's just a BS argument...

calm down, calm down easy fella I wasn't meaning a reduction of possibilities to one's general life, the small scale, but that was about the large scale; an intelligent creator or force creating the universe is far more interesting to me than just a universe of random 'matter' colliding. If you take away the idea / belief in a creator you're by definition reducing a big possibility.

where's all this "You sound like you have been religiously brainwashed" coming from?

If someone religious does something bad, they ask their God for forgiveness, and then they believe they are forgiven.

not sure about this, catholics go to confession etc.. I'm not 100% certain what happens there, I would say most religious people would 'hope' they're forgiven. But the way you've written that its conjuring up a very simplistic process.

On earlier claims that I'd been overthinking what atheism means or entails, its not quite as simple a concept as I thought, and there are masses of articles and webpages devoted to the argument/discussion of whether atheism is a belief itself, if it is then it requires proof but the problem is you cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

So it falls back to a non belief, but for a non belief it creates a heck of a lot activity/activism, and seems to resemble a belief/idea which the militant atheists want to spread and influence others on. It's not a passive thing that they keep to themselves, and in that way they are behaving similar to religious preachers trying to convert people to their way of thinking.

I was very pleased and surprised to find that some of the points I was tentatively trying to raise earlier are actually raised brilliantly and powerfully by Peter Hitchens in an address to the oxford Union:




Also this interview with brendan O'neill is very interesting, at 4.02 onwards they touch upon whether atheism is just a passive non belief in god(s) or something more active

 

[trancemonkey]

calm down, calm down easy fella I wasn't meaning a reduction of possibilities to one's general life, the small scale, but that was about the large scale; an intelligent creator or force creating the universe is far more interesting to me than just a universe of random 'matter' colliding. If you take away the idea / belief in a creator you're by definition reducing a big possibility.

No you aren't at all, you are opening up the questions of how all this came to exist if the big bang theory is correct. You are opening up a huge conundrum that science hasnt yet figured out. And nor has religion.

So I would disagree quite strongly. The idea of God is purely a proxy for "what we don't understand". There used to be God's of fire, water, etc.. No one needs those any more because we now know exactly what causes fire and water.

 

[paul7388]

I will leave you to it mack .

I really do not see what you are trying to get by doing all this research online about atheism and what it means.

Again it only creates a big deal as people that believe in God make such a fuss about it. Non believers would have no need to even mention that fact if God was not constantly mentioned.

Damn i have been issued the idle threat a few times by some that i would go to hell for not believing. Like seriously as i don't believe in God i am hardly fearing going to hell lol.

But hope you find your answers in those videos you are searching. By your reckoning elves , aliens , ghosts , loch ness monster could all exist as noone can prove they don't.

Really it is simple. People have a choice to not believe in a God it makes them no less a person or morally wrong. Same as in my opinion someone who needs to look to a fictional being for guidance , and to help get them through the day has the choice to do so. If someone needs the idea that something is there to answer their prayers or gets comfort in praying to something they do not know exists then so be it.

 

[mack341]

No you aren't at all, you are opening up the questions of how all this came to exist if the big bang theory is correct. You are opening up a huge conundrum that science hasnt yet figured out. And nor has religion.

So I would disagree quite strongly. The idea of God is purely a proxy for "what we don't understand". There used to be God's of fire, water, etc.. No one needs those any more because we now know exactly what causes fire and water.

I still can't see what you are disagreeing strongly with, I was not talking about whether the existence of god is true or false, I was just saying for myself I find atheism depressing, as you're left only with the atheistic meaning of life. Which is what exactly, enjoy yourself as much as possible as you'll be brown bread soon??

How can taking away God or a creator/ intelligent creative force not be reducing the possibilities of the meaning to life?

 

[paul7388]

I still can't see what you are disagreeing strongly with, I was not talking about whether the existence of god is true or false, I was just saying for myself I find atheism depressing, as you're left only with the atheistic meaning of life. Which is what exactly, enjoy yourself as much as possible as you'll be brown bread soon??

How can taking away God or a creator/ intelligent creative force not be reducing the possibilities of the meaning to life?

Definitely my last post on this lol.

Look at that from the other side. Some would say that someone that cannot get by without having to need and pray to a god for existence is exactly what you described.
You could say why can people not just enjoy life and make most out of it without the need to worship an idol of some sort.

 

[TheAddict]

FFS Mack. Will you just STOP procrastinating and get on with those damn chores! ;p

 

[mack341]

Definitely my last post on this lol.

Look at that from the other side. Some would say that someone that cannot get by without having to need and pray to a god for existence is exactly what you described.
You could say why can people not just enjoy life and make most out of it without the need to worship an idol of some sort.

The thing is I don't pray and worship not in the conventional sense, saying that I do sometimes I pray for GOLD to drop in it still never does

I will leave you to it mack .

I really do not see what you are trying to get by doing all this research online about atheism and what it means.

I haven't really done much research to be honest, just 15 mins browsing on google, it's not a subject I'm particularly interested in, if I was a committed christian or muslim then that would be different as they feel their faith is under attack.
David replied earlier and the discussion took off again, I do seem to be getting attacked for posting very mild talking points

The topic of nihilism popped up in my head earlier as the nihilists had no belief in god etc.. but I daren't post anything else now for causing further unintended offence

 

[mack341]

FFS Mack. Will you just STOP procrastinating and get on with those damn chores! ;p

I managed a bit of work today but not enough, David's post was all the excuse I needed to have a sit down for 3 hours

 

[paul7388]

The thing is I don't pray and worship not in the conventional sense, saying that I do sometimes I pray for GOLD to drop in it still never does



I haven't really done much research to be honest, just 15 mins browsing on google, it's not a subject I'm particularly interested in, if I was a committed christian or muslim then that would be different as they feel their faith is under attack.
David replied earlier and the discussion took off again, I do seem to be getting attacked for posting very mild talking points

The topic of nihilism popped up in my head earlier as the nihilists had no belief in god etc.. but I daren't post anything else now for causing further unintended offence

Believe me you have not caused me any offence. Like i said people are entitled to different views . More just wondering why you were looking for so many answers about atheism. Way i look at it is i live my life. It is good or bad would be no different if i had a god in it.

But anyway i don't think you will have offended anyone on here certainly not me so post what you feel needs answered. Then again i am one of those people that is not easily offended by anything posted online unless it is something sick. Maybe that's caused by my lack of religion