ATTN: Casino Rep And anyone that has a direct line to Relax Gaming - Big Issue with Money Train!

incrediblestuff

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Hi folks, was just playing Money Train, the original, and got in there with about 30 euros, did a few 10 cent spins, until i had 28.02 left, and proceeded to buy a bonus.

I usually 'even out' the balance until the exact cost of the bonus buy is reached, or close to. No idea why, just the way i roll - i guess im hoping to trigger it 'cheaply' before the actual buy...

So, the bonus returned 62x, putting my balance back at 26.22
Again i did two more spins, to get to 16 (for two bonusbuys or perhaps one on a higher denomination, was still contemplating) when i noticed my balance was now 10.22

A little shocked i tried to figure out what just happened, when i noticed the betsize was now at 8 euros. Apparently, the mechanics had faultily set the last bet of 8 euro (the bonusbuy) as the 'normal bet' and chucked that on.

Gutted - to say the least, i immediately contacted chat and elevated the issue to tech, told them to immediately contact the provider and pull the game, because with all the quickspinning loonies out there, myself included, the scenarios could've been much worse, and with that i mean costlier.

One could argue i needed to pay closer attention, but i'd like you to put yourself in my shoes, and as a veteran gambler, playing slots you know fully well, you don't expect the betsize to jump, unless you click a button, (and this used to be an issue with max bet buttons close to the spin, back in the day, and for some providers still is) but never expect a game to just do that on it's own. More so, i am looking at the screen, to see what rolls in, not so much on the side, where the buttons to change bet/buy bonus are located, and as said, i came in, clicked a few 10 cent spins, bought the bonus, clicked two more times and then it had already happened...

Imagine i had just won big on a few slots, having a balnce of more than 640 (been there before) and decided to do a few buys in a row? If i clicked as fast as i usually do, then this same scenario COULD have taken a whole 640 euros, which is the cost for a bonus buy on an 8 euro betsize, because of course i checked, and it definitely also was set at that amount, so it's not just the normal bet that is affected, but the bonusbuy jumps too (which kinda makes sense).

I mean it's a weird bug, where the slot just thinks you are betting 8 a spin, and 'corrects itself', but it's quite serious.
So other than this being me ranting, and warning you folks to prevent similar mistakes, if anyone here has a line to Relax, please inform them asap, as V&J are a great Casino, but i know stuff like this can take ages sometimes, communicating between various departments and so on...

tagging @Casinomeister @dunover @neilw as i know they have plenty ties, but im sure everyone is busy enough, so whoever out there reads this, feel free to tag the right folks:)
 

dunover

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Hi folks, was just playing Money Train, the original, and got in there with about 30 euros, did a few 10 cent spins, until i had 28.02 left, and proceeded to buy a bonus.

I usually 'even out' the balance until the exact cost of the bonus buy is reached, or close to. No idea why, just the way i roll - i guess im hoping to trigger it 'cheaply' before the actual buy...

So, the bonus returned 62x, putting my balance back at 26.22
Again i did two more spins, to get to 16 (for two bonusbuys or perhaps one on a higher denomination, was still contemplating) when i noticed my balance was now 10.22

A little shocked i tried to figure out what just happened, when i noticed the betsize was now at 8 euros. Apparently, the mechanics had faultily set the last bet of 8 euro (the bonusbuy) as the 'normal bet' and chucked that on.

Gutted - to say the least, i immediately contacted chat and elevated the issue to tech, told them to immediately contact the provider and pull the game, because with all the quickspinning loonies out there, myself included, the scenarios could've been much worse, and with that i mean costlier.

One could argue i needed to pay closer attention, but i'd like you to put yourself in my shoes, and as a veteran gambler, playing slots you know fully well, you don't expect the betsize to jump, unless you click a button, (and this used to be an issue with max bet buttons close to the spin, back in the day, and for some providers still is) but never expect a game to just do that on it's own. More so, i am looking at the screen, to see what rolls in, not so much on the side, where the buttons to change bet/buy bonus are located, and as said, i came in, clicked a few 10 cent spins, bought the bonus, clicked two more times and then it had already happened...

Imagine i had just won big on a few slots, having a balnce of more than 640 (been there before) and decided to do a few buys in a row? If i clicked as fast as i usually do, then this same scenario COULD have taken a whole 640 euros, which is the cost for a bonus buy on an 8 euro betsize, because of course i checked, and it definitely also was set at that amount, so it's not just the normal bet that is affected, but the bonusbuy jumps too (which kinda makes sense).

I mean it's a weird bug, where the slot just thinks you are betting 8 a spin, and 'corrects itself', but it's quite serious.
So other than this being me ranting, and warning you folks to prevent similar mistakes, if anyone here has a line to Relax, please inform them asap, as V&J are a great Casino, but i know stuff like this can take ages sometimes, communicating between various departments and so on...

tagging @Casinomeister @dunover @neilw as i know they have plenty ties, but im sure everyone is busy enough, so whoever out there reads this, feel free to tag the right folks:)
No, that should NOT happen and it didn't happen on the demo I reviewed. I don't know anyone at Relax, although I could ask Kim (Letsgiveitaspin) as he should have.
 

incrediblestuff

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No, that should NOT happen and it didn't happen on the demo I reviewed. I don't know anyone at Relax, although I could ask Kim (Letsgiveitaspin) as he should have.

Yeah, i know it's a fairly recent issue as i've bought bonuses on it in the past, so this is a new bug, i certainly never heard anything of it..Although i vaguely recall someone here on the forum posting about some Money train issue - but i tried searching and couldn't find it. Iirc i read that thread and what the guy wrote didn't make sense to me, so forgot about it

Feel free to ask Kim, he's a great chap, perhaps he can speed things up :)
 
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dunover

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Yeah, i know it's a fairly recent issueas i've bought bonuses on it in the past, so this is a new bug, i certainly never heard anything fof it..Although i vaguely recall someone here on the forum posting about some Money train issue but i tried searching and couldn't find it, iirc i read that thread and what the guy wrote didn't make sense to me so forgot about it

Feel free to ask Kim, he's a great chap, perhaps he can speed things up :)
I have contacted him.
 

linasfrn

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Hello i believe i have realy simillar isue hope some one can get me to right direction. Im big fan of relax gaming iron bank slot. I was doing casual 50eur bonus buys, and suddenly one bonuys payed arround 960-1050~ i was happy after win i cliked to buy next bonus buy and i noticed that my balance wasnt updated at all. I started with arround 170eur before doing big win buy and after buy i noticed that there is only 120(even70~ becouse i did instantly another buy) And insiide game you can check only last bonus buy history i see in casino website that there some glitch realy becouse no information how bonus finished is given not like other i attach image, i was doing this today arround 17 o lock gtm+2 is there any chance some on can help with this software bug its alot money for me
 

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manttih

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some questions:

- how can such a bug get past the testing, isn't all the games tested thorougly by independent third party?
- also, how can the fix be done in one day? Aren't all games reaudited every time there are changes to the game?
- how many people lost 8€ and was the money returned automatically to them?

@trancemonkey / @Halvor ?
 

linasfrn

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I Did 50euro buys, but i did like 2000 or more buys in year on Iron bank i realy love this, but im so frustated becouse this week i lost on this game arround 800euro, i tought RTP worked and after my 1k~ win i didint recived it to balance, il try write complaint to askgamblers today becouse casino staff is kinda useles not providing current updates and information
 

incrediblestuff

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Hello i believe i have realy simillar isue hope some one can get me to right direction. Im big fan of relax gaming iron bank slot. I was doing casual 50eur bonus buys, and suddenly one bonuys payed arround 960-1050~ i was happy after win i cliked to buy next bonus buy and i noticed that my balance wasnt updated at all. I started with arround 170eur before doing big win buy and after buy i noticed that there is only 120(even70~ becouse i did instantly another buy) And insiide game you can check only last bonus buy history i see in casino website that there some glitch realy becouse no information how bonus finished is given not like other i attach image, i was doing this today arround 17 o lock gtm+2 is there any chance some on can help with this software bug its alot money for me
All i see in your screens is a weird display of the history, but that would hardly be anything conclusive - if you already took it up with the Casino in question, and they didn't want or weren't able to help you, then you could take things up with the provider as i tried here.

P.m. this guy if that's your goal. Reimbursement is another story. In my own example above i didn't get any and wasn't expecting any, it's often a pain in the arse with such bugs, especially if it isn't obvious from the history. But i felt it was a fix that needed attention. Hope you get it solved.

some questions:

- how can such a bug get past the testing, isn't all the games tested thorougly by independent third party?
- also, how can the fix be done in one day? Aren't all games reaudited every time there are changes to the game?
- how many people lost 8€ and was the money returned automatically to them?

@trancemonkey / @Halvor ?
Valid questions, i think you tagged the right people :)

I certainly didn't get my 8 back, and of course the Casinos and Provider have zero way of seeing who's buy was or was not intentional, apart from players that actually contacted support after experiencing it. Let's hope it was just me

Couldn't tell you anything about the changes and/or any testing before and after, i'm out of the loop of that one, and also curious to know!
 

manttih

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@incrediblestuff , I tagged them as they constantly keep telling us that games are thoroughly tested and no changes can be made without reauditioning of the game. I am starting to think this is not true: How can you retest a game in one day? If such bugs can occur in a game long time after publishing, that means that the game has been changed and not tested (as this sort of bug most certainly wouldn't get trough). This has been discussed on lots of threads, especially on Bonanza one.

And thus, I don't believe this was a 'bug', but a deliberate change to a game. You say you didn't get the 8e back. The game itself is built based on bonus buys, so MANY players will have experienced this bug. Say a 10 000 players accidentally press spin after bonus buy -> casino gets 80 000€ extra (as the hit rate in this game isn't too high).

@trancemonkey and @Halvor , feel free to prove me wrong! :)
 

incrediblestuff

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Well, i'm sure most of the games are currently tested and have to be retested after new changes and updates. But it's a complicated subject. There are different licenses, different testing labs and certifications, international and national laws, and of course protocols in place, I'm sure for some urgent changes there are less complicated ways that could see a little fix or update go through, but as said, This may differ per licensing zone, provider, law, geolocation, etc.

Remember, sometimes fixes bring new bugs, that only occur in particular scenarios. The world of software is huge spiderweb of crazy possibilities, to put it mildly :D

I wouldn't go as far as saying this was a deliberate ploy, i sincerely doubt that! The original Money Train also wasn't as focused on Bonusbuys as the 2nd, and you can play the basegame just fine. I don't think 10.000 players had the same issue, i actually believe it was just me, and perhaps some other unlucky fool.

But, your questions are valid nonetheless.
 

manttih

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@incrediblestuff , if some 'urgent' changes can be done without testing, how can anyone be sure no bigger changes are made? :) Can these 'bugs' be used as a ploy to change game maths after testing?

As I understand, a checksum on casinos tells if the game is the same that was originally tested, wouldn't the checksum change after update, thus making the game unplayable on other casinos? Either all changes are tested (as we are told) , or they are not tested! :cool:

I haven't played Money Train I, only Money Train II. But that game has no basegame as far as I have played....

And once again this becomes a question of 'believing'. Nobody knows how many people were affected by this bug. But no one can argue there isn't a reason to provider / casino making this change deliberately, especially as no one probably got their money back ....
 

incrediblestuff

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As said, you tagged the right people as far as i know, these questions are not for me to answer, but i would be interested as well.

But just on a comparison: in the real world, money talks, and the show must go on. So there are always ways to make changes 'faster' than they could happen through the usual 'official' channels.

I had bigger wins in the basegame on MT2 than i did in the feature..It's all a matter of perspective/patience

And yes it often comes down to believing. It's all just pieces of paper, watermarks and official virtual seals, who can say if it's all a big lie? Same goes for trusting your government, and media...

Transparancy would be key. 20 years ago me and other members here were still gambling in the wild west. Now at least there's a very serious industry going on. But still very few guarantees you won't get screwed in some way or another..

My tip will always be: if you don't trust the games, stop playing them. Then perhaps try and get to the bottom of it.

Also, if nice gents like Trancemonkey and Halvor say 'this and that' they are usually talking about the companies they work(ed) for, or 'to their knowledge', and people often also say things implying, 'if everything is above water', keep that in mind :)

Anyway, i can't answer anything else but that..
 
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manttih

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.. or the illusion of serious industry! :) all i know is industry people here have said that changes to a game cannot happen without reaudition and that is obviously not true! Question becomes, what else is not true?
 

trancemonkey

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some questions:

- how can such a bug get past the testing, isn't all the games tested thorougly by independent third party?
- also, how can the fix be done in one day? Aren't all games reaudited every time there are changes to the game?
- how many people lost 8€ and was the money returned automatically to them?

@trancemonkey / @Halvor ?
I'll try my best to answer:

1. Quite often testing will not find edge case issues - for example, where changing bets inadvertently causes issues. Yes, code checks are done, but it's not feasible to test every single line of code, nor read it - so tests are often done on one stake to prove the maths are correct. No system is infallible (as this proves).
2. So, without boring you with details, the answer to this would greatly depend on the market / jurisdiction - but my understanding is that most markets will allow you to deploy critical fixes quickly (and then you have to receive the test certificate within a certain time). So you can, in some circumstances, deploy and then test rather then test and then deploy. I can't say what has happened here, as i don't know the ins and outs of the situation
3. Again, this depends on the regulator / jurisdiction and multiple other things BUT where logs can show who was worse off because of the fault, then they should be automatically refunded. The provider should work with the casinos in order to compensate those people.
 

trancemonkey

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< this gives you an overview of the GLI-21 requirements a lot of regulated markets tend to use (there are often local laws which cause differences, but you will get the idea)
 

manttih

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I dont want to sound rude, but changing bet from 0,1e to 8e automatically is NOT edge issue. If infact players were not refunded (apparently OP even asked this from the casino), this is CRITICAL issue. And you can bet that if someone had won anything, the bet would've been voided per 'irregular gambling'. :) so whether i am right or wrong, you do realize this incident had 0 risk for provider/casino.
 

trancemonkey

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I dont want to sound rude, but changing bet from 0,1e to 8e automatically is NOT edge issue. If infact players were not refunded (apparently OP even asked this from the casino), this is CRITICAL issue. And you can bet that if someone had won anything, the bet would've been voided per 'irregular gambling'. :) so whether i am right or wrong, you do realize this incident had 0 risk for provider/casino.
I am not aware of whether test houses run simulations of the games by changing bets whilst playing. They SHOULD do manual play like this, and that SHOULD find most issues like this, but even big companies like ours have issues on site caused by bugs missed by two levels of in house testing AND Test lab testing. If you think testing and code and people are infallible, you're not living in the real world.
 

incrediblestuff

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I dont want to sound rude, but changing bet from 0,1e to 8e automatically is NOT edge issue. If infact players were not refunded (apparently OP even asked this from the casino), this is CRITICAL issue. And you can bet that if someone had won anything, the bet would've been voided per 'irregular gambling'. :) so whether i am right or wrong, you do realize this incident had 0 risk for provider/casino.

I'm fine being quoted and/or addressed, and of course i get notifications on the threads i started myself: i'm not fine with you putting words in my mouth: I didn't say i asked for reimbursement, i said i didn't get any, and i didn't expect any. This was in response to someone that was looking for reimbursement, and your own question...

And to be honest: it was bug that happened a fair bit after the game's initial launch. So the bug assumingly came from whatever update. Not necessarily from the games provider mind you. As i tried to make clear, bugs can happen on many levels, where and when various software platforms integrate and meet. It could be they just updated something to fit their games into a new aggregator software, and then the bug occured. Very unexpected of course, and indeed critical, which is why i made the thread asap. So, yes - a serious issue - but no, not common, thus edge.

Why don't you look into the subject some more, as it seems you have some serious suspicions here? If you were just asking general questions and/or directions as to where to look for more specific answers on a deeper level, a lot could indeed be derived from this forum, thanks to folks such as Trance and Halvor...

Next time perhaps use the appropriate thread, or make your own, there and then, feel free to link to threads such as this, if you're trying to make specific examples - this is much better i.m.o..
 

manttih

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@incrediblestuff sorry if I misquoted you. Your words:

Gutted - to say the least, i immediately contacted chat and elevated the issue to tech, told them to immediately contact the provider and pull the game, because with all the quickspinning loonies out there, myself included, the scenarios could've been much worse, and with that i mean costlier.
*
I certainly didn't get my 8 back, and of course the Casinos and Provider have zero way of seeing who's buy was or was not intentional, apart from players that actually contacted support after experiencing it. Let's hope it was just me

I interpreted you asked for a refund of the bet.

As for the thread thing - this is the thread abount 0.1bet automatically turning to 8€ bet after bonus buy. Isn't it the best place to discuss about this matter here.? :) Especially if other players have experienced the same 'bug' and came to casinomeister especially for this? I can continue this discussion on another thread if you want to?


Why don't you look into the subject some more, as it seems you have some serious suspicions here?

I got to ask, what subject do you mean?
 

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