Atheism, Marxism, and all that other stuff

[mack341]

I know some are fans of Jordan petersen, so here is a video of a debate between jordan, douglas murray and sam harris, about atheism and religion etc.., at 36.06 onwards murray makes the point I was trying to make in my posts, about the atheist marxists in russia, cambodia, china who did the killing and meted out barbaric punishments to others, had no concern of moral repercussions from a religious standpoint.

It is a long video, but there doesn't seem to be a highlights version I like the deeper philosophical ideas put forward here by Jordan, stimulating for the old brain cells, the atheism from sam harris I find stark and mechanistic. Others may find the opposite...

 

[goatwack]

^ Which slot is this?

Looks like something MG would make

 

[trancemonkey]

Atheism will never appeal to everybody, I think you have to accept this.

I would like to think that long after we are all worm food, the world has realised that the notion of a God, or Gods, is pointless. And that everyone throws religion in the bin and just gets on with everyone else by treating them with respect, morality, and happiness. You don't need a God to be a good person.

And whilst you're right, I can't conclusively prove there is no God, there is a mass of evidence that religion is man- made and almost none that proves the existence of God, or a creator.

The whole idea that their must have been a creator because stuff cannot just begin to exist and the big bang is impossible... well that falls apart instantly once you point out that the very same must be true of a creator. Where did they come from? They would also need to have been "made".

 

[Mouche12]

Yeah, the mind-boggling paradox of a God who created himself/herself/itself also applies to one small dot that suddenly arose out of nowhere and created the Big Bang. Where did the energy within the dot come from?

 

[dionysus]

for me, whether a naturally occurring creation or a creator, the fact is, we're still just simply a rather smarter type of monkey, and we're still growing learning and evolving, and as clever as we are, there's still simply things are minds arent yet there enough to comprehend.

I err on the side, of a universe coming come into being rather than a creator - though I'm not anti-creator sentiment; who knows.
I'm anti-'God' and modern religion as I see most as simply early man-made stories in an attempt to try to understand the universe, and contemporary religion simply doesnt hold up to scrutiny

 

[trancemonkey]

Yeah, the mind-boggling paradox of a God who created himself/herself/itself also applies to one small dot that suddenly arose out of nowhere and created the Big Bang. Where did the energy within the dot come from?

Exactly, both ideas suffer from the same problem.

 

[mack341]

The whole idea that their must have been a creator because stuff cannot just begin to exist and the big bang is impossible... well that falls apart instantly once you point out that the very same must be true of a creator. Where did they come from? They would also need to have been "made".

yes this flummoxed me whenever I started to think about a 'god', who created god but apparently in philosophical terms it's not a big deal, I was reading or watching something on that very question the other week, I'll try and fish it out if I have time.

you understand odds and statistics etc... what are the odds [roughly] for a creature to start out hiding in caves and hunting with flints and sticks etc... to end up building space ships and all the technological achievements reached so far?
None of the other creatures/animals that evolved have managed anything like man's achieved.

Also I think the odds for a planet like ours to exist in the first instance, with all the right conditions to sustain so much life etc.. are long, or must be considering the number of planets that don't?

I tend to agree that the religions are man made but that doesn't mean religious or a spiritual thought/impulses are man made and only a result of conditioning, it's been there in us from day one really, what are we doing here etc..

Edit: sorry bloatgoat for the derail

 

[mack341]

Did I actually start this debate oh dear... sorry If it was me who derailed the original toxic slots thread, I think I replied on the determinism vs fatalism /free will topic and then it went on from there to marxism and atheism.

It feels much better now though to have it's own thread Meaning/ spiritual beliefs/ atheism is a fascinating subject, basically the biggest and most important subject ...'and all that other stuff' sums it up nicely, anything 'big' that someone wants to delve into can be discussed here I think ... descartes, sufism, nihilism, etc...they all relate back to the same issues in the end.

 

[DavidShush]

This a twenty day old post of mine David you've left it a bit long, I can't remember the gist of everything that far back and I'm not going to reread it, as it involved a lot of brain ache at the time..it was something to do with free will that's how the discussion started.

The communists were atheists, they had no qualms or worries about any consequences from a god for their actions. They killed a lot of orthodox christian believers and priests etc.. and what I was saying was they wouldn't have done this if they'd been orthodox christians themselves, so 'their' version of atheism [not yours] played a part in the whole tragedy.
As I understand it atheism is a core part of marxism but marxism is not a core part of atheism, that's the nub of it.

The michael sherlock fella you quoted is on record of proclaiming himself proud to be a militant atheist and wanting to promote atheist thinking using militant methods etc..correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Neither militant religion nor atheism appeal to me; and you can't demonstrate god's existence or non existence, it's a mystery. I prefer 'creator' rather than god which conjures up the image of a man with a white beard etc...

In your post you've shoe horned in 2 claims of me using straw men, imagery of trying to fly by jumping out of a window, saying that would be a stupid belief and abuse and the catholic church. All this to make a round about attack on religion through word placement etc..., atheism will never appeal to everybody, I think you have to accept this.

Sorry, been busy. So...people kill people because they have active beliefs in other things/ideals. Atheism as a belief that there are no gods doesn't lead to people killing or more atheistic countries would be vastly different to what we actually see.

People who are atheists can kill and murder, sure, but their atheism plays no part in that. Your claim that because they lack the belief in god they wouldn't kill also doesn't hold up because we see lots of similar examples of people who kill in the name of gods specifically. We can say nobody would have done anything if they'd been "insert active belief in non violence here" but so what? Like I said, you need another step from atheism to get to an active belief for what they did.

"I don't believe in god" doesn't mean I want to kill anyone. There would have to be a reason why I thought killing someone would be acceptable. Would certain religious doctrines be against murder? Of course, but so are secular rational values. Not all atheists are rational. Not all theists are rational. So we could just as easily say "they wouldn't have done this if they'd been rational themselves".

I'm not really fussed with labels like "militant" etc. I'm more interested in what they're saying.

This isn't an attack, this is a challenge. If I say something incorrect then I'd hope someone would have the decency to challenge me so I can learn where I'm going wrong and improve. And if I make a post/claim in a public forum then I think by default I'm opening myself up to being challenged. The other option is to not post it.

Atheism, or at least the "nones" are one of the fastest increasing minorities in USA right now. Which is quite a feat for such a religious country. Obviously in Europe it's less of an issue but numbers are growing, and whilst it may take a while or never reach a majority, I think it's the only honest rational position to take when faced with these questions.

 

[dionysus]

I don't understand why people keep getting this wrong.
Atheism isn't a belief that there are no gods - atheism isn't a belief system at all.

 

[mack341]

No worries, am busy myself atm so likely can't have a big all day discussion

Your claim that because they lack the belief in god they wouldn't kill also doesn't hold up because we see lots of similar examples of people who kill in the name of gods specifically.

No, I was quite careful to say if they russian marxists had been believers in the russian orthodox church they wouldn't have started killing lots of the population who also believed in orthodox christianity, obviously if you have different religions they do at times attack each other in the 'name' of their religion. Most folk accept that is when religion is distorted, the organized religions etc...there's no doubt religion has been abused by kings and leaders to wage wars and killing. [still is happening to this day ]

You can't really unpick the marxist revolutions from their atheism, we could just agree they distorted atheism and wanted to impose it, as part of their marxist beliefs/dogma, and decided they'd have to dismantle any opposing systems of belief. Which is what the militant atheists are attempting to do, belittle and reduce the influence of religion [especially the large organised movements] step by step, the militant atheists in marxist russia went one step further and used violence, in their twisted minds they thought the means justified the ends.

So we could just as easily say "they wouldn't have done this if they'd been rational themselves".

I'm not sure about this, obviously I think they were wicked and evil in their actions but were they acting rationally in accordance to marxism?? Did Marx say you mustn't kill anybody to bring in his system [I tried to read das kapital once and gave up soon after ]
Is marxism rational or illogical?

It's not really a matter of being fussed about militant atheism, it is a reality, I would probably have to reread michael sherlock's articles as to how he envisages it. I think I did read that some atheist scientists had actually attacked richard dawkins [m. sherlock is affliated to him] for his approach re militant atheism. Dawkins is a very disagreeable man so his atheism has had no beneficial affect on his manners.

Church of england believers are pretty harmless, okay so they might not approve of some aspects of modern life, the gay agenda etc.. but that's not enough in my book to warrant destroying the religion.

I tend to think man without god or a spiritual dimension to his life will be more barbaric and selfish, if you think of all the sociopaths/psychopaths and greedy billionaires I doubt they have much belief in a god, contrast that with somebody like mother teresa, all the good things she did etc..

Atheism, or at least the "nones" are one of the fastest increasing minorities in USA right now.

And would you say the morality levels of behaviour are high in the USA, including the politicians and business people?

I do see that atheism could be attractive because some of the obnoxious practices and beliefs that religious believers follow, people kind of want a live and let live approach to life but without religion holding back some of the excesses of human behaviour I think the overall moral behaviour in countries would get worse.

This looks like an interesting video below, in HD too, I might watch it when I've got a chance, I must admit I'm not fully up to speed with the atheist debate as I 've just stuck with my own belief in some sort of creator.

Is the universe a fair place, is there such a thing as universal justice, an atheist I guess would say no, there's ony man made justice...and just thinking on my feet that is another interesting side topic, 'Law' as that was influenced from the religious teachings etc...

 

[mack341]

took this from the american atheist website

"Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

eh?? I'm not too hot on philosophical logic but isn't this nitpicking/weasel words, I thought this bold part sounds more like an agnostic

 

[paul7388]

I do see that atheism could be attractive because some of the obnoxious practices and beliefs that religious believers follow, people kind of want a live and let live approach to life but without religion holding back some of the excesses of human behaviour I think the overall moral behaviour in countries would get worse.

Why do you think that. Look at nearly every country in the world. There is so much morally wrong with them all one way or the other and every one has some sort of religion.

Atheism is not really a choice. Everyone is actually born Atheist God and Religion is something taught to you.

More people are becoming Atheist as you put it for one simple reason. These days with people and the world becoming more advanced people are more inclined to question whether " Gods" are real and less people are now believing in there existence.

Besides depending on Religion there could be loads of gods. What ones are real. Who knows.

But one thing is for sure. I never have and never will believe in a god. But morally i know what is right and wrong i do not need a believe in a god to know that.

 

[paul7388]

I once believed in Santa. Guess what. Once i stopped believing in him i still got presents on christmas day

 

[mack341]

Why do you think that. Look at nearly every country in the world. There is so much morally wrong with them all one way or the other and every one has some sort of religion.

Atheism is not really a choice. Everyone is actually born Atheist God and Religion is something taught to you.

More people are becoming Atheist as you put it for one simple reason. These days with people and the world becoming more advanced people are more inclined to question whether " Gods" are real and less people are now believing in there existence.

Besides depending on Religion there could be loads of gods. What ones are real. Who knows.

But one thing is for sure. I never have and never will believe in a god. But morally i know what is right and wrong i do not need a believe in a god to know that.

Paul being in scotland I expect your experience of the problems religion causes is much greater than mine, the warring sides fighting over whose god is the real one is tiresome, silly and dangerous. But I think there is a spiritual dimension to man and the organised religions have fed on that and distorted it into systems. sectarianism is dreadful, both are supposed to be christian, it's crazy but it goes back to the power of rome and the pope I think, that's where politics mixed with religion. I suppose catholicism is a much more strict approach than C of E.

There could be a creator and no spiritual afterlife or anything, he doesn't want anything to do with us, we're just an entertainment perhaps, the planet a living creation which will unfold. Randomness is another aspect to life, mathematics and chance...It's all a bit too big and complex for my old brain

 

[mack341]

I once believed in Santa. Guess what. Once i stopped believing in him i still got presents on christmas day

I don't know if you have children but would you let them believe in Santa or tell them it's all made up nonsense?

 

[dionysus]

took this from the american atheist website

"Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods."

eh?? I'm not too hot on philosophical logic but isn't this nitpicking/weasel words, I thought this bold part sounds more like an agnostic

it isn't believing there isnt a god
there's no belief there is a god - it isnt about belief at all

one is a theist trying to apply a belief in something or a belief there isnt something on someone, when belief doesnt factor in any way whatsoever

agnotists, generally speaking, feel they don't know, or can't know, one way or the other

it might sounds like semantics but it's a huge difference

 

[paul7388]

I don't know if you have children but would you let them believe in Santa or tell them it's all made up nonsense?

I let them believe in Santa. I would let them believe in God if they so wished as well.

 

[mack341]

Why do you think that. Look at nearly every country in the world. There is so much morally wrong with them all one way or the other and every one has some sort of religion.

But are the ones behaving most immorally, Religious [in the day to day sense not talking about preachers, bishops, immans, rabbis etc..] to give an example wouldn't a rich person who believed in God give more away than one that doesn't?

 

[dionysus]

I don't know if you have children but would you let them believe in Santa or tell them it's all made up nonsense?

id let my kids believe in Santa; there's nothing wrong with developing a creative mind and a questioning mind

i wouldnt care if my kids believed in a god or gods either; id likely explain what others believe and let them determine what they choose, or choose not to, believe

 

[dionysus]

But are the ones behaving most immorally Religious [in the day to day sense not talking about preachers, bishops, immans, rabbis etc..] to give an example wouldn't a rich person who believed in God give more away than one that doesn't?

id say charity, by and large is about making the person giving the money, feel good about themselves (even if theyre as well, trying to do good)
there's very few, id imagine, altruistic people

 

[paul7388]

Paul being in scotland I expect your experience of the problems religion causes is much greater than mine, the warring sides fighting over whose god is the real one is tiresome, silly and dangerous. But I think there is a spiritual dimension to man and the organised religions have fed on that and distorted it into systems. sectarianism is dreadful, both are supposed to be christian, it's crazy but it goes back to the power of rome and the pope I think, that's where politics mixed with religion. I suppose catholicism is a much more strict approach than C of E.

There could be a creator and no spiritual afterlife or anything, he doesn't want anything to do with us, we're just an entertainment perhaps, the planet a living creation which will unfold. Randomness is another aspect to life, mathematics and chance...It's all a bit too big and complex for my old brain

Yes religion and sectarianism is bad in Scotland. But both Catholic and Protestant believe in the same god. Just not the way it is taught.

Although i believe in no God i brought my children up as protestant and let them make their own choices whether they went to church etc.

But don't let anyone kid you. The religious problems in Glasgow have nothing at all to do with belief in God lol.

 

[mack341]

it isn't believing there isnt a god
there's no belief there is a god - it isnt about belief at all

one is a theist trying to apply a belief in something or a belief there isnt something on someone, when belief doesnt factor in any way whatsoever

agnotists, generally speaking, feel they don't know, or can't know, one way or the other

it might sounds like semantics but it's a huge difference

No I still don't get the difference I think you need a more intelligent brain than I've been given to understand it, how can the atheists [esp the militant ones] spread it to others if it isn't a belief/thought system. An atheist surely has an opinion on whether there is a god? If he thinks there is no god then that becomes an affirmative belief [referring back to that bold part of the text]

Are they saying it isn't a belief that there is no god because to them it's a fact instead?

 

[mack341]

Yes religion and sectarianism is bad in Scotland. But both Catholic and Protestant believe in the same god. Just not the way it is taught.

Although i believe in no God i brought my children up as protestant and let them make their own choices whether they went to church etc.

But don't let anyone kid you. The religious problems in Glasgow have nothing at all to do with belief in God lol.

so is it a form of nationalism, identity differences, morality, lifestyle etc..or just a tradition of emnity and hatred which has just gone on and obtained it's own momentum beyond the original causes??

 

[dionysus]

No I still don't get the difference I think you need a more intelligent brain than I've been given to understand it, how can the atheists [esp the militant ones] spread it to others if it isn't a belief/thought system. An atheist surely has an opinion on whether there is a god? If he thinks there is no god then that becomes an affirmative belief [referring back to that bold part of the text]

Are they saying it isn't a belief that there is no god because to them it's a fact instead?

well, take gambling, or sewing, or, i dunno, creative writing
you can share an interest in a topic, discuss it and chill with like-minded people; it doesnt mean you ascribe some sort of belief in those things

i know it's a fine point but there's
A - a person who does not believe in a god or gods vs
B - a person who believes there is no god or gods

atheism is A. It isn't about belief. If made to think about it or question it an atheist would say A, because it isnt any sort of active belief; it isnt an issue in their world at all.
Some however, may find it an interesting point of discussion

 

[mack341]

well, take gambling, or sewing, or, i dunno, creative writing
you can share an interest in a topic, discuss it and chill with like-minded people; it doesnt mean you ascribe some sort of belief in those things

i know it's a fine point but there's
A - a person who does not believe in a god or gods vs
B - a person who believes there is no god or gods

atheism is A. It isn't about belief. If made to think about it or question it an atheist would say A, because it isnt any sort of active belief; it isnt an issue in their world at all.
Some however, may find it an interesting point of discussion

I've nearly got it but not quite, so an atheist is a person who has no active belief in god(s) while having no opinion/belief on whether there is a god? otherwise to them it's like having to have an active belief in the non existence of fairies, it's a non starter, a non question due to absurdity and being made up.

 

[paul7388]

so is it a form of nationalism, identity differences, morality, lifestyle etc..or just a tradition of emnity and hatred which has just gone on and obtained it's own momentum beyond the original causes??

Way too hard to explain.

You would need to google it and read up on it all.

Let's just say things are not as bad as they were. But Glasgow still has seperate schools. Roman Catholics go to Catholic school Others go to what all schools should be non denominational schools.

Two large football teams. One mainly followed by Catholic other by Protestant. A lot of pubs in certain area are one or the other. You try walking into one of them on an old firm night wearing the wrong top you would be lucky to survive and that is not being overdramatic lol.

Still in this day and age there are marches from either religion and the Orange Order is still real strong and those parades can cause a lot of trouble. Personally i got brought up being proud to be Scottish and British and my boy through his own choice plays a flute in a band hence reason i am in Belfast every July.

But a lot of it is stupid. All goes back to the Irish roots. For example at any parade or function my boy is at God save the Queen is always played at the end. Whereas on the other side they would sing F*** the queen. Like i say it is crazy really. But this is just basics and way it is now it goes into no real details why things are like this. You would need to research it all yourself as it would take months to explain it.

But main point is it is same God that both sides follow. Most people get on well with each other here. It is just the real strong Bigoted ones that have hatred. Their are still some people that would disown their son for example if they said they were marrying a catholic and would refuse to set foot in a chapel and vice versa. Not many like that now but still some that will never change.

 

[dionysus]

If you're looking to compare atheism to agnostism, you can think of it this way
The atheist doesnt wake up and think about whether theres a god(s) because it isnt any sort of factor in their life whereas a theist has an active belief in the divine. An atheist would probably only refer to themselves as an atheist as a point of reference to theistic beliefs; the same way a heterosexual male probably wouldnt otherwise wake up and think about heterosexuality; it only comes about to differentiate from not being a homosexual if a point of comparison were required. There was no word for heterosexual until homosexual became a word

An agnostic can possibly be described to have a belief, but probably more accurate to say a view - that one doesnt or cannot know if there is a god(s). ie I don't think there's one one, but who knows, maybe there's a creator or higher power, but I wouldnt say it has a white beard and handed out commandments

 

[dionysus]

I've nearly got it but not quite, so an atheist is a person who has no active belief in god(s) while having no opinion/belief on whether there is a god? otherwise to them it's like having to have an active belief in the non existence of fairies, it's a non starter, a non question due to absurdity and being made up.

well, atheists would as likely have an opinion on it as on any subject, if made or asked to draw an opinion.
And by the way, the way a Christian isnt a Christian isnt a Christian, all atheists couldnt be describe in absolutely the same way; im speaking broadly

 

[dionysus]

paganism is a little easier and falls closer to agnostism - it likely involves an element of belief - ie belief in gods or higher beings or spitual things
i think though, the spectrum is as broad as theism (and likely involves some theism) - im not as well-versed here

I straddle the line between atheist/agnostic but grew up in a christian household with a minister for a brother

 

[paul7388]

I've nearly got it but not quite, so an atheist is a person who has no active belief in god(s) while having no opinion/belief on whether there is a god? otherwise to them it's like having to have an active belief in the non existence of fairies, it's a non starter, a non question due to absurdity and being made up.

You are over thinking stuff.

I do not believe in a god but i would still have an opinion on it which would be people that believe in them are wrong but it is their own choice.

Take this thread for instance. I only state i do not believe in God as it is being asked. But if noone ever mentioned God i would carry on my life till i died without ever thinking about it.

 

[mack341]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action and enjoyment.

 

[dionysus]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action.

I actually consider myself highly moral - even to the detrement of myself and find a lot of theists use theism as a way to excuse bad doings because of absolution

 

[mack341]

I straddle the line between atheist/agnostic but grew up in a christian household with a minister for a brother

blimey, you have lived close to the issues! some of my family have been into the church in quite a big way and they tend to be a bit distant and wrapped up in the church and missing what's going on around them, and can only think in relation to the bible verse, 'what does the bible say about this problem' is their immediate train of thought etc..

 

[dionysus]

blimey, you have lived close to the issues! some of my family have been into the church in quite a big way and they tend to be a bit distant and wrapped up in the church and missing what's going on around them, and can only think in relation to the bible verse, 'what does the bible say about this problem' is their immediate train of thought etc..

i consider myself a pragmatic (with a dose of optimism)
I really don't have an issue with faith - if it serves you well to be happy and tolerant, power to you; ive more faith (or often, lack of) in people and my abilities

 

[paul7388]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action.

But Religion has no bearing on anything. People are either good or bad . I would say Morally i am strong and certainly know what is right and wrong. My conscience and guilt would be the same. I would have to live with consequences in my own mind not whether some God disliked my actions.

Seriously if you looked at most crimes and prisons you will find many were commited by religious people. Why else do prisons have Chaplains and Priests.
You seriously think someone that is going to do something wrong will be held back by thinking would god agree lol.

 

[dionysus]

You seriously think someone that is going to do something wrong will be held back by thinking would god agree lol.

and often done because believed to be righteous or justified

 

[dionysus]

as paul says, you're likely overthinking it
and it can often be a good debate if approcahed philosophically, but rarely occurs when faith is involved because the counter-argument too often can be 'well, I believe so, because of faith' which doesnt require any kind of logical justification; that's rather what faith is

it's like rigged threads if rigged camp were theists and non-rigged were atheists
side A: I believe slots are rigged. It's a feeling I have
side B: they arent, and here's why....x, y, z
side A: cool, well, I still believe theyre rigged anyway

always makes for interesting discussions but generally heated

either way, I'm stepping out, lest it comes to that

 

[trancemonkey]

My problem with atheism is it's a reduction of possibilities, I find it depressing. I think there could be an aspect to some atheists [not yourself or anyone on this forum] wanting to be able to act in a totally guilt free way and they resent morality impeding their scope of action and enjoyment.

I have a real problem with this, and I think this way of thinking you show proves why religion is bad.

Religion has absolutely nothing to do with morality. There are many, many people who do horrendous things in the name of religion. There are also non-religious people who do bad things, but not in the name of religion.
You sound like you have been religiously brainwashed in to believing that you can only be good with religion in your life, which is just utter crap.

All of those people should know right from wrong... are you seriously suggesting that people only avoid doing bad things because they fear being judged by God?!

I sont do bad things because a) I dont want to b) because I care what other people think and c) because it's illegal/immoral. It has nothing to do with a God.

In act, I would argue the opposite is true. If someone religious does something bad, they ask their God for forgiveness, and then they believe they are forgiven. I do not have that luxury... if I do something bad, I have to live with that guilt.

And atheism is not a reduction in possibilities any more than Muslim is. Atheists just believe in one less God than people of any other religion.

The whole concept of God is flawed anyway... so many things in the Bible are demonstrably false, barbaric, morally inept and scientifically inaccurate. And yet people just say "oh, that bit? Yeah, that was just symbolic. Not factual."

I mean, that's just a BS argument...

 

[pinnit2014]

Thread should have a spoiler warning re Santa - kids could be reading.

 

[dionysus]

Thread should have a spoiler warning re Santa - kids could be reading.

lol, if they are, wait til they see the C word poppin up

 

[mack341]

I have a real problem with this, and I think this way of thinking you show proves why religion is bad.

Religion has absolutely nothing to do with morality. There are many, many people who do horrendous things in the name of religion. There are also non-religious people who do bad things, but not in the name of religion.
You sound like you have been religiously brainwashed in to believing that you can only be good with religion in your life, which is just utter crap.

All of those people should know right from wrong... are you seriously suggesting that people only avoid doing bad things because they fear being judged by God?!

I sont do bad things because a) I dont want to b) because I care what other people think and c) because it's illegal/immoral. It has nothing to do with a God.

In act, I would argue the opposite is true. If someone religious does something bad, they ask their God for forgiveness, and then they believe they are forgiven. I do not have that luxury... if I do something bad, I have to live with that guilt.

And atheism is not a reduction in possibilities any more than Muslim is. Atheists just believe in one less God than people of any other religion.

The whole concept of God is flawed anyway... so many things in the Bible are demonstrably false, barbaric, morally inept and scientifically inaccurate. And yet people just say "oh, that bit? Yeah, that was just symbolic. Not factual."

I mean, that's just a BS argument...

calm down, calm down easy fella I wasn't meaning a reduction of possibilities to one's general life, the small scale, but that was about the large scale; an intelligent creator or force creating the universe is far more interesting to me than just a universe of random 'matter' colliding. If you take away the idea / belief in a creator you're by definition reducing a big possibility.

where's all this "You sound like you have been religiously brainwashed" coming from?

If someone religious does something bad, they ask their God for forgiveness, and then they believe they are forgiven.

not sure about this, catholics go to confession etc.. I'm not 100% certain what happens there, I would say most religious people would 'hope' they're forgiven. But the way you've written that its conjuring up a very simplistic process.

On earlier claims that I'd been overthinking what atheism means or entails, its not quite as simple a concept as I thought, and there are masses of articles and webpages devoted to the argument/discussion of whether atheism is a belief itself, if it is then it requires proof but the problem is you cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

So it falls back to a non belief, but for a non belief it creates a heck of a lot activity/activism, and seems to resemble a belief/idea which the militant atheists want to spread and influence others on. It's not a passive thing that they keep to themselves, and in that way they are behaving similar to religious preachers trying to convert people to their way of thinking.

I was very pleased and surprised to find that some of the points I was tentatively trying to raise earlier are actually raised brilliantly and powerfully by Peter Hitchens in an address to the oxford Union:




Also this interview with brendan O'neill is very interesting, at 4.02 onwards they touch upon whether atheism is just a passive non belief in god(s) or something more active

 

[trancemonkey]

calm down, calm down easy fella I wasn't meaning a reduction of possibilities to one's general life, the small scale, but that was about the large scale; an intelligent creator or force creating the universe is far more interesting to me than just a universe of random 'matter' colliding. If you take away the idea / belief in a creator you're by definition reducing a big possibility.

No you aren't at all, you are opening up the questions of how all this came to exist if the big bang theory is correct. You are opening up a huge conundrum that science hasnt yet figured out. And nor has religion.

So I would disagree quite strongly. The idea of God is purely a proxy for "what we don't understand". There used to be God's of fire, water, etc.. No one needs those any more because we now know exactly what causes fire and water.

 

[paul7388]

I will leave you to it mack .

I really do not see what you are trying to get by doing all this research online about atheism and what it means.

Again it only creates a big deal as people that believe in God make such a fuss about it. Non believers would have no need to even mention that fact if God was not constantly mentioned.

Damn i have been issued the idle threat a few times by some that i would go to hell for not believing. Like seriously as i don't believe in God i am hardly fearing going to hell lol.

But hope you find your answers in those videos you are searching. By your reckoning elves , aliens , ghosts , loch ness monster could all exist as noone can prove they don't.

Really it is simple. People have a choice to not believe in a God it makes them no less a person or morally wrong. Same as in my opinion someone who needs to look to a fictional being for guidance , and to help get them through the day has the choice to do so. If someone needs the idea that something is there to answer their prayers or gets comfort in praying to something they do not know exists then so be it.

 

[mack341]

No you aren't at all, you are opening up the questions of how all this came to exist if the big bang theory is correct. You are opening up a huge conundrum that science hasnt yet figured out. And nor has religion.

So I would disagree quite strongly. The idea of God is purely a proxy for "what we don't understand". There used to be God's of fire, water, etc.. No one needs those any more because we now know exactly what causes fire and water.

I still can't see what you are disagreeing strongly with, I was not talking about whether the existence of god is true or false, I was just saying for myself I find atheism depressing, as you're left only with the atheistic meaning of life. Which is what exactly, enjoy yourself as much as possible as you'll be brown bread soon??

How can taking away God or a creator/ intelligent creative force not be reducing the possibilities of the meaning to life?

 

[paul7388]

I still can't see what you are disagreeing strongly with, I was not talking about whether the existence of god is true or false, I was just saying for myself I find atheism depressing, as you're left only with the atheistic meaning of life. Which is what exactly, enjoy yourself as much as possible as you'll be brown bread soon??

How can taking away God or a creator/ intelligent creative force not be reducing the possibilities of the meaning to life?

Definitely my last post on this lol.

Look at that from the other side. Some would say that someone that cannot get by without having to need and pray to a god for existence is exactly what you described.
You could say why can people not just enjoy life and make most out of it without the need to worship an idol of some sort.

 

[TheAddict]

FFS Mack. Will you just STOP procrastinating and get on with those damn chores! ;p

 

[mack341]

Definitely my last post on this lol.

Look at that from the other side. Some would say that someone that cannot get by without having to need and pray to a god for existence is exactly what you described.
You could say why can people not just enjoy life and make most out of it without the need to worship an idol of some sort.

The thing is I don't pray and worship not in the conventional sense, saying that I do sometimes I pray for GOLD to drop in it still never does

I will leave you to it mack .

I really do not see what you are trying to get by doing all this research online about atheism and what it means.

I haven't really done much research to be honest, just 15 mins browsing on google, it's not a subject I'm particularly interested in, if I was a committed christian or muslim then that would be different as they feel their faith is under attack.
David replied earlier and the discussion took off again, I do seem to be getting attacked for posting very mild talking points

The topic of nihilism popped up in my head earlier as the nihilists had no belief in god etc.. but I daren't post anything else now for causing further unintended offence

 

[mack341]

FFS Mack. Will you just STOP procrastinating and get on with those damn chores! ;p

I managed a bit of work today but not enough, David's post was all the excuse I needed to have a sit down for 3 hours

 

[paul7388]

The thing is I don't pray and worship not in the conventional sense, saying that I do sometimes I pray for GOLD to drop in it still never does



I haven't really done much research to be honest, just 15 mins browsing on google, it's not a subject I'm particularly interested in, if I was a committed christian or muslim then that would be different as they feel their faith is under attack.
David replied earlier and the discussion took off again, I do seem to be getting attacked for posting very mild talking points

The topic of nihilism popped up in my head earlier as the nihilists had no belief in god etc.. but I daren't post anything else now for causing further unintended offence

Believe me you have not caused me any offence. Like i said people are entitled to different views . More just wondering why you were looking for so many answers about atheism. Way i look at it is i live my life. It is good or bad would be no different if i had a god in it.

But anyway i don't think you will have offended anyone on here certainly not me so post what you feel needs answered. Then again i am one of those people that is not easily offended by anything posted online unless it is something sick. Maybe that's caused by my lack of religion