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bebo67 said:
At the risk of sounding redundant, and myself being too lazy to go through all the comments :) How is it possible for one game, two different casinos, same hypothetical RTP, have such gross differences in game play?
Click to expand...
randomness? I mean, rtp is calculated over billions of spins so you should expect variations in gameplay - ie good sessions v poor sessions

add to that, dependant upon the game, one casino may have opted for a lower rtp version of a slot if made available
 
dionysus said:
randomness? I mean, rtp is calculated over billions of spins so you should expect variations in gameplay - ie good sessions v poor sessions

add to that, dependant upon the game, one casino may have opted for a lower rtp version of a slot if made available
Click to expand...
One would think that, but the play time on the same game between the two casinos, is blatantly noticeable. And it just isnt sometimes. And they both show the same rtp. I'm wondering if certain games are player dependent for the outcome? In other words, casino "a" has more players on that game than casino "b" , there fore casino" a" would have crappy play time?
 
bebo67 said:
I'm wondering if certain games are player dependent for the outcome? In other words, casino "a" has more players on that game than casino "b" , there fore casino" a" would have crappy play time?
Click to expand...
it would have no bearing for several reasons
1. the slot has no memory (take aside saving levels, accomplishments, saved elements for bonuses - already addressed in AMA)
2. the trillions of possible cycles between one event and the next, irrespective of which casino
i know we all 'feel' this way - so the best advice, is simply play at the casino you feel most comfortable/most lucky at (and that treats you best)
 
bebo67 said:
At the risk of sounding redundant, and myself being too lazy to go through all the comments :) How is it possible for one game, two different casinos, same hypothetical RTP, have such gross differences in game play?
Click to expand...

Do i get a prize if i can guess the slot and casino in question lol:p
 
dionysus said:
it would have no bearing for several reasons
1. the slot has no memory (take aside saving levels, accomplishments, saved elements for bonuses - already addressed in AMA)
2. the trillions of possible cycles between one event and the next, irrespective of which casino
i know we all 'feel' this way - so the best advice, is simply play at the casino you feel most comfortable/most lucky at (and that treats you best)
Click to expand...
Lol. They both do! :P
 
bebo67 said:
Lol. They both do! :p
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if said casino is the one we/I suspect - I've had MORE luck there past several deposits than any in well...years, to the tune of 4k this month - but I know it isnt the casino, but a bout of luck which given nature and time, will turn sour
 
dionysus said:
@trancemonkey I know many people feel games have been gimped or altered, and we know casinos cant tweak outcomes inassofar as willy-nilly change rtp

my Q - in your experience, how often are games taken back by the developers to tweak/alter, for example...a big ol' 'd'oh' shit we misread that, and bring the game back for alterations (gimping) - surely, there's been occasions where people (creative not player side) realized the game needs a-fixing
Click to expand...

Indeed... games can often be reworked due to poor performance or just because the players have found a fault that the testers didn't find.
 
bebo67 said:
At the risk of sounding redundant, and myself being too lazy to go through all the comments :) How is it possible for one game, two different casinos, same hypothetical RTP, have such gross differences in game play?
Click to expand...

Over a short period of play anything is possible.... if you came to my office and played a new game I'm working on you would swear it was schizophrenic with how it changes
 
TheresNoDInBonanza said:
@trancemonkey - your close family friend tells you their kid has started gambling online. How do you advise?
Click to expand...

Well if the kid is underage then clearly find a way to stop them. If they aren't then make it clear that they should only ever spend money they can afford to lose and that it is entertainment they are buying - it is not a way to make money. Teach them to be responsible in their gambling and don't watch streamers because they show unrealistic expectations of winning at huge bet sizes.

Not really much else you can say if they are old enough... just be sensible and understand the mess you can get in to.
 
trancemonkey said:
Not this year mate... sorry :(
Click to expand...

That's o.k. thought I would check. :)

But if Aristocrat is dropping the ball and not making another walking dead slot maybe IGT can pick it up. Also my local got Cleopatra Gold, Is that one of your makings? Cause I won on it and actually enjoyed an IGT game. Defo going to play it again.:D
 
Hi @trancemonkey - with lightning link and other similar local jackpots I've heard it said that they chose when the jackpot will go off, eg. After a jackpot is won it then picks a value from 100-500 (eg. $248.65) and when the jackpot counter finally accumulates to that value the jackpot is triggered.

Is this factual in any jackpot game you've known of?
 
TheresNoDInBonanza said:
Hi @trancemonkey - with lightning link and other similar local jackpots I've heard it said that they chose when the jackpot will go off, eg. After a jackpot is won it then picks a value from 100-500 (eg. $248.65) and when the jackpot counter finally accumulates to that value the jackpot is triggered.

Is this factual in any jackpot game you've known of?
Click to expand...

Actually, I think the walking dead 2 slot does this, Or it feels that way where it has picked a value. Same with Zeus 3 or slots with a win must by value, think the system already has the number picked out.
 
TheresNoDInBonanza said:
Hi @trancemonkey - with lightning link and other similar local jackpots I've heard it said that they chose when the jackpot will go off, eg. After a jackpot is won it then picks a value from 100-500 (eg. $248.65) and when the jackpot counter finally accumulates to that value the jackpot is triggered.

Is this factual in any jackpot game you've known of?
Click to expand...

Slotmaster is right... "Must hit by" progressives can work that way, but Lightning Link certainly doesn't to my knowledge. I certainly have never pre-chosen a value for a progressive pot to drop at...
 
Hey Trancemonkey,

Last week we held a private slots tournament in a local casino.
In the tournament we had a starting balance of 10,000 "credits" each, playing novomatics.
From the second round and onwards, no players ever went far below 10,000 and large wins were extremely frequent, I have never seen anything quite like the hit frequence even in online games.

So the question is, can land based casinos change the RTP massively in the players favor as long as it's not real money play?
Cause this is frowned upon online with play money, but in the tournament, even though play money was used during play, the winnings of the tournament were very real.
 
4048 said:
Hey Trancemonkey,

Last week we held a private slots tournament in a local casino.
In the tournament we had a starting balance of 10,000 "credits" each, playing novomatics.
From the second round and onwards, no players ever went far below 10,000 and large wins were extremely frequent, I have never seen anything quite like the hit frequence even in online games.

So the question is, can land based casinos change the RTP massively in the players favor as long as it's not real money play?
Cause this is frowned upon online with play money, but in the tournament, even though play money was used during play, the winnings of the tournament were very real.
Click to expand...

What games did they use?
 
I am not 100% sure here but I don't think there is a requirement in most of the rest of the world for Tournament play to run on true RTP's. I also don't know if Novo do special tournament or free play software. Some companies do do "show" software which runs very high and is used at trade shows but again I don't know if those are used for tournament play...

There is also a LOT of illegal Novo software around in certain parts of the world so I don't know where you are playing...
 
trancemonkey said:
I am not 100% sure here but I don't think there is a requirement in most of the rest of the world for Tournament play to run on true RTP's. I also don't know if Novo do special tournament or free play software. Some companies do do "show" software which runs very high and is used at trade shows but again I don't know if those are used for tournament play...

There is also a LOT of illegal Novo software around in certain parts of the world so I don't know where you are playing...
Click to expand...
At Casino Malta in, you guessed it, Malta.

I have no reason to believe the software is fake I just think they were running tournament RTP and wasn't sure if that really was a thing.
 
Hi TranceMonkey, great thread.

Perhaps this question was already asked long ago, but even if so, another clarification would certainly help please.

In most slots we have up to 3 parameters we the players can tune: coin value, number of coins and the number of lines. It's interesting and important IMHO to know how they influence RTP and variance. In my view, that's the normal, about 90% cases scenario:
1. The coin value simply changes the total stake, without influencing the RTP or variance, except for the obvious fact that playing GBP 100 per coin would yield MUCH larger variance than playing the same slot 0.01 per coin, but the variance would change linearly-proportionally with that change, in this case 10K times, which is natural and obvious, the same as changing bet size on roulette.
Exception: some games give higher RTP for BIG BETS, and they clearly state it in their help files - so far so good, this parameter is quite simple.
2. Number of coins (sometimes referred as "bet level", e.g. in Bloodsuckers): in my view, in most cases it acts similarly to the coin value, only changing proportionally the total bet size and variance (like in Bloodsuckers, IMHO), without changing the RTP whatsoever, unless specifically mentioned in the game payout/help file: e.g. Jackpot 6000 pays a much higher RTP if played with max coins, and there are plenty of other such slots and even videopokers like Jacks or better. Generally speaking, it's usually preferable to play with max coins, since it never lowers the RTP and sometimes increases it, drastically in cases like Jackpot 6000.
3. Number of lines/bet ways. In my view, it too shouldn't usually alter the RTP, but the more lines the lower the variance (relative to the same overall bet size), e.g. a bet of 1 coin valued 0.01 with 20 lines (overall 0.2) would have a lower (perhaps even much lower) variance, than a bet with 10 coins valued 0.02 with 1 line (given usually the same RTP with the changed number of coins), or a bet with 2 coins valued 0.1 with 1 line. Right?
Unless in some specific slots again we have exceptions (which should be documented in the game's help/payout file), and so I've seen a few slots described as:
93.8% to 96.7%. The more lines are played, the higher the RTP.
95.3% to 96.9%. The more bet ways are played, the higher the RTP.

If you could, please give your insights on this and correct me where I'm wrong. And if you could, please explain it using for example the fun Rival game of Cosmic Quest Ep. 2, IMHO it goes the standard way: RTP never changes when changing the 3 parameters and only the lines amount influences inversely the variance - more lines = less variance.

Thanks anyway and please continue this great thread!
 
Normally neither coin size, line bet or line count makes any difference to the RTP. Games that state ranges (without explaining why) normally do that because there is a range of RTPs the operators can select.

You're right about variance though. Reducing lines makes the game more volatile.
 
I just dont understand, how i can go from 100 euro up to 2500, and have a negative trend on ANY slot in the same casino. Wether that's 10 euro down to 1 euro a spin, it's all the same. If slots where random, how is this possible? I think i just watched over 750 spins before i blew out of the 2500. This makes me think that there's one big central thing who decides (randomly, lol) who wins and who wins not. Am i right? How could one make 750 spins and not get a decent win out of that?

Online slots are bullshit.
 
Bloatgoat said:
I just dont understand, how i can go from 100 euro up to 2500, and have a negative trend on ANY slot in the same casino. Wether that's 10 euro down to 1 euro a spin, it's all the same. If slots where random, how is this possible? I think i just watched over 750 spins before i blew out of the 2500. This makes me think that there's one big central thing who decides (randomly, lol) who wins and who wins not. Am i right? How could one make 750 spins and not get a decent win out of that?

Online slots are bullshit.
Click to expand...

As I've said repeatedly... if slots were rigged, do you honestly think they would be rigged to feel that bad for that long?
 
Bloatgoat said:
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Good article. Makes sense. Scumbags.
Click to expand...

Hahaha... That's the biggest pile of ranty bullshit I've ever read. But at least it amused me :)

Come on matey... dont do the whole "I read it on the internet so it must be true" (but only if it backs up my belief)

Why is it a good article? It doesn't contain any facts. It contains no proof. It's just a rant. A rant made of lies and untruths.
 
Last edited:
goatwack said:
I'm showing solidarity for the goat that is bloated

#goatstogether
Click to expand...

I feel a new member called Bloatwack may appear soon ;)

#goatbaby
 
goatwack said:
I'm showing solidarity for the goat that is bloated

#goatstogether
Click to expand...

Bweeeeeeehh.



trancemonkey said:
Hahaha... That's the biggest pile of ranty bullshit I've ever read. But at least it amused me :)

Come on matey... dont do the whole "I read it on the internet so it must be true" (but only if it backs up my belief)

Why is it a good article? It doesn't contain any facts. It contains no proof. It's just a rant. A rant made of lies and untruths.
Click to expand...

Not to insult your profession of making slots and attaching algorthems, but is'nt that exactly what every casino wants? Hook and keep players playing just enough ? They have such a huge big-data pool of millions of players. They could change the way players win / lose and toss this on a big pile and still have all the "RTP" numbers correct. I'm not sure how to say this. But personally i dislike, the whole server sided idea of gaming. Why cant we just play a slot as it was designed with a slot having it's own RTP or 'game' in that matter?

- Because all these numbers make accountants feel rich and it looks good on yearly presentations obviously. The gambling has evolved from single slot machines to server sided gaming where one could say oh yeah the winnings must be bigger then since your playing world wide... Well i dont believe it. I've tossed over 2500 into a casino and still get a bad outcome or still stick at exactly what i depositted. I mean if i go into landbased, things are completely different. Online calculate's their RTP over a 1.5 billion spins. Landbased over just a 100.000 or so. Online can take weeks before it even starts to spit out winnings, landbased perhaps 3 days.

You might say it's nonsense the article, but i think it's pretty solid, that i am not the only one on the net feeling like this. How many players depositted so much money into slots and eventually lose it all? Man. I've seen people goto jail for stealing money from the company they work. This one particular case was a guy who booked 4x 300.000 euro, and lost it all on slots. Well if i would have a bankroll over over 1.2 million i think i would see a return at some point right? well the guy did'nt.
 
Duh; but the question is if it's even fair or no. Yes they all hide behind their magical, (T)RTP numbers, but they could twist, manipulate and turn it around so that it on paper LOOKS OK but our playing experience is extremely worse.
 
I have a question relating to compensated cat C or B3 games.

I had a situation on an SG community game this week, I got a jackpot on the base game for £100 jackpot, the other unit triggered the community bonus at exactly the same time.

So I got a jackpot and it repeated and then it said press start to enter community, which paid £60.

Is it compliant that a machine can pay the maximum prize, whilst on the same screen after that win and the repeat to press start for the bonus.

I have also had this happen on a £500 jackpot. I gambled to £500 and the very next spin HAD to award a pot.

It’s kind of like when they had to update Party Time Double Decker as if it spun JP in on the bottom section you knew it had to give at least another win on the top deck on 50p.

How strict are these situations regulated?

Rob :)
 
JGslots said:
I have a question relating to compensated cat C or B3 games.

I had a situation on an SG community game this week, I got a jackpot on the base game for £100 jackpot, the other unit triggered the community bonus at exactly the same time.

So I got a jackpot and it repeated and then it said press start to enter community, which paid £60.

Is it compliant that a machine can pay the maximum prize, whilst on the same screen after that win and the repeat to press start for the bonus.

I have also had this happen on a £500 jackpot. I gambled to £500 and the very next spin HAD to award a pot.

It’s kind of like when they had to update Party Time Double Decker as if it spun JP in on the bottom section you knew it had to give at least another win on the top deck on 50p.

How strict are these situations regulated?

Rob :)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what situation you think is wrong... all the prizes are paid out on separate credits so there is nothing non-compliant going on. In fact, what you describe is exactly what needs to happen.
 
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