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I don't think I've ever argued it is crystal clear.. but in regulated jurisdictions, the tin-foil hattery brigade are very wide of the mark.
Ask me anything (about slots)!
- Thread starter trancemonkey
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I don't think I've ever argued it is crystal clear.. but in regulated jurisdictions, the tin-foil hattery brigade are very wide of the mark.
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Sorry Bloatgoat but your entire post just goes to show how little you know about the online / land based markets.
Slots, whether server based or not, are doing exactly what you say they should. It has its own "RTP" AND works exactly as landbased games do. Did you know that there are many land-based jurisdictions that require the result to come from a central system? So that's the first thing you have got wrong and / or misunderstood.
Secondly, and I have no idea where you have got this incorrect information from, but you state that landbased games are calculated "over 100,000 games and online over 1.5million". This is pure garbage. Whether online or land-based, it is totally dependent on how the maths is done as to how big the cycle is to calculate it. I've done land-based slots that are calculated over 4 billion games to get the exact RTP. I've also done simple reel band based games where it's just a few million. But it's irrelevant - the market has no impact on the cycle or the game unless it's a market where the RTP HAS to be calculated over shorter cycles, but there aren't many of those and none of them are online.
And to say "someone gambled 4 x 300k and lost therefore it's rigged" is stupid. Of course you will lose eventually... And what were his stakes? Over how long?
You also can't just say "I agree with the article therefore it's true"... That's a ridiculous stance. If you agree with a flat earth video, it doesn't make the earth flat - it's still a globe. Gambling is a dangerous past time because you will all lose eventually - and sometimes we have bad experiences and sometimes good ones. And when it goes bad we like to think that it wasn't luck - it was some scummy casino manager pressing a "lose everything" button because somehow that's easier to comprehend than it just being luck.
TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
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- Australia
Rather; it's easier than admitting it was through your own actions.
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- south east england
Trance is it possible at a ukgc bookmaker casino to use autoplay on a slot and not have to enter a loss limit?
edit: just to add I think the game in question [cats] was regulated by the alderney gambling commission
edit: just to add I think the game in question [cats] was regulated by the alderney gambling commission
Last edited:
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- United Kingdom
I believe that any games with old style autoplay functionality should not be customer facing.
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- May 22, 2012
I've seen some crap online in my time, but there's enough bullshit in that drivelling 'article' to fertilize the whole North American prairie.
- Joined
- May 8, 2018
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- south east england
oh right it's not a big deal then just probably a blip, I didn't realise as a uk based player on a uk bookmakers site a game that you can play would be regulated by Alderney, and to be honest wasn't really aware of this commission based on the channel island. I wonder why there's a need for all these different commissions, IOM, Alderney etc..
BabylonBear
Dormant Account
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- Jan 14, 2019
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- London
I'm curious about the implementation of reels in reel-based games.
Is there really a fixed array of symbols somewhere, and a "spin" chooses an actual integer position along this predetermined reel, and displays 3 or 5 consecutive symbols on this array? Or is it the case that the symbols on the reel are completely randomized on demand?
I am also curious about the way in which payouts are calculated. Is it the case that the reels are independently random, and then a score is calculated based on the lines and rules of the game? Or, is it the case that you work backward: a payout is selected from a payout table, and then a series of images is placed in a configuration which matches that payout? The former is obviously easier to implement, but the latter is still quite easily doable and gives significantly more control over the pay table and payout distribution.
Is there really a fixed array of symbols somewhere, and a "spin" chooses an actual integer position along this predetermined reel, and displays 3 or 5 consecutive symbols on this array? Or is it the case that the symbols on the reel are completely randomized on demand?
I am also curious about the way in which payouts are calculated. Is it the case that the reels are independently random, and then a score is calculated based on the lines and rules of the game? Or, is it the case that you work backward: a payout is selected from a payout table, and then a series of images is placed in a configuration which matches that payout? The former is obviously easier to implement, but the latter is still quite easily doable and gives significantly more control over the pay table and payout distribution.
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Sorry, got banned, but anyway, here's my shot. They changed the gaming over to serversided gaming, everything is being piled on both landbased and online. It's more 'safer' for the casino's and stricter control. This does'nt mean that the RTP or some shit changed, it's just that they shifted from stand-alone to a central system. It's difficult to find a independent slot on any casino these days. Prove me incorrect.
Sorry again, it was a mistype, i did'nt mean 100.000 but more in the millions. While a RTP test might pass, the difference in between online and landbased is extremely huge. Why 1.5 billion spins in the first place? It seems to me that online is blown into obvlion when it comes to having a fair chance. I am not here to defend landbased, but i far had better succes in Landbased then any other online casino. Oh yeah, a one time 100 spins on a 20 euro bet on a game called Zeus. 10k. When i calculated the withdrawl vs deposits, i pretty much came straight again.
When i compare my winnings in a landbased casino, sorry, best day 17k. Won a brand new car. Won a holliday cheque of over 7500 euro. Left the casino's 7 out of 10 times with profit because i had a working gameplan constructed over the course of time. I cannot reproduce this as i believe that online casino's have hammered themself in with all sorts of math and shit to protect their stealing business from people running away with too much money.
The quote i reffered to about the guy who lost 4x 300.000 euro was from someone working at a water company in Holland. He managed to commit fraude and booked himself 4x 300.000 euro onto his bank account. He blew all that pretty much away on online slots. If anyone had a bankrol of over 1.2 million euro woud'nt that give a straight fair chance at winning in millions as well?
No. And there was nobody from the online casino who asked or said, hey, this 300.000 euro that you've bin spending the last couple of weeks/months, is'nt that way out of your league? They dont give a rats ass! Sorry to tell you! Greedy business full class here. A landbased casino recently picked out a woman who was bragging about the access to alot of money she pretended to had. This money was from a care company since she was a director, and obviously not her money. The casino gave her a ban for at least a year, knowing this is a case that could lead into problems.
See the difference here? I can give a link or 10 or so with simular cases as well that the online business simply stinks. It's lose from your profession as a slot designer; you have the game provider licencing games from you or the business you are within. But this online casino needs a better regulation and not one with licences in country's that nobody ever heard of.
I'm sorry man. I'm no longer enjoying any of these stupid online slots. It seems like i'm playing not on a RNG system but on what i wager. My outcome seems like already determined the moment i depositted. Hows that even fair? Yeah their numbers are obviously crafted in such a way that it always seems right for the game provider and / or casino's yes. Player gets screwed anyway.
I'd advise anyone to head over to a local casino and give a try to there. Compare that to your online experiences. Even tho a lower RTP i'm pretty sure that the chances of winning big is equal or even better. And you can actually walk away with the advantage of having the money directly in your pocket vs 3 to 5 business days payout. Or whatever excuse they could think of to stall your payment this time ....
TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
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- Apr 2, 2018
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- Australia
I get shafted way worse at land based, as you'd expect with the lower rtp.
Also lol, of course you had a system...
Anyone suggesting rtp should run on a local machine instead of being handed off to a server clearly has no idea about the most fundamental concepts of how a slot works. I doubt very much there was ever an online slot that relied on a local RNG.
Also lol, of course you had a system...
Anyone suggesting rtp should run on a local machine instead of being handed off to a server clearly has no idea about the most fundamental concepts of how a slot works. I doubt very much there was ever an online slot that relied on a local RNG.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2017
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- United kingdom
I almost never play land-based casino slots. But regarding an online casino, I have noticed that if I win a good multiplier on any of providers slot (for example NYX,NetEnt).
Then for the next 3-4 weeks, it will eat my balance like crazy! And no matter at which online casino I will play.
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
I can't comment on your own personal experiences - if you think that online is worse then that's your opinion. However, please stop these ridiculous assertions that online ans land based games are somehow different in structure or cycle or whatever. It's entirely down to the game design and nothing to so with what market it's in.
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Online slots can't rely on a local RNG as then it could easily be hacked... it has to work on a server/client system.
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- Mar 29, 2013
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That's because they are all compenriggedensated. We work with every other competitor, at great expense, complexity and illegality, to make sure that you have a terrible playing experience.
It's genius....
PS... this is a sarcastic reply
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There are many different ways to make slot game maths... but the majority work in the first way you mention. In its simplest form, it's a fixed array of symbols that the RNG picks a position in.
I've never done a game that works backwards (select a payout and show it) although that doesn't mean that some providers haven't done this... my guess is it will be smaller companies that do stuff like this that don't really understand slot maths.
I've only ever made games via calculation or simulation that are honest and use reel bands the way you suggest.
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We know that!
BabylonBear
Dormant Account
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With all due respect, the fact that you seem to think you worked out a successful "gameplan" that was somehow thwarted by the evil casinos shows that your understanding of gambling and randomness is flawed. Casinos love people like this, they make up an entire fantasy world to fill the void of lack of mathematical understanding. You think you are winning because you are "hot", you think you are losing because you have a "bad day", you think that after you've lost a certain amount, the universe owes you compensation in the form of a big win, etc.... These are all superstitions and fallacious mindsets of people who do not understand, or do not want to accept, the principle of an independent random outcome.
Furthermore, someone who wagers a million euro, sure they have a "fair" chance of winning, as you say. That doesn't mean they will certainly win, or that if they don't win it is because some rigging is afoot.
The reality is that casinos have a working model that uses randomness to achieve results. It's easy, it's simple, and it works well. There is absolutely no need to do anything further to break the law in order to ruin your day. Forgive me for being blunt, but the casino simply does not care about you that much, whether you win or lose, in order to put that much effort into cheating you. As long as they have the numbers they will make handsome profits.
BabylonBear
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- London
Thank you for your response, much appreciated.
So does that mean that the sequence of symbols/icons on each reel is set by the game developer and constant throughout the game? Or do the games randomly change what is on the reel at runtime? I know this is largely dependent on the developer, but I'm curious as to how closely it mimicks a physical reel.
Also, do you know if demo mode runs the same algorithm as the live play? e.g. is there a regulatory requirement for them to have the same behaviour? Or is it possible for a slot to give you large payouts and frequent bonuses in demo mode but follow a completely different algorithm when you play with real money? (I believe several people have asked whether or not slots change their behaviour based on the bet size, but I'm not sure if there is a special case for a bet size of 0 (i.e. a demo spin))
This last question is triggered because I have played a simple slot (Golden Tours) in demo mode locally without an internet connection, so I wonder how different it is...
NeverLucky
Senior Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2017
This one i can answer...
There was a Slot a while back where the Community discovered that Demo play played unbelievably well and demo mode was pretty much BS. I cant recall the slot or find the thread right now otherwise i'd link it to you, maybe @dunover remembers
Afaik, from a regulatory standpoint, that was not allowed.
- Joined
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- United kingdom
I know somebody who tested Microgaming and Netent slots. He was playing both provider games at max bet for real money for nearly 10 hours a day and for around 3 weeks!
So he was lucky if Microgaming slots paid him x200 - x300 playing at max bet (which was super rarely).
But on very small bet like 0.30 it paid over x1500. (He changed the bet size and almost instantly on Terminator slot received "Hot mode bonus")
With games by Netent was a completely different story - there was no difference on what size of the bet was he playing.
Netent even seemed like was more likely to pay out big by playing at max bet!
The guy collected a wild line at max bet on Dead or Alive slot and also hit may other decent wins.
So he was lucky if Microgaming slots paid him x200 - x300 playing at max bet (which was super rarely).
But on very small bet like 0.30 it paid over x1500. (He changed the bet size and almost instantly on Terminator slot received "Hot mode bonus")
With games by Netent was a completely different story - there was no difference on what size of the bet was he playing.
Netent even seemed like was more likely to pay out big by playing at max bet!
The guy collected a wild line at max bet on Dead or Alive slot and also hit may other decent wins.
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2015
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- South
I was at land based casino during holidays with friends....we went several times over the course of three weeks....we all came out with no winnings. Zero. But we had a good time.
You are either lucky or your not. We were unlucky just like you are with online slots.
It’s not rocket science to figure this out. The games are stacked against you from the outset. You either lucky or your not.
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2015
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- South
This one i can answer...
There was a Slot a while back where the Community discovered that Demo play played unbelievably well and demo mode was pretty much BS. I cant recall the slot or find the thread right now otherwise i'd link it to you, maybe @dunover remembers
Afaik, from a regulatory standpoint, that was not allowed.
It was from gameart on videoslots. And videoslots took down the providers games immediately.
NeverLucky
Senior Member
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- Sep 2, 2017
Found the Thread now thanks to @Steviedoo
ATTN: Casino Rep - Demo play not the same as real - GameArt slots
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This makes me wonder... is profiling players possible? Simular as going into a local casino and ramp up your players card into that slot. I know they cant manipulate as the law prohibites, but they sure could see your playing data, behaviour and all that. Once i became a VIP back in holland, i asked the manager like how did you knew it was me? He said, based on your bets and the frequency you are collecting points on your card we could do a math and estimate how much on avg you where betting. And that betting usually went from 10 to 20 euro a spin.
Like i find it very hard to believe, that for example you win big and for the following weeks it's completely zip, nada, nothing. How does that mix with randomness? A while ago i burned 2500 euro of winnings in like 4 hours. Everything i did was shot down, going from 10 to 1 euro bet a spin with even autoplay set at 250 and still get nothing.
I feel like a fool afterwards anyway; but with 2500 euro of playing money i should have hit a jackpot on at least some slot. With online it's simply not happening. This is why i believe that online is a complete different league compared to landbased. My 17k day in the local casino started off with 'simple 200 euro' upon entrance. I did my regular thing, i won a handpay of over 1000 euro and that was the bankroll for me to play bigger. I hitted a slot for 8500 euro and that triggered me to crack 2 other machines as well, making that day end leaving with 17k.
No i'm not saying landbased is 'better', but i think it's more realistic and once played right you actually have a better chance even tho on lower RTP. Oh and for all those who believe i am talking shit, i dedicated a complete youtube channel to my plays:
The 8500 euro bonus game:
50 euro bet bonus:
And just some random game:
Sorry, some games where played in just one day varied over different machines. I moved to Portugal recently and they do have the biggest casino (landbased) in europe. 1300 slots lol in Estoril. The volume seems lower compared to Holland and makes it a bit difficult to win big. The max bet for example is limited at 4 euro a spin where in holland this is 12 on 1ct denomination and 60 euro on a 5ct denomination. I had some really amazing games here in Portugal but they really forbid any recording. It's like when you already trying to make a photo of a handpay they are on you instant.
Everybody is facing the same things with playing online. I seem to think that the ones who defend this the loudest proberly never had a good experience in a landbased as well. Ah well. You guys are right. It's not my money lol.
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NeverLucky was right. It is specifically stated in the RGS Regulations that demo play must be the same as real play.
The reel bands are set and don't randomly change during run time. I could state some exceptions to this, but they wouldn't really be exceptions.. for example, games that have mystery symbols on them which morph in to other symbols... these may be special symbols on the reels for which the mystery symbol is picked on the press of a start button.
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Demo play is always run local, and no longer on the server. See the latency differences when going demo vs real. I dont believe any slot out there imposing the 'real rtp' as it is designed to haul people over.
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
Actually that's also not true. The reason you don't get as much latency is because there is no accountancy going on. No wallet being hit. No need for game recall or game recovery. No history needed. Everything can be a lot, lot faster
And if you don't believe it, then you believe everyone is willfully breaking the law. So if we are all a bunch of crooks, why on earth do you play
Also, if the game ran locally rather than from a server, then the game engine (maths) could be reverse engineered easily. Meaning the game provides gives away it's IP. Which would be a really odd business decision.
TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
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- Australia
So glad we have @trancemonkey here to say "actually, no" to the misconceptions people have.
Also lol at this (nice rack):
Also lol at this (nice rack):
Attachments
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Really? What if they simply dropped a old, outdated math in there? I could save the game locally as a SWF file, disconnect from the internet, and play. Ra ra.
TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
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- Apr 2, 2018
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- Australia
Then it would be a different game? Almost nothing uses flash anymore, with good reason.
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- Oct 16, 2018
- Location
- Isle of Bute Scotland
Quick question about random number generaters, say I'm playing a net ent game dead or alive and every spin is supposed to be total random as in RNG where does the machine get the number? Is it from netent? How long does it take from when I press spin for that info to be carried to the library and back with a result and does the same apply for game from blueprint where you can quickspin in less than a tenth is a sec surely there is Noway the game can send the spin info to the library and get the RNG back then decide how to display it that fast.
Excuse spelling and grammar its a pain to look over when using a mobile.
Excuse spelling and grammar its a pain to look over when using a mobile.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2013
- Location
- Finland
I'm just talking completely out of my ass here but I was thinking that when playing online multiplayer games on a server located on your continent you can easily have a latency of under 50ms as in 0,05 seconds. So when you do an action for example press shoot, the game server receives that input, calculates the outcome based on things such as the position of other players related to the shot, sends back the data and plays it on your screen. Surely an online slot can do a similar arguably simpler action in the same kind of time.
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You click, the dice rolls, in the meantime it sends out the bet and gets the result. The game shows the result. Open up wireshark and see the data thats actually being transmitted back and forth.
I see a few casino's still running various, flash games. Just that it's abandoned within the WEB standard does'nt mean it's not being used anymore. But i'm pretty sure that if i download a random SWF game, disconnect from the internet, open the SWF file with my browser, i would be able to play, and that there's a built-in mini random generator set a bit more positive in comparison to online.
Most game providers use a re-distribution system exactly as i've seen before on slots in a landbased casino, i.e block of 8 to 16 machines. All the players wagering is being put on one big pile and a RNG decides who gets what. So the real RNG within the game is actually taken out. This means that anyone betting 20 pences could get a 2000 ~ 4000x hit and the ones actually pumping and funding this whole circus are left with barely real chance.
Is this even random? yes, within the numbers it is. Is it fair? I dont think so. The one's who play big are always the one's who are funding this pyramid scheme.
I see a few casino's still running various, flash games. Just that it's abandoned within the WEB standard does'nt mean it's not being used anymore. But i'm pretty sure that if i download a random SWF game, disconnect from the internet, open the SWF file with my browser, i would be able to play, and that there's a built-in mini random generator set a bit more positive in comparison to online.
Most game providers use a re-distribution system exactly as i've seen before on slots in a landbased casino, i.e block of 8 to 16 machines. All the players wagering is being put on one big pile and a RNG decides who gets what. So the real RNG within the game is actually taken out. This means that anyone betting 20 pences could get a 2000 ~ 4000x hit and the ones actually pumping and funding this whole circus are left with barely real chance.
Is this even random? yes, within the numbers it is. Is it fair? I dont think so. The one's who play big are always the one's who are funding this pyramid scheme.
Well, you can send and receive data in milliseconds when moving a character in a video game multiple times in different directions it is working fluently. Creating the random numbers is done in such a short time that even I can create a program which will return them instantly to you and you will not even notice that there was any process ongoing.
It is technically possible, but you can ask yourself it the numbers are really random. Every random generator is not really random, but "random" enough for most of us. They using a difficult algorithm to generate the numbers and ...
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2013
- Location
- United Kingdom
I'd love to meet and have a conversation with you to understand where you get all your ideas from. You simply don't believe a word anyone says... so you must have formed your opinions from somewhere.
What proof do you have of this "redistribution system" because you say "most providers" so you are suggesting that they are all breaking the law. And also can you why we would need to use this system when a random game would do exactly the same things you think this system would do.
And also can you explain why you think there is a pyramid scheme... You say the big bettors are the ones funding the lower people, which would arguably mean they have a worse experience right? But casinos need those people... It's the high rollers that keep casinos in business... not those playing at 20c. So if you pissed these people off on purpose, that would be a ridiculous business decision.
Also I would be really interested to know why you simply ignore advice from people that know what they are talking about and refuse to ever change your mind? You wouldn't tell a doctor he was wrong if he told you you had an infection...
VismundCygnus
Full Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
- Location
- London
Sorry if this is offensive but my money is on Bloatgoat being a very clever and well-read troll. I know its nothing new with people being stubborn and preposterous in this thread especially, but he does it the same exact way I would, had I been given the objective to masquerade as another "rigged!"-shouter.
EDIT: Actually, the posts are way too long, ignore what I said above.
EDIT: Actually, the posts are way too long, ignore what I said above.
TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
- Location
- Australia
... Oh my dear naïve trancemonkey
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- Nov 29, 2017
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- Somewhere
@trancemonkey lol it's coming from one of the casino's i'm playing at themself, here i'll copy paste it for you:
So yes, there you have it. A redistribution system that wageres all players bets and randomly, distributes it among players. They are naming 3 brands which appearantly use that type of system.
So yes, there you have it. A redistribution system that wageres all players bets and randomly, distributes it among players. They are naming 3 brands which appearantly use that type of system.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2017
- Location
- East Yorkshire, UK
I'm pretty sure they are discussing standard RTP there...
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- Nov 29, 2017
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- Somewhere
I'm sorry, RTP or redistribution rate? Lol. It's pretty obvious they are talking about a redistribution of players wagering (their bets) and being randomly distributed over all active players.
This has taken the RTP out of the game pretty much. The RTP now is on the redistribution system which holds a 95% overall payback. I wrote this here before and before. Some of you dont seem to believe that this is what is going on these days.
This has taken the RTP out of the game pretty much. The RTP now is on the redistribution system which holds a 95% overall payback. I wrote this here before and before. Some of you dont seem to believe that this is what is going on these days.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2017
- Location
- East Yorkshire, UK
More likely a fudged explanation of what RTP actually is by someone who works in a casino. What it looks like they are trying to say is all of their games have an RTP of 95% or more. It's not rocket science, really.
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- Nov 29, 2017
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- Somewhere
Ah well god bless the ignorant.
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- Dec 29, 2017
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- United kingdom
That's because most of the people believe to what they been told or just support the majority's opinion!
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- Mar 25, 2017
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
It is likely that the people who wrote up the website know jack all about RTP and how slots actually work and tried to roughly explain how it works and have enough of the info wrong that it looks like what you think it is. Not all "higher ups" at casinos know exactly how it is suppose to work and they just think this is how it works.
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- Nov 29, 2017
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What good is a car salesman if he does'nt know what he is talking about?
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- Sep 20, 2017
- Location
- East Yorkshire, UK
A car salesman is like a casino rep how, exactly?
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- Location
- chelmsford UK
But you would not expect the car salesmen's secretary, who answers the phone to be clued up on the finer details of the cars.
Which essentially, the customer service reps are.
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A VIP manager? Okay.
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- Oct 10, 2012
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- London
From a developers point of view whats the differance between rtp and trtp
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