Ask me anything (about slots)!

[Jono777]

What I described worked, trust me

Play at 0.10 credits for £20.00 - £30.00 till the machine literally wants to throw money at you but you've refused all wins along the way and lost the full £20.00-£30.00.

Then increase to £1 per spin (or what you can comfortably afford) and it cost you no more than the same amount again to hit the "Jackpot" (500x??) or Top feature.

No way to lose and a guaranteed profit every time. It would also throw a few more features and boards after the big payout so you could always scrape another 100-200x profit from it also before it went "cold/dead"

 

[Reelsoffun]

What I described worked, trust me

Play at 0.10 credits for £20.00 - £30.00 till the machine literally wants to throw money at you but you've refused all wins along the way and lost the full £20.00-£30.00.

Then increase to £1 per spin (or what you can comfortably afford) and it cost you no more than the same amount again to hit the "Jackpot" (500x??) or Top feature.

No way to lose and a guaranteed profit every time. It would also throw a few more features and boards after the big payout so you could always scrape another 100-200x profit from it also before it went "cold/dead"

@Mr_Slot5 I can also confirm it worked very well using this method.

 

[trancemonkey]

What I described worked, trust me

Play at 0.10 credits for £20.00 - £30.00 till the machine literally wants to throw money at you but you've refused all wins along the way and lost the full £20.00-£30.00.

Then increase to £1 per spin (or what you can comfortably afford) and it cost you no more than the same amount again to hit the "Jackpot" (500x??) or Top feature.

No way to lose and a guaranteed profit every time. It would also throw a few more features and boards after the big payout so you could always scrape another 100-200x profit from it also before it went "cold/dead"

What a massive fuck up... and also, under the 2009 Act, my understanding is that they would be illegal. When were they removed?

 

[Jono777]

What a massive fuck up... and also, under the 2009 Act, my understanding is that they would be illegal. When were they removed?

Not sure mate, think around 2012-2013 as best I recall. Know I got made redundant from a 'lifetime' job in 2011 and was making a few quid from them after that to top up my income lol.

My description as to the 'loop hole' is by no means final, nor perfect, just how I came across the 'emptier' and right at the end of their run.

Guessing it could be a legally based "oh Shit!" scenario as there was no go slow on this one, Most 3 reel AWP's literally disappeared over night, it was that swift.

It was my land based AWP playing experience which led me to try the refuse wins / ramp up RTP trick and I was very surprised too when it actually worked.

Another surprise was that MG not once 'tweaked' and return these slot offerings, they were simply scrapped, never to be seen again which made me think even more something was totally amiss throughout the code, not fixable but easier and cheaper to abandon altogether.

 

[Valhalla]

I'm sure this has already been asked but if it's ok I want to ask it anyway (and I don't have the patience to read through 103 pages to find out ) but...

Say I'm playing Bonanza - which I do regularly - and at 60p it is playing pretty good. I'm winning, I'm getting free spins regularly, it's going well. So I think I'll up the bet to 80p or £1 a spin.
DEAD. DEAD. DEAD.
After a while of frustration, I return to 60p bet and the game carries on being good. Decent wins, free spins etc.

You could of course argue that I should continue playing at 60p bets since it is playing well, but why do slots do that? It's like I'm forced to play at a particular bet otherwise the game will be shit. Bonanza is actually the chief culprit of this nonsense - plays well in 60p bets but as soon as I raise the bet, the game dies. DHV is another one; playing at 80p bets is like pouring money down the drain, but as soon as I lower to 60p; free spins, big wins, yahoo.

 

[The Reel Story]

I'm sure this has already been asked but if it's ok I want to ask it anyway (and I don't have the patience to read through 103 pages to find out ) but...

Say I'm playing Bonanza - which I do regularly - and at 60p it is playing pretty good. I'm winning, I'm getting free spins regularly, it's going well. So I think I'll up the bet to 80p or £1 a spin.
DEAD. DEAD. DEAD.
After a while of frustration, I return to 60p bet and the game carries on being good. Decent wins, free spins etc.

You could of course argue that I should continue playing at 60p bets since it is playing well, but why do slots do that? It's like I'm forced to play at a particular bet otherwise the game will be shit. Bonanza is actually the chief culprit of this nonsense - plays well in 60p bets but as soon as I raise the bet, the game dies. DHV is another one; playing at 80p bets is like pouring money down the drain, but as soon as I lower to 60p; free spins, big wins, yahoo.

It isn't a 'thing'. It's not something slots do. It's more something that evokes an emotional response from you and so sticks in your memory (it's psychology and human nature and actually a massive part of Gambling). You would probably find that, if you had enough data from all of your play, that it actually is quite even

 

[brianmon]

It isn't a 'thing'. It's not something slots do. It's more something that evokes an emotional response from you and so sticks in your memory (it's psychology and human nature and actually a massive part of Gambling). You would probably find that, if you had enough data from all of your play, that it actually is quite even

It's not so easy to write-off as just an 'emotional response', when there's software such as SlotTracker. Which you can use to monitor and analyse your play.
You can start out with a reasonable hit rate, RTP and feature frequency. Nothing over the top, just reasonable/average.
Then just watch those figures change (for the worst) when you bump up the stakes

 

[The Reel Story]

It's not so easy to write-off as just an 'emotional response', when there's software such as SlotTracker. Which you can use to monitor and analyse your play.
You can start out with a reasonable hit rate, RTP and feature frequency. Nothing over the top, just reasonable/average.
Then just watch those figures change (for the worst) when you bump up the stakes

Unfortunately one persons play just isn't statistically significant. To reduce the margin of error down to acceptable levels you need to be looking at at LEAST 100,000 spins, preferably 1 or 10 million or more (see my video here for a practical example of how many spins you really need to start seeing accuracy).

While you may see this pattern, even in your own statistics, it's likely well within acceptable statistical bounds for it to have happened :-/

 

[Playford7]

Sorry if this has been answered already.
But the thread is longer than war and peace.
But are the ‘pub fruit’ series by blueprint compensated in anyway?.
Certainly feels that way.
‘But yes I know, feelings..and all that’ lol

 

[brianmon]

Unfortunately one persons play just isn't statistically significant. To reduce the margin of error down to acceptable levels you need to be looking at at LEAST 100,000 spins, preferably 1 or 10 million or more (see my video here for a practical example of how many spins you really need to start seeing accuracy).

While you may see this pattern, even in your own statistics, it's likely well within acceptable statistical bounds for it to have happened :-/

One person's play is significant to the person who sees the sudden change in play every time the stakes are changed.
You can't just say they're imagining it.
Everything may well balance out over 100,000 spins. But when those 'coincidences' happen time and time again.....

 

[trancemonkey]

Sorry if this has been answered already.
But the thread is longer than war and peace.
But are the ‘pub fruit’ series by blueprint compensated in anyway?.
Certainly feels that way.
‘But yes I know, feelings..and all that’ lol

As I know one of the producers at Blueprint, and I've asked him outright, I can safely say no.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

One person's play is significant to the person who sees the sudden change in play every time the stakes are changed.
You can't just say they're imagining it.
Everything may well balance out over 100,000 spins. But when those 'coincidences' happen time and time again.....

The amount of times I've played slightly higher bets on Novo than I would normally due to a win on another game etc, gone 300 spins without bonus, take the bet down and immediately hit the bonus on the lower bet...(and when I say immediately I mean within 5 spins or so).

Another thing I notice often is when I have a decent session, hit very good bonuses on one stake, when I up the bet if I do get a bonus on the higher stake it's equivalent or worse in cash terms to the good bonuses I was getting on the lower stakes. I often feel there's a 'ceiling' to what I can win.

Of course, just like @The Reel Story says, it could just be in the mind.

 

[The Reel Story]

One person's play is significant to the person who sees the sudden change in play every time the stakes are changed.
You can't just say they're imagining it.
Everything may well balance out over 100,000 spins. But when those 'coincidences' happen time and time again.....

I don't mean personally significant. I mean statistically significant. I.e,there is enough data to prove something one way or another. Statistical significance requires large volumes of data, otherwise, by definition, the result and the conclusion are only anecdotal.

Its impossible for me to stop you feeling the way you feel though. I can only assure you that, as long as you are playing on a reputable regulated Casino, that the behaviour you are seeing is not happening intentionally. It is luck (bad in this case).

 

[The Reel Story]

The amount of times I've played slightly higher bets on Novo than I would normally due to a win on another game etc, gone 300 spins without bonus, take the bet down and immediately hit the bonus on the lower bet...(and when I say immediately I mean within 5 spins or so).

Another thing I notice often is when I have a decent session, hit very good bonuses on one stake, when I up the bet if I do get a bonus on the higher stake it's equivalent or worse in cash terms to the good bonuses I was getting on the lower stakes. I often feel there's a 'ceiling' to what I can win.

Of course, just like @The Reel Story says, it could just be in the mind.

It happens to everyone sadly. I've only ever had one £1 bonus on who wants to be a millionaire (I'm a low roller normally. Did a couple of 'big' spins and hit a bonus) . 80% on the first gamble and i failed it. Rage does not even come close to describing my feelings but it's memorable for so many reasons (the higher stake, the high gamble chance, my rection etc) so I'll never forget it.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

It happens to everyone sadly. I've only ever had one £1 bonus on who wants to be a millionaire (I'm a low roller normally. Did a couple of 'big' spins and hit a bonus) . 80% on the first gamble and i failed it. Rage does not even come close to describing my feelings but it's memorable for so many reasons (the higher stake, the high gamble chance, my rection etc) so I'll never forget it.

Funnily enough that happened to me on Bonanza. Was low rolling on 20p spins and decided to do a few £1 spins. 2 spins in I hit the GOLD. Bonus paid about 60x I think.

 

[trancemonkey]

There is no forced change in play... as I've repeated many times, casinos make MOST of their money from the high stakes players, so why do you think games would suddenly play worse if you staked up?! If we were to do be allowed to do stuff like that, surely we would make it better to stake up!

 

[dionysus]

There is no forced change in play... as I've repeated many times, casinos make MOST of their money from the high stakes players, so why do you think games would suddenly play worse if you staked up?! If we were to do be allowed to do stuff like that, surely we would make it better to stake up!

A Q
income, sure, makes sense, high rollers source/fund casinos
but id gather low rollers are still bread and butter, yes?
I'd suspect high rollers also often jump ship and take that bankroll with them, possibly moreso than low rolllers (aside from bonus hunters)?

 

[trancemonkey]

Casinos need both.

 

[brianmon]

There is no forced change in play... as I've repeated many times, casinos make MOST of their money from the high stakes players, so why do you think games would suddenly play worse if you staked up?! If we were to do be allowed to do stuff like that, surely we would make it better to stake up!

Maybe it also happens to the high stake players too.
It's not a case of what stake you're playing at. It's a case of changing the stake during play.

Another thing which very often happens, especially with MGS games, is, almost immediately after a decent, not huge, win (50x-100x). The game will have either a long lagging spin or give a disconnection error, meaning it has to be reloaded.

After that reload/lagging spin, the game becomes completely dead. Obviously you can't expect another decent win. But suddenly, 8 out of 10 spins are dead spins with the odd 3OAK win. where as earlier the hit rate was around 3:1 with the odd 4OAK/5OAK
It's like you're being transferred to a different server.

So it's not like the game itself is changing anything, more like you're playing a different game, on a different server

I'm not saying that's what's actually happening. But that's what it feels like
But obviously just a huge coincidence.

 

[mack341]

Maybe it also happens to the high stake players too.
It's not a case of what stake you're playing at. It's a case of changing the stake during play.

Another thing which very often happens, especially with MGS games, is, almost immediately after a decent, not huge, win (50x-100x). The game will have either a long lagging spin or give a disconnection error, meaning it has to be reloaded.

After that reload/lagging spin, the game becomes completely dead. Obviously you can't expect another decent win. But suddenly, 8 out of 10 spins are dead spins with the odd 3OAK win. where as earlier the hit rate was around 3:1 with the odd 4OAK/5OAK
It's like you're being transferred to a different server.

So it's not like the game itself is changing anything, more like you're playing a different game, on a different server

I'm not saying that's what's actually happening. But that's what it feels like
But obviously just a huge coincidence.

could it be the game's reel set has changed from giving frequent small wins to one where bigger wins become possible [50-100x] but then to balance the rtp the small win frequency is halved? I experience the same thing on rhino, after say a 40-50x win [40p cheetahs@£20] it often goes dead and takes back the £20 plus more...

 

[goatwack]

Seems to be a lot of recurring negative coincidental gameplay patterns knocking about with slots

Almost as though.........

 

[The Reel Story]

Maybe it also happens to the high stake players too.
It's not a case of what stake you're playing at. It's a case of changing the stake during play.

Another thing which very often happens, especially with MGS games, is, almost immediately after a decent, not huge, win (50x-100x). The game will have either a long lagging spin or give a disconnection error, meaning it has to be reloaded.

After that reload/lagging spin, the game becomes completely dead. Obviously you can't expect another decent win. But suddenly, 8 out of 10 spins are dead spins with the odd 3OAK win. where as earlier the hit rate was around 3:1 with the odd 4OAK/5OAK
It's like you're being transferred to a different server.

So it's not like the game itself is changing anything, more like you're playing a different game, on a different server

I'm not saying that's what's actually happening. But that's what it feels like
But obviously just a huge coincidence.

If the game wanted to transfer you to a different server, it wouldn't need to disconnect and reload. Each request/response is sent independently, so if it wanted to do that, it would just reroute your request at the server side somewhere else. Additionally, it would even need to be a separate server, just a different version of the game logic with worse/rigged results.

This is, of course, NOT what is happening, but the point is, if it were, it wouldn't be done in such an obvious way that you could tell

 

[The Reel Story]

could it be the game's reel set has changed from giving frequent small wins to one where bigger wins become possible [50-100x] but then to balance the rtp the small win frequency is halved? I experience the same thing on rhino, after say a 40-50x win [40p cheetahs@£20] it often goes dead and takes back the £20 plus more...

Not how the games work. While different reel sets can (and are) used, it would be random as to which one was in effect (or based on features of the game). Games don't 'choose' to give you the 'small win' reel set and then 'choose' to give you the big win one. They could, randomly each spin, select one of the two though (if that was a feature of that game). Not really a lot of point though as a well balanced reel set will give you small and big wins in just the right proportion anyway, without the need to change.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

A Q
income, sure, makes sense, high rollers source/fund casinos
but id gather low rollers are still bread and butter, yes?
I'd suspect high rollers also often jump ship and take that bankroll with them, possibly moreso than low rolllers (aside from bonus hunters)?

Also, say a low roller has an average bet size of 40p but then decides to try their luck at £2 spins. If that low roller hits something massive on the higher stake, casinos must surely realise there's less chance of the low roller playing that money back than if the same xstake was hit on the lower bet.

That's just one example of where it'd be in the casino's interest to have some control over stuff like that.

 

[The Reel Story]

Also, say a low roller has an average bet size of 40p but then decides to try their luck at £2 spins. If that low roller hits something massive on the higher stake, casinos must surely realise there's less chance of the low roller playing that money back than if the same xstake was hit on the lower bet.

That's just one example of where it'd be in the casino's interest to have some control over stuff like that.

On the contrary, while they may cash out that initial win, the fact that they got that big win will, for most people, make them come back again (to try and repeat it) and possibly play at higher stakes because a) they have some winnings to play with so feel less bad about losing it and b) to try and replicate what happened last time.

Casino's make money because, in the majority of cases, gamblers put it all back. Maybe not straight away, but eventually.

 

[trancemonkey]

Also, say a low roller has an average bet size of 40p but then decides to try their luck at £2 spins. If that low roller hits something massive on the higher stake, casinos must surely realise there's less chance of the low roller playing that money back than if the same xstake was hit on the lower bet.

That's just one example of where it'd be in the casino's interest to have some control over stuff like that.

Casinos (legit ones) want, and need, people to hit big wins. It is what keeps people coming back for more...

Big wins are, in most cases, just short term loans...

 

[Reelsoffun]

Big wins are, in most cases, just short term loans...

With interest rates that would even make the payday loans APR look good lol

 

[mack341]

Not how the games work. While different reel sets can (and are) used, it would be random as to which one was in effect (or based on features of the game). Games don't 'choose' to give you the 'small win' reel set and then 'choose' to give you the big win one. They could, randomly each spin, select one of the two though (if that was a feature of that game). Not really a lot of point though as a well balanced reel set will give you small and big wins in just the right proportion anyway, without the need to change.

I think I did read it somewhere in this thread that a game could adjust itself according to stake, eg. the weighting of the reels to change the variance, as long as the stated rtp was still accurate and results were random. It might not be common but it would be legal and permissible.

 

[The Reel Story]

I think I did read it somewhere in this thread that a game could adjust itself according to stake, eg. the weighting of the reels to change the variance, as long as the stated rtp was still accurate and results were random. It might not be common but it would be legal and permissible.

For an online slot, I don't believe that is legal. I'm not sure about land based. I know that higher denomination machines do tend to have better RTP's. I don't know if a machine where you can select your denomination will change the RTP or not.

 

[mack341]

For an online slot, I don't believe that is legal. I'm not sure about land based. I know that higher denomination machines do tend to have better RTP's. I don't know if a machine where you can select your denomination will change the RTP or not.

No I wasn't saying the rtp would change and become better or worse due to changing your stake but the variance could change and the same rtp could be distributed differently by weighting of symbols [different reel sets]

 

[The Reel Story]

No I wasn't saying the rtp would change and become better or worse due to changing your stake but the variance could change and the same rtp could be distributed differently.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Hmm, even so, I don't believe that would be legal. Not 100% as it's been a while out of the industry for me. @trancemonkey will know.

The reelsets changing during play is fine as long as it's totally random and the overall RTP is reported, but pretty sure anything done on a per stake basis is not allowed.

 

[brianmon]

Ahh, I see what you mean. Hmm, even so, I don't believe that would be legal. Not 100% as it's been a while out of the industry for me. @trancemonkey will know.

The reelsets changing during play is fine as long as it's totally random and the overall RTP is reported, but pretty sure anything done on a per stake basis is not allowed.

IIRC, it was Trancemonkey who said it

 

[mack341]

Ahh, I see what you mean. Hmm, even so, I don't believe that would be legal. Not 100% as it's been a while out of the industry for me. @trancemonkey will know.

The reelsets changing during play is fine as long as it's totally random and the overall RTP is reported, but pretty sure anything done on a per stake basis is not allowed.

But why wouldn't it be allowed if the player betting £4 is getting the same rtp as the one betting 20p? I thought the testing houses were just tasked with making sure the rtp was accurate across the different stakes, and didn't payout proportionately more to one stake than another.

 

[mack341]

not to change the subject but I wonder how do they test the rtp for a game like dream catcher/ monopoly live?

 

[trancemonkey]

For an online slot, I don't believe that is legal. I'm not sure about land based. I know that higher denomination machines do tend to have better RTP's. I don't know if a machine where you can select your denomination will change the RTP or not.

Yes, machines can and do have non-linear RTPs. It is also "legal" online but the UKGC dont like it.

 

[The Reel Story]

not to change the subject but I wonder how do they test the rtp for a game like dream catcher/ monopoly live?

Same way for any other game. Simulate it and do the maths. The wheel is essentially an RNG. So you would need the wheel to be accredited as random, but you can simulate the RTP of the game by using a computer based RNG.

Also true of Roulette, Blackjack etc. Any table game where a physical device acts as your RNG.

 

[The Reel Story]

Yes, machines can and do have non-linear RTPs. It is also "legal" online but the UKGC dont like it.

Thanks for the clarification, that's interesting. You'd think if they didn't like it they'd just make it illegal haha.

 

[mack341]

Same way for any other game. Simulate it and do the maths. The wheel is essentially an RNG. So you would need the wheel to be accredited as random, but you can simulate the RTP of the game by using a computer based RNG.

Also true of Roulette, Blackjack etc. Any table game where a physical device acts as your RNG.

ah right I thought they might need to use a 'computer model' otherwise some poor bugger would have to spin that wheel millions of times

That was something I never understood about the national lottery, the need for all the different machines, merlin and lancelot etc.., I suppose it was done to increase the 'randomness' of a physical process

 

[Bloatgoat]

that the Casino could set, so they could limit their exposure game by game.

Thank you for debunking, that online slots are random.

 

[The Reel Story]

Thank you for debunking, that online slots are random.

I'm not sure how an upper limit on the max win effects how random the game is?

 

[slotmaster]

Casinos (legit ones) want, and need, people to hit big wins. It is what keeps people coming back for more...

Big wins are, in most cases, just short term loans...

The last couple or few trips each time I have talked to someone who hit big last time and they were there again trying to do the same. One guy was there every time we went.

 

[Bloatgoat]

I'm not sure how an upper limit on the max win effects how random the game is?

If the game itself was properly designed, it should never exceed a certain or 'impossible' win right? The fact that they do have checkbacks to limit a certain payback takes the statement of a game being random, not being random. Because in a way it's random yes, but always within parameters. It's like having a box, in this box anything can happen. But it cant escape the box and do some crazy stuff, if the game was properly designed.

You see i always found myself in a hard session limit in Online casino's. The bigger brands seem to have a higher ceiling, the smaller ones a 'lower' ceiling related to what you could win for the day. This one particular casino always has a 3k threshold on avg, sets me back down to 2500, gives me a great big win to 3100 or so, and boots me back down. It usually repeats itself 3 times before going down the 'hard way' where nothing just works.

It is to my understanding that online play is kind of a farce. Yes in a way you can win. But it's in a controlled enviroment actually. It reminds me of my winning days in local casino's, hitting like 6 handpays in barely 3 hours. When the floormanager to come take a look at what i was doing (and how) the fun was over after a while. The big wins where now more even distributed to i.e 2 to 3x big wins rather then one big on itself. I understand that the fun needs to be just as fun for the next guest, but casino's DO have control over the slots they license.

Gambling is over. It's kind of waiting untill the new hype with some new brand and streamers making million of wins with a dozen of OMFG-faces spreaded all over youtube, and the cycle repeats itself.

 

[The Reel Story]

Ok, there's a chunk to unpack here so i'll do it piece by piece.

If the game itself was properly designed, it should never exceed a certain or 'impossible' win right? The fact that they do have checkbacks to limit a certain payback takes the statement of a game being random, not being random. Because in a way it's random yes, but always within parameters. It's like having a box, in this box anything can happen. But it cant escape the box and do some crazy stuff, if the game was properly designed.

Not true. A properly designed game can still, in theory, retrigger infinite times, it's just the odds of it doing so are infinitesimally small. In fact, any game that allows retriggers within free spins can, potentially, keep doing that. The max winning limits that Casino's impose are caps. They don't impact the maths of the game at all, they just reduce the final payout. So if the max win was set to £1000 and you won £2000 in free spins, you would only actually get £1000 out the end of it. Technically the game still paid £2000, it's just the Casino caps the win. The max win cap couldn't modify the maths of the game.

In reality, these limits were always very high (normally £100,000 minimum) and were just in place to stop ridiculousness happening. It was also an optional limit. Some Casino's actually chose not to use it, instead limiting using the maximum stake. There was still that infinitesimally small possibility of a crazy win, but they were ok with that (bigger Casino's can take more risk). Additionally, for our platform at least, we would specify that games would have to handle these limits gracefully. So if the max win was set to £100,000, a game would never display more than that value to a player. It would also inform the player they had hit the max winning cap and it would stop any free spins at that point as well. The idea being that you never wanted to tell a player they had won more than £100,000 and then reduce it afterwards, because that is galling and terrible PR. We had stringent test cases around these things to ensure the player experience was always the best it could be.

You see i always found myself in a hard session limit in Online casino's. The bigger brands seem to have a higher ceiling, the smaller ones a 'lower' ceiling related to what you could win for the day. This one particular casino always has a 3k threshold on avg, sets me back down to 2500, gives me a great big win to 3100 or so, and boots me back down. It usually repeats itself 3 times before going down the 'hard way' where nothing just works.

I mean, that isn't a thing. Casino's simply do not have that kind of control.

It is to my understanding that online play is kind of a farce. Yes in a way you can win. But it's in a controlled enviroment actually. It reminds me of my winning days in local casino's, hitting like 6 handpays in barely 3 hours. When the floormanager to come take a look at what i was doing (and how) the fun was over after a while. The big wins where now more even distributed to i.e 2 to 3x big wins rather then one big on itself. I understand that the fun needs to be just as fun for the next guest, but casino's DO have control over the slots they license.

They really don't have control outside of the following variables that were configurable (this will be largely standard)

• Minimum Stake
• Maximum Stake
• Maximum Win (cap)
• Possible Stake Denominations

The only control the have over the maths of the game is to ask the Slot provider for a different version with a different RTP. And the slot provider will normally only make one or two versions of the maths at most. You can't just go into an admin console and type '80%' and have the game start paying that. To do that, the game would have to dynamically recalculate it's reelsets, bonus rounds, symbol values etc etc which is pretty much impossible to do. Remember, RTP is derived, not set.

Same is true for land based. If they want to change the RTP of a game in a Casino, they have to physically open up the machine and change the chip. This will start to progress to centrally served games (so the terminals act more like online slots) but the same thing applies. The RTP will be what the slot provider has provided. It can't just be changed willy nilly.

If you haven't already seen it, watch my video here.

Gambling is over. It's kind of waiting untill the new hype with some new brand and streamers making million of wins with a dozen of OMFG-faces spreaded all over youtube, and the cycle repeats itself.

Streamers don't get any advantage over anyone else, apart from the Casino will give them better bonuses (100% match on ever deposit etc). Some Casino's will give a streamer a pre-loaded account (without the ability to Withdraw), so effectively playing with demo money but made to look real. Some streamers use this and fake it, but most do not (and post reports of their deposits etc to prove it). Also, most streamers are at a loss from gambling. They make their money from affiliation and advertising.

It would actually be technically incredibly difficult to pick out an individual player for preferential spins on a slot.

Now I know you won't believe me on any of this, but it is what it is and this is the way it works. Casino's don't need to cheat, they make plenty of money legally by letting the maths do the work. That's the biggest flaw in the whole 'Gambling is rigged' conspiracy, it's literally pointless and more difficult for a Casino to do so.

 

[The Reel Story]

ah right I thought they might need to use a 'computer model' otherwise some poor bugger would have to spin that wheel millions of times

That was something I never understood about the national lottery, the need for all the different machines, merlin and lancelot etc.., I suppose it was done to increase the 'randomness' of a physical process

I think the whole multiple machine thing was to put the possibility of fraud beyond doubt. Lotteries are SO public and SO widely played, that they have to go to ridiculous lengths to ensure that fraud is impossible. Multiple machines, multiple sets of balls, independent auditors on every spin (a friend of mine actually did this. He was stood next to the machine on TV inspecting everything haha) just ensure that everything is beyond reproach.

Even the hint of the possibility that a Lottery outcome had been influenced would destroy that lottery for good, so they go full on overboard

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok, there's a chunk to unpack here so i'll do it piece by piece.



Not true. A properly designed game can still, in theory, retrigger infinite times, it's just the odds of it doing so are infinitesimally small. In fact, any game that allows retriggers within free spins can, potentially, keep doing that. The max winning limits that Casino's impose are caps. They don't impact the maths of the game at all, they just reduce the final payout. So if the max win was set to £1000 and you won £2000 in free spins, you would only actually get £1000 out the end of it. Technically the game still paid £2000, it's just the Casino caps the win. The max win cap couldn't modify the maths of the game.

In reality, these limits were always very high (normally £100,000 minimum) and were just in place to stop ridiculousness happening. It was also an optional limit. Some Casino's actually chose not to use it, instead limiting using the maximum stake. There was still that infinitesimally small possibility of a crazy win, but they were ok with that (bigger Casino's can take more risk). Additionally, for our platform at least, we would specify that games would have to handle these limits gracefully. So if the max win was set to £100,000, a game would never display more than that value to a player. It would also inform the player they had hit the max winning cap and it would stop any free spins at that point as well. The idea being that you never wanted to tell a player they had won more than £100,000 and then reduce it afterwards, because that is galling and terrible PR. We had stringent test cases around these things to ensure the player experience was always the best it could be.



I mean, that isn't a thing. Casino's simply do not have that kind of control.



They really don't have control outside of the following variables that were configurable (this will be largely standard)

• Minimum Stake
• Maximum Stake
• Maximum Win (cap)
• Possible Stake Denominations

The only control the have over the maths of the game is to ask the Slot provider for a different version with a different RTP. And the slot provider will normally only make one or two versions of the maths at most. You can't just go into an admin console and type '80%' and have the game start paying that. To do that, the game would have to dynamically recalculate it's reelsets, bonus rounds, symbol values etc etc which is pretty much impossible to do. Remember, RTP is derived, not set.

Same is true for land based. If they want to change the RTP of a game in a Casino, they have to physically open up the machine and change the chip. This will start to progress to centrally served games (so the terminals act more like online slots) but the same thing applies. The RTP will be what the slot provider has provided. It can't just be changed willy nilly.

If you haven't already seen it, watch my video here.





Streamers don't get any advantage over anyone else, apart from the Casino will give them better bonuses (100% match on ever deposit etc). Some Casino's will give a streamer a pre-loaded account (without the ability to Withdraw), so effectively playing with demo money but made to look real. Some streamers use this and fake it, but most do not (and post reports of their deposits etc to prove it). Also, most streamers are at a loss from gambling. They make their money from affiliation and advertising.

It would actually be technically incredibly difficult to pick out an individual player for preferential spins on a slot.

Now I know you won't believe me on any of this, but it is what it is and this is the way it works. Casino's don't need to cheat, they make plenty of money legally by letting the maths do the work. That's the biggest flaw in the whole 'Gambling is rigged' conspiracy, it's literally pointless and more difficult for a Casino to do so.

You really do sound like me... welcome to the "we dont believe whatever you say" side of the fence

 

[The Reel Story]

You really do sound like me... welcome to the "we dont believe whatever you say" side of the fence

Haha, that's because we're on the same page and have first hand experience of this stuff

I'm sure i'll still sleep soundly even if someone doesn't believe me

 

[Masquerade67]

When designing your slots, how much psychology do you share with the casinos that use your products ? You must have to write games that are attractive to play and they must have all the stats on what players spend, what games they play prior to playing your slots and what they do afterwards.

From your perspective, how good are you collectively at giving us a good time or changing the bag on the Dyson ??

 

[The Reel Story]

When designing your slots, how much psychology do you share with the casinos that use your products ? You must have to write games that are attractive to play and they must have all the stats on what players spend, what games they play prior to playing your slots and what they do afterwards.

From your perspective, how good are you collectively at giving us a good time or changing the bag on the Dyson ??

There are a few different angles here.

It very much depends on the Casino and the provider. Some Casino's had very hard requirements about how game were implemented and the features they contained. They would be strict about spin times, autoplay functionality, stake selections, loading times etc etc. Others would be very lax and didn't care much beyond wanting the latest content from the providers.

Same on the provider side. Some produced garbage and just went for volume, others produced quality at a slower rate. The best providers understood the psychology behind the design and the maths model and that is why their content stood out. They wouldn't generally share that info with the Casino though, as they didn't need to. The Casino would be able to see the performance of providers games and high quality stuff performs well, and so they want more of it. At that point, they just trust the provider.

Certainly performance statistics on games were taken and measured. Behavioural statistics, like what was played before and after etc. That kind of stuff depends on the Casino. The biggest and best will understand this stuff and position games, website widgets, adverts etc to maximise impact and engagement. Smaller ones who can't afford this analysis (or just don't focus on it) obviously won't do it

 

[Masquerade67]

Thanks for the response ReelStory. I guess that the sheer number of casino-customers of the gaming companies and the differing layouts of their websites and B&M outfits make drawing patterns different in your slot designs - not to mention local legislation that may be in effect. To draw an analogy with other retail sectors, if you make a good product, then they'll (the casinos) come back for more ??? Is this why all you designers seem to be slot-players as well..... you're doing market research for that next killer game ?

 

[The Reel Story]

I'm not actually a slot designer. I used to run a business unit that provided a gaming platform. So slot providers would do the graphics and the maths, we would do the back end and the integration with the Casinos, then the slot provider would integrate their front end to our back end.

So I've worked with many many different providers, but never made a slot. That said, i can't imagine being able to make a good slot without playing them