Q&A Ask Me Anything about Slots (AMA) 2020 with Trancemonkey

[Spikie]

The Razor Shark win is interesting..... how is it so far outside the theoretical maximum ?

would they have found it in testing after 2 billion spins and not 1 billion ?

and why didn’t they just program a hard 50000x limit so it couldn’t be exceeded ?

 

[trancemonkey]

When we run 4 billion games, or whatever the amount it, there is no guarantee that the maximum win is not higher than the maximum we see in that number of games.

It is entirely possible that a win higher than the max seen in 4 billion games could happen in the Wild. All we are saying is that the maximum win seen in 4b games is X. However, there could be a 1 in 5bn chance of a higher win that simply was not caught by the simulation.

This is perfectly acceptable and legal - and is in the players favour!

 

[BlaCGaming]

When we run 4 billion games, or whatever the amount it, there is no guarantee that the maximum win is not higher than the maximum we see in that number of games.

It is entirely possible that a win higher than the max seen in 4 billion games could happen in the Wild. All we are saying is that the maximum win seen in 4b games is X. However, there could be a 1 in 5bn chance of a higher win that simply was not caught by the simulation.

This is perfectly acceptable and legal - and is in the players favour!

But doesn't that one huge win have a big impact on RTP? Or is the stated RTP for the 4bn games only and could go over the more games are played?

 

[trancemonkey]

But doesn't that one huge win have a big impact on RTP? Or is the stated RTP for the 4bn games only and could go over the more games are played?

Correct the stated RTP would be based on the 4bn game simulation. At worst, the RTP would only ever be higher. And no, it would make almost no difference to the RTP.

An 85,000x win at 1 in 4bn games would make 0.002125% difference to the RTP. I.e so small it makes no practical difference

 

[BlaCGaming]

Correct the stated RTP would be based on the 4bn game simulation. At worst, the RTP would only ever be higher. And no, it would make almost no difference to the RTP.

An 85,000x win at 1 in 4bn games would make 0.002125% difference to the RTP. I.e so small it makes no practical difference

Interesting, thank you!

Does this in turn mean that just because you had a max win of 50k x in simulations doesn't guarantee any player will actually hit that max win anywhere even when doing those 4bn games? It's just something that YOU hit in simulations?

 

[trancemonkey]

Interesting, thank you!

Does this in turn mean that just because you had a max win of 50k x in simulations doesn't guarantee any player will actually hit that max win anywhere even when doing those 4bn games? It's just something that YOU hit in simulations?

Correct. There can be no guarantees with random

 

[PuddleFish]

This is perfectly acceptable and legal - and is in the players favour!

I do wonder however if the operator doesn't have a strong argument against the supplier to pay for part of this. Since the operator had to payout in this case 1.75m SEK (168k EUR) more than they though was possible.
Since its "infinity spins" in that game it could then as well go above the 85000x and cost the operator 100x that and bankrupting the whole company from a single game.

 

[trancemonkey]

I do wonder however if the operator doesn't have a strong argument against the supplier to pay for part of this. Since the operator had to payout in this case 1.75m SEK (168k EUR) more than they though was possible.
Since its "infinity spins" in that game it could then as well go above the 85000x and cost the operator 100x that and bankrupting the whole company from a single game.

They would very likely not have any claim against the developer, and also would be crazy not to have a max payout clause in their Ts and Cs like most do.

What was the total win? I can't find the thread...

 

[PuddleFish]

They would very likely not have any claim against the developer, and also would be crazy not to have a max payout clause in their Ts and Cs like most do.

What was the total win? I can't find the thread...

It was a total of 4.27M SEK in Old URL. Seems like they payed it out from a comment in the youtube video "The Casino paid the winnings in full, the game max cap seems to be a soft cap so not set in stone". They might still send part of that bill to the supplier unless they where informed of that the caps are soft and can be broken. At least now they can change it to state max 85000x.

Can't say I have seen a max payout clause anywhere for slots but don't really study the T & Cs in detail. Only the common errors voids all pay and play type of thing.

 

[trancemonkey]

It was a total of 4.27M SEK in Old URL. Seems like they payed it out from a comment in the youtube video "The Casino paid the winnings in full, the game max cap seems to be a soft cap so not set in stone". They might still send part of that bill to the supplier unless they where informed of that the caps are soft and can be broken. At least now they can change it to state max 85000x.

Can't say I have seen a max payout clause anywhere for slots but don't really study the T & Cs in detail. Only the common errors voids all pay and play type of thing.

A lot of casinos can have max payout clauses... and no, they can't send any of that bill to the developer. The max liability data companies send to casinos is never, to my knowledge, an absolute number. It would likely be made perfectly clear that this is the maximum in X number of games, but that that does not mean it is the absolute max.

 

[CasinoNinja]

Alot of casinos have £250.000 as max wins (minus progressive) in any slot game, I tend to avoid those casinos as miracles could happen

 

[JkG]

Do games providers have to run their games through a gauntlet of checks before they release them for the casinos? Also, do the casinos have a team of some kind that personally check the games to ensure correct working order before launching ?

Thanking Mr Monkey

Also what's your favourite trance track?
Assuming you're a trance dancin monkey?
Were you also an adolescent of the 90s?

Ah no... Really just wanted to know the first part and thought this page needed some cute pics. Also speaking of cute. Lil n00b kitty gambler poses a question

Wish I knew kiddo..

 

[bamberfishcake]

Alot of casinos have £250.000 as max wins (minus progressive) in any slot game, I tend to avoid those casinos as miracles could happen

Take it these are under the radar 'not your average casino'? Ive not had a winnings capped yet but i dont read all the t&c's as i should if im honest.

 

[trancemonkey]

Take it these are under the radar 'not your average casino'? Ive not had a winnings capped yet but i dont read all the t&c's as i should if im honest.

Nope.. William Hill and Coral have these I believe (or at least used to...)

It will be stated in the rules

 

[SnakeFood]

I would have thought most have a maximum payout in the t&C's. £250k, £500 or possibly £1m

 

[CasinoNinja]

Alot do yes, but the likes of Rizk, Videoslots etc don't. But they tend to lower the max bet on the most volatile games to prevent massive winnings

 

[SnakeFood]

Exactly. The max payout at any offered stake on a game really shouldn't exceed their T&C maximum payout.

 

[SnakeFood]

Progressives aside of course, like you say

 

[trancemonkey]

View attachment 144958

Do games providers have to run their games through a gauntlet of checks before they release them for the casinos? Also, do the casinos have a team of some kind that personally check the games to ensure correct working order before launching ?

Thanking Mr Monkey

Also what's your favourite trance track?
Assuming you're a trance dancin monkey?
Were you also an adolescent of the 90s?

View attachment 144959


Ah no... Really just wanted to know the first part and thought this page needed some cute pics. Also speaking of cute. Lil n00b kitty gambler poses a question

View attachment 144960

Wish I knew kiddo..

Yes, in regulated markets, games have to be certified as compliant. Also, someone internal (a personal licence holder) also has to sign the game off if I remember correctly, and I think they can be held personally responsible if anything dodgy is found out.

If you search for "UKGC Remote Technical standards" on google, you will be able to see all the stuff they are tested against. And all the standards they have to reach.

Favourite Trance track - Maybe Alex MORPH remix of Sun In The Winter. Was always a "safe" track in my sets for years.

I was born late 70s, so yes

 

[Siohmy]

Nope.. William Hill and Coral have these I believe (or at least used to...)

It will be stated in the rules

Sky Vegas as well. £250k max. It means that if you play DOA2 for example at their max bet of £3.60 the actual jackpot is a shade under 65,000x bet. Some way short of the games JP of 111,111x.

 

[JkG]

Yes, in regulated markets, games have to be certified as compliant. Also, someone internal (a personal licence holder) also has to sign the game off if I remember correctly, and I think they can be held personally responsible if anything dodgy is found out.

If you search for "UKGC Remote Technical standards" on google, you will be able to see all the stuff they are tested against. And all the standards they have to reach.

Favourite Trance track - Maybe Alex MORPH remix of Sun In The Winter. Was always a "safe" track in my sets for years.

I was born late 70s, so yes

Ok so why are VS blaming the games provider if the game was tested before launching. Why aren't they, the casino, responsible for crediting my win even though they are passing the buck (not to me ) to the games provider having to investigate an error before I can have my win credited to my account . I posted a description in the Online casinos forum just now of what has gone down since November 3rd. Bloody peed off I am.

I was born in 1980, I think my favourite is probably Nalin and Kane Beach all (original mix) and Delerium Silence (also original) circa 1995-1997

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok so why are VS blaming the games provider if the game was tested before launching. Why aren't they, the casino, responsible for crediting my win even though they are passing the buck (not to me ) to the games provider having to investigate an error before I can have my win credited to my account . I posted a description in the Online casinos forum just now of what has gone down since November 3rd. Bloody peed off I am.

I was born in 1980, I think my favourite is probably Nalin and Kane Beach all (original mix) and Delerium Silence (also original) circa 1995-1997

Because just because a game passes testing from a test lab does not guarantee that there are no faults. It just means that the games have been tested to the best of their ability.... the most testing is done on maths. As for other stuff, it is likely not as thoroughly tested

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok so why are VS blaming the games provider if the game was tested before launching. Why aren't they, the casino, responsible for crediting my win even though they are passing the buck (not to me ) to the games provider having to investigate an error before I can have my win credited to my account . I posted a description in the Online casinos forum just now of what has gone down since November 3rd. Bloody peed off I am.

I was born in 1980, I think my favourite is probably Nalin and Kane Beach all (original mix) and Delerium Silence (also original) circa 1995-1997

What was the fault?

 

[JkG]

What was the fault?

I posted here @trancemonkey

A problem with VS and their Game Provider.

 

[curremon]

@trancemonkey What kind of testing is done before slot can be released ? For example pragmatic play christmass carol ive now got bonus 11 times.. 6 times ive picked mystery and results have been 5 spins x1 every time.. 3 times ive done 10 spins 5x start and i end up 7x multiplier with 5x-10x win. 2times 5spins x10 and all 5 spins both times dead... WHAT IS THIS

 

[bamberfishcake]

@trancemonkey What kind of testing is done before slot can be released ? For example pragmatic play christmass carol ive now got bonus 11 times.. 6 times ive picked mystery and results have been 5 spins x1 every time.. 3 times ive done 10 spins 5x start and i end up 7x multiplier with 5x-10x win. 2times 5spins x10 and all 5 spins both times dead... WHAT IS THIS

I took the random bonus and got a 10 spins with a x10 starting. The return was so poor ive forgotten it. Pragmatic slots (for the most part) continue to bemuse me and i feel your pain.

 

[trancemonkey]

@trancemonkey What kind of testing is done before slot can be released ? For example pragmatic play christmass carol ive now got bonus 11 times.. 6 times ive picked mystery and results have been 5 spins x1 every time.. 3 times ive done 10 spins 5x start and i end up 7x multiplier with 5x-10x win. 2times 5spins x10 and all 5 spins both times dead... WHAT IS THIS

Test labs dont test whether a game plays well or not. They just test that it hits its correct RTP and doesn't do anything illegal.

Sounds like either very bad luck or shit maths....

 

[Toshy]

When you say illegal, do you have any good stories about things that have went wrong or if any developers have been caught?

 

[trancemonkey]

When you say illegal, do you have any good stories about things that have went wrong or if any developers have been caught?

Check out the story of Sheriff Gaming...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Amongst others, they were rigging their jackpots so they couldn't be won OR were won by friends and family.

 

[Toshy]

Always wondered if anyone was able to pass the restrictions in place. Must be very very low but during my worst days thought it was every slot

 

[trancemonkey]

Alot of casinos have £250.000 as max wins (minus progressive) in any slot game, I tend to avoid those casinos as miracles could happen

Under well regulated jurisdictions, its very hard nowadays to get away with anything...
Avoid Curacao casinos therefore...

 

[Siohmy]

Test labs dont test whether a game plays well or not. They just test that it hits its correct RTP and doesn't do anything illegal.

Sounds like either very bad luck or shit maths....

So shit maths then.

 

[SnakeFood]

One person's shit maths is another's dream game.

 

[wesleyhoulihan]

Hi @trancemonkey , have a question about RTPs, not sure if it has already been answered.

When a brand new slot is released, the RTP they put on it - how is that calculated? I'm talking about modern day slots here that may have complex and highly volatile payout structures. Is it done by a sum of probability of every individual outcome or is it arrived at through testing? If by testing, is that testing by manufacturer or auditors? Can a manufacturer just say 'this slot has an RTP of 96%' and then as long as the return falls within a certain range after a reasonable number of spins (is there a testing minimal?), the slot would be approved and they would be allowed to label it with the 96% they said.

I'm just thinking that, because of how high the volatility of some of the games are these days, how the RTP that is quoted could deviate from the 'true' RTP from 1 million spins to the next 1 million spins could be the difference in a game being a 96% RTP and a 96.5% RTP.

Last question...I presume slots that are released using the same algorithm are not tested in the same way? ie. Its the algorithm that gets tested rather than the slot. Example that springs to mind is the endless Pragmatic slots that are released with a 96.5% RTP - is that just the same algorithm with a different front end?

Apologies...quite a lot in that!

 

[neon claws]

Hi @trancemonkey , have a question about RTPs, not sure if it has already been answered.

When a brand new slot is released, the RTP they put on it - how is that calculated? I'm talking about modern day slots here that may have complex and highly volatile payout structures. Is it done by a sum of probability of every individual outcome or is it arrived at through testing? If by testing, is that testing by manufacturer or auditors? Can a manufacturer just say 'this slot has an RTP of 96%' and then as long as the return falls within a certain range after a reasonable number of spins (is there a testing minimal?), the slot would be approved and they would be allowed to label it with the 96% they said.

I'm just thinking that, because of how high the volatility of some of the games are these days, how the RTP that is quoted could deviate from the 'true' RTP from 1 million spins to the next 1 million spins could be the difference in a game being a 96% RTP and a 96.5% RTP.

Last question...I presume slots that are released using the same algorithm are not tested in the same way? ie. Its the algorithm that gets tested rather than the slot. Example that springs to mind is the endless Pragmatic slots that are released with a 96.5% RTP - is that just the same algorithm with a different front end?

Apologies...quite a lot in that!

Same maths but reskinned doesn't need recertifying.
RTP is tested over billions of spins.. whether or not a monster hit is achieved on all that makes very little difference.

 

[Kroffe]

@trancemonkey
I thought this kind of thing was not allowed.

Not all of them are easy to make out, but you can easily tell the $100 and the 8 (8 is the lowest amount of freespins, so if its single digit its 8) free games were going to drop in next spin, which they did.
And it wasnt a fluke, its for every spin.
I thought all outcomes were supposed to be possible for each separate spin.
This is from the basegame.

 

[trancemonkey]

@trancemonkey
I thought this kind of thing was not allowed.

Not all of them are easy to make out, but you can easily tell the $100 and the 8 (8 is the lowest amount of freespins, so if its single digit its 8) free games were going to drop in next spin, which they did.
And it wasnt a fluke, its for every spin.
I thought all outcomes were supposed to be possible for each separate spin.
This is from the basegame.

View attachment 149411

View attachment 149412

Persistence games are allowed in most markets... this is classed as a persistence feature. We do a lot of these...

 

[Kroffe]

Persistence games are allowed in most markets... this is classed as a persistence feature. We do a lot of these...

Persistence games = fancy way of saying not random.

How many spins ahead are games allowed to be predetermined then, is it just the one or limitless?

 

[trancemonkey]

Persistence games = fancy way of saying not random.

How many spins ahead are games allowed to be predetermined then, is it just the one or limitless?

So, the rules are still valid - anything that is shown as "coming soon" needs to still be randomly determined - for example, i could have a game where every 20 spins, the next "feature" in a list activates, and i show you the list. What is shown on the list needs to be randomly determined, and the outcome when i activate the feature still needs to be random (if it's a feature). I agree that to a layman, this might seem weird - but it's still compliant and still passes all the tests required...

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi @trancemonkey , have a question about RTPs, not sure if it has already been answered.

When a brand new slot is released, the RTP they put on it - how is that calculated? I'm talking about modern day slots here that may have complex and highly volatile payout structures. Is it done by a sum of probability of every individual outcome or is it arrived at through testing? If by testing, is that testing by manufacturer or auditors? Can a manufacturer just say 'this slot has an RTP of 96%' and then as long as the return falls within a certain range after a reasonable number of spins (is there a testing minimal?), the slot would be approved and they would be allowed to label it with the 96% they said.

I'm just thinking that, because of how high the volatility of some of the games are these days, how the RTP that is quoted could deviate from the 'true' RTP from 1 million spins to the next 1 million spins could be the difference in a game being a 96% RTP and a 96.5% RTP.

Last question...I presume slots that are released using the same algorithm are not tested in the same way? ie. Its the algorithm that gets tested rather than the slot. Example that springs to mind is the endless Pragmatic slots that are released with a 96.5% RTP - is that just the same algorithm with a different front end?

Apologies...quite a lot in that!

The RTP is either calculated (in Excel for example) or simulated (if the game can't be calculated). When calculated, the maximum possible number of outcomes is known, so this RTP is precise over the cycle of the game. Where a game is simulated (for example, Bonanza, where in theory the free spins could go on forever, and so could the multiplier) we normally run a huge number of games (in the billions) to determine as best we can what the RTP is. A test lab will then do their own simulations (they write there own simulation using the data given) to prove that they also get the same RTP - if they match, they certify the game for that RTP. You can't say "this slot is 96%" unless it is exactly 96% and you have that certified.

The RTP is a theoretical number based on a very large number of games, so while this is what the game is "aiming for", in small play sessions, it could vary wildly - and of course, the higher the volatility, the more this varies. But yes, it could vary by 0.5% over a million games for sure on a high volatility game...

If you release a game that uses exactly the same maths (and the test lab would checksum / diff the maths files to prove they are the same), then the testing is much less onerous and simpler - though it still has to be certified and tested.

 

[Kroffe]

So, the rules are still valid - anything that is shown as "coming soon" needs to still be randomly determined - for example, i could have a game where every 20 spins, the next "feature" in a list activates, and i show you the list. What is shown on the list needs to be randomly determined, and the outcome when i activate the feature still needs to be random (if it's a feature). I agree that to a layman, this might seem weird - but it's still compliant and still passes all the tests required...

How many spins ahead am i allowed to have a predetermined result?
Can i show a list of say 50 outcomes with a predetermined result as long as the outcomes were randomly determined at the beginning?

 

[trancemonkey]

How many spins ahead am i allowed to have a predetermined result?
Can i show a list of say 50 outcomes with a predetermined result as long as the outcomes were randomly determined at the beginning?

Yes I believe so as long as the list is visible to the player and the list is populated randomly and the game rules are clear about what is happening.

 

[Kroffe]

Yes I believe so as long as the list is visible to the player and the list is populated randomly and the game rules are clear about what is happening.

Kind of stretching the meaning of the word random imo.

 

[dionysus]

Kind of stretching the meaning of the word random imo.

View attachment 149446

tbf
As players become savvier, it's random to a 'relative value of random'
there's life analogies > stories you tell children (simplified) V ok, now here's it in advanced terms

ex: the Earth is round > the Earth is an ellipsoid > Earth is a geoid/oblate spheroid (roughly speaking)

 

[paul7388]

tbf
As players become savvier, it's random to a 'relative value of random'
there's life analogies > stories you tell children (simplified) V ok, now here's it in advanced terms

ex: the Eath is round > the Earth is an ellipsoid > Earth is a geoid/oblate spheroid (roughly speaking)

WTF. Use all the fancy words you want but I heard the Earth is actually flat.

 

[dionysus]

The nice thing about the forum, is weve a resident guru - @trancemonkey - in that he's willing, as able to address Qs, and @Halvor, as I understand, to have good to great grasp.
I'm , perhaps, privvy to Qs and answers (pre-staff), but far, far from the expert and very maths-weak but get the fundamentals

Theyre both approachable FWIW

 

[Kroffe]

WTF. Use all the fancy words you want but I heard the Earth is actually flat.

Thats what i got from what he said aswell.
The f*ck is he on about the earth being a blipsoid or whatever.

 

[dionysus]

Thats what i got from what he said aswell.
The f*ck is he on about the earth being a blipsoid or whatever.

 

[Cheatingg]

Hi

How does lowering the RTP works? For example Casino thinks now that its good idea to lower the RTP from 96% to 94% does they have kind of program to enter the right % and just press the Enter and now that slot running on 94% .. Or Casino has to contact provider to do it for them? Or how this things actually working?

 

[Halvor]

Hi

How does lowering the RTP works? For example Casino thinks now that its good idea to lower the RTP from 96% to 94% does they have kind of program to enter the right % and just press the Enter and now that slot running on 94% .. Or Casino has to contact provider to do it for them? Or how this things actually working?

Not all game providers offer for more RTP settings. And the casino themselves can not alter the setup of a game. So in these cases the RTP will not be possible to alter at all.

In instances where there are multiple RTP settings for a game, the casino would need to change the game version they host, they cant simply jump between RTP in a second, or move some ledger that changes it to whatever they want. The game will have been certified for one or more specific RTP versions.