Are Bet365 cheating on their game(s)?

thelawnet · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">Here are the 'table games'<br /> <br /> <a href="http://games.bet365.com/home?groupid=TableGames" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">http://games.bet365.com/home?groupid=TableGames</a><br /> <br /> on Bet365's Games site.<br /> <br /> Note the game 'Three of a Kind'<br /> <br /> The rules for this game are here<br /> <br /> <a href="http://games.bet365.com/GamesHelp.aspx?gameId=THREEOFAKIND" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">http://games.bet365.com/GamesHelp.aspx?gameId=THREEOFAKIND</a><br /> <br /> Basically 3 cards are dealt, each is either a 9, T, J, Q, K or A, and the object of the game is to get 3 cards the same, e.g., 3 9s. The cards are drawn from three separate decks of six cards, and having discarded a given card, it can be drawn again.<br /> <br /> There is no strategy - after the deal, if two cards match, and the 3rd is different, the third is discarded and drawn again. If all three are the same, all 3 are held, and if all three are different, then no cards are held and all three cards drawn again.<br /> <br /> The game pays only for 3 of a kinds, according to the following paytable:<br /> <br /> 9's - 3<br /> 10's - 5<br /> j's - 8<br /> q's - 10<br /> k's - 25<br /> a's - 100<br /> <br /> Now it doesn't take a genius to figure out that with six cards to choose from, the odds of any given 3 of a kind on the deal should be 1 / (6*6*6) = 1/216. That means the hand '3 Aces on the deal' pays 100/216 = 0.46. Quite a lot. <br /> <br /> It doesn't take much more genius to figure out that the odds of 2 As on the deal is:<br /> <br /> 1/6 * 1/6 * 5/6 + <br /> 1/6 * 5/6 * 1/6 + <br /> 5/6 * 1/6 * 1/6<br /> <br /> Which is obviously 15/216.<br /> <br /> So the odds of getting 2 Aces on the deal is 15/216. And if you have 2 Aces on the deal, then the odds of getting a third is 1 in 6 (discarded cards can be redealt).<br /> <br /> Which pays 100. So the payout for 2 Aces on the deal is 15/216 * 1/6 * 100 = 1.157<br /> <br /> Now obviously there's a big problem here. We expect the total payout of the game to be less than 1.<br /> <br /> But we find that the payout for the hand '2 Aces on the deal' ALONE is already more than 1.<br /> <br /> So either bet365 are going to lose money like they're going out of business.<br /> <br /> OR.....<br /> <br /> They are cheating.<br /> <br /> A quick test session shows it's the latter.<br /> <br /> I took the first six hands where I was dealt three different cards on the deal, and counted the number of Aces. I was playing 25 lines, so that's 75 cards per draw. In six hands, therefore, 450 cards are dealt, and you'd expect 450/6 = 75 of those to be Aces. <br /> <br /> How many did I get? 24. The chances of this being from a fair deck is 1 in 4,498,393,408,389.<br /> <br /> Quite plainly the game cheats.<br /> <br /> This is disgraceful and the game needs to be pulled and all losses refunded, the game is cheating by design, this is not a programming error, they designed it to cheat the player, this is obvious from the paytable.<br /> <br /> Also in breach of their Regulator's Code of Practice, which states:<br /> <br /> 'All licence holders are required to publish their rules where they are visible and accessible to all those who visit or use their facilities for gambling. ‘Rules’ will be regarded as the terms and conditions of the gambling as well as the rules by which any particular game or activity has to be undertaken.'<br /> <br /> 'Licence holders are required to expect that where customers may reasonably assume rules to be well established, understood or unchanged, but they are not, due emphasis will be given to those variant rules. Licence holders should monitor customer interpretation of rules and be prepared to make appropriate amendments where misunderstandings occur'<br /> <br /> 'A licence holder should not implement game designs or features that may reasonably be expected to mislead the customer about the likelihood of particular results occurring.'</div>

GrandMaster · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">Well spotted. I played 50 games in free mode, here is the list of initial hands I got:<br /> 9XJ, 999, J99, J9A, JX9, JXQ, XXK, JKX, 9KX, JX9, 9J9, XJ9, J99, 9Q9, QX9, KQ9, J99, QXQ, K9A, 9XK, 9JQ, XQQ, J9Q, Q99, 9JX, JXQ, J9X, A99, JJX, 99J, 9QJ, KXJ, JX9, 9XX, X9X, X9K, 9XA, K9X, QJJ, J9K, JXK, XXJ, 9AJ, J9X, J9J, 9JX, QXJ, AXJ, A9J, 9X9 (X means 10).<br /> The frequencies of the cards are<br /> 9: 48, X: 34, J: 35, Q: 15, K: 11, A; 7. The chi-squared value is 53.2. Under the assumption that the cards are drawn with equal probability and independently, the probability of a chi-squared value of 53.2 or higher is about 0.0000000003. Therefore I am satisfied that the cards are not drawn with equal probability.</div>

Nifty29 · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">Nice work gentlemen.<br /> <br /> Now THIS is the kind of cheating claim I can believe I.e. coupled with stats and odds and informed analysis. Keep it up <img src="/forums/styles/default/casinomeister/smilies/thumbsup.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbsup :thumbsup:" data-shortname=":thumbsup:" /></div>

chayton · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">Is this a game that's unique to Bet365 or is it something available elsewhere?</div>

Pinababy69 · Feb 25, 2012

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KasinoKing · Feb 25, 2012

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thelawnet · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="KasinoKing" data-source="post: 474033" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474033" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474033">KasinoKing said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I checked that "Rules" page - and I can't see where it says either that the cards are drawn from 6 decks - or that they are drawn randomly with an equal chance of each card being drawn.<br /> Where did you get these two key bits of information from?<br /> <br /> KK </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> I didn't say they were drawn from six decks. I said there are three separate decks of six cards.<br /> <br /> You can see during play that there is only one card of each denomination.<br /> <br /> 9h<br /> Tc<br /> Jd<br /> Qs<br /> Kd<br /> Ac<br /> <br /> Also that the cards re-appear on the draw.<br /> <br /> Now if there was for instance a 9s, 9c as well, but only the Ac, that would be fair enough.<br /> <br /> But the game clearly represents that the 9 is only the 9h, the T only the Tc, etc.<br /> <br /> Considering this is a table game, it's not justifiable.</div>

GrandMaster · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="KasinoKing" data-source="post: 474033" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474033" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474033">KasinoKing said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I checked that "Rules" page - and I can't see where it says either that the cards are drawn from 6 decks - or that they are drawn randomly with an equal chance of each card being drawn.<br /> Where did you get these two key bits of information from?<br /> <br /> KK </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>The evidence clear shows that the cards are not drawn with equal probabilities, this is an important feature of the game, so the rules are misleading by omission. The blackjack rules don't state either that cards have equal probabilities, would you consider it acceptable if low cards dealt were dealt with a higher probability at the expense of 10s, Js, Qs and Ks?</div>

Mousey · Feb 25, 2012

The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool. -- Stephen King

spoton · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">Couldn't agree more with grandmaster. One should be able to assume that the cards are dealt randomly from the deck(s) of cards without it being written in the same way one should be able to asume the clothes sold in the levis store are real, unless one play at a casino being run by some mobsters or goto the levis store on the streets in Turkey.<br /> <br /> Good find guys, will be fun to what excuses bet365 comes up with.</div>

KasinoKing · Feb 25, 2012

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Simmo! · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="thelawnet" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> thelawnet said: </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> The cards are drawn from three separate decks of six cards </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> KK just asked what I was going to: "<i>how do you know each deck has only 6 cards in it</i>?"<br /> <br /> It's a good spot, but it strikes me as so obvious a mistake that a deck can't possibly only have 6 cards so wherever it says that is clearly misleading. In fact even if they didn't say that, if what you say about each card being of one specific suit is correct (no reason not to believe you - just never played it) then it's arguably misleading anyway because there is more than 1 card of the same suit in any given deck which obviously doesn't happen.</div>

Casinomeister · Feb 25, 2012

“Too much of anything is bad, but too much good whiskey is barely enough.”

~ Mark Twain

BustedFlush · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">The OP got his odds a bit wrong when he stated "You don't have to be a genius to work out 1/6x1/6x1/6 (216-1)was the odds of getting 3 of a kind" - that would be correct if you nominated say '3 aces' in advance, but the actual odds are 1/1x1/6x1/6 (36-1) i.e. only the last 2 should be the same as the first for ANY 3 of a kind win. You would expect randomly 1 or 2 3 of a kind deals in 50 goes, 3 in a 100 goes.</div>

KasinoKing · Feb 25, 2012

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spoton · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">I asked bet365s customer service rep about it. He told me it worked like a table game, and guaranteed it was 100% random like all their games. He couldnt guarantee any refunds though if i played it and it was rigged.</div>

GrandMaster · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="BustedFlush" data-source="post: 474088" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474088" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474088">BustedFlush said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> The OP got his odds a bit wrong when he stated "You don't have to be a genius to work out 1/6x1/6x1/6 (216-1)was the odds of getting 3 of a kind" - that would be correct if you nominated say '3 aces' in advance, but the actual odds are 1/1x1/6x1/6 (36-1) i.e. only the last 2 should be the same as the first for ANY 3 of a kind win. You would expect randomly 1 or 2 3 of a kind deals in 50 goes, 3 in a 100 goes. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote>He wrote "the odds of any <b>given</b> 3 of a kind", so he was correct.</div>

BustedFlush · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="GrandMaster" data-source="post: 474096" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474096" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474096">GrandMaster said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> He wrote "the odds of any <b>given</b> 3 of a kind", so he was correct. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> The 'given' clinches it!! My mistake<img src="/forums/styles/default/casinomeister/smilies/frown.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" data-shortname=":(" /> I didn't notice that word as I encounter that (would be) mistake regularly when people mention odds, viz-a-viz overlooking the 1/1 part.<br /> <br /> It appears we are all wrong, as it clearly isn't 216/1 on that game as the lower numbers are heavily weighted. Probably 50/1 for the 9's and 1000+ for aces.....</div>

thelawnet · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="Casinomeister" data-source="post: 474077" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474077" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474077">Casinomeister said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I've already given Bet365's rep a heads up about this thread. I wouldn't a response until Monday since he may not be available during the weekend.<br /> <br /> I haven't looked at the game (or at this thread too closely) as of yet; is this a Bet365 exclusive game, or is this game common throughout the Playtech platform? </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> The Bet365 games site is not the same as the casino site, and none of the games are powered by Playtech.<br /> <br /> That said, I think it is their own game, which might explain why it is so 'special'.</div>

Simmo! · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="thelawnet" data-source="post: 474131" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474131" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474131">thelawnet said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> The Bet365 games site is not the same as the casino site, and none of the games are powered by Playtech. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> Actually some of them are but I agree I don't think this one is.<br /> <br /> Can you point us at the place where it says each deck only has 6 cards thelawnet? Seems a pretty crucial piece of the jigsaw IMO.<br /> <br /> Cheers,<br /> <br /> Simmo!</div>

rainmaker · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="thelawnet" data-source="post: 474131" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474131" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474131">thelawnet said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> The Bet365 games site is not the same as the casino site, and none of the games are powered by Playtech.<br /> <br /> That said, I think it is their own game, which might explain why it is so 'special'. </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> Hey <img src="/forums/styles/default/casinomeister/smilies/smile.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-shortname=":)" /><br /> <br /> I think the game "three of a kind" is made by <a href="http://www.gtechg2.com/" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener"><b>GTECH G2</b></a> (part of the Lottomatica Group).<br /> <br /> Maybe <img src="/forums/styles/default/casinomeister/smilies/cool.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" data-shortname=":cool:" /></div>

rainmaker · Feb 25, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><span style="color: #FFFFFF">.</span><br /> <br /> From their (GTECH G2) "games library" :<br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/attachments/three-of-a-kind-jpg.31679/" target="_blank"><img src="https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/data/attachments/4/4196-0544a0554e1b28804f2fde0483fe05e8.jpg" class="bbImage " style="" alt="Three of a Kind.JPG" title="Three of a Kind.JPG" width="100" height="60" loading="lazy" /></a></div>

Simmo! · Feb 26, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="rainmaker" data-source="post: 474139" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474139" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474139">rainmaker said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> <span style="color: #FFFFFF">.</span><br /> <br /> From their (GTECH G2) "games library" </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> I've renamed the thread sightly to make it a question rather than a statement for 2 reasons:<br /> <br /> 1) The game appears to be from a 3rd party provider, not Bet365<br /> 2) We've yet to see where it states each deck has only 6 cards<br /> <br /> (If and when it's proven I'll gladly change it back.)</div>

Nifty29 · Feb 26, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper">Do we know the advertised RTP?<br /> <br /> Would it make a difference if the actual payback was around 98%? Even if it was artificially produced? After all, you would still have a decent payback at the end of the day.</div>

thelawnet · Feb 26, 2012

<div class="bbWrapper"><blockquote data-attributes="" data-quote="Simmo!" data-source="post: 474144" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-title"> <a href="/forums/goto/post?id=474144" class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" rel="nofollow" data-xf-click="attribution" data-content-selector="#post-474144">Simmo! said:</a> </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-content"> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent js-expandContent "> I've renamed the thread sightly to make it a question rather than a statement for 2 reasons:<br /> <br /> 1) The game appears to be from a 3rd party provider, not Bet365<br /> 2) We've yet to see where it states each deck has only 6 cards<br /> <br /> (If and when it's proven I'll gladly change it back.) </div> <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink js-expandLink"><a role="button" tabindex="0">Click to expand...</a></div> </div> </blockquote><br /> Really?<br /> <br /> 1) Ok it is, but that doesn't change the fact that they are responsible for offering it. If Walmart sell Chinese cancer-causing toys, or something like that, the responsibility is still with Walmart. This makes no difference at all. Also, best I can see, this games is unique to Bet365, and it's done in their colours and is quite likely designed FOR them. <br /> <br /> 2) Meh. It doesn't matter how many cards are in the deck. There could be 6, 66, 196, it makes no difference to the fact that you cannot weight cards (not without cheating). Let's imagine this was done on the street, by those men with shills and a fast sales patter. They show you a 9, T, J, Q, K and A, and tell you you get £100 if you get 3 As. What they don't tell you is that there are (for example) 12 9s, 10 Ts, 8 Js, 6 Qs, 4 Ks, and only 2 As in each deck. Is this game a scam? Of course it is. <br /> <br /> There are no casino games where there are a different number of each denomination. It's cheating, no two ways about it.<br /> <br /> You might as well say that a dice game using a dice with two ones on it is not cheating, because they never said it was a fair dice with numbers one-six on, you just assumed it. There is no precedent, no justification for weighting cards. NONE.</div>

Are Bet365 cheating on their game(s)?

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