3Dice slot design

[Rusty]

Where did you get that bit of info from?
I thought the free-spin reels were the same as normal spins on Isis.

I didn't.
If you know otherwise I will accept I was wrong as I have rarely played Isis and I was making an assumption.
My bad.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[3Dice]

Thanks for that explanation Enzo which is perfectly acceptable ( to me at least I hope MG agree) but I am not sure how Tut reel layout can have no resemblance to the reel layout of Isis.

Must it not have a pretty close resemblance since the paytable is exactly the same which surely implies the probabilities of each win are the same and therefore the number of times each symbol is represented on each reel?

If the probabilities of each win are different then that obviously begs the question, why is the paytable the same?

Hi Rusty,

Why are you assuming the reel layout must be similar ? The paytable only determines the payout - the reel layout determines the frequency each hit will naturally occur with.

Just as a mini-sample, imagine a single-reel slot with the following paytable :

jackpot - pays 10x bet
cherry - pays 2x bet
lemon - pays nothing

machine A : reel strip with 31 symbols, 1 jp, 10 cherry's and 20 lemons.
RTP : 1/31 * 10 + 10/31 * 2 = 96.8%

machine B : reel strip with 33 symbols, 2 jp's, 6 cherry's and 25 lemons.
RTP : 2/33 * 10 + 6/33 * 2 = 96.9%

So there you go, two machines using the same paytable, even producing almost the same RTP, but machine A low variant, machine B high ...

Do you mean that just the order of the symbols on the reel has no resemblance?

Also since MG have different reel layouts for freespins and this has an important bearing on RTP has this aspect been incorporated into Tut as well?

Finally is the RTP of the two games the same?

Thanks in advance.

Tut doesn't use a different reel layout during freespins (and, to my knowledge, neither does Isis). The Tut RTP is 95 something, I wouldn't know about Isis.

Kindest regards,

Enzo

 

[An_Alien]

You said Rival - but we all know you meant MG!

I know there is another software called Rival but I was using the word itself here. One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor.

There are many microgaming slots that do use different reel layouts during free spins. I have never liked this because it's misleading. A game like Mad Hatters allows you to select a symbol that becomes a Wild during free spins. With the different reel layout the symbol you selected appears less frequently.

There are also slots such as Moonshine which use a much more lucrative reel layout during free spins.

Thanks for that explanation Enzo which is perfectly acceptable ( to me at least I hope MG agree)

Since ideas can not be copyrighted any casino can legally use the exact same game even if they did not design the original. The only thing that has to be different is the artistic impression. It would be possible to patent a slot design thats very unique, but I imagine this being a long and expensive process with not much reward.

 

[KasinoKing]

I know there is another software called Rival but I was using the word itself here. One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor.

Oooops - my bad!
(Note to self: Must learn to read slower...!)

A game like Mad Hatters allows you to select a symbol that becomes a Wild during free spins. With the different reel layout the symbol you selected appears less frequently.

I've not analysed this one, but my guess is the reel strips are the same in free-spins; it's just that because you only get 10 free-spins and you desperately want your wilds to show up that it FEELS like there are less.
Or do you have evidence the strips are different?

There are also slots such as Moonshine which use a much more lucrative reel layout during free spins.

Now that one I do know about!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I find it a little surprising that I don't think I've ever seen a screenie of anyone hitting the 5 wilds during free-spins even though the chance is once in 9,240 as opposed to once in 60,515 in normal spins - even I have hit that one!

KK

 

[rockycatt]

ok after reading responses is it safe to say that on 3 dice that its a film strip spinning likeness

instead of individual tile"s spinning just wondering R C

 

[Jasminebed]

I find it a little surprising that I don't think I've ever seen a screenie of anyone hitting the 5 wilds during free-spins even though the chance is once in 9,240 as opposed to once in 60,515 in normal spins - even I have hit that one!

KK

Here's one of Wilds during freespins.... alas, no multiplier though

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/5-scatter-5-wilds-screenshots.14243/

 

[Nifty29]

Here's one of Wilds during freespins.... alas, no multiplier though

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/5-scatter-5-wilds-screenshots.14243/

That sucks Jas....1x is BS!!

I hit it on 4x once it paid a heap...don't have screenie though

 

[An_Alien]

I've not analysed this one, but my guess is the reel strips are the same in free-spins; it's just that because you only get 10 free-spins and you desperately want your wilds to show up that it FEELS like there are less.
Or do you have evidence the strips are different?

I also thought that so I began to count how many times on avergae the Wild I chose would appear "in view" across all 5 reels during free spins. It was alway less frequent than if you counted the amount of times the same symbol appears during a set of 10 normal spins.

This is not evidence of course but i was confident by the results.

I think this many also be true for Avalon, but i've not played Avalon enough to properly test it

 

[KasinoKing]

I find it a little surprising that I don't think I've ever seen a screenie of anyone hitting the 5 wilds during free-spins...

Thanks to this thread I went & had a go on Moonshine tonight; after getting the feature several times on 50p spins & making about 40 quid I decided to have a few high-rollers. 25 spins at £2.50 gave no features, but when I upped it to the next level I hit it on my 3rd spin, got 16 spins @ x3 and NEARLY got that elusive hit on my very first spin! (See below)

Not complaining though - ended up with £457.65! (will post final result in Winner Screenshots)

 

[An_Alien]

Thanks to this thread I went & had a go on Moonshine tonight; after getting the feature several times on 50p spins & making about 40 quid I decided to have a few high-rollers. 25 spins at £2.50 gave no features, but when I upped it to the next level I hit it on my 3rd spin, got 16 spins @ x3 and NEARLY got that elusive hit on my very first spin! (See below)

Not complaining though - ended up with £457.65! (will post final result in Winner Screenshots)

WTG KK!

If only it was a cryptologic slot that would have been an active payline Still a nice hit though

 

[Rusty]

Hi Rusty,

Why are you assuming the reel layout must be similar ? The paytable only determines the payout - the reel layout determines the frequency each hit will naturally occur with.

Just as a mini-sample, imagine a single-reel slot with the following paytable :

jackpot - pays 10x bet
cherry - pays 2x bet
lemon - pays nothing

machine A : reel strip with 31 symbols, 1 jp, 10 cherry's and 20 lemons.
RTP : 1/31 * 10 + 10/31 * 2 = 96.8%

machine B : reel strip with 33 symbols, 2 jp's, 6 cherry's and 25 lemons.
RTP : 2/33 * 10 + 6/33 * 2 = 96.9%

So there you go, two machines using the same paytable, even producing almost the same RTP, but machine A low variant, machine B high ...



Tut doesn't use a different reel layout during freespins (and, to my knowledge, neither does Isis). The Tut RTP is 95 something, I wouldn't know about Isis.

Kindest regards,

Enzo

LOL what you are asking is why do I assume variance should be reflected in the paytable - that is obvious to me at least.

Do you not think variance should be represented by the paytable?

Also if you have designed a completely new slot which is what you are saying, then why copy the paytable?
You did say you needed a quick fix design to base a slot on did you not but now you are saying it is a completely different design and the paytable irrelevant?

 

[3Dice]

LOL what you are asking is why do I assume variance should be reflected in the paytable - that is obvious to me at least.

Do you not think variance should be represented by the paytable?

Huh ? The paytable and game rules often give hints towards the variance. For example rules like expanding wilds, high multipliers in freespins etc all increase the variance while for example large amounts of paylines will decrease the variance.

Without the reel layout it is however impossible to get a complete picture, which is clearly illustrated by my sample.

I'm an advocate of actually displaying the variance (which we do for all our slots).

Also if you have designed a completely new slot which is what you are saying, then why copy the paytable?
You did say you needed a quick fix design to base a slot on did you not but now you are saying it is a completely different design and the paytable irrelevant?

A quick fix ? Designing a paytable is only a fraction of the work involved in building a slot machine. We were looking for a safe bet - versus doing our more experimental slots as first releases. No quick fix.

Kindest regards,

Enzo

 

[peterconnor]

The object of slot dice game is to break to bank. Includes 3 dice with images of different slot machine graphics on each side. Use your own currency, chips pretzels or peanuts for scoring. Just like the machines, the outcome of your roll determines. the payout.

 

[prindi]

Im a huge fan of both 3Dice and microgaming. I love tut but I have to say I hate Isis. Just out of curiousity when did Isis make its debut? I don't have a clue as I only play Isis if a casino offers me free spins on it.

 

[KasinoKing]

Just out of curiousity when did Isis make its debut?

I believe it was March 2006, with it's clone (Supe It Up) being released in July the same year.

KK

 

[Rusty]

Huh ? The paytable and game rules often give hints towards the variance. For example rules like expanding wilds, high multipliers in freespins etc all increase the variance while for example large amounts of paylines will decrease the variance.

Without the reel layout it is however impossible to get a complete picture, which is clearly illustrated by my sample.

I'm an advocate of actually displaying the variance (which we do for all our slots).



A quick fix ? Designing a paytable is only a fraction of the work involved in building a slot machine. We were looking for a safe bet - versus doing our more experimental slots as first releases. No quick fix.

Kindest regards,

Enzo

What don't you understand?

If a slot has an original paytable that is representative of the probability of each outcome, changing the probability of outcome without changing the paytable will result in a less accurate representation.



You keep mentioning your example so I will use it to prove what I am saying is correct.


machine A : reel strip with 31 symbols, 1 jp, 10 cherry's and 20 lemons.
RTP : 1/31 * 10 + 10/31 * 2 = 96.8%

machine B : reel strip with 33 symbols, 2 jp's, 6 cherry's and 25 lemons.
RTP : 2/33 * 10 + 6/33 * 2 = 96.9%

Maybe it has escaped your attention but the jackpot in the second slot now occurs twice as often as the original yet the paytable does not in anyway reflect this huge change in variance.

Basically in the first paytable the probability of outcome is reasonably reflected by the cherry paying 10xless than the jackpot because it is ten times more likely to occur.

Now lets see what has happened since you changed the number of instances and variance in the second slot.
The Jackpot is now only 3 times less likely than the cherry but it is still reflected as being ten times more unlikely.

What would happen if the slot was repeatedly copied but the variance changed and the paytable kept the same would be a paytable that was completely irrelevant to the variance of the slot.

Here is my example and challenge to you.

20 symbols.
10 x numpties pay zero
6 x cherries pay 1
3 x melons pay 2
1x jackpot pays 6

RTP 90%

Now try changing the variance (number of instances of each symbol)but without losing any accuracy reflected in the paytable.

I am not saying the paytable has to be an accurate representation of each probability of outcome but I am saying the closer it is the better the design.

What really baffles me, other than you not understanding the principle I am conveying to you is why you would keep the original paytable the same yet change the design to an extent where this is basically a totally different slot with very different variance.

Originally you said you wanted designs that players were familiar with so I naturally assumed the reel layout would be similar along with the paytable.
You then went on to explain the reel layout and variance had little resemblance to Isis-how is this having a design that players are familiar with?
Oh you just meant the paytable was the same?

 

[refre]

What don't you understand?

If a slot has an original paytable that is representative of the probability of each outcome, changing the probability of outcome without changing the paytable will result in a less accurate representation.

Who said the paytable reflects the probability of outcomes?
It may reflect that some combinations hit more often than others (low pay vs high pay), but thats about it. You can not deduce from the paytable how often you'll hit the various combinations.

You may be able to make an educated guess after playing for some time, but not by looking at the paytable alone.


Freddy

 

[Rusty]

Who said the paytable reflects the probability of outcomes?
It may reflect that some combinations hit more often than others (low pay vs high pay), but thats about it. You can not deduce from the paytable how often you'll hit the various combinations.

You may be able to make an educated guess after playing for some time, but not by looking at the paytable alone.


Freddy

Is it a disease?

I already stated it is accepted that paytables do not have to accurately reflect the probability of outcome but would you want to play a slot where the paytable is completely non reflective of the probabilities?

It is just a matter of design - It is preferable that the paytable be intuitive of how the slot may play and how much more likely each outcome is than the next.

Consider that in properly regulated jurisdictions it is necessary to inform the player of the likelihood of the event they are betting on, except where this is obvious such as throwing a six on a dice.

Slots are somewhat of an exception but I dare say a complaint against a particularly disingenuous design would be upheld.