Resolved 32red VS Rado16 (2100 Euro dispute)

[Rado16]

what 32 red is doing is a forgery! first they tried to amend their TC. Now they do something even worse- they forge my gameplay! I realy need help on this one.

 

[winbig]

I repeat- I one that hand. It was a big hand- 2100 eu. So I was all attention when I bet it. i remember all the cards which the dealer dealt.
And the hand that 32red presented - it is a totally different hand. They lie!

Maybe if you took a civil approach to this you might make faster (and better) progress? Calling people liars and accusing them of forgery isn't helping your case any.

If you really think you have a case, then by all means PAB: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/pab-rules/ and let Bryan/Max look into this themselves. To be honest, I'm not sure if they'll even take the case now because of the way you've presented yourself here in this thread out in the public...

Q: I have already, or would like to, post about my complaint on the message boards. Is that a good idea?
A: Generally speaking, no, it is not a good idea. It's a long story but it boils down to this: a PAB is a private negotiation process and it works because it gives the casino people the best possible opportunity to resolve your issue calmly and fairly in talks with professional industry people without the burden of external pressures or influence.

A message posted on the boards is quite the opposite situation in that it creates a very public public-relations issue that the casino people generally feel forced to contain, or ignore, as best they can.

Because of the pressures involved a forum post on a given issue will usually derail any PABs that are in progress on that issue, and this is why we advise that forum posts be withheld until the PAB process has had a chance to run it's course.

We reserve the right to discard any PAB that where that same issue has been posted to the boards. This relates to threads started by, or contributions to other threads by, the person who filed the PAB. This applies equally to posts made before or after the PAB was filed.

In other words in the case where the material was posted before the PAB was filed we will determine whether those posts would damage or thwart the PAB process before we decide if we will proceed with the PAB. In the case where the material was posted after the PAB was filed there is a very high probability that we will suspend or discard the PAB at that point.

Once we indicate that we are finished with a PAB the person who filed it is free to post about the issue as they see fit (all the usual Casinomeister Forum Rules are applicable).

But anyways, 32Red is a publicly traded company with shareholders...do you really think they're going to jeopardize that over a measly (to them) 2100?

 

[Pinababy69]

That all said, we will now take the time to resolve what is an unacceptable situation (given not only the above but the errors and time taken in getting to this stage) and I will back in contact before the end of the day with our solution.

Kind regards

Pat Harrison
Operations Director

32Red

Pat will be here to reply before the end of the day. I would hazard a guess that his reply will be a public one this time.

Good advice Winbig....bad situation, but let's see what he says, and give the guy a chance first. JMO.

 

[winbig]

Good advice Winbig....bad situation, but let's see what he says, and give the guy a chance first. JMO.

Of course we all want to give Pat a chance to present their side of things...but TBH I seriously doubt that the OP will listen to a word of what he has to say and this thread will continue to go nowhere.

 

[Darf]

Hi Radovan,

Thanks for your patience while I have been reviewing the various gaming server logs and video clips as supplied by our software providers.

According to the records on the gaming servers you connected to hand ID 2841 on 13th May 2009 at 13:15:27.207 and placed a bet of 2,100 on player to win. At this point, the connection between the bar code reader on the table and the gaming server has been dropped for whatever reason (this could be for a number of things; ISP issues, cabling problems, hardware problems, etc.). So, as far as the gaming server is concerned, it didnt generate any cards for that hand.

The video clip of this hand (attached for your reference) shows that the hand then played out to a TIE with both the Dealer and Player scoring 4. Obviously if the hand had played out without problem then you would have actually lost this bet. Under our rules the hand was made void owing to this technical fault and the stake for your losing bet was refunded. The details of the log on the gaming server can be seen in the attached word document

I know that this is completely at odds with the way that you believe that this hand played out but we have to rely on the integrity of the data that has been supplied by our software providers. The important and critical part of this data is that which is recorded by the gaming server, namely (in this case) that no cards were generated owing to the disconnection as previously explained.

That all said, we will now take the time to resolve what is an unacceptable situation (given not only the above but the errors and time taken in getting to this stage) and I will back in contact before the end of the day with our solution.

Kind regards

Pat Harrison
Operations Director

32Red
88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

Guys, here is the reply from Pat I received today. The is only one and the most important thing which I
want to say now: they say that that problem hand was finished as a TIE. THIS IS NOT TRUE ! I don't want
to discuss the other parts of Pat's email now but only this one because this is where the misinformation is.
It was not a TIE hand!!! The cards were this: for player King and 9, for banker 10 and 7. The video
which they attached is not the right video. Please, advise me what to do now!!!

Pitch a bitch and under NO circumstances shut your mouth when this is settled. Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[Pinababy69]

Of course we all want to give Pat a chance to present their side of things...but TBH I seriously doubt that the OP will listen to a word of what he has to say and this thread will continue to go nowhere.

You must be psycho....ooops, psychic Winbig, lol. Just to clarify, I sympathize with the OP as far as the situation itself. It should never have dragged on like this. However, just as you stated Win.....he's not helping himself by posting PM's, and calling people liars, etc. I also think MG should get just as much heat as 32Red. If they can't keep these games working as they should, and these are the types of issues we end up with....then yank em til they DO work properly.

That being said, I'm still waiting to see what Pat has to say, and what type of resolution is being offered....before I roast anyone over the spit. Sorry, but this casino (and Pat) deserve a tiny bit of leeway here, given their track record.

 

[just play]

Of course we all want to give Pat a chance to present their side of things...but TBH I seriously doubt that the OP will listen to a word of what he has to say and this thread will continue to go nowhere.

Why would this thread go nowhere? 32Red changed their TC and no one said anything about that....now they give Rado a hand dealt, but no time or date on it? Other people have posted the same "technical error".

No one else thinks this is fishy?

Just because it's 32Red, doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. In my eyes they are trying to get out of something anyway they can. If it was a different casino, everyone would be going mad, it's not fair.

 

[Darf]

To be honest, I'm not sure if they'll even take the case now because of the way you've presented yourself here in this thread out in the public...

Right or wrong this needs addressed? Everyone at the table doesn't have manners. It needs looking at without killing the messenger.

 

[Pinababy69]

Why would this thread go nowhere? 32Red changed their TC and no one said anything about that....now they give Rado a hand dealt, but no time or date on it? Other people have posted the same "technical error".

No one else thinks this is fishy?

Just because it's 32Red, doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. In my eyes they are trying to get out of something anyway they can. If it was a different casino, everyone would be going mad, it's not fair.

The T&C's were changed to match up with the $32 signup bonus JP, not to pull a fast one on the player. They weren't changed to retroactively apply that term to this player....they were changed because paragraph #9 was missing. Obviously Pat had been under the impression that the term WAS there, or else he wouldn't have quoted it. They corrected their own oversight/error, nothing more.

The player won't be held to any terms that weren't in place when he signed up and played (my understanding). Should they have left the terms as they were.....even though they were incorrect?

I don't think 32Red is trying to get out of anything. They haven't even posted their resolution, or potential resolution, so how can we know what they're offering to do?

And of course everyone makes mistakes...even the very best casinos out there make mistakes. It's how they resolve those mistakes that shows us what they're all about.

 

[winbig]

Why would this thread go nowhere? 32Red changed their TC and no one said anything about that....now they give Rado a hand dealt, but no time or date on it? Other people have posted the same "technical error".

No one else thinks this is fishy?

Just because it's 32Red, doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. In my eyes they are trying to get out of something anyway they can. If it was a different casino, everyone would be going mad, it's not fair.

As I stated in another thread, I could care less about 32Red, as I can't play there anymore, and therefore I have no vested interest in them.

The issue here is the hand in question, not the T&C change....maybe that could be brought up in the subsequent PAB, but I don't think that it has anything to do with the 2100 issue..

 

[Scooter7]

After reading Pat's indication that a tie produces a losing result for the Player wager, two things come to mind. First, I have trouble with the fact that the casino representative doesn't know how the game is played. Second, telling the player the bet would have lost and they're doing him a favour by refunding the wager would be a good plan IF (and that's a big IF) 32Red/MG/LiveDealer was trying to avoid paying the bet.

As for who is actually telling the truth here, I believe we will never know. Without seeing a video of the actual hand (with some sort of time stamp) that the OP will confirm is the actual hand, all of us 'third parties' can only form an opinion, not a conclusion.

I would like to know (but won't find out) several more bits of information:

How much of the OP's play is on baccarat?
What is the OP's average wager?
Was this way out of his normal range?
If so, I would start suspecting some sort of advantage play/bonus abuse scheme.

What is the frequency of technical errors for this live dealing house?
How often does it happen?
What size bets happen to be on the table when there is an error?
What were the answers to and resolutions of other, similar issues?
If the same video claiming a tie and inaccurate story about refunding what should have been a loss has been repeatedly offered, that would push me towards the OP's side of the story.

 

[Darf]

Goodwill can backfire, please don't bury the critical issues here, somthing is up silence speaks so loud.

 

[Darf]

I would like to know (but won't find out) several more bits of information:

.

Why not? I have read this board for years from several conitnents and have never seen it so weak. ASK, 32red will reply but so far it stinks and is down to the program.

they need to take the system to task ovr this I have never seen a 32red issue linger so long, I'll shut up now

 

[Rado16]

again excuse me for my emotionality. As I told before it is a big money for me. If it was let's say 100 eu- may be
I would behave different. But, winbig, if somebody tries to steal something from you, will you try to be
as polite as possible with that person? Don't think so. And even if that person is Bill Gates or Barak Obama- your
reaction will be the same. Now I also don't care if my money is stolen by the company trading in the Wallstreet
or by just some small and uknown online casino. No difference.


What I wonder is how can I get to the fair treatment now? Is there a chance to find an independent expert at this forum
who will directly contact Microgaming with all the necessary information from me and the casino and will get the certain
answers about this bet? I am afraid that there is some management decision at 32red not to pay me in any case. So now the guys like
Pat are trying their best not to pay me. Accusing me of terms violation, amending the terms immediately, prolonging the time without
definite solution (almost 20 days), then presenting a forged gameplay video which, if true, makes all the previous discussion about
technical problems and discrepancies unneccessary. If there was a TIE- that should have been THE FIRST argument for 32red against
my claim of missing winnings. But somehow-
this was the last argument- after all others did not work.

 

[maxd]

what 32 red is doing is a forgery! first they tried to amend their TC. Now they do something even worse- they forge my gameplay! I realy need help on this one.

Maybe if you took a civil approach to this you might make faster (and better) progress? Calling people liars and accusing them of forgery isn't helping your case any.

Winbig took the words right out of my mouth.

How would you like it if people here started calling you a sniveling, cowardly liar? Probably not much, right? Well show a little respect!

32 Red has earned the right to be treated with some consideration here and you would be well advised to start doing so. I'm not saying that your issue isn't a worthy one but I am saying that by presenting yourself this way, by making sweeping accusations and insults like this, you are putting yourself in the position of being the problem instead of soliciting help with the problem.

Respectful persistence with your issue will get you a lot more of the 'help' you claim to seek than this name-calling and slander.

 

[winbig]

again excuse me for my emotionality. As I told before it is a big money for me. If it was let's say 100 eu- may be
I would behave different. But, winbig, if somebody tries to steal something from you, will you try to be
as polite as possible with that person? Don't think so. And even if that person is Bill Gates or Barak Obama- your
reaction will be the same. Now I also don't care if my money is stolen by the company trading in the Wallstreet
or by just some small and uknown online casino. No difference.

Of course I'm going to be pi$$ed off if someone tried to screw me, but I've learned from life experience that I'm only going to make matters worse if I bring my personal feelings and emotions into the equation when I'm trying to get any issue resolved - gambling or otherwise.

If you had done some research, you'll see a pattern. One of which is that 32Red is a stand-up group and have been doing the right thing for many years now; and I'm confident that they'll do the right thing in regards to this issue..

 

[Pinababy69]

I am afraid that there is some management decision at 32red not to pay me in any case. So now the guys like
Pat are trying their best not to pay me.

Has Pat or anyone from 32Red come right out and said they're not going to pay you? I have no idea what they're going to do, that's why I'm waiting to see what they DO say.

The terms were changed because they were incorrect, and I would be shellshocked if they tried to hold you to any term not in place when you signed up and played. The timing of the change in terms looks horrible, but given the fact they didn't realize they were incorrect until this issue was brought up, they didn't really have a choice. They needed to be changed. It shouldn't affect your case one way or another.

As others have stated here, if you are not satisfied when a resolution is posted, you will be free to PAB with Max. Check out the links in his signature. But you are not helping yourself right now. You have to understand that many of us here are familiar with 32Red, and the people behind the casino. It is NOT their style to pull fast ones on players, or attempt to cheat anyone. Exactly the opposite as a matter of fact. That is why many of us are giving them a wider berth to resolve this, and not jumping all over them. I do understand that nearly three weeks is way too long...and as a player, I too would be none too happy at the delay.

 

[maxd]

again excuse me for my emotionality. As I told before it is a big money for me.

I don't care if it is your life savings! That's not an excuse.

Every time you've posted here you've gone out of your way to be abusive. That's not 'emotionality', that's being an a-hole. If you behave like that you'll get treated like that.

Shape up, be an adult! State your case, of course, but do it without the BS.

 

[Rado16]

are you trying to provoke me with insult and then to ban me from posting?

Why do you discuss my personality and my posting style and not the issue itself? Not a one useful posting
from you at this thread till now.

 

[maxd]

are you trying to provoke me with insult and then to ban me from posting?

No, if I wanted to ban you you'd be gone already.

Read what I have said: post like a responsible adult and you're welcome to do so. I think I've stated the case clearly and simply.

Why do you discuss my personality and my posting style and not the issue itself?

Because I am a moderator. It's my job to see that the membership conduct themselves appropriately, regardless of how pressing they may feel their issue is.

If you can't post without the abusive crap then your issue is _never_ going to get addressed to your satisfaction. Like I've said, at a certain point your 'personality and posting style' become the problem.

And again, to reiterate, being an a-hole is not a 'posting style'. It is inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour that will not be tolerated. Clean up your act and no one has a problem with what you are posting.

I promise you that if the casino behaved toward you the way you are behaving toward them then (a) everyone would be on them like a ton of bricks, and (b) they'd already have been banned for abusive and disrespectful behaviour. It wouldn't matter how distraught they were.

If you need further clarification of what is expected of you I invite you to read our Forum Rules wherein you will find the following:

1.6 - No "Libelous" Posts. Do not make posts that could be considered libelous, defamatory, or posting merely to cause harm to another's business. Opinions are expected, but do not attack others with accusations of criminal activity unless this has been proven in a court of law.

I think the situation is very clear at this point: stop with the "fraud" this and "criminal" that and get on with your issue. It's as simple as that.

 

[path]

32Red

Just to let you know that I have emailed Rado16 with our proposed solution.
Thanks
Pat

 

[Rado16]

I agree with 32red's solution. Again I am sorry for being abusive.

 

[Pinababy69]

I agree with 32red's solution. Again I am sorry for being abusive.

You've shared all other correspondence from them....are you allowed to tell us what the resolution is? If not, that's fine too. Just wondering.

 

[wangpoker]

I'd like to know the resolution.
Is it about the flaw of MG live dealer casino?
I am very curious.

 

[chuchu59]

Again, Pat has come up with a resolution that seems acceptable to the OP. I dont mind not knowing the resolution as long as both parties are happy. Case resolved.