Resolved 32Red vs Joseph3 - expensive mistake

[mimi26]

I haven't decided to do this 'PAB' though.
Obviously I have heard of Casinomeister on TV etc, and I have scanned through the forums over the years, but I am confused about this PAB service.
I'm looking at all these casino banners and thinking there's an obvious conflict of interest here.

I thought the forum was a discussion on fair play, which is what I am doing. But you are right, I suppose I do have an agenda to get my money back, so this will be my last post.

Please read the rules regarding the PAB process and submit one, there is no conflict of interest, go and read up on all the successful ones, this is a free service please use it you would be stupid not to!!,

 

[maphesto]

I haven't decided to do this 'PAB' though.

If you come here to this forum with your very interesting story and decide to not use the free service many members will only see your post as a meaningless rant.

Please, do that PAB!

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have had 200% boni from 32Red in the past, but they are pretty rare. The Club Rouge birthday bonus is now 200% (£250 for £500 bonus), when it used to be 100% (£500 for £500). It's also the norm for 32Red to "eat" their own mistakes, yet they are apparently willing to burn a reputation built up for over a decade over a mere £25K.

The emails shown by the OP do seem to back up the claim that there isn't really any more to this than some CS rep cocking up in crediting a 200% bonus instead of a 100%. We know from experience that when a CS rep gets it wrong, and is challenged by a player, they can often defend their wrong decision by saying things like (I work here, I know my job, what you got is correct, etc)

However, 32Red have already been changing focus away from players and towards the profit motive. They have stopped weekend payments in the face of discontent amongst players, and used a BS reason for doing so. They then removed "auto flush" from their system so they don't even have next day payment by default any longer, players now have to email CS to get their withdrawal "flushed".

There is a down side to jumping straight to court action though. The case for the OP would be stronger if they had pursued all possible avenues between an internal complaint and court action. At the minimum, a complaint through eCogra and/or a PAB here should be tried first, with action being taken in the courts only if a mutual settlement could not be agreed. The OP has already made his initial offer, in that he will allow the incorrectly credited £1000 to be deducted from the value of the claim.

With the new UK regulations imminent, this could be an interesting case if it is judged by a UK body, such as the court or the UKGC (assuming 32Red now has it's continuation licence, and the process of issuing the formal licence is under way).

The bolded term also works in the player's favour, as if the casino can indeed change the terms "at any time", it could be interpreted to mean that they changed the big bankroll bonus to 200% "at any time", and so far from being a mistake, being given 200% was consistent with this term.

Lastly, if such amounts are "never given", how come front line CS didn't find themselves locked out from doing this at their console. There are many instances of players contacting CS, who agree that the player is in the right, but that the player will have to wait till "office hours" because the agent doesn't have the required permissions to apply the agreed resolution at their console.

I would also expect the CS supervisor to get a right bollocking for making the initial mistake that created this mess in the first place. It would have been better to have paid up, and then dealt with the CS department internally. There would have been every chance of winning the money back off the OP given that choices have been squeezed by the new UK rules, and it would have made for some good PR from the story that a UK player had to move to 32Red from a casino that shoved them out the door because of the UK changes, and the first experience was being treated like a king, and then winning £25K and getting paid within a couple of days.

 

[xxshepxx]

It is Joseph,

Have faith, they are impartial, it's their job to be so.

Get your PAB in and let the guys at it.

 

[nikantw]

I haven't decided to do this 'PAB' though.
Obviously I have heard of Casinomeister on TV etc, and I have scanned through the forums over the years, but I am confused about this PAB service.
I'm looking at all these casino banners and thinking there's an obvious conflict of interest here.

I thought the forum was a discussion on fair play, which is what I am doing. But you are right, I suppose I do have an agenda to get my money back, so this will be my last post.

No need to reply to this, please do the BAB.
If you have done your homwork, you know you are in the right place.
If you are legit, hurting the casino reputation without proof (it is impossible to provide hard evidence in the forum) doesn't help you.
Only makes you look bad. Are you legit? Steps are: Find the rep, do the PAB, post the results (if you need). Did you even bother to read the rules for this forum? For the PAB?

That said, "balance dropped down 1000" doesn't mean a thing. Nobody bets the same if he has 2100, 1100, or 100 (mabe one or two ).

 

[The Dude]

Again, another example of how not to post a complaint in the forum. At first, the member states that he is collecting opinions before he takes 32Red to court.

This seems to be the biggest casino forum so I'd like a few responses from some members please before I proceed with my court action against 32Red Plc in the UK.

Right then and there he pretty much forfeited any chance for 32Red to respond in the forum. They've already informed me that they have received the same message from the player. Once lawyers and a proper court is involved, then it goes beyond the scope of a PAB.

Most importantly is that the player has withheld the fact that the casino has made a generous offer to the player - before he began posting - I wonder why he hasn't mentioned this?

He has also made it clear that he will not submit his complaint to any of the formal associations because they are "in the casino's pocket"

• Gibraltar Gambling Commissioner
• eCOGRA
• IBAS

Submitting complaints to these entities is free. The player has nothing to lose but the minutes it take to fill out the forms. Why care if you think they are in the "pocket of the casinos" - you should entertain that claim only when you've finished using their services. So what do you have to lose? Nothing but time.

So according to the player, the way to go here is precisely this:

Maybe mob justice can make 32Red see sense before I proceed with court action.

Since when is mob justice ever a good thing?

I can guarantee it will not happen here.

 

[catapultaudio]

Are you saying that you will not be able to proceed with a PAB in this case then Casinomeister? Thing is, with 32red being so heavily regarded here, I don't think it would look good on yourselves not to take up what seems to be a somewhat legitimate complaint against them... you don't want to fuel peoples speculations that you are biased towards the casinos or on anyones payroll, no matter how ridiculous those allegations might seem to most of us.

With respect to their offer, I have to say, no matter how 'generous' 32red may feel they are being, if you believe you are owed legitimately £24,000, an offer of half - for example - would not seem generous to me... sure its a lot of money, but I've been robbed of similar amounts of cash in the past by companies whom I worked for that then decided I was not being paid the agreed amount unless I did additional work or steps not included in the original contract, and when that reached the stage of proceeding to court, they made a "generous" offer of 60percent of the agreed rate... considering it was over 18 months past due, it would have to have been nearer to 160percent for me to consider it generous.

I still can't form a full opinion on this one way or another from the information given - the live chat where the bonus was given would seem to be key, though 32reds emails to indicate that the terms and conditions link was given at the time the bonus was granted, I expect somebody depositing £1,000 would have read these, therefore, to say that the bonus was inside normal boundaries when you have read specific t and c stating different is perhaps dishonest.. nevertheless, the rest of the chat could tell a different story. If the CS rep actually stated "We have a fantastic 200percent bonus to offer you!" then the rest of the details are moot surely...?

I hope we will get to learn the outcome of this one, thats for sure.

 

[Joseph3]

Right then and there he pretty much forfeited any chance for 32Red to respond in the forum. They've already informed me that they have received the same message from the player. Once lawyers and a proper court is involved, then it goes beyond the scope of a PAB.

Most importantly here is that the player has withheld the fact that the casino has made a generous offer to the player - before he began posting - I wonder why he hasn't mentioned this?

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email by mistake in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.

He has also made it clear that he will not submit his complaint to any of the formal associations because they are "in the casino's pocket"

• Gibraltar Gambling Commissioner
• eCOGRA
• IBAS

Submitting complaints to these entities is free. The player has nothing to lose but the minutes it take to fill out the forms. Why care if you think they are in the "pocket of the casinos" - you should entertain that claim when you're finished using their services. So what do you have to lose? Nothing but time.

So according to the player, the way to go here is precisely this:

Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest? Why else would I not want to go through them? They are not going to give any additional information to this case that I am afraid of. I'd much rather use an impartial judge, thanks.

Since when is mob justice ever a good thing?

I can guarantee it will not happen here.

Ok maybe that was a poor off the cuff remark. A better way of saying it would be; I'd like 32Red to see that their own players agree they are not advocating fair play with their position, and hopefully this will make them change their mind.

 

[spoton]

Thinking that Bryan and/or Max are on the casinos side is just stupid. If they were, then they wouldn't have have such a big rogue and not recommended list as they have. CM has even stood up against Betfair...

But if the OP really wants a gamble why not take it to the court, you might get the full pot, maybey half, or maybey you have to cover 30 000 or more in lawyers fees. Quite a bit more risky, but that whats gambling is about I guess..

 

[SpinUk]

I have had 200% boni from 32Red in the past, but they are pretty rare. The Club Rouge birthday bonus is now 200% (£250 for £500 bonus), when it used to be 100% (£500 for £500). It's also the norm for 32Red to "eat" their own mistakes, yet they are apparently willing to burn a reputation built up for over a decade over a mere £25K.

The emails shown by the OP do seem to back up the claim that there isn't really any more to this than some CS rep cocking up in crediting a 200% bonus instead of a 100%. We know from experience that when a CS rep gets it wrong, and is challenged by a player, they can often defend their wrong decision by saying things like (I work here, I know my job, what you got is correct, etc)

However, 32Red have already been changing focus away from players and towards the profit motive. They have stopped weekend payments in the face of discontent amongst players, and used a BS reason for doing so. They then removed "auto flush" from their system so they don't even have next day payment by default any longer, players now have to email CS to get their withdrawal "flushed".

There is a down side to jumping straight to court action though. The case for the OP would be stronger if they had pursued all possible avenues between an internal complaint and court action. At the minimum, a complaint through eCogra and/or a PAB here should be tried first, with action being taken in the courts only if a mutual settlement could not be agreed. The OP has already made his initial offer, in that he will allow the incorrectly credited £1000 to be deducted from the value of the claim.

With the new UK regulations imminent, this could be an interesting case if it is judged by a UK body, such as the court or the UKGC (assuming 32Red now has it's continuation licence, and the process of issuing the formal licence is under way).

The bolded term also works in the player's favour, as if the casino can indeed change the terms "at any time", it could be interpreted to mean that they changed the big bankroll bonus to 200% "at any time", and so far from being a mistake, being given 200% was consistent with this term.

Lastly, if such amounts are "never given", how come front line CS didn't find themselves locked out from doing this at their console. There are many instances of players contacting CS, who agree that the player is in the right, but that the player will have to wait till "office hours" because the agent doesn't have the required permissions to apply the agreed resolution at their console.

I would also expect the CS supervisor to get a right bollocking for making the initial mistake that created this mess in the first place. It would have been better to have paid up, and then dealt with the CS department internally. There would have been every chance of winning the money back off the OP given that choices have been squeezed by the new UK rules, and it would have made for some good PR from the story that a UK player had to move to 32Red from a casino that shoved them out the door because of the UK changes, and the first experience was being treated like a king, and then winning £25K and getting paid within a couple of days.

Great post. Fortunately the days of "the casinos decision is final" are coming to an end with the new regulation, as well as other areas where a lot of Casinos are probably more than happy to keep the status quo, such as their tax affairs and more importantly lack of proper legal accountability. The decision of big player such as Digimedia to bypass the lucrative UK market to avoid such scrutiny does make you wonder what sort of ship these Casino's are running in the background.

The legal consortium (including 32red) currently challenging this new regulation wrote to the UK Secretary of State for Culture, Sajid Javid, a couple of months ago saying that the current regulation has worked for more than 15 years “without any serious consumer protection problems”.

This appears to be a sharp illustration of the polar opposite.

 

[kadcox]

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.




Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest? Why else would I not want to go through them? They are not going to give any additional information to this case that I am afraid of. I'd much rather use an impartial judge, thanks.



Ok maybe that was a poor off the cuff remark. A better way of saying it would be; I'd like 32Red to see that their own players agree they are not advocating fair play with their position, and hopefully this will make them change their mind.

You make valid points. It is kind of funny how those bodies are funded by the casinos, and one is asked to seek justice from them. If you feel the courts are a place to receive justice. By all means go for it. Its a lot of money. And you shouldn't risk losing it by having conflict of interests intervening...

 

[vorcirion]

There really is no reason why OP shouldn't do a PAB (unless he knows that he fucked up somehow and PAB won't be successful because of it). The best case scenario...you'll get your money that you won fairly (my opinion). The worst case scenario...you still have other options if your PAB isn't successful. But this kind of tactic where you try to harm 32Red's reputation as much as possible because you're angry or something isn't a good use of these forums.

 

[Googobucs]

· The maximum bonus that can be claimed for this particular Big Bankroll Bonus is 1,000 Chips as per Point 2 of the relevant Terms and Conditions (which can be seen here)


[/I]

If the above T & C are correct related to this bonus, then it's the players responsibility to know that. Someone making a deposit of $1000 does not mistakenly think they are entitled to more and know it;s a mistake right up front.

I recently had a casino give me over $120 extra on a weekly cash back bonus. I immediately knew this was a mistake and contacted live chat. They asked me not to play while they investigated what happened.
The next day, I received an e-mail thanking me for my honesty and telling me it was their mistake and I could keep the extra to play with.
If I knew a $100 mistake, I have no doubt you knew a $1000 mistake.
I hope you get stuck paying 32Reds courts costs for your dishonesty.

 

[gagamel]

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email by mistake in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.


I would take that offer (no joke).

It gives you a chance to safe some of the 25000. Without this offer you have definately zero.

 

[kadcox]

If the above T & C are correct related to this bonus, then it's the players responsibility to know that. Someone making a deposit of $1000 does not mistakenly think they are entitled to more and know it;s a mistake right up front.

I recently had a casino give me over $120 extra on a weekly cash back bonus. I immediately knew this was a mistake and contacted live chat. They asked me not to play while they investigated what happened.
The next day, I received an e-mail thanking me for my honesty and telling me it was their mistake and I could keep the extra to play with.
If I knew a $100 mistake, I have no doubt you knew a $1000 mistake.
I hope you get stuck paying 32Reds courts costs for your dishonesty.

That doesn't mean anything. Casinos are always running bonuses specials that are different from the initial offer. The Casino FUGGED up. They know it and instead of doing the right thing. They are trying to make the customer pay for it. This in itself is Rogu"ISH" behavior. The OP shouldn't settle for anything less then his full payout. You eat your mistakes, learn from your mistakes, and don't let it happen again. 32red or not. The way they are handling this is WRONG WRONG WRONG!

 

[nikantw]

Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest?

Because they (the good ones) need them to exist and do theit job (clear the market from the bad ones and restore peoples trust)!

 

[JGslots]

Interesting Scenario. I agree this maybe shouldn't be discussed like this here. But from what I've read 32red need to pay in full. The OP should PAB ASaP

 

[rshkrn]

I'd say OP isn't without fault here...

Out of greed for extra playtime OP decided to quietly accept the 1000 $ (!!!!!!) bonus, with maybe an intention of blaming it on the CS rep if he did manage to clear the WR and win (which he did eventually)....like mentioned by so many if the OP had lost, he probably wouldn't have bothered CM with this

The mistake of the rep cannot be neglected either as we aren't talking about a small amount here, just the bonus amount for that one deposit is probably what the majority of us get in an entire year!!!

If OP has actually got a settlement offer from 32red, he should high-five his near dear ones and take it IMHO....

 

[syntynyt]

the simple fact is the offer is far from generous
They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.

i have to agree that is ridiculous. if all you said is real why in the world you don't PAB right NOW? the odds are in your favor.

 

[dunover]

OK, my two penn'orth.

The error lies with the casino initially. The terms (OP didn't read) are there to cover such cock-ups. It was obvious the bonus had been credited incorrectly so I ask why the OP did not go on live chat and question if it was OK to proceed?

On the other hand, I've often received a bonus amount different to what I'm used to and upon further investigation found that I have qualified for something else too, or the latest day's promo. It does happen.

The OP has tried to rouse the torch-and-pitchfork brigade, and unusually has been honest about this.
Fortunately accredited sites do not usually bow to that nonsense.

The OP is sounding hysterical to be honest, blustering about courts etc. Now I can forgive that given the large win he has had, I would be mightily stressed too. Even Vinyl will advise that's not the way to go at present as he has to exhaust all other reasonable means.

The OP has been advised of a fair and neutral means of resolution, viz-a-viz the PAB process. 32red are a reasonable bunch and obviously after flatly refusing the player and then confiscating the lot, the matter has been subsequently passed up the ladder and as I understand it he has thus been offered the amount back but with a huge 750k WR.
This is clearly a massive EV- proposition to the player and will almost inevitably result in the player losing the 25k and therefore profiting 32red by his initial 1k deposit.
(Admittedly I would wet myself laughing if he attempted this WR which would take about 10 days playing 24/7 as 6.50 per spin and say cleared the WR and made a cashout of say 50k... )

I believe (yes, despite the player's hitherto banging and shouting) that he should receive something better than that. At least his deposit back and start again or w/d it. At most be allowed his whole cash-out but that is clearly more than even 32red's fairness and goodwill would stretch to. In the middle maybe half his cash-out? Not my decision or any of yours ultimately, but he has in part (assuming his story is 100% kosher which it seems to be now) been wronged by 32red's error and has been caused unreasonable stress by it which would never be 32red's intention to any new player.

OP - instead of blustering proceed with Max's offer of the PAB process. I'm sure you'll end up with some sort of compromise and be happier than you are now. It's neutral and relies on both parties being 100% honest. You'll certainly get it from 32red's side, they aren't used to PABs.

Hope you all sort it out!

 

[243 lines=daft]

In truth I can sympathise with the reluctance to run this past these mentioned gaming authorities if the op suspects they would side with the casino based on his own research.
For example my understanding is that ECogra was set up by Microgaming in the first place eleven years ago?
This is an example of why the relationships between these authorities and the casinos/software suppliers should be much more transparent than they are now.

BUT the thing that irks about this thread is the deliberate obfuscation by the OP.

It's one thing that he neglected to mention that 32 Red had made an offer in his original post.
But several posters (especially after the Luckydalia shambles of a few weeks ago) put him on the spot and asked in no uncertain terms
if he was quite sure he wasn't witholding crucial information.

He had no reason at that point to withold that detail other than to deliberately deceive.
Why is telling the bloomin' truth such a hard thing to do!?

 

[PCJACKPOT2008]

120 000 spins at £6.25 to clear WR is hardly worth mentioning in my book. Impossible to clear.

 

[mimi26]

OK I am a little worried if I am honest, this is so out of character for 32red, and I have all sorts running through my head now, stopping the weekend cashouts, the 24hr pending period, I really hope they are not in trouble It would be too much to bear if we lost a great casino like this, OK all speculation but the things happening lately do make one wonder.

Anyway if I am honest I think the casino should pay this out in FULL it was their error and should be rectified I just wish the OP would have handles this complaint better

 

[catapultaudio]

OK, my two penn'orth.

The error lies with the casino initially. The terms (OP didn't read) are there to cover such cock-ups. It was obvious the bonus had been credited incorrectly so I ask why the OP did not go on live chat and question if it was OK to proceed?

On the other hand, I've often received a bonus amount different to what I'm used to and upon further investigation found that I have qualified for something else too, or the latest day's promo. It does happen.

The OP has tried to rouse the torch-and-pitchfork brigade, and unusually has been honest about this.
Fortunately accredited sites do not usually bow to that nonsense.

The thing is we don't know if the players conversation with live chat included the line "we have credited your 200percent bonus, have fun" or similar, alongside the link to the terms and conditions, and without that chat log its difficult to know how realistic the OPs assertion he was unaware he was credited too much bonus might be. He might well have had no idea there was any need to contact live chat.

rshkn mentioned if the OP had lost his bonus, he probably would not have bothered CM with this - of course not, there would be no story to tell. But likewise, had the OP lost the entire deposit and bonus, I'm sure nothing would have happened on 32reds end too - you can bet your life they would not have returned his deposit or similar as a result of this error with his bonus. That being the case its difficult for me to have sympathy when it happens to go the other way - if he lost the money they would have quietly forgotten their mistake, yet if he wins, the best he is offered is to have the balance returned with a 30x wagering requirement.. its simply not okay for a casino to make a mistake which results in a situation where the player can only lose regardless of what happens.

Another thing, a crucial part of the case seems to be the fact that the players balance dropped below the £1,000 mark - the casino states that the player would have gone bust at this point, and the following play is therefore void. However, if the player did not have that additional money on their account at the time, it is possible/likely they would have changed their style of play - lower variance games, lower bets etc, long before reaching that point, in an attempt to avoid busting out. There is simply no way of guessing this kind of thing, but what I do know for sure is that it is definitely not fair to assume that the players actions would have been identical regardless of the extra £1,000 being on balance or not.

I like 32red, I have not played there as much the past few months as I used to, but this is the worst possible time IMO for them to be getting wrapped up in a situation like this. MANY MG casinos are closing their doors to UK players and 32red stand to pick up a whole bunch of those players, such as the OP, as a result. Lets face it, this is exactly the kind of player the casinos want - depositing the maximum for the biggest welcome bonus - but the OPs lack of tact so far is a major issue of course... it might be impossible now for a reasonable settlement to be reached outside the court room, amazing how much damage can be caused by a thread in well under 24 hours. Nevertheless I hope that I am wrong and with the help of CM and max, an agreement can be reached that leaves everybody happy.

 

[dunover]

OK I am a little worried if I am honest, this is so out of character for 32red, and I have all sorts running through my head now, stopping the weekend cashouts, the 24hr pending period, I really hope they are not in trouble It would be too much to bear if we lost a great casino like this, OK all speculation but the things happening lately do make one wonder.

Anyway if I am honest I think the casino should pay this out in FULL it was their error and should be rectified I just wish the OP would have handles this complaint better

No, they are NOT in trouble my friend! The matter was passed upstairs after the initial refusal to pay, and came back with the 25k-with-WR offer. A small admission of their part in the gaffe. I'm not sure the OP had the 25k-with-WR offer at the time he made the first post.

32red are simply doing the same as any other corporation, maximizing revenues and cutting costs wherever possible to eke out another % on the profit figures and dividends for the owners/shareholders. Companies are run by accountants, seldom strategists.

Catapult - this crossed my mind too, regarding the player changing stake/play when he neared bust-out. Unfortunately this will only ever be speculation; we can't prove a negative. What 32red state is fact - he dipped into the 'non-awarded' bonus to procure his winnings.

 

[Tirilej]

No, they are NOT in trouble my friend! The matter was passed upstairs after the initial refusal to pay, and came back with the 25k-with-WR offer. A small admission of their part in the gaffe. I'm not sure the OP had the 25k-with-WR offer at the time he made the first post.

I don't know, but they had paid him back his original deposit already and offered him the 1000 bonus to try again.

I trust these guys. I know them but not the op, so I just hope it will be an ending that all are satisfied with.

Remember all that it's Friday and this will probably not be settled today.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Thanks for Pm to clarify

 

[vinylweatherman]

There's no hidden agenda with regards to me leaving this out (to what end?), the simple fact is the offer is far from generous so I didn't see the relevance, and I missed out their latest email by mistake in my post. They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.




Those bodies are funded by the casinos. How can I ask for an independent inquiry when there is a clear conflict of interest? Why else would I not want to go through them? They are not going to give any additional information to this case that I am afraid of. I'd much rather use an impartial judge, thanks.



Ok maybe that was a poor off the cuff remark. A better way of saying it would be; I'd like 32Red to see that their own players agree they are not advocating fair play with their position, and hopefully this will make them change their mind.

By ruling out these services, and going straight from the internal process to a court action, you have WEAKENED your case in court. Even if you win, by not pursuing these other avenues first, the judge could decide not to award costs in your favour as you turned down a cheaper alternative that may well have achieved a settlement.

The amount itself rules out the small claims process, so it would have to be a full case, with all the expense involved.

You should ask your solicitor what it would cost to pursue this case, and then factor in the possibility that costs are not awarded on top of any settlement, which would leave you with £25,000 - (your costs in pursuing the case).

You cannot rely on a default victory due to 32Red just not turning up. A casino intending to operate legally under the new rules would no have to stay away, so you can expect to see their legal team there. I am surprised your solicitor hasn't told you that you should make sure you have pursued mediation via eCogra or IBAS, and achieved "deadlock" here to before proceeding to court. All you have so far is a formal "letter of deadlock" from 32Red, which is actually the STARTING point for taking up the issue with IBAS or eCogra.

The proposed settlement (£25K back in the account with a large WR) is what 32Red offer those who have breached the rules during play, such as betting more than £6.25 Since it was THEY who made the mistake, I can understand why you would reject such a settlement, but you should at least have mentioned it.

We won't be seeing anyone from 32Red commenting about this in the thread due to the possibility of court action, and anything that is posted being used against them in court. For the same reason, the OP should "belt up" if they have decided that they are not prepared to give mediation a chance, and to proceed with court action.

Once a court summons has been issued, stepping back to mediation would no longer be an option. The most probable course would be a discussion between 32Red's legal team and your solicitor in order to explore the possibility of an "out of court settlement" prior to the case being heard.

 

[dunover]

By ruling out these services, and going straight from the internal process to a court action, you have WEAKENED your case in court. Even if you win, by not pursuing these other avenues first, the judge could decide not to award costs in your favour as you turned down a cheaper alternative that may well have achieved a settlement.

The amount itself rules out the small claims process, so it would have to be a full case, with all the expense involved.

You should ask your solicitor what it would cost to pursue this case, and then factor in the possibility that costs are not awarded on top of any settlement, which would leave you with £25,000 - (your costs in pursuing the case).

You cannot rely on a default victory due to 32Red just not turning up. A casino intending to operate legally under the new rules would no have to stay away, so you can expect to see their legal team there. I am surprised your solicitor hasn't told you that you should make sure you have pursued mediation via eCogra or IBAS, and achieved "deadlock" here to before proceeding to court. All you have so far is a formal "letter of deadlock" from 32Red, which is actually the STARTING point for taking up the issue with IBAS or eCogra.

The proposed settlement (£25K back in the account with a large WR) is what 32Red offer those who have breached the rules during play, such as betting more than £6.25 Since it was THEY who made the mistake, I can understand why you would reject such a settlement, but you should at least have mentioned it.

We won't be seeing anyone from 32Red commenting about this in the thread due to the possibility of court action, and anything that is posted being used against them in court. For the same reason, the OP should "belt up" if they have decided that they are not prepared to give mediation a chance, and to proceed with court action.

Once a court summons has been issued, stepping back to mediation would no longer be an option. The most probable course would be a discussion between 32Red's legal team and your solicitor in order to explore the possibility of an "out of court settlement" prior to the case being heard.

Which is why he should take this matter off the forum and do this privately in conjunction with the PAB process. The outcome could be made subject to a confidentiality agreement so neither the OP or 32red would be seen on here again. All Max would need to tell us is 'matter resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.'
If this thread goes on much longer we'll be attracting more Canadians, with 'systems' going by the name of Jon.....

 

[nikantw]

I think someone has watched too many Tv lawyers force something happen with "smart" trics (like blackmailing).

 

[catapultaudio]

oh god dont say that, I cant begin to imagine what johnny would have to say on this one after his bizarre responses to jemma nunns complaint a few weeks ago... seriously that guy is a straight out crank, if hes not a troll he needs serious help, either way, we are doing nobody any favours by humouring him on this forum.

 

[maxd]

Re the possibility of a PAB: ignoring for the moment the OP's diss of the PAB process -- one should educate oneself before speculating so publicly about something you obviously know little or nothing about -- I'd say that at this late stage the OP will have to seek and receive Bryan's explicit permission to proceed. Mentioning lawyers and courts and so forth usually puts any PAB, or the possibility thereof, on ice.

 

[spintee]

Every day I repeat my self, Another customer service agent f*king up yet again,

From what I have read than a 50/50 split cash, Yes the player should of double check when receive the bonus but so should of cs when giving out, we are not talking 20 quid here, You hear alot fron cs that they cannot help out about bonus ect but when they do you would of thought they knew the score

 

[catapultaudio]

Re the possibility of a PAB: ignoring for the moment the OP's diss of the PAB process -- one should educate oneself before speculating so publicly about something you obviously know little or nothing about -- I'd say that at this late stage the OP will have to seek and receive Bryan's explicit permission to proceed. Mentioning lawyers and courts and so forth usually puts any PAB, or the possibility thereof, on ice.

Why is this? I've not heard it said before. So the guy mentions lawyers/courts on the forum, and that then means you would not be willing to chase up a PAB for him? Or is there some consequences to the PAB process as a result of this 'mention' that I am not accounting for? I said previous I acknowledge the guys lack of tact, but refusal to take up this case for anything less than a cast iron solid reason would significantly dent my longstanding high opinion of the arbitration service offered here... it's your casino of the decade refusing a player the equivalent of the UK average annual wage as a result of their own mistake. The stakes are waaaay too high to just let this go, for EVERYONE now involved.

 

[homerbert]

CWC thread, this thread. This all make me think that best way is just stop gambling, really. No any protection, and in general, they do what they want. I am sad now.

 

[syntynyt]

just to assume if a PAB will be submitted and will end in player favor without 32red paying, they will be rogued? is one case enough to put on blacklist any accredited casino? newbie at this chapter so i feel the need to ask.

 

[kadcox]

Apparently this situation has already been discussed between Bryan and 32Red. Bryan said an offer was already sent to the OP. In which the OP rightfully refused. IMHO, if Bryan felt that 32Red was in the wrong. He could have easily asked that 32Red reconsider and pay the OP. But since this didn't happen. I would think the OP PAB will be lost. Maybe I'm wrong but if I was the OP I would look for other outside options. The courts sounds like a good ideal. I would add my legal fees on top of my 25k too.

 

[JGslots]

I just hope it gets resolved. I don't think dragging the respected name of 32red through the mud will do anyone any favours. We all love them and they are one if the best out there so hopefully it's sorted out the right way

 

[dunover]

Why is this? I've not heard it said before. So the guy mentions lawyers/courts on the forum, and that then means you would not be willing to chase up a PAB for him? Or is there some consequences to the PAB process as a result of this 'mention' that I am not accounting for? I said previous I acknowledge the guys lack of tact, but refusal to take up this case for anything less than a cast iron solid reason would significantly dent my longstanding high opinion of the arbitration service offered here... it's your casino of the decade refusing a player the equivalent of the UK average annual wage as a result of their own mistake. The stakes are waaaay too high to just let this go, for EVERYONE now involved.

Read the previous cases. What Max presumably means is that aside from pooh-poohing the PAB service offered, he has inferred he has already embarked on legal process via a solicitor, or is intending to. The PAB is a voluntary process of arbitration between a CM member and any casino which has signed up to and met the standards of accreditation, and therefore communicates with Max with the consent of the CM member initiating the PAB. The process follows no legal formalities, nor is the outcome legally binding. The process is voluntary and less formal.
Despite this it is a recognized level of complaint resolution which has retrieved hundreds of thousands on behalf of CM members without the need for lawyers and threats. If the OP had listened and recognized this fact he could have simply posted the nature of his beef, taken advice and PAB'd (then quit posting) without this thread turning into a bloodfest. This would not prejudice any rights he has under the UKGC regs. or in the courts unless he rejected a perfectly fair and reasonable outcome.
Unfortunately he has rubbished the process and is clearly assuming it is biased in favour of 32red and has (possibly) already initiated legal action. Therefore the whole matter has gone above the level at which Max and the PAB process can mediate.
The only chance of a PAB as you were informed by Max would be a grovelling apology to himself and Bryan if/when he calms down and the assurance that any legal stuff he has been threatening or conferring with a solicitor about will be binned while the PAB does its due process.
None of us know what is really said behind the scenes, it ain't our business. This definitely isn't a case of CM/PAB not helping the guy, but him not helping himself.

 

[funnymunny]

...He could have easily asked that 32Red reconsider and pay the OP. But since this didn't happen...

How do you know Bryan didn't do this?

If he did, then I'll apologise for doubting you, but there's a saying along the lines of "if you didn't hear it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen & just because you say something, it doesn't make it the truth."


I too wouldn't expect 32Red to reply directly within this thread (until all is resolved), but unfortunately we now seem to be in the realms of some people getting carried away with hearsay, conjecture & supposition (with a little touch of tin hat theory thrown in for good measure). This may be good for rousing a mob mentality, but doesn't help the situation of either player, Operator, or those that run this site.

 

[SpinUk]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

32Red are getting UK License I can confirm that without giving out any source but can say its reliable and no not Mark

 

[JGslots]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

I'm almost certain, but I think 32red has confirmed by Ed that it will still be operational within the UK.

 

[SpinUk]

I'm almost certain, but I think 32red has confirmed by Ed that it's will still be operational within the UK.

If this is the case then it is great news for the OP, who at least has half a chance of getting a relatively fair and lower cost hearing if he does want to proceed legally. But still, volunatrily arbitration of any form before court proceeding would help his case, even cosmetically.

 

[dusky]

My first question from reading this entire thread is if the player was so in the dark about the percentage of bonus that was going to be offered, why would they deposit exactly £1000?

Try having a bank pay you an extra £1000 and they will retrieve it VERY quickly.

 

[petro]

I have read all posts up to this point.
Sorry for the big post, I can understand if you want to skip it.

These are some points that I think are important.

No one disagrees that the bonus was given by accident.

Have to agree bigjohn, there is more to the story.

The reason given by bigjohn is not sufficient to support that.
You must have “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (call it what you want, it’s evidence) to suspect that OP isn’t telling the entire truth.
You can’t justify it by saying other people have lied in the past, that’s not grounds for suspicion.
Opinions (things without evidence) should be kept for music and the arts.

How did the CS rep not notice. New? or not many clients accept the high roller bonus?

Human error; it’s something common to us all and it must be tolerated to some degree because of this.

I'd suggest many lawyers would say you have a good case

Most likely the courts would have an automatic answer to this question. I would hope so, after a thousand years of hearing cases like this.

32Red show remorse
It is with deep regret to see that the subsequent withdrawal request for the above amount came from these invalid funds.

It’s appropriate for 32Red to be remorseful because they are to some degree responsible.
It is better to be remorseful than not.

32Red offer to refund the deposit
…we will refund your original deposit but nothing more.

32Red offer a generous bonus

They have offered to put the £25k in my casino account, with the small matter of a £750,000 wagering requirement, with a £6.25 max bet.

If you play optimally, this bonus has an EV of $6250. But, I am not as certain as I can be about it.

And I certainly wouldn't be entitled to ask for my money back had I lost.

If the bonus is invalid it would invalidate the loss.
If I recall correctly there’s evidence on this forum of casinos refunding players who have lost on invalid bonuses/deposits.

If, on the other hand you are given a bonus which is within the normal parameters of the industry, then I would have no reason to believe it was an error.

That is irrelevant because there is more than enough evidence to establish that the bonus was given in error.


My advice is as follows:
Unless the magistrate is incompetent he or she will tell you: There isn't enough evidence to prove that the bonus wasn't an error. This makes your win invalid.
Consider taking the bonus with the 750k WR. I'm very sure it's EV+

Don't misunderstand me I'm not on 32Red's side. They have offended me too recently.

 

[dunover]

In purely commercial terms, If I was intending to leave the UK market and half a chance to knock a UK player for 25k with little comeback I know what I would do.

For pity's sake! 32red could pay this out to a hundred players a day if necessary. It's not a commercial decision and they are NOT leaving the UK market where they have a huge player base and even if they were, being an up-front outfit with high integrity they'd have told you by now. Please keep this all in context - they have used (thus far) a valid term to not pay a player in a case where clearly both sides take a bit of blame. No need for rumour-mongering and biased hypothesising. It's not a rogue we're discussing here, but casino of the decade.
Perhaps remember that my friend?

Anyway, I'm outta here now - all I can see is rolls of Bacofoil in the background.

P.S. The 'bonus' is EV-- the player would expect, at 96%, to lose 4% per turnover of 25k (£1000) x 30. He should bust out with 125k of WR left.

 

[SpinUk]

Every day I repeat my self, Another customer service agent f*king up yet again,

From what I have read than a 50/50 split cash, Yes the player should of double check when receive the bonus but so should of cs when giving out, we are not talking 20 quid here, You hear alot fron cs that they cannot help out about bonus ect but when they do you would of thought they knew the score

You know what, this would be the best decision for all parties. 32red take some responsibilty but save 12.5 grand while the OP doesnt have the hassle and cost of a legal case.

 

[SpinUk]

For pity's sake! 32red could pay this out to a hundred players a day if necessary. It's not a commercial decision and they are NOT leaving the UK market where they have a huge player base and even if they were, being an up-front outfit with high integrity they'd have told you by now. Please keep this all in context - they have used (thus far) a valid term to not pay a player in a case where clearly both sides take a bit of blame. No need for rumour-mongering and biased hypothesising. It's not a rogue we're discussing here, but casino of the decade.
Perhaps remember that my friend?

I've no doubt they could afford to pay this cash to him - (although a quarter of a million daily loss might be pushing it - they arnt exactly BP) but of course it is a commercial decision. Take away the financial side of it of course you would expect them to pay - they admitted their mistake already. If we were talking £50 do you think they would have come to the same conclusion. Integrity does have a firm place in any business, but thats what they are - a business. Its not a case of them "being great guys so they wouldnt do such a thing".

As I said, fairest would be to go halves and take it on the chin.

 

[Joseph3]

I'm a bit confused about people saying I need to calm down and that I'm ranting etc. I have only stated the facts and asked for the members opinions on whether 32Red were acting fairly or not.

Like I said, I wasn't fully clued up about all this PAB thing I thought it was just a big forum.

There really isn't anything too complex about this, the only issue is if you think 32Red a playing fair here by not paying me my winnings. They have given their explicit reasons for not paying.

Anyway, I've apologized to Max and he has informed me to go down the same route that I have planned and to continue with the legal action. There seems to be a lot of interest in this, so I will let you guys know how it goes. I think transparency in the casino industry is important.