Worst Ever TSII Experience

[Nifty29]

Thanks for the compliment Dunover.

You're right. I do have tunnel vision.......I only accept the FACTS and refuse to entertain fanciful and totally baseless theories and conspiracies.

It has served me very well thus far.

I honestly don't see how you can possibly enjoy your gambling with all these theories and beliefs running around in your head. I know I wouldn't. I would just stop altogether if I thought it made a difference which MGS casino I played a slot at and whether I'd played it before, but that's just me.

I'll also say that if there WAS ANY advantage to playing a "virgin" slot, the advantage players would have discovered it long, long ago and it would have been taken down and altered to stop it occurring. The net is full of APs testing and investigating online casino games and they will pick up anything and everything. I know of a few events in the past of which I cannot speak that would prove this to you quite clearly....but alas you'll have to take my word for it, or not, as you please.

 

[243 lines=daft]

The problem here and in so many other threads, dedicated to particular doubts regarding certain software provider is that these software providers are doing very few or even nothing to clear the mist! Why it's necessary to exist soooo many ambiguities in the way an online casino operates? Is it so hard for MGS for example to put some efforts in giving a publicity of some facts(including but limited to explanation of RTP, TRTP, are these stats operator independant, does it matter if a player is playing in only one or in many casinos, etc.), by explaining them officially and thus proving once again it is the real master and leader on the field of online gambling!
Anyway, after so many years, the online gambling industry has still much to improve when it comes to help their customers understand how the machine is actually working IMO. Would be much easier and there won't be such threads, I bet on that!

Exactly. the logical conclusion remains that they do not want the customer to know how the software is operating. It is also logical that the first of the big boys to actually lay its working bare for scrutiny (assuming its workings revealed gameplay that mirrored real life random games) would draw a lot of customers away from the others that remained cloaked in smoke-and-dagger territory.

The only plausible reason for not doing so is that the workings would reveal a gameplay different to that of real world casinos, and that they predict/expect the reaction to this revelation would not be favourable.

 

[dunover]

Thanks for the compliment Dunover.

You're right. I do have tunnel vision.......I only accept the FACTS and refuse to entertain fanciful and totally baseless theories and conspiracies.

It has served me very well thus far.

I honestly don't see how you can possibly enjoy your gambling with all these theories and beliefs running around in your head. I know I wouldn't. I would just stop altogether if I thought it made a difference which MGS casino I played a slot at and whether I'd played it before, but that's just me.

I'll also say that if there WAS ANY advantage to playing a "virgin" slot, the advantage players would have discovered it long, long ago and it would have been taken down and altered to stop it occurring. The net is full of APs testing and investigating online casino games and they will pick up anything and everything. I know of a few events in the past of which I cannot speak that would prove this to you quite clearly....but alas you'll have to take my word for it, or not, as you please.

There aren't conspiracy theories, or anything near. 'running round in my head'. Just the opposite. I don't expect at all to win by playing a 'virgin' TSII. I never said that. I just expect it, through years of experience, a certain spread of gameplay to occur when I do. I know something is not normal here, nothing to do with winning or losing. Let's wait until the rep gets back to me with my figures/report I've requested. Should make interesting reading.

 

[mrmark21]

There aren't conspiracy theories, or anything near. 'running round in my head'. Just the opposite. I don't expect at all to win by playing a 'virgin' TSII. I never said that. I just expect it, through years of experience, a certain spread of gameplay to occur when I do. I know something is not normal here, nothing to do with winning or losing. Let's wait until the rep gets back to me with my figures/report I've requested. Should make interesting reading.

I agree, I'd also be interested to hear what the rep has to say.

 

[Nifty29]

There aren't conspiracy theories, or anything near. 'running round in my head'. Just the opposite. I don't expect at all to win by playing a 'virgin' TSII. I never said that. I just expect it, through years of experience, a certain spread of gameplay to occur when I do. I know something is not normal here, nothing to do with winning or losing. Let's wait until the rep gets back to me with my figures/report I've requested. Should make interesting reading.

You're still not getting it.

You cannot EXPECT anything from ANY slot at ANY time....."virgin" or not.

The spins are RANDOM.

It's actually pretty simple. You either believe the spins are RANDOM (in which case not one part of anything you say about "virgin" slots or "expecting a spread of game play" can be remotely true), or you think they are NOT RANDOM (in which case you would be correct in thinking the way that you do).

You can ask a thousand reps, but their answers will all be the same, because there is only one answer....each spin is entirely independent of the one before it, and has no effect on the one after it. If you believe differently you are saying that the slot/s is rigged and/or cheating. Sorry, but that is not an opinion, it is a fact, as every rep and person involved with MGS I have EVER heard of has stated that the slots ARE random and do not have a "memory" and pay no differently at one time than any other time.

What exactly did you ask the rep to get from MGS? Nothing MGS can provide will convince you that they are totally random, as there is nothing they can tell you that other members haven't already told you.

I'm really surprised than an obviously intelligent person such as yourself cannot see how what you are saying is just wrong. I have no objection to anyone having an opinion about anything, but if one is going to post it in public, one should come armed with some kind of evidence to support it.

At the end of the day, you ARE accusing/inferring that an MGS Accredited Casino, along with all other MGS casinos it would seem, are not providing their product "as advertised" and are passing off random slots as "cloaked fruities" or some other compensated game. Personally, I think that anyone who wants to make such claims/assertions should be called upon to provide reasonable evidence of such, or retract their statements/apologise. It is no small thing to insist that there is "something wrong" with a certain casino and it's software. It's a much bigger thing to do it with absolutely NO proof whatsoever other than 1200 spins where you did not come out on top.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm off to headbutt a different wall just for something different.

 

[Nifty29]

Nifty, I have never EVER told or accused (or even felt) MGS of being unfair or rigged, do not put such words in people's mouth! You simply afford yourself too much!

As for the proofs of whether MG powered operators can or cannot change crucial software stats, thanks for your answer. Although there's nothing officially stated in it but only some private conversations, I do believe Bryan and 32 Red deserve to be trusted!
The problem here and in so many other threads, dedicated to particular doubts regarding certain software provider is that these software providers are doing very few or even nothing to clear the mist! Why it's necessary to exist soooo many ambiguities in the way an online casino operates? Is it so hard for MGS for example to put some efforts in giving a publicity of some facts(including but limited to explanation of RTP, TRTP, are these stats operator independant, does it matter if a player is playing in only one or in many casinos, etc.), by explaining them officially and thus proving once again it is the real master and leader on the field of online gambling!
Anyway, after so many years, the online gambling industry has still much to improve when it comes to help their customers understand how the machine is actually working IMO. Would be much easier and there won't be such threads, I bet on that!

Hi ValDes

Please accept my apologies for what is a misunderstanding.

When I said "you" I didn't mean you personally....I should have worded it better and made that clear.

I do agree that there should be more transparency. No doubt. However, I doubt that players like the OP and others here would believe anything that was provided by the software providers anyway, as they do not even take on board what already HAS been revealed i.e. that the slots are random and have a fixed TRTP that is NOT operator-configurable (they are in fact "set in stone" as described by a senior MGS executive to Bryan, so it appear they may be "hard coded" and not be able to be changed, or that MGS are unwilling to have them changed under any circumstances. If anything, that should make people feel SAFER)

 

[ChillBill]

I will just say this again for those that may have missed it the other 923 times.

All MGS games have universally set TRTPs I.e. they are NOT operator configurable.

I'm not trying to rattle your chain Nifty but playing the devil's advocate, unless you have seen 1'st hand proof no MGS operator or MGS for that matter can tweak the TRTP on their slots, then those other 923 times hold as much weight as this latest statement.

What I think your missing here ppl are spending (their) money based on a belief these games are fair. If someone has a shockingly bad run or more so multiple back to back bad sessions then human nature is going to kick in. Until your personally wearing these loses for these members, the people losing have a right to express their dissatisfaction without fear of being condemned for it. Just saying

 

[Nifty29]

I'm not trying to rattle your chain Nifty but playing the devil's advocate, unless you have seen 1'st hand proof no MGS operator or MGS for that matter can tweak the TRTP on their slots, then those other 923 times hold as much weight as this latest statement.

What I think your missing here ppl are spending (their) money based on a belief these games are fair. If someone has a shockingly bad run or more so multiple back to back bad sessions then human nature is going to kick in. Until your personally wearing these loses for these members, the people losing have a right to express their dissatisfaction without fear of being condemned for it. Just saying

Oh I agree they have every right. Obviously you haven't read the thread properly or you would have known that.......I'd expect more from a man of much higher calibre than the rest of us penny-spinners.

I have personally "worn" bad "loses"......I think "your" being disingenuous by suggesting I win all the time.

We aren't talking about someone "expressing their dissatisfaction" with their results. We are talking about some suggesting that an accredited casino and a highly respected software provider are "fiddling" their games and/or TRTP I.E. CHEATING. If one is going to take their complaint to the next level by suggesting/accusing this, they should supply some vestige of evidence or data to back it up.

Remember, I'm not the one making the claims here. You cannot base an argument on "well proveme wrong" if you want to be taken seriously. If you feel that what I'm saying is not true, I suggest you email Bryan or anyone else involved with mgs software.

Instead of defending the OP et al against something I didn't actually say or imply, how about bringing something to the table yourself. Trying to "rattle my cage" might win you some high fives from the tinfoil hatters, but it doesn't add anything of any substance to the discussion.

 

[The Dude]

MGS operators cannot tweak the RTPs of a game. This is hard coded in the game itself - MGS sets the RTP during the development phase and is set when the game is launched. I haven't witnessed the development of the games, but I have been to their offices on the Isle of Man.

If there was a conspiracy, it would have to have been ingenious since there are loads of operators who go from one software platform to another. If they had any beans to spill, they would have spilt them by now.

@ dunover Obviously you had a bad run. It's happened to me, it's happened to most of us. I will never play Isis again - I have never won a free spin on that game - and I've played it a lot. It sucks, but it happens. Borrowing from Penn Jillette - "Luck is when you take statistics personally." You had a run of bad luck - don't take it personal.

 

[ValDes]

Hi ValDes

Please accept my apologies for what is a misunderstanding.

When I said "you" I didn't mean you personally....I should have worded it better and made that clear.

I do agree that there should be more transparency. No doubt. However, I doubt that players like the OP and others here would believe anything that was provided by the software providers anyway, as they do not even take on board what already HAS been revealed i.e. that the slots are random and have a fixed TRTP that is NOT operator-configurable (they are in fact "set in stone" as described by a senior MGS executive to Bryan, so it appear they may be "hard coded" and not be able to be changed, or that MGS are unwilling to have them changed under any circumstances. If anything, that should make people feel SAFER)

Apologies accepted.

 

[mrmark21]

Well that certainly cleared up any doubts in my mind regarding the RTP

I don't believe the software to be rigged, I deposited $10 earlier and turned it into 1k! Nothing rigged there I do however believe that more transparency on the software providers behalf would do the industry allot of good. IMO unanswered questions tend to lead too suspicion

 

[ValDes]

MGS operators cannot tweak the RTPs of a game. This is hard coded in the game itself - MGS sets the RTP during the development phase and is set when the game is launched. I haven't witnessed the development of the games, but I have been to their offices on the Isle of Man.
...

I think we all believe in your words, personally I do, for sure.

The problem is that Microgaming simply refuse to give certain publicity to some of the key details in the way their software operates! What the heck will change if they just put a couple of sentences on their website (which is a complete disaster for a company worth a few hundred million btw), explaining in simple and understandable language their own point of view and philosophy about words (of extreme importance!) like RTP, TRTP, RNG...?! No need to mention that having a clear answer to these questions would probably reduce topics, similar to this one, at least a few times IMO. And there is another aspect of disputes like this one here. Sometimes being the biggest, one of the oldest, the most popular and most liked online casino software should not only means a huge pile of money every day, but to be the most transparent either, as well as being the most innovate in terms of publicity, such as letting the player's eye glimpse under your clothing for example! Even for a second!~Just my two cents.

 

[Nifty29]

I think we all believe in your words, personally I do, for sure.

The problem is that Microgaming simply refuse to give certain publicity to some of the key details in the way their software operates! What the heck will change if they just put a couple of sentences on their website (which is a complete disaster for a company worth a few hundred million btw), explaining in simple and understandable language their own point of view and philosophy about words (of extreme importance!) like RTP, TRTP, RNG...?! No need to mention that having a clear answer to these questions would probably reduce topics, similar to this one, at least a few times IMO. And there is another aspect of disputes like this one here. Sometimes being the biggest, one of the oldest, the most popular and most liked online casino software should not only means a huge pile of money every day, but to be the most transparent either, as well as being the most innovate in terms of publicity, such as letting the player's eye glimpse under your clothing for example! Even for a second!~Just my two cents.

I agree...except that, as I said earlier, the tinfoil hatters won't believe it anyway, so possible they would be "preaching to the converted" as it were.

Another problem would be that things like RNG, RTP, TRTP can't be explained in a few sentences to someone who doesn't know anything about them. It would take pages and pages to explain it all in-depth. Just using a few words would probably create more questions and doubt than saying nothing.

The idea is sound though....and we have to remember that MGS has to protect it's commercial interests also and probably doesn't want to lay their backroom details out for all and sundry, especially their competitors.

Global regulation would be the best way, but we can't manage to regulate ANYTHING globally. Different jurisdictions means different POVs and different agendas and needs. It sucks, but it's the truth. Choosing a casino in a well-regulated jurisdiction sends a message to the others to pull their socks up or lose their licencees.

 

[ValDes]

I agree...except that, as I said earlier, the tinfoil hatters won't believe it anyway, so possible they would be "preaching to the converted" as it were.

Another problem would be that things like RNG, RTP, TRTP can't be explained in a few sentences to someone who doesn't know anything about them. It would take pages and pages to explain it all in-depth. Just using a few words would probably create more questions and doubt than saying nothing.

The idea is sound though....and we have to remember that MGS has to protect it's commercial interests also and probably doesn't want to lay their backroom details out for all and sundry, especially their competitors.

Global regulation would be the best way, but we can't manage to regulate ANYTHING globally. Different jurisdictions means different POVs and different agendas and needs. It sucks, but it's the truth. Choosing a casino in a well-regulated jurisdiction sends a message to the others to pull their socks up or lose their licencees.

That is exactly the reason why I put so much attention to the fact that Microgaming should and probably will be(eventually) the most innovate in terms of publicity. They didn't get their top position right now by just sitting on their a** and waiting for the competitors, right? So why not challenge them all by letting the door opened for a while, why not raise the curtain and thus proving itself as again as the undisputable number one?! What do you think the competition would do, I bet they will have no other options but to be more trasparent either. Otherwise they will simply be out of the bissness in a few years.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm amazed this one is still running, and I can't really add anything to what others have said, particularly Nifty.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that can be deduced from dunover's session on TSII, other than to say it was a bad run and maybe the casino will chuck a free chip his way as a gesture - and that's it.

There is no such thing as a 'virgin slot' and there is no such thing as 'reasonable expectations of events' across 1200 spins on a random high variance slot that will take hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of spins to reach its T-RTP.

1200 spins is too small a sample size to draw any conclusions whatsoever on ANY SLOT, let alone a high variance monster like TSII - end of.

For the last few months I've been playing almost exclusively at Jackpot Party, simply because I've settled down into a nice groove with the games, they always pay next day, I've grown to like the JPP, me and a few folks over at the Jackpotty Forms talk about our experiences there - etc etc. The point is that I've been playing the same WMS slots at Jackpot Party an awful lot across multiple sessions, and if I'm not playing for real money I'm often spinning in free money mode.

And to sort of reiterate my post about Starburst a few pages back in this thread, (how a single low variance slot can be massively Jekyll & Hyde), the different behaviour that can be observed on a single slot from one session to the next is amazing. I had the rudest good run with Alice And The Mad Tea Party at Jackpot Party, almost to the extent it was my 'go to slot' for expanding my bank roll, you know the feeling, 'I just can't lose on this game!'

Then of course I hit the inevitable bad sessions with it and it was like playing a completely different slot, if those sessions had coincided with me playing it at a different casino my tinfoil hat might have started twitching, because that's what gamblers do, we tend to look for irrational solutions and patterns in random behaviour. (And let's face it, ultimately gambling doesn't make sense, because the house will always, always win in the end, so the whole process is predicated on silliness.)

And as time's gone on Alice has behaved herself on some days and not on others, I just seemed to get off to a bit of an extreme start with it where it was very good, then very bad, and now it's settled down - and that's to be expected too, because the longer you play a slot and the more spins you make, the more it's going to start to behave at its T-RTP for you.

What I didn't do, and this is the relevance here, is think that something was 'wrong' or that the slot had been 'messed with' when I was having my bad sessions. Yes I was a bit unhappy about losing (who isn't? ), and yes I moaned about it a bit, but ONLY to say 'what a rubbish session that was', and NOT to start saying I thought there was something wrong, or to take it up with Jackpot Party as some sort of pseudo-complaint.

Random slots do weird things, we've all had very good runs and we like that weirdness. We've all had very bad runs, we don't like that weirdness. If you can't accept the latter, and only expect the former, then you need to not be playing slots

I think one of the problems with MG is that there are just so many damn casinos running their software, and it's very easy to have a whole pile of them installed on your PC, and therefore it's very easy to flit from one to another, and given how MG have gravitated towards releasing almost exclusively high and very high variance slots over the last few years, players are almost inevitably going to start to feel that some casinos play better than others, because they had a good run at Casino A but a bad run at Casino B - when if you look at the numbers they've probably only played a few thousand spins at each, and simply had some good luck and bad luck, but nowhere near enough of a sample size to say that one casino plays better than the other.

And to bring us full circle and to finally get back to the point, that's where we're at with dunover at Wintingo - 1200 spins, not enough to make any comment at all other than 'I had a sucky run'.

Sorry old chap, that's really all it comes down to.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The problem is that Microgaming simply refuse to give certain publicity to some of the key details in the way their software operates! What the heck will change if they just put a couple of sentences on their website (which is a complete disaster for a company worth a few hundred million btw),

I think that's just how they want to behave TBH - very quiet, very private, not showy at all.

You should see their headquarters here on the IOM, it's a completely anonymous office block in Douglas, you'd have no idea whatsoever it was the headquarters of the biggest online casino software provider in the world.

Apart from some fairly subtle 'M' logos in some of the windows, you could walk right past it and not have a clue what it was.

Not exactly ostentatious....

 

[ValDes]

Chopley, are you sure there isn't something like area 51 beneath?

 

[wintingo]

its obvious that MGs pays a hell of a lot more when a bonus is attached to your balance. time and time again it happened to me. so i only play 1st dep bonus with high stake, so if i hit then, i can grind out a decent win. after this no more bonus, but also no more wins. allthough at 32 red it dont matter. there i never ever get any form of chance...

this wintingo and also Epoca are new mgs flas casino's, i avoid them after having taken a look. the look like they run on software that predates windows xp and i think this is too easy to manipulate if one would want.

Again, we cannot speak for other MGS casinos but playing with or without a bonus on Wintingo makes no difference what so ever to the payout. The bonus money that we give is real money and not considered or flagged as bonus money. Again, we CANNOT manipulate or change anything on the games. Neither Microgaming allows us access the games nor does our Isle of Man license allow it.

 

[sscrabble]

Not sure if this will post , but just my experience of ts11. Each line is 500 spins at 60p - £300. £9900 in bets at 60p a spin - 16500 spins - £1079 lost - rtp about 89%. Not going to play it any more - I expect to lose but just not getting enough play for my money

£ lost ---- bonuses
---- £won ---- wildstorms

93 0 4 0
79 0 2 1
57 0 1 2
20 0 3 2
57 0 1 2
0 45 5 4
0 132 9 2
36 0 4 2
83 0 0 3
0 15 2 2
70 0 4 3
39 0 2 1
40 0 1 2
127 0 2 0
36 0 3 3
0 27 6 1
35 0 3 2
47 0 0 1
0 0 3 1
83 0 2 1
67 0 3 2
39 0 3 1
1 0 2 0
8 0 3 1
18 0 3 2
18 0 3 1
68 0 3 1
0 132 5 1
33 0 2 0
80 0 1 1
99 0 1 1
54 0 5 2
43 0 2 2

 

[Nifty29]

Not sure if this will post , but just my experience of ts11. £9900 in bets at 60p a spin - 16500 spins - £1079 lost - rtp about 89%. Not going to play it any more - I expect to lose but just not getting enough play for my money

£ lost ---- bonuses
---- £won ---- wildstorms

93 0 4 0
79 0 2 1
57 0 1 2
20 0 3 2
57 0 1 2
0 45 5 4
0 132 9 2
36 0 4 2
83 0 0 3
0 15 2 2
70 0 4 3
39 0 2 1
40 0 1 2
127 0 2 0
36 0 3 3
0 27 6 1
35 0 3 2
47 0 0 1
0 0 3 1
83 0 2 1
67 0 3 2
39 0 3 1
1 0 2 0
8 0 3 1
18 0 3 2
18 0 3 1
68 0 3 1
0 132 5 1
33 0 2 0
80 0 1 1
99 0 1 1
54 0 5 2
43 0 2 2

It's within normal expectations for a 95% TRTP slot, particularly a high variance one and over a small sample size of 16500.

Considering the 5 reel Wild Desire probably accounts for 1-2% of the TRTP, and you didn't hit it, an RTP of 89% is nothing to complain about.....except that you didn't win of course, although I guess there were times when you were ahead at least. It's the old saying....the more you play the more you lose.

 

[mrmark21]

I'm amazed this one is still running, and I can't really add anything to what others have said, particularly Nifty.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that can be deduced from dunover's session on TSII, other than to say it was a bad run and maybe the casino will chuck a free chip his way as a gesture - and that's it.

There is no such thing as a 'virgin slot' and there is no such thing as 'reasonable expectations of events' across 1200 spins on a random high variance slot that will take hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of spins to reach its T-RTP.

1200 spins is too small a sample size to draw any conclusions whatsoever on ANY SLOT, let alone a high variance monster like TSII - end of.

For the last few months I've been playing almost exclusively at Jackpot Party, simply because I've settled down into a nice groove with the games, they always pay next day, I've grown to like the JPP, me and a few folks over at the Jackpotty Forms talk about our experiences there - etc etc. The point is that I've been playing the same WMS slots at Jackpot Party an awful lot across multiple sessions, and if I'm not playing for real money I'm often spinning in free money mode.

And to sort of reiterate my post about Starburst a few pages back in this thread, (how a single low variance slot can be massively Jekyll & Hyde), the different behaviour that can be observed on a single slot from one session to the next is amazing. I had the rudest good run with Alice And The Mad Tea Party at Jackpot Party, almost to the extent it was my 'go to slot' for expanding my bank roll, you know the feeling, 'I just can't lose on this game!'

Then of course I hit the inevitable bad sessions with it and it was like playing a completely different slot, if those sessions had coincided with me playing it at a different casino my tinfoil hat might have started twitching, because that's what gamblers do, we tend to look for irrational solutions and patterns in random behaviour. (And let's face it, ultimately gambling doesn't make sense, because the house will always, always win in the end, so the whole process is predicated on silliness.)

And as time's gone on Alice has behaved herself on some days and not on others, I just seemed to get off to a bit of an extreme start with it where it was very good, then very bad, and now it's settled down - and that's to be expected too, because the longer you play a slot and the more spins you make, the more it's going to start to behave at its T-RTP for you.

What I didn't do, and this is the relevance here, is think that something was 'wrong' or that the slot had been 'messed with' when I was having my bad sessions. Yes I was a bit unhappy about losing (who isn't? ), and yes I moaned about it a bit, but ONLY to say 'what a rubbish session that was', and NOT to start saying I thought there was something wrong, or to take it up with Jackpot Party as some sort of pseudo-complaint.

Random slots do weird things, we've all had very good runs and we like that weirdness. We've all had very bad runs, we don't like that weirdness. If you can't accept the latter, and only expect the former, then you need to not be playing slots

I think one of the problems with MG is that there are just so many damn casinos running their software, and it's very easy to have a whole pile of them installed on your PC, and therefore it's very easy to flit from one to another, and given how MG have gravitated towards releasing almost exclusively high and very high variance slots over the last few years, players are almost inevitably going to start to feel that some casinos play better than others, because they had a good run at Casino A but a bad run at Casino B - when if you look at the numbers they've probably only played a few thousand spins at each, and simply had some good luck and bad luck, but nowhere near enough of a sample size to say that one casino plays better than the other.

And to bring us full circle and to finally get back to the point, that's where we're at with dunover at Wintingo - 1200 spins, not enough to make any comment at all other than 'I had a sucky run'.

Sorry old chap, that's really all it comes down to.

Chopley would I be correct to assume that you've changed you're stance on Microgaming from the post you made on this thread?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/32red-losing-streak.52049/

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Chopley would I be correct to assume that you've changed you're stance on Microgaming from the post you made on this thread?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/32red-losing-streak.52049/

I personally still have my doubts about MG's slots and their streakiness, but I voted with my wallet on that one and almost completely stopping playing MG.

I only have 32Red installed, and only on a single PC in the house, and I very rarely play there, and only then on small deposits. (I've deposited twice there this year I think, whereas at Jackpot Party I can and do deposit several times per week, for example.)

My points in this thread were aimed at random slots in general, rather than MG slots specifically.

I have started to wonder however if the regularly-observed 'streaky' behaviour of MG slots is more down to their often insanely high variance, rather than actual non-random behaviour.

So to answer your question mark, I'd say my position has shifted since I made that post, but I still have my reservations.

 

[mrmark21]

I personally still have my doubts about MG's slots and their streakiness, but I voted with my wallet on that one and almost completely stopping playing MG.

I only have 32Red installed, and only on a single PC in the house, and I very rarely play there, and only then on small deposits. (I've deposited twice there this year I think, whereas at Jackpot Party I can and do deposit several times per week, for example.)

My points in this thread were aimed at random slots in general, rather than MG slots specifically.

I have started to wonder however if the regularly-observed 'streaky' behaviour of MG slots is more down to their often insanely high variance, rather than actual non-random behaviour.

So to answer your question mark, I'd say my position has shifted since I made that post, but I still have my reservations.

You're post has just summed up my thoughts exactly. Thanks Chopley

 

[Balthazar]

I have started to wonder however if the regularly-observed 'streaky' behaviour of MG slots is more down to their often insanely high variance, rather than actual non-random behaviour.

It's funny because the single most streaky slot I've ever played is a low variance Netent slot (Starburst). Played it for thousands of spins again last weekend and it was UNBELIEVABLY streaky, almost predictable. I have to agree with your Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde comment earlier.

 

[dunover]

Remember, it's perfectly possible to have a truly random slot and still have parameters for deviation.
Who says the pool of random numbers/awards can't be (as part of the program) adjusted when either too far over or under variance?
ALL wins would still be available, the slot would still be random; the player would then see a 'streakiness' as Chopley puts it.
Or are winning/losing streaks a figment of my imagination too?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Remember, it's perfectly possible to have a truly random slot and still have parameters for deviation.
Who says the pool of random numbers/awards can't be (as part of the program) adjusted when either too far over or under variance?
ALL wins would still be available, the slot would still be random; the player would then see a 'streakiness' as Chopley puts it.
Or are winning/losing streaks a figment of my imagination too?

Well this is the crux of the matter dunover, and it's what Nifty has been driving at as well.

If what you're suggesting above is the case then the slot is cheating and is rigged, it's as simple as that. A random slot doesn't 'know' when it's under or over expected variance, and its behaviour will never change on that basis.

As a point of interest, such a beast does exist in the UK land based slot market, in a category known as 'B3', and whilst random they operate on the 'finite pool of results' model.

-----------------------

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

TRUE RANDOM MACHINE WITH 1,000,000 POSSIBLE RESULTS - Every spin of the reels picks a result at random from the available pool, and then that result is returned to the pool for the next spin. <<<< THIS IS WHAT WE ASSUME FAIR RANDOM ONLINE SLOTS TO BEHAVE LIKE

B3 RANDOM MACHINE WITH 1,000,000 POSSIBLE RESULTS - Every spin of the reels picks a result at random from the available pool, and then that result is removed from the pool, the next spin then picks a result from what's left in the pool, which is then removed from the pool, and so on. When the pool is exhausted, the slot resets to all 1,000,000 available results and starts again. <<<< THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE INTIMATING IS GOING ON WITH TSII, OR SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES

-----------------------

The advantage of the second model from an operator perspective is that the machines stick more closely to their T-RTP, because once a jackpot is paid it's removed from the pool until all other results in the pool are exhausted. Truly random machines can pay out multiple jackpots in quick succession (which can be a pain simply because they run out of money to pay out with, as much as anything else, as a lot of B3s are sited in arcades), whereas a compensated B3 can't. (Which sucks as a player of course, because you can be playing a game that is incapable of paying the advertised jackpot for an extended period of time.)

The relevance here is that if you think MG slots employ this sort of 'control' mechanism or indeed anything even remotely like it, then you don't think they're random and you do think that they cheat - this is what I think me and Nifty are getting it.

Option 1 - You had a bad run but it's down to random bad luck.

Option 2 - You had a bad run that you don't believe can be explained by random chance and therefore you believe that the slot cheats.

I'm on record as stating that I have my doubts about MG and the streakiness of their slots, but I just stopped playing them, and that sorted that out

I'm not trying to be awkward here dunover, but you really do have to choose (1) or (2), there is no inbetween!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Or are winning/losing streaks a figment of my imagination too?

No of course they're not!

But random results do create streaks, which is how we sometimes win at gambling, if a slot wasn't capable of paying over 100% RTP despite being random, we'd never win a penny!

This is all it comes down to dunover, either you think your TSII session is a bad losing streak EXPLAINED BY RANDOM BAD LUCK, or you don't think that's the case. If you think it's not the case, then you are saying that you think it cheats.

 

[243 lines=daft]

I'm not trying to be awkward here dunover, but you really do have to choose (1) or (2), there is no inbetween!

Yes there is.

Option '1 and a half'
would be that
Microgaming ensures the RTP is set in stone at the development phase, which has been stated to Bryan by MG and which he has stated on here and which nobody is disputing, BUT... the process of ensuring that effectively involves changes in the pools of 'target points' for the RNG to hit depending on whether the house is ahead or behind (aka bounce points of support and resistance around the set in stone RTP). The RNGs are clean and everyone has the same chances of hitting the available target points.

If Option '1 and a half' is indeed the case, then whether this is technically 'fixed/rigged' or not, it doesn't follow that a player that believes this to be the case would necessarily choose not to play at MG, because the hot streaks can be as intense as the cold streaks for the exact same reason and the pursuit of such molten hot streaks is obviously going to have an allure to the gambler's mindset. (As well as the basic entertainment-in-itself element that Mark pointed out is always a factor.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes there is.

Option '1 and a half'
would be that
Microgaming ensures the RTP is set in stone at the development phase, which has been stated to Bryan by MG and which he has stated on here and which nobody is disputing, BUT... the process of ensuring that effectively involves changes in the pools of 'target points' for the RNG to hit depending on whether the house is ahead or behind (aka bounce points of support and resistance around the set in stone RTP). The RNGs are clean and everyone has the same chances of hitting the available target points.

If Option '1 and a half' is indeed the case, then whether this is technically 'fixed/rigged' or not, it doesn't follow that a player that believes this to be the case would necessarily choose not to play at MG, because the hot streaks can be as intense as the cold streaks for the exact same reason and the pursuit of such molten hot streaks is obviously going to have an allure the gambler's mindset.

That's Option 2.

Seriously guys, why is this so hard to get straight?

If the RNG is interfered with in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER then the slot is not random.

The only fair way for a random slot to work is that every possible result is available on every single spin. You press 'SPIN', the RNG calls a result from EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE RESULT, that result is returned and you get to see that result - end of, that's it.

If the pool of available results is dynamically adjusted - (i.e. certain results are 'blocked' or simply not made available to the RNG) - to ensure a close adherence to RTP then the slot is not random and is not fair.

 

[De Beuker]

Streakyness is just what makes it random.
Its inevitable.
Even the lowest of the lowest variancegames are streaky as hell, even Blackjack is.
If it wasn't you would just gradually lose a few percent of your balance every hour.
Same goes for videopoker, even JOB, which is VERY low variance.

My most memorable session on Immortal Romance was actually at Wintingo, I started with a 50.- balance, only played 0.30 spins for more than 5 hours, over 2000 spins, and ended up withdrawing 400.-
The thing was, I never hit anything over 100x bet during that entire session.
It just kept giving me 5oaks with wilds all the time. It was crazy.
Dont know how many times I got free spins, but I turned the entire hall of spins into gold, so it was more than 25 times.

My Nemesisgame atm is NetEnts The Reel Steal. (the BDBA clone)
My personal RTP on that game has to be somewhere in the low 80's, if not less.
I play it several times a week, or played, as I've finally given up on it.
Last time I hit anything on it was September last year, when I got the woman (goldbars) with wild in normal play.
Ever since, I have not been able to leave that piece of sh*t of a game with more than I entered it.
No wins over 50x bet.
And I'm talking about 12-15K in spins, more than 60 sessions.

Now does this in any way guarantee that the next time I try The Reel Steal, I will win?
Somehow I dont think so.

Btw, Dunover, my personal results on TSII are beyond awful.
My first 2000 spins gave me 3 freespinrounds, 2 non-paying shitstorms and a highest win of 33x bet.
At that point I gave up on the game.

 

[dunover]

Streakyness is just what makes it random.
Its inevitable.
Even the lowest of the lowest variancegames are streaky as hell, even Blackjack is.
If it wasn't you would just gradually lose a few percent of your balance every hour.
Same goes for videopoker, even JOB, which is VERY low variance.

My most memorable session on Immortal Romance was actually at Wintingo, I started with a 50.- balance, only played 0.30 spins for more than 5 hours, over 2000 spins, and ended up withdrawing 400.-
The thing was, I never hit anything over 100x bet during that entire session.
It just kept giving me 5oaks with wilds all the time. It was crazy.
Dont know how many times I got free spins, but I turned the entire hall of spins into gold, so it was more than 25 times.

My Nemesisgame atm is NetEnts The Reel Steal. (the BDBA clone)
My personal RTP on that game has to be somewhere in the low 80's, if not less.
I play it several times a week, or played, as I've finally given up on it.
Last time I hit anything on it was September last year, when I got the woman (goldbars) with wild in normal play.
Ever since, I have not been able to leave that piece of sh*t of a game with more than I entered it.
No wins over 50x bet.
And I'm talking about 12-15K in spins, more than 60 sessions.

Now does this in any way guarantee that the next time I try The Reel Steal, I will win?
Somehow I dont think so.

Btw, Dunover, my personal results on TSII are beyond awful.
My first 2000 spins gave me 3 freespinrounds, 2 non-paying shitstorms and a highest win of 33x bet.
At that point I gave up on the game.

Then you hammered me on what I 'achieved' on the Wintingo one.

 

[dunover]

No of course they're not!

But random results do create streaks, which is how we sometimes win at gambling, if a slot wasn't capable of paying over 100% RTP despite being random, we'd never win a penny!

This is all it comes down to dunover, either you think your TSII session is a bad losing streak EXPLAINED BY RANDOM BAD LUCK, or you don't think that's the case. If you think it's not the case, then you are saying that you think it cheats.

I get your point, always have Chopley.
The thing is, we have all swallowed the TRTP bit as gospel, which it is by itself. It assumes a non-dynamic pool, number picked, put back in, ad infinitum.
What none of us really know, is what scope there is in the programming (still within the boundaries of TRTP and 'randomness') for deviation or correction. All slots, ranging from DoA or BDBA to the lowest variance ones to some degree sustain play beyond losing every spin of a deposit with zero return. Obviously the multitudes of small part-credit wins in the 'pool' account for this. I have played BDBA and most recently DoA and have never had a session that gave me such a low RTP as this, yet I would expect it on those two. The session(s) I am referring to on TSII were unprecented for any slot on any MG casino I've played.
I actually hope you are 100% correct; I will have a session on Wintingo again, same slot, and get the run of my life on it. I will get a bonus round every other heartstopper. I will get sh!tstorms every 50 spins. I will get overlapping 5-oaks with wilds. In between planty of 4-oaks with wilds. Only my 'luck' therefore will be a factor.
But it will not happen the way it is performing. I wish I could let you guys log in and play my TSII and see the deadness, the black hole of wins for yourself.

 

[Balthazar]

The thing that you never understood Dunover is they don't have to cheat or compensate in order to achieve TRTP. Since they don't have to cheat, why would they do it? They get the same profit at the end.

 

[Borgie]

I get your point, always have Chopley.
The thing is, we have all swallowed the TRTP bit as gospel, which it is by itself. It assumes a non-dynamic pool, number picked, put back in, ad infinitum.
What none of us really know, is what scope there is in the programming (still within the boundaries of TRTP and 'randomness') for deviation or correction. All slots, ranging from DoA or BDBA to the lowest variance ones to some degree sustain play beyond losing every spin of a deposit with zero return. Obviously the multitudes of small part-credit wins in the 'pool' account for this. I have played BDBA and most recently DoA and have never had a session that gave me such a low RTP as this, yet I would expect it on those two. The session(s) I am referring to on TSII were unprecented for any slot on any MG casino I've played.
I actually hope you are 100% correct; I will have a session on Wintingo again, same slot, and get the run of my life on it. I will get a bonus round every other heartstopper. I will get sh!tstorms every 50 spins. I will get overlapping 5-oaks with wilds. In between planty of 4-oaks with wilds. Only my 'luck' therefore will be a factor.
But it will not happen the way it is performing. I wish I could let you guys log in and play my TSII and see the deadness, the black hole of wins for yourself.

So if it does not perform as you think it should and you do believe they can cheat - why oh why are you still playing it? Don't go and waste money to show us that it is a black hole - it's not our money , it's not us that believes its been tampered with or changed. Move on and leave it - or am I missing something?

 

[243 lines=daft]

The thing that you never understood Dunover is they don't have to cheat or compensate in order to achieve TRTP. Since they don't have to cheat, why would they do it? They get the same profit at the end.

At the end of what? A year, a month, a week or an hour?

A single table in a real world casino might take 2 years to return its exact TRTP (though the house as a whole would expect to reach that point faster).

An online casino could in theory programme software to set bounce points that would ensure a set in stone RTP was delivered in a much shorter timeframe. And in doing so would still satisfy an examination of results falling withing expectation, any concerns about clean RNG or player targetting, and would still be able to say to the owner of a gambling forum that their games' RTP was set in stone at the development stage.

I'm speculating of course (we all are including you, as none of these companies provide the information that would cease all speculation, as Valdes
points out) but I'm pointing out it's wrong to suggest that just because all casinos expect a house edge to generate profit eventually there would be nothing to gain from setting the RTP in stone in the software.

 

[dunover]

So if it does not perform as you think it should and you do believe they can cheat - why oh why are you still playing it? Don't go and waste money to show us that it is a black hole - it's not our money , it's not us that believes its been tampered with or changed. Move on and leave it - or am I missing something?

I ain't playing it (At Wintingo) although never say never. I should not be able to tell you it's a black hole - remember it's random...
In advance though, I fully expect it to carry on the same.

 

[dunover]

At the end of what? A year, a month, a week or an hour?

A single table in a real world casino might take 2 years to return its exact TRTP (though the house as a whole would expect to reach that point faster).

An online casino could in theory programme software to set bounce points that would ensure a set in stone RTP was delivered in a much shorter timeframe. And in doing so would still satisfy an examination of results falling withing expectation, any concerns about clean RNG or player targetting, and would still be able to say to the owner of a gambling forum that their games' RTP was set in stone at the development stage.

This is the one factor I could also think of in order to explain streakiness, my experience of 'normal' play and expectations of certain events during play - all still satisfying the conditions of 'randomness'. While of course avoiding accusations of metallic headgear.

 

[Nifty29]

I get your point, always have Chopley.
The thing is, we have all swallowed the TRTP bit as gospel, which it is by itself. It assumes a non-dynamic pool, number picked, put back in, ad infinitum.
What none of us really know, is what scope there is in the programming (still within the boundaries of TRTP and 'randomness') for deviation or correction. All slots, ranging from DoA or BDBA to the lowest variance ones to some degree sustain play beyond losing every spin of a deposit with zero return. Obviously the multitudes of small part-credit wins in the 'pool' account for this. I have played BDBA and most recently DoA and have never had a session that gave me such a low RTP as this, yet I would expect it on those two. The session(s) I am referring to on TSII were unprecented for any slot on any MG casino I've played.
I actually hope you are 100% correct; I will have a session on Wintingo again, same slot, and get the run of my life on it. I will get a bonus round every other heartstopper. I will get sh!tstorms every 50 spins. I will get overlapping 5-oaks with wilds. In between planty of 4-oaks with wilds. Only my 'luck' therefore will be a factor.
But it will not happen the way it is performing. I wish I could let you guys log in and play my TSII and see the deadness, the black hole of wins for yourself.

I don't why I'm saying this again but.....

If the slot adjusts ANYTHING at ANY TIME it is CHEATING.

TRTP has got NOTHING to do with timeframes. It is a MEASURE of what the slot will have paid back once every combination has come up once.....a cycle....BUT every combination will NOT come up only once and wait until all others come up before repeating (unless its a B3).....SO there is NO telling how long it takes for a complete cycle to happen. Anyway, the casino doesn't NEED to know any timeframe, as the more the slot is played, the more the actual RTP of the GAME gravitates toward the TRTP via the Law of Large Numbers.

If TSII alters the "pool" of available results ONE IOTA at ANY time it is CHEATING.

The casinos don't NEED to artificially create streaks one way or the other. Variance via the paytable does that naturally.

Chopley summed it up perfectly IMO.

If anyone believes anything different, and stops playing right now, well at least they deserve some respect for actually pulling their own sled. I just can't see the point of anyone continuing to play if they even have .0001% of doubt about the randomness/fairness of the game.

Its important to remember that, in the medium to long term, there is NO benefit for a casino in "being a B3" I.e. ensuring a fixed RTP over a fixed term, as they will achieve the same result naturally. In fact, it CAN actually COST them money as there is NO possibility of a slightly HIGHER profit for them over time.

 

[243 lines=daft]

I don't why I'm saying this again but.....

If the slot adjusts ANYTHING at ANY TIME it is CHEATING.

That's a comforting statement. Unfortunately it's not Microgaming stating the facts, it's you stating your opinion (to which you are of course perfectly entitled).

The point is that the casinos do not state this at all. We are left with what amount to biscuit crumbs. Essentially meaningless tests on whether results fall within expectation and assurances of set in stone RTPs, neither of which addresses the issue at all.
It would be so easy (and such good publicity) for these companies to provide clarification but they do not.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That's a comforting statement. Unfortunately it's not Microgaming stating the facts, it's you stating your opinion (to which you are of course perfectly entitled).

The point is that the casinos do not state this at all. We are left with what amount to biscuit crumbs. Essentially meaningless tests on whether results fall within expectation and assurances of set in stone RTPs, neither of which addresses the issue at all.
It would be so easy (and such good publicity) for these companies to provide clarification but they do not.

But this is what both me and Nifty and saying, if you doubt the fairness of MG slots THEN DO NOT PLAY THEM!

You either trust the provider or you don't.

If you do, play away, if you don't, stop playing - there's ultimately no 'proof' either way.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Just to give you an idea of what a bad session on a high variance slot can look like, here's one of mine at Jackpot Party from last June, playing nothing but Bruce Lee, which was so awful I felt compelled to ask for the logs.

Ignore the 'overall RTP' figure because that included a Jackpot Party Progressive hit (which provided the biggest win of the session by far, and still wasn't enough to rescue it from being a multi-deposit nightmare of a bust out).

As you can see, my actual RTP on the slot itself was 68.53%, and my biggest win was 61x stake, and that's over 3175 spins.

Also note that this was indeed over 3175 spins, so a far bigger sample size than dunover's TSII session, but still nowhere near enough for me to declare that something was 'wrong' with the slot.

Make no mistake, this was a tawdry extended session, absolutely awful and thoroughly depressing, which is why I asked for the logs as I wanted to run the numbers.

BUT IT WAS JUST A BAD SESSION, I HAD VERY BAD RANDOM LUCK - THAT'S IT.

I didn't think anything was 'wrong' with the slot, I still continue to play at Jackpot Party and Bruce Lee remains one of my favourite slots.

This is online gambling, these are random games with a house edge, you've got to roll with the punches, and once in a while you're going to take a solid uppercut to the chin, especially if you're taking on high variance slots. By all means have a good old moan about an awful session, but please do recognise that's all it actually is - bad luck.

Old Attachment (Invalid)

 

[dunover]

Just to give you an idea of what a bad session on a high variance slot can look like, here's one of mine at Jackpot Party from last June, playing nothing but Bruce Lee, which was so awful I felt compelled to ask for the logs.

Ignore the 'overall RTP' figure because that included a Jackpot Party Progressive hit (which provided the biggest win of the session by far, and still wasn't enough to rescue it from being a multi-deposit nightmare of a bust out).

As you can see, my actual RTP on the slot itself was 68.53%, and my biggest win was 61x stake, and that's over 3175 spins.

Also note that this was indeed over 3175 spins, so a far bigger sample size than dunover's TSII session, but still nowhere near enough for me to declare that something was 'wrong' with the slot.

Make no mistake, this was a tawdry extended session, absolutely awful and thoroughly depressing, which is why I asked for the logs as I wanted to run the numbers.

BUT IT WAS JUST A BAD SESSION, I HAD VERY BAD RANDOM LUCK - THAT'S IT.

I didn't think anything was 'wrong' with the slot, I still continue to play at Jackpot Party and Bruce Lee remains one of my favourite slots.

This is online gambling, these are random games with a house edge, you've got to roll with the punches, and once in a while you're going to take a solid uppercut to the chin, especially if you're taking on high variance slots. By all means have a good old moan about an awful session, but please do recognise that's all it actually is - bad luck.

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Yes, just tell me, was this before or after your monster you had on video??
Secondly, you felt compelled to ask for a report after this rubbish (even though it is a far higher variance game than TSII) so you must understand why the Wintingo rep is preparing the same for me, yes?
He got back to me today, still awaiting the info from MG.
If it transpires that my RTP is far less than your tawdry 68%, on a lower variance game, then put a 2xmultiplier on my ire compared to yours at the time you asked for that log.
I know you is firmly in the Nifty camp, but surely it's a bit disingenuous ex-post facto to tell me I'm unlucky, when at the time you were so uncertain it was 'unlucky' that you felt compelled, as I do, to ask for a report?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, just tell me, was this before or after your monster you had on video??
Secondly, you felt compelled to ask for a report after this rubbish (even though it is a far higher variance game than TSII) so you must understand why the Wintingo rep is preparing the same for me, yes?
He got back to me today, still awaiting the info from MG.
If it transpires that my RTP is far less than your tawdry 68%, on a lower variance game, then put a 2xmultiplier on my ire compared to yours at the time you asked for that log.
I know you is firmly in the Nifty camp, but surely it's a bit disingenuous ex-post facto to tell me I'm unlucky, when at the time you were so uncertain it was 'unlucky' that you felt compelled, as I do, to ask for a report?

You misunderstand old chap, I didn't think anything was 'wrong' with my session, I was just interested to see what the actual numbers were, I do occasionally ask for the logs after a real stinker (I've done the same at other casinos and I plug them into my Excel spreadsheet that crunches all the numbers for me), because it's nice to see it down in plain black and white sometimes.

Please let me be clear on this, I wasn't 'uncertain' about anything, I just knew I'd had a really bad session and I never thought anything beyond that of it.

IIRC at the time I had this session I'd had one 20 free spins bonus round on the slot (paid around 1200x stake IIRC), but it was before I had the 1689x stake monster.

 

[243 lines=daft]

I must admit I don't like the ' If you don't like it, don't play it' line that the MG apologists keep falling back onto.

It's a bit like saying... if a lady wanted to join a sewing club but found out that the rule was that to join she had to sleep with the guy in charge, and then when she raised concerns was told 'if you don't like it, don't join the sewing club!'

Well okay but what if that was the only sewing club for miles around? Or if all the sewing clubs had similar rules and she really wanted to do some sewing?

In the same way, when an accredited casino emails me a tempting bonus I am often going to want to use it, and if it's an MG casino then (because there's only about 5 games I play at MG and know their nuances) I will take the good or the bad because I know that the software is 'black boxed' to that casino and that I'll have just as much chance as anyone else of coming in at the right point of the bounce (and that if I come in at just the right time the streaks can be absolutely extraordinary, per the post about a deposit of 10 being turned into 1000 from a couple of pages back, or my own experience of hitting four big hands within ten deals playing cyberstud)
It's just that it would be a lot better to know if I have a painful blow out like the one described by the OP that true random luck had dictated that.

At the moment we aren't given that knowledge, and are possibly being let down by authority figures who should be demanding that knowledge is provided as standard. (Regulators and even politicians)

 

[Nifty29]

That's a comforting statement. Unfortunately it's not Microgaming stating the facts, it's you stating your opinion (to which you are of course perfectly entitled).

The point is that the casinos do not state this at all. We are left with what amount to biscuit crumbs. Essentially meaningless tests on whether results fall within expectation and assurances of set in stone RTPs, neither of which addresses the issue at all.
It would be so easy (and such good publicity) for these companies to provide clarification but they do not.

Did you totally ignore Casinomeisters AND Wintingos statements in this very thread?

It is not "my opinion". If it was, I would have said "I believe...."or "I think...."before my statements. I didn't. Neither did the two credible sources above. If you believe Bryan and Wintingo are LYING.....and you obviously must....then common decency dictates that you should either provide irrefutable evidence to show that they ARE lying, or apologize for suggesting it in the first place. You either believe what they say, or not....there is NO third option.

Edit: What is this "bounce" nonsense? The only "bounce" is produced by VARIANCE which occurs NATURALLY with NO interference required. Putting "bounce points" in artificially provides NO financial benefit for the casino AT ALL. Add to that the fact that absolutely NO evidence ever presented here indicates this form of rigging even exists (apart from awps which depend on it), and you have an OPINION bordering on a conspiracy theory with ZERO facts or credibility behind it. I'd ho so far as to say that my dear departed mate Seventh777 would have a hard time jumping on that bandwagon.



Chopley and myself (who are in the same "camp" ) are stating FACTS. If you or anyone else wish to continue disputing those facts, then you could at least provide some kind of actual real argument other than "yeah well I think you're wrong".

You also obviously didn't read what I wrote about there being no actual benefit in rigging games (and it IS rigging unless stated to be compensated like a B3) to produce an exact RTP at given points/in a set period. It CAN actually COST the casino in the long run.

Can you also explain why, as Bryan said, with operators changing providers in some cases multiple times, and with thousands and thousands of aggrieved ex-employees generated over the years, senior management included, it is that NOT ONE PERSON has come forward and even suggested that MGS software is rigged or not as advertised? Don't bother with the confidentiality clauses.....industry people have already said that these are no real obstacle, given the anonymity that the net provides and the fact that many employees hail from other countries where legal action is not possible.

I would love a maths whiz to work out the odds that NOT ONE former employee of an MGS casino, nor the company itself, has ever come forward to spill the beans. Ill bet its far longer than Dunovers piddling TSII spin sample.

I say again....offer some REAL argument backed up with REAL evidence and I'm all ears, as I'm sure Chopley and others are too. If you think the response won't be fair and open minded, check out Chopleys and my own replies in the finsoft thread....its a REAL example of a game being rigged, and you might want to notice how many games were played (even though the sample size was still relatively small).

Chopley is quite correct....there is NO option 3, or 1.5 or 1.82997...you either think mgs and Wintingo rig their games, or you don't.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Did you totally ignore Casinomeisters AND Wintingos statements in this very thread?
It is not "my opinion". If it was, I would have said "I believe...."or "I think...."before my statements. I didn't. Neither did the two credible sources above. If you believe Bryan and Wintingo are LYING.....and you obviously must....then common decency dictates that you should either provide irrefutable evidence to show that they ARE lying, or apologize for suggesting it in the first place. You either believe what they say, or not....there is NO third option.

Nifty I think that is very unfair to try and make out I've suggested that Bryan was lying.

If you had properly read post 78 where I outlined the idea of an 'option 1 and a half' I said at the start of that outline

'Microgaming ensures the RTP is set in stone at the development phase, which has been stated to Bryan by MG and which he has stated on here and which nobody is disputing'

I would assume it is very clear from that line that I absolutely believe that MG said that to Bryan and that neither party is lying.
Also I would not be even posting on here if I had any doubt at all in Casinomeister being absolutely on the level.

There is a world of difference between a statement that the RTP is set in stone at the development phase
and the statement 'If the slot adjusts ANYTHING at ANY TIME it is CHEATING.' which is YOUR WORDS ONLY.

Please do not put words in my mouth

 

[Nifty29]

Nifty I think that is very unfair to try and make out I've suggested that Bryan was lying.

If you had properly read post 78 where I outlined the idea of an 'option 1 and a half' I said at the start of that outline

'Microgaming ensures the RTP is set in stone at the development phase, which has been stated to Bryan by MG and which he has stated on here and which nobody is disputing'

I would assume it is very clear from that line that I absolutely believe that MG said that to Bryan and that neither party is lying.

There is a world of difference between a statement that the RTP is set in stone at the development phase
and the statement 'If the slot adjusts ANYTHING at ANY TIME it is CHEATING.' which is YOUR WORDS ONLY.

Please do not put words in my mouth

What does the first sentence that Bryan posted, and the last two sentences that Wintingo posted say?

Do you believe that to be the truth?

If you do, then I will apologize to you. It will also mean that you no longer believe the MGS slots are "riggable" or "rigged". If you still do I.e. you still believe in artificial "bounce points" and artificial compensation, then I suggest you contact Bryan personally and ask him why he allows such software to be promoted and awarded on his site.

Bryan quite obviously believes the slots and games are 100% fair and random.....he has stated such many times. Is he lying? Is he putting his personal and professional reputation on the line to protect a company that rigs its slots and cheats players by offering one thing and providing another?

Instead of worrying about what I say and pointing out tidbits of tidbits that don't directly relate to the accusations/assertions being made by yourself and the OP, how about providing a REAL argument backed up with something concrete? Completely irrelevant and non-related examples involving sexual escapades in community sewing clubs just doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid. The whole scenario is actually quite silly, but it does go to show how little actual material or fact is available to support the claims you're making.

 

[dunover]

What does the first sentence that Bryan posted, and the last two sentences that Wintingo posted say?

Do you believe that to be the truth?

If you do, then I will apologize to you. It will also mean that you no longer believe the MGS slots are "riggable" or "rigged". If you still do I.e. you still believe in artificial "bounce points" and artificial compensation, then I suggest you contact Bryan personally and ask him why he allows such software to be promoted and awarded on his site.

Bryan quite obviously believes the slots and games are 100% fair and random.....he has stated such many times. Is he lying? Is he putting his personal and professional reputation on the line to protect a company that rigs its slots and cheats players by offering one thing and providing another?

Instead of worrying about what I say and pointing out tidbits of tidbits that don't directly relate to the accusations/assertions being made by yourself and the OP, how about providing a REAL argument backed up with something concrete? Completely irrelevant and non-related examples involving sexual escapades in community sewing clubs just doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid. The whole scenario is actually quite silly, but it does go to show how little actual material or fact is available to support the claims you're making.

He has every reason to believe in bounce points. Put it this way, if you were told they existed, and then played the slots after, you'd believe them.
This is the classic case between textbook teaching, and actual experience. Some think textbooks are indisputable, others think experience is.

I think using Bryan here is a cheap shot. If that's an attempt at bullying new posters into silence or agreement it sucks. He believed Betfred's games were kosher. Your words. Believed. He didn't know otherwise, and then we had the rigged fiasco. The world believed the Coelecanth was extinct for 60m years until they caught one off of East Africa. No human is infallible, nor what they create.

And you still don't get the point. We aren't accusing them of cheating/non randomness/adjusting RTP's etc.
We are speculating that the way the programs work are probably a little more complex than a simple fixed pool of returnable RN's that you are so sure (without any proof yourself) all slots aside from AWP's operate on.

 

[243 lines=daft]

What does the first sentence that Bryan posted, and the last two sentences that Wintingo posted say?

Do you believe that to be the truth?

Bryan's first sentence was 'MGS operators cannot tweak the RTPs of a game. This is hard coded in the game itself - MGS sets the RTP during the development phase and is set when the game is launched. I haven't witnessed the development of the games, but I have been to their offices on the Isle of Man.'

I absolutely accept this to be the case.

Wintigo's two sentences were 'Again, we cannot speak for other MGS casinos but playing with or without a bonus on Wintingo makes no difference what so ever to the payout. The bonus money that we give is real money and not considered or flagged as bonus money. Again, we CANNOT manipulate or change anything on the games. Neither Microgaming allows us access the games nor does our Isle of Man license allow it. '

Once again I absolutely accept that to be the case.

If you do, then I will apologize to you.

I'm looking forward to it.

It will also mean that you no longer believe the MGS slots are "riggable" or "rigged".

I have not made any accusations using these words about Microgaming, though by putting them in inverted commas you are indicating to anyone reading the thread that I did use these words.

Completely irrelevant and non-related examples involving sexual escapades in community sewing clubs just doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid. The whole scenario is actually quite silly, but it does go to show how little actual material or fact is available to support the claims you're making.

The "sexual escapades in community sewing clubs" analogy could have been better, I'll agree with you on that. But it's the best I can do given that you and Chopley are refusing to acknowledge the existence of a third position aside from options (a) fixed therefore not play or (b) not-fixed therefore play
As for the lack of stated facts on the matter of how MG arrive at their fixed RTPs, well that's exactly the reason for my grinding axe!

 

[kktmd]

I have done over 5 mio. spins on IR, TS2, TFROL, BG and BTBA. I have saved every detail of every spin in a MySql database (over 20 GB of data).

I believe that MG slots are fair, and their RTP claim is 100% correct. I do not believe MG adjusts RTP for individual players.

At the same time, I am convinced that each individual spin is NOT random. I suspect MG uses pregenerated series of random spins to control RTP and to make the slots more exiting to play.

243 lines=daft makes a good point: I have not seen MG claim that each spin is random and independant of previous spins - I'd be very interested if anyone could provide a link to this effect.

I have not had losing sessions that could not be explained by random bad luck, but I HAVE had winning sessions that were almost 6 standard deviations from the expected result (meaning very unlikely - contrary to what some posters in this thread seems to believe, standard deviations and NOT sample size is important when determining randomness - 3 or 4 spins can be enough to determine this).

We cant really look at TRTP, since we dont know how Wild Desire/Shitstorm is triggered - I suspect that Wild Desire/Shitstorm replaces a normal bonus round, but who knows.

In my book, non-random is NOT the same as unfair.