WorldWideVegas complaint

[schankwart]

During my almost seven years of online gambling this is the most disgusting and upsetting email I have ever received from any of the nasty Casinos...!

Andrew, the manager of WorldWideVegas, has yet to honor my several-month-old withdrawal, now he is also threatening me, saying he will "come for me" if I continue to attempt to get my own money from them!

My non-payment issue is referring to

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(at the WOL forum... mods, I hope this crosslink is okay?) where all information about this case is described.

I have involved a couple mediators (affiliates) into this issue already, both of which have discontinued their advertisement for WorldWideVegas. Unfortunately they were not able to get me paid. WWV claims that the mediators would have "shot me down", which is simply not true. -The mediators just did not get to pay me.....

The threat is unsettling and this Casino needs to put out of business ASAP!!! The email below is what I am referring to... Andrew sent it to me after I replied on a survey that he sent me via email:

"NO you are not a VIP with us. We just contracted to have a survey done and an old list was used. You know every single place you have tried to pull your BS story with has shot you down. You have no outstanding issue with us and if I continue to be harassed by you I am at the point where we are ready to turn this over to our legal team to go after you for attempted fraud, blackmail and slander. So keep trying to pull this crap and lets see what happens when I decide to come after you."

Now, I don’t have a particular wish for a visit from little-gangster Andrew, but if he thinks I will stop chasing my own money, he is dead wrong. Therefore I intend to keep this thread updated until I am paid my Grand by them or… whatever.

 

[suzecat]

Shankey, I understand your frustration and I do not interpret Andrew's comments as rising to the level of physical threats against you. IMHO he is telling you he is about to turn this matter over to his attorneys. This thread is a good argument FOR regulation.

 

[suzecat]

planets must be shorting out today..........

 

[mitch]

Schankwart

I do not intend to insult you, but why do casinos seem to pick on you?

I have been an online player for a long time and have never been denied a cashout. I have been locked out after big wins by the usual suspects but only after being paid.

You seem to be all over the web with casinos denying you cashouts.

Perhaps you need to consider your judgement about which casinos are worthy of your business!

You surely can't have been divorced 10 times as well, considering your gambling record you must be on track to get to your Diamond Anniversery at least. ( Lucky in love etc! )

Mitch

 

[winbig]

No disrespect either, but I see that comment as "See what happens when you're sued".

And as the above post states, you do seem to pick the worst casinos. It's great that your luck at the games are better than the casino choices

 

[Nifty29]

Bonus abusing/whoring will always create issues.

It wouldnt surprise me if the number of casinos who have had issues with Schankwart has reached saturation point..........I might have to open one just to keep things interesting.



Ho Hum.

 

[schankwart]

Yes, I will stay on them for sure!
This issue has been never ending and the Casino keeps refusing to put up straight answers. I have summarized the dispute once more:


WorldWideVegas is trying to void my winnings because I played Roulette in a promotion. Roulette indeed did not contribute to the wagering requirements, however, it nowhere states that it was not allowed to play this game at all.
The terms for the promotion were as follows:

"Play any game you like except Black Jack and if for any reason you are not a winner email us at [email protected] and we will add an additional 50% CASH BACK BONUS up to $500 FREE to your account so you can keep on playing."

After I lost my deposit I received their 50% cashback bonus....:

"If a Player receives a bonus greater than 40% they must wager the deposit plus associated bonus amount THIRTY (30) times (craps and roulette wagers are not included) to qualify for the bonus."

I then played Roulette again. This game was allowed to be played as per the term above, but did not contribute to the wagering requirement. I played my money back up, requested my withdrawal and forfeited my 50% cashback bonus as per the following term:

"Any withdrawal requests made before the bonus rules have been satisfied will result in a forfeit of the bonus amount."

Now they are claiming that it would not have been allowed to play Roulette at all, closed my account and stole all my money.


I have made my $1000 deposit via Neteller. I have also saved screenshots of all terms. As a matter of fact WorldWideVegas has even already recognized how they screwed up and brought up another excuse afterwards, that I "received a different bonus with different terms".



As far as the Roulette play goes, I played Roulette both, before and after I received the bonus.
Here are their terms regarding this:

"Play any game you like except Black Jack and if for any reason you are not a winner email us at [email protected] and we will add an additional 50% CASH BACK BONUS up to $500 FREE to your account so you can keep on playing."

After I lost my deposit I received their 50% cashback bonus:

"If a Player receives a bonus greater than 40% they must wager the deposit plus associated bonus amount THIRTY (30) times (craps and roulette wagers are not included) to qualify for the bonus."


I then played Roulette again. This game was allowed to be played as per the term above, but did not contribute to the wagering requirement. I played my money back up, requested my withdrawal and forfeited my 50% cashback bonus as per the following term:

"Any withdrawal requests made before the bonus rules have been satisfied will result in a forfeit of the bonus amount."

In their promotional terms it clearly states to play "any game but Blackjack" in order to receive (or "qualify" for) the bonus.


Anyways... WorldWideVegas will not be getting anywhere with this but down. Many have already recognized this but did not get to do anything about it. I have played fair and square but they are refusing to correct themselves and try to scare me off with nasty and threatening words.




@ Mitch... I simply DO play a lot online at numerous Online Casinos and have had my number of disputes in the past. In this case with WWV I was totally satisfied with their service at the time I played there.
There is always going to be people who claim Casino A is evil and others who praise it. At the time I played at WWV their reputation was still quite fine.
I also indeed enjoy bonuses and do not see what is wrong with that?

And Nifty.... I thought you had realized by now that your continuos personal attacks are just making a fool of yourself?


As soon as WWV is going to provide me with the term they are basing their non-payment on, I will update all threads about it and the money will be theirs. This however is never going to happen as they are basing their action on no term at all...

I am also still expecting an apology from them.


t.b.c.

 

[phynqster]

Shank,
Please clear up something for me as I read your complaint. I took it as you lost your complete deposit, than asked for your cash back bonus after the deposit was lost. You than started winning off the cash back bonus, and cashed out, but claimed you did not have to fulfill the requirements of the cash back bonus because you cashed out early. Please explain if this is the scenerio? If so I do think you were wrong, if it was something different please give more details

 

[Dirk Diggler]

From my reading of the situation schankwart fully complied with the terms and should have been paid.

Yes he recieved a cashback bonus after losing his deposit. Yes he wagered this on games that did not count towards the wagering requirements (BUT were not excluded from being played). Yes he cashed out before meeting the wagering requirements and therefore forfeited the bonus under the terms. However all of this was allowed under the terms of the offer as far as I can see.

All this boils down to is the same thing that many playtech's have tried to pull recently - that is stealing winnings because a player has played on a game that does not count towards wagering, although not excluded altogether.

P.S Just because Schankwart has had more than his fair share of problems it shouldn't mean that casinos can just steal his winnings when they don't like the way he has played. It's very easy to think 'here we go again' without looking at the facts, but if the facts equal unfair treatment from the casino then it shouldn't matter who the hell is having the problem.

 

[The Watchdog]

mmmmm

From my reading of the situation schankwart fully complied with the terms and should have been paid.

Yes he recieved a cashback bonus after losing his deposit. Yes he wagered this on games that did not count towards the wagering requirements (BUT were not excluded from being played). Yes he cashed out before meeting the wagering requirements and therefore forfeited the bonus under the terms. However all of this was allowed under the terms of the offer as far as I can see.

........

That is something casinos some times do not clarify.. some games are invalid.. not forbidded. Casinos should be careful with their terms and conditions...

Example.. I take a 100% on $50 deposit (black jack, roulette, craps, videopoker, baccarat all of them invalid towards meeting the wagering requirements) this doesn't say you can play them.. it means that those wagers will not count for the rollover.. so here is where the evil mind starts..

Lets say a Roulette Pro goes ahead.. and starts playing roulette building a balance of $5000k... however none of those wagers count.... By a miracle this guy has a flawless video poker strategy... goes to play Jacks or Better and hits some full houses and a straight flush.. .bringin his balance to 10.000...

Now .. he has not place one cent valid for his requirement.. which is only 25x bonus plus deposit.. $2500 total... he decides then to put his little son to play slots as a degenarte with 2500... if he looses.. he meets the requirement and take 7500.. if he wins.. worst for the casino.

So casinos should be specific of their terms...

 

[schankwart]

Shank,
Please clear up something for me as I read your complaint. I took it as you lost your complete deposit, than asked for your cash back bonus after the deposit was lost. You than started winning off the cash back bonus, and cashed out, but claimed you did not have to fulfill the requirements of the cash back bonus because you cashed out early. Please explain if this is the scenerio? If so I do think you were wrong, if it was something different please give more details

Yup, I have indeed won off my cashback bonus and cashed out before having finished my wagering requirements but did not break any term thereby. As per me post above, this is what it states in their terms about this scenario:
"Any withdrawal requests made before the bonus rules have been satisfied will result in a forfeit of the bonus amount."
As far as my wagering on Roulette goes, the game simply would not have contributed to the wagering requirements but was fine to be played, as DDiggler points out in his post.

WWV is well aware that I did not disobey -any- of their rules, but tried to not pay me, hoping I would duck down. Instead of having paid me and THEN lock my account they decided to simply not pay me and do the lock.

I am positive that anyone who reads my complaint will agree that I have not broken anything. If for some reason you are not convinced feel free to ask and I will try to make it understandable for you.

Fact is, I am well appreciated "VIP" player at a ton of (reputable) Online Casinos as well, which shows that the goodies appreciate my legit business with them. I do play sharp but I do not break terms. Anyone who has been around for the last few years and read my positive and negative reports about the Casino-joints out there, should be able to agree on that.

WWV, you will not get out of this before you tell me either what term I have broken or PAY!!

 

[casino employee]

If I've understood the situation in the thread correctly, I think the problem casinos have - and rightly (I think) - is that if a game is excluded from bonus wagering, then the winnings accrued from those games should also be voided. The reason is: you're playing with a bonus; the bonus has certain restrictions; if you go and play - and win - on a "restricted" game, you're profiting at the casino's expense with a bonus that was not supposed to have been played there in the first place.

By switching then to "approved" games to fulfill the wagering requirements, you're simply fulfilling wagers using an inflated balance bulked up from wins that were obtained with a bonus on restricted games. In the eyes of many online casinos that's a disadvantage to them.

Not all casinos will void your winnings, but I do understand those that would.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

If I've understood the situation in the thread correctly, I think the problem casinos have - and rightly (I think) - is that if a game is excluded from bonus wagering, then the winnings accrued from those games should also be voided. The reason is: you're playing with a bonus; the bonus has certain restrictions; if you go and play - and win - on a "restricted" game, you're profiting at the casino's expense with a bonus that was not supposed to have been played there in the first place.

By switching then to "approved" games to fulfill the wagering requirements, you're simply fulfilling wagers using an inflated balance bulked up from wins that were obtained with a bonus on restricted games. In the eyes of many online casinos that's a disadvantage to them.

Not all casinos will void your winnings, but I do understand those that would.

I'm sorry but that's nonsense. If the terms don't expressley forbid playing on the games that don't count towards the wagering requirements then the player has done nothing wrong.

The casinos can write whatever T&Cs they like and can easily put in a term excluding play on whatever games they wish. It's their repsonsibilty to make sure they have covered eveything they don't want the player to do, if they haven't then it's their own fault.

Any casinos that steals winnings because of this reason when they haven't forbid it is rogue - simple as that.

 

[casino employee]

I don't disagree that casinos should be more explicit in their T&C's but by the same token, a player who goes and plays on a restricted game with a bonus is also taking a risk by not contacting the casino first to find out if there will be a problem.

It's like taking the risk quietly in order to play dumb now and then to make a scene later that the player "didn't know"... in many cases it's deliberate ignorance.

 

[winbig]

I don't disagree that casinos should be more explicit in their T&C's but by the same token, a player who goes and plays on a restricted game with a bonus is also taking a risk by not contacting the casino first to find out if there will be a problem.

It's like taking the risk quietly in order to play dumb now and then to make a scene later that the player "didn't know"... in many cases it's deliberate ignorance.

The player was told explicitly via the T&C that they could PLAY the games, but any wagers wouldn't count towards the WR.

How's that "playing dumb" and claiming ignorance when the casino wants to change the terms after the fact?

 

[vinylweatherman]

BS

Utter BS - Roulette has a high(ish) house edge, and it is more likely that the player will lose some of the bonus rather than win an "inflated amount". An individual player might win this way, but the adoption of this strategy by the general player pool will work in the favour of the house. The only exception would be where a restricted game had a small player edge, and was there for loyal players to play with their own money.
Terms need to mean what they say, and say what they mean. Saying "wagering will not contribute to meeting WR", means something different from "play on these games is not permitted till the WR for the bonus has been completed".

The casino wrote overly complicated rules, got it slightly wrong, and got turned over by a sharp player. If the rules were simpler, and said what they meant, this would not happen. They should pay and then lock, this is the correct procedure for dealing with an over clever player who has not actually breached the T & C. The whole point of accepting a bonus is that a player feels it improves their chances of winning. This case is worse, as this was a bonus only given if the player lost all of their own money first, and was already down twice the amount of the bonus. Since when does a player lose their entire deposit to get a 50% cashback do this as part of bonus hunting. This offer gives them a chance to win back some of their losses, not mechanically extract a bonus by playing low variance and low house edge games.

 

[phynqster]

After reading this again, I do not think the problem is the excluded games, I think it is about the bonus requriments of the cash back bonus. The money won here was from the casinos money Shank put up no money on this win.9He had all ready lost it). So he builds a balance with the casinos bonus money , than cashes out before fullfilling the terms of the bonus, than says because he cashed out early, he does not have to adhere to the rules. What is the difference here if a casino says you need to make 30x playthrough on the bonus, and you hit big before making playthrough, so you cash out and say go ahead and remove the bonus?. Once you accept bonus money you have to follow the rules.

 

[The Watchdog]

Wrong

If you play a bonus, make money out of it and you haven't played the valid games no "smart casino" will let you forefit the bonus...

As a matter of fact, I have never seen a casino that allows to forefit bonuses.

If you accept a bonus with a 30x rollover you can not use that bonus to play roulette, win a lot of money and then forefit the bonus... Don't you think everyone will do that??

Regarding invalid games casinos should be clear if they want them invalid or forbiddedn.. Invalid is understood that wageres placed in those games will not count. At no point these people said that if you played X game your bonus and winnings will be voided.

Forbidden, Invalid, Forbidden, Invalid ... its not Nuclear phisics...

I believe that the 300% bonus at golden palace very clearly informs not to play certain games... that is how it should be done. If its not goldenpalace's its another one.

The Casino is responsible of making all their rules clear as water.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

After reading this again, I do not think the problem is the excluded games, I think it is about the bonus requriments of the cash back bonus. The money won here was from the casinos money Shank put up no money on this win.9He had all ready lost it). So he builds a balance with the casinos bonus money , than cashes out before fullfilling the terms of the bonus, than says because he cashed out early, he does not have to adhere to the rules. What is the difference here if a casino says you need to make 30x playthrough on the bonus, and you hit big before making playthrough, so you cash out and say go ahead and remove the bonus?. Once you accept bonus money you have to follow the rules.

Yes, could well be that. However the terms clearly stated that an early withdrawal would result in the forfeit of the bonus - NOT winnings as well. Therefore they have no right confiscating the winnings.

 

[phynqster]

Sorry, but in my eyes if you forefit a bonus than any play from that bonus would also be forefitted. This was a no deposit bonus, Shank did not use any of his money. These means all you have to do with a no deposit bonus is make one bet for the full amount of the bonus, if you win cash out and say remove the bonus I don't want it (forefit) and just cash out the win, with out ever making playthru.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

No Ted, that's only the case if the terms state it. It's what the terms and conditions state that matters, not what you think is right or wrong.

I really can't even think why you think that should be automatically the case anyway. Many casinos for years allowed you to withdraw your winnings early and forfeit the bonus. I reckon they probably saw it as a good way to get some bonus money back, which is usually mathematically correct.

Both ALL Boss Media and ezecash (Starluck etc) casinos had this in place for years. That's well over 50 casinos for starters, so how you can expect players to think that it's the norm to have their winnings stolen when the terms don't state it is beyond me.

All players ask is that the casino's stand by their terms and conditions, is that too much to ask?

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Also (for clarification purposes) this wasn't a no deposit bonus, it was a cashback bonus meaning shankwart had already lost a lot in the first place.

EDIT: This makes no difference anyway really - so god know's why I brought it up

 

[schankwart]

My apologies for not having posted here in a couple days. Timely restrictions did not allow me to spend much time online.

I have to say that I very much agree to what Dirk Diggler says in this thread. CasinoEmployee, how am I supposed to "play dumb" when WWV is putting up terms retroactively? There was no "questionable" rule anywhere in their terms and I have not broken one either. Are you saying that before having made my deposit I should have asked the Casino for confirmation whether all of their terms are still valid...? mhhh

The payment they owe me is more than clear and I will insist on my money until they have paid me. A decreasing number of players should be enough of a warning for them!

WWV, I am hoping that you will be contacting me about this soon so we can get this matter resolved. This payment is due!


On a sidenote, WorldWideVegas have now updated their website with the term they brought up retroactively. I however have saved screenshots of the original terms I played under.

 

[The Dude]

Semi-admin note

Just jumping in here after my Montreal trip.

My dealings with Schanky go way back, and it's gotten to the point that I won't deal with his PAB's anymore. I've learned that his problems are never simply one-sided, and that the casino has an entirely different story. Many of these stories are backed up with chat sessions and emails, etc. I'm a bit surprised Schankwart is having a go at this casino with such gusto in this forum with this sort of history.

So to be fair to the casino in question, I'm toning the title of the thread down a bit. The "threat" of the email (as I read it) is a legal threat. "we're going to get you (legally)" sort of thing. I'm asking the casino for comment to get their side of the story.

 

[The Dude]

Sorry Schank, but after rereading this thread, I'm not sure how much I can trust you right now:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/schankwart-vs-cirrus-casino.7467/

It seems like you've gotten yourself in the same sort of situation. Perhaps you should be posting this stuff elsewhere - and not here.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

To be fair I don't see what that's got to do with this situation. That boiled down to cirrus claiming they had informed the player via live chat that he wasn't liable for certain promotions where as the player claimed to have no recollection of the chat.

This seems to be a fairly straight forward case of the casino claiming 'bonus abuse' and confiscating the players winnings when they didn't like the way they played, even though the terms and conditions had been followed.

I'd be very interested to see if they respond, and be very surprised if that turned out not to be the case.

 

[schankwart]

Bryan, I have been aware that you are not interested in my business anymore but would appreciate if you could comment about my postings in a objective way.

If you believe my claim with WWV is invalid then there is nothing I can do. It deeply disappoints me but this is your forum. I have posted all facts and if you tell me what term I have broken, I will be doomed right away!
Maybe the "stuff" I posted has not always been easy to get through but pretty much all of my disputes got eventually straightened out by the questionable Casinos.
I have posted about good and evil Casinos a lot over the last years and the disputes that I have had were always legit. Search for my name (in this forum) and I think you could not disagree.

There is a huge number of Online Casinos that have appreciated my business with them for years while other Casinos do of course hate me for my sharpness. Any legit Casino does not care about this though and I am a "VIP player" at quite a number of highly reputable and outstanding Casinos.

As far as the dispute with Cirrus goes, it has been never ending and you do not have all information as the whole discussion continued elsewhere after you had locked the thread. I am not going to start a discussion about this with you though anymore. You could as well have posted about dozens of other threads or postings of mine, which are a LOT more obvious and understandable.

Apart from that horrible story I do not see where this or any other issue has much to do with "believing"? I have always clearly posted all facts and am usually able to back them up with screenshots etc. (as you noticed yourself).

If a Casino does not obey their own terms, I post it here (and elsewhere).

If a Casino does a great job... I post about it here (and elsewhere) as well.

Basically I am asking you to not judge me by the number of disputes but rather by their rightfulness! I do not always play at 100%-recommended Casinos and give some smaller ones a try as well. -With WorldWideVegas this decision simply turned out to be no good for me in the end.

 

[The Dude]

Basically I am asking you to not judge me by the number of disputes but rather by their rightfulness! I do not always play at 100%-recommended Casinos and give some smaller ones a try as well. -With WorldWideVegas this decision simply turned out to be no good for me in the end.

Sorry - I'm not judging you by the incredible amount of disputes that you generate. I'm really not judging you at all. The thing is, I'm not sure that this is the best forum for you to pursue this since the last major problem you had it seemed you were being less than honest. That's why I don't deal with your complaints anymore.

As for Cirrus, I had everything I needed to figure out what was up. And if I remember correctly, other people who tried to help you out dropped you like a ton of bricks when they found out you were not being upfront with them.

To be fair I don't see what that's got to do with this situation. That boiled down to cirrus claiming they had informed the player via live chat that he wasn't liable for certain promotions where as the player claimed to have no recollection of the chat.

It has everything to do with this. How can you not have a recollections of your chat sessions? If a player BS's me with one claim, why should I spend time on another?

But to be fair, I'll give the casino a chance to respond and we can go from there.

 

[schankwart]

..."dishonest"... That is your opinion, Bryan. Why also not mention all the right and fine cases of mine, that you should be aware of as well?

I however do appreciate that you seem interested in finding out the TRUTH behind this dispute!

 

[The Dude]

...Why also not mention all the right and fine cases of mine, that you should be aware of as well?

I think all of your cases suck! But I think you bought me a CD or DVD once. Fuckin' A! So it's cool.

Besides that, here's the response from the operator:

Here are the details of the claim and why it was declined: The player abused our bonus program not once, not twice but several times. His first attempt at bonus abuse was in January of 2005. He was repeatedly warned to stop utilizing bonus money to play roulette and to stop attempting to cash out unearned bonus money. In every case were he was warned his payout request was approved and paid. During this period he made ~7k in deposits and had cash outs approved for ~12k. The first time he abused the bonus rules it was within my power to deny his payout.

I discussed the issue with him and he assured me it was an honest mistake and would not happen again. Several times after this he repeated his scam and we gave him latitude. After the last time I gave him his final warning that if he did it again he would be banned from the casino. He played normally several times after this final warning before attempting his scam again. On the final request even though he had lost his deposit and then attempted to use bonus money to play roulette and cash out we still refunded his final deposit and disabled his account. I could have kept the deposit and we were stung for over ~5k from this guy over a few months however to ensure that the casino maintain our reputation we refunded his final deposit before banning him from all of our websites.

Well, did they warn you to not play roulette? Or did you forget that they told you...like the Cirrus chat sessions

 

[schankwart]

Oh boy... Please everybody hold your breath as this has taken mine! They keep coming up with new stuff again and again. Each time they are being contacted, a new excuse is coming up.
Why do you believe the Casinos but do not believe me? This Casino has set up a perfect trap, threatening me with evil consequences if I continue to take this discussion to public. So what am I supposed to do now? Tell you that I have never been warned that Roulette would void any play? Tell you that they have just updated their webpage with the questionable term not too long ago? Tell you that I was not the only one who got >< creamed by them? Why do you actually believe their threat is referring to legal steps? For me their words sound like much more than that!
I have saved ALL logs but this is starting to really scare me now. In my anger and frustration I have just sent an email to their manager again myself, hoping for an answer on my question. Jesus, what a nightmare!!

And yeah, a few years ago I bought Bryan a Metallica collection for him to rock on. I enjoy their tunes myself and am sure he did as well.

 

[The Dude]

From the casino:

We have NEVER allowed in our entire history Bonus play on roulette or craps. As I explained before in both of those games it is possible to make zero sum wagers to meet any wager requirement and then cash out the bonus money without having taken any risk. In the case of this player, not only was he 100% aware that these two games were excluded from bonus wagering he had been warned several times before he was finally banned from our casino.

and

I not only exchanged emails with him regarding the issue but he called in several times and I spoke to him on the phone. This issue was clear 100% to everyone involved and we were going to allow him to continue wagering with us and exclude him from our bonus program which I have the ability to click a button and the player is prevented from receiving bonuses, and the player begged me to allow him bonuses and stated he would never do what he did again and claimed he didnt know the rules.

Why does this sound so familiar?

It seems as though they valued you as a player, but only up to a point. Should I request copies of the emails?

 

[schankwart]

This is so SICK! -Now I am even supposed to have talked to them!?! Bryan, in my own and hopefully your interest, PLEASE DO request copies of the emails they sent and PLEASE also DO get logs of the phonecalls "we have had"! This is now absolutely out of dimensions!! I almost can not believe what is happening here anymore. I am sure this Casino is monitoring this forum! -Andrew or whoever...

They have indeed never allow Roulette for the wagering requirements but by the time I played with them it was NEVER stated that this game would not contribute to the wagering requirements! Also, what is the Casino referring to when they mention "all of their Casinos across their group"? WWV has always claimed they were independent.

 

[The Dude]

I have a copy of their help desk tickets - the correspondence between you and the casino support. It's pretty damning.

From last April 2005
We have reviewed the issue and the redemption was correctly declined because not only did you not meet the wagering requirements you used the bonus money to play ROULETTE. It is 100% clear in our rules that bonus money can not be used to play CRAPS or ROULETTE. Any wagers on CRAPS or ROULETTE using bonus money are null and void and if bonus money is used to play these games the bonus funds will be removed from the account as well as all results of wagers made on these games using bonus money.
If a Player receives a bonus greater than 40% they must wager the deposit plus associated bonus amount THIRTY (30) times (craps and roulette wagers are not included) to qualify for the bonus and the bonus is not for use playing these games.

On past redemptions we did not enforced this part of the rule giving you the benefit of the doubt that you understood the restrictions, however that does not make the rule invalid. You are subject to all the rules and regulations at WorldwideVegas and having been warned that any continued attempt to abuse our bonus system or play games with bonus money that are not within the rules we would take the action we have.

Then you said:

Hello Patrick,

so what is this promotion good for then Play any game you like except Black Jack and if for any reason you are not a winner email us at [email protected] and we will add an additional 50 CASH BACK BONUS up to $500 FREE to your account so you can keep on playing. It nowhere mentions that this one needs to have wagered his deposit 30* in order to be eligible for a claim of this cashback bonus.
Obviously you are not honoring your promotions anymore, even when played under all terms, and I sure enough do not accept any such treatment.

They came back with:

The promotion you are referring to is not the promotion in question. The cash back promotion you are referring to was a 50% cash back not a $50 Cash back promotion. The deposit, bonus and resulting play that you are disputing was a standard deposit and our regular bonus. You deposited $1,000 and lost it, you then took the $500 bonus you received and played roulette making the play null and void. This was not the first time you have done this but it is the last as we have decided to close this account. Clearly you do not grasp that there are rules to be followed and 99.9% of our members have no problem at all following these same rules that you seem to violate every time you come in.

I have reviewed your play and in April the only game you played is roulette. Bonus money is not available for Roulette or craps. If you play Blackjack or slots with your deposit and bonus there is no problem. If you play Blackjack or slots and loose your deposit then you will have earned your bonus and can play, win and cash out. When you play craps or roulette you cannot earn the bonus and when you loose your deposit you do not earn the bonus.

Regards
Patrick
Accounting

And then you said:

I nowhere states that Roulette wagers do disqualify for a bonus. It only states that they do not contribute to the wagering requirements.
The cashback bonus additionally was available during my time of play and I will provide you with the proof for that if we still need to go that far. The bonus got credited into my account and now you are not honoring it anymore by trying to apply a rule to it that stands in no relation to what happened.
I have forfeited my bonusamount and played by all rules, just as I stated before.
I am still hoping for a fair solution here so you can change your rules accordingly and will never hear back from me anymore anywhere.
This solution would be in the best interest of you as well as me, considering the difficulties and pain that these disputes unfortunately bring along for all.
As a gesture of fairness I would also accept it if you return the funds back into my Casino account so I can wager them out.
Please let us avoid this horrible scenario still!

And they came back with:


The rules says; "(craps and roulette wagers are not included) to qualify for the bonus." which means that if you only play craps or roulette there is no way you can qualify for the bonus. In addition you were playing on April 2nd and the Cashback Promo started on April 15th as posted on the site, ref page

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

where it states the time frame;

From now, April 15th, through Tuesday, April 19th, 11:59PM Eastern.

This indicates that it was not in effect at the time you were playing.

If you have information that indicates the promo was in effect prior to that period then please present it and we will give you the Cashback bonus.

So what the hell? Should I post the remainder that lead up to this? Or am I wasting my time?

 

[The Dude]

By the way, why did you wait a full year to start posting this over here? Just curious.

 

[The Dude]

Here is a message from you that proceeds the ones just posted::

From you:

Hello Jennifer,

could you please explain what this 50 cashback bonus is supposed to be good for then? If I lose, I lose, if I win, I lose as well...??
I of course have lost my deposit and then received the bonus that I gained my winnings from. The same exact thing was totally fine with you before but apparently there seems to be something wrong now.
If you want to change rules then please honor this withdrawal and you will never hear from me again!
I have learned to trust your Casino very well but this now shocks me deeply.
I will try me best to resolve this issue easily and peacefully but will be forced to involve mediator, affiliates and publicity into this matter in case it turns out ugly.
As I said the same exact thing was fine previously and all withdrawals got honored by your Casino. When there was a discepancy you reversed my withdrawal and we have been able to straighten it out fairly and I very much hope we will be able to do this again this time.


So what the hell, Shankwart - are they making this up??

 

[mitch]

Schankwart

If the evidence posted by the Meister is accurate then I am disappointed in you and your attempted use of this forum and Bryans reputation in trying to further your illegitimate claims against this casino and at the same time trying to damage this casinos reputation in other players minds.

Can't you see how damaging this is for the ongoing influence of this forum and Bryans attempts to get justice in other cases where it is deserved. You are harming other player/members.

I don't mind your bonus hunting, perfectly legitimate IMO. This behaviour however is indefensible and I am sorry mate unless you come up with a clear apology and promise not to use the forum in this way in the future you should be banned. (You will still have your other forums as compensation)

Mitch

 

[schankwart]

"Damning"... "Hell"... Those are evil words! NO Bryan, you are not wasting your time!

These chats indeed took place AFTER I made my questionable withdrawal that they did not honor! This whole correspondence happened AFTER I complained about my non-payment and I was not warned by them at any time before, as WWV is trying to claim.
-God, I am just so glad they did not go as far to make up a chat.....!

What about the "phonecalls" though? Please ask them to provide those to you as well! I have not talked to this Casino a single time ever since I was born but maybe they have communicated with a shadow of mine!


So... Please tell me what term I have broken that would void my winnings?

Bryan, I will supply you with the screenshots pronto that stated that Roulette does not count for wagers. I "unfortunately" can not provide you with a screenshot though that states that Roulette would void any winnings, as they are claiming in their chat. ahem


For now it is time to sleep though.

Good night.

 

[schankwart]

Schankwart

If the evidence posted by the Meister is accurate then I am disappointed in you and your attempted use of this forum and Bryans reputation in trying to further your illegitimate claims against this casino and at the same time trying to damage this casinos reputation in other players minds.

Can't you see how damaging this is for the ongoing influence of this forum and Bryans attempts to get justice in other cases where it is deserved. You are harming other player/members.

I don't mind your bonus hunting, perfectly legitimate IMO. This behaviour however is indefensible and I am sorry mate unless you come up with a clear apology and promise not to use the forum in this way in the future you should be banned. (You will still have your other forums as compensation)

Mitch

Hello Mitch,
had these chats indeed taken place before I made the deposit that I gained my winnings from, then I would be busted for real!
These chats however took place after the withdrawal did not get honored by them and I started to complain.

-This is making a BIG difference!



Edit: I need to address one more statement before finally heading to bed:

As I said the same exact thing was fine previously and all withdrawals got honored by your Casino. When there was a discepancy you reversed my withdrawal and we have been able to straighten it out fairly and I very much hope we will be able to do this again this time.

The "discrepancy" that I was referring to came up because I had once miscalculated my fulfilled wagers and accidently cashed out before having reached the wagering requirements of a previous deposit and bonus.
After I contacted th Casino they reversed the balance into my account and this issue was closed nicely this time.
They also allowed me to forfeit my bonus on previous occasions but paid me my winnings, just as per their terms. After I got lucky again however they refused to pay and all details about this issue are explained in this thread.

They simply did not want to pay me anymore as I had "won too much", in their opinion.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Er, I still don't see how he's broken their terms and conditions.

Here are their promotional terms and conditions which have been the same since the 12th June 2005 according to their website:

i. When receiving bonuses 40% or less, a player must wager the deposit plus associated bonus amount TWENTY (20) times, to qualify for the bonus.

ii. For bonuses greater than 40% they must wager the deposit plus associated bonus amount THIRTY (30) times (craps and roulette wagers are not included) to qualify for the bonus.

THEY have interpreted the 'craps and roulette wagers are not included' to mean any play on it results in confiscation of winnings, which it certainly DOES NOT.

It is the exact same problem as people have been having with many Playtech's where winnings were confiscated for playing games that did not count towards the wagering requirement, though not totally excluded. Pretty much everyone agreed it was totally wrong for them to do it.

Yes, Schankwart goes completely off topic with his emails and generally talks a load of nonsense - but it doesn't hide the fact that their terms and conditions do not allow them to confiscate his winnings for the way he played.

 

[mitch]

Dirk

You appear to be a savvy player and if what you post about your casino behavior is accurate and you don't lose your control at any time, you should be ahead with your internet play overall.

You are are only doing this however, on the back of Casino bonuses (No other way to win unless you are constantly lucky).

Why do you therefore constantly support dodgy players who are pushing the boundarys of casinos generosity?

The activities of players like Schankwart can only cause casinos to tighten up or remove their bonuses and that will be then the end of your profits.

You happy with that?

Perhaps you are not the winning player you portray yourself to be and this is some sort of revenge posting.

Mitch

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Oh believe me, I lose more often than not

My support isn't for any 'dodgy' player, it's just for ANY player that I feel has been wrongly treated by a casino.

You wont get me backing Schankwart or anyone else if I they've not complied with the terms and conditions of the offer, or commited fraudulant behaviour of any kind.

I just plain and simply believe that any player that has complied with the terms and conditions should be paid - simple as. I couldn't care less if bonuses stopped if it means that casinos actually payout their players and the complaints stop.

I've not been paid a few times by casinos for no good reason and I tell you it's not a nice feeling.

 

[The Dude]

...
The "discrepancy" that I was referring to came up because I had once miscalculated my fulfilled wagers and accidently cashed out before having reached the wagering requirements of a previous deposit and bonus.
After I contacted th Casino they reversed the balance into my account and this issue was closed nicely this time.
They also allowed me to forfeit my bonus on previous occasions but paid me my winnings, just as per their terms. After I got lucky again however they refused to pay and all details about this issue are explained in this thread.

They simply did not want to pay me anymore as I had "won too much", in their opinion.

This response of yours was to this message from Jennifer



I personally notified you on more than one occasion that if you continued to request redemptions of bonus money without following the rules that we would have to take action. You assured me you would meet bonus rules on future deposits and play and I approved your previous payouts. Now that you continue to attempt to abuse the bonus program you leave us with no choice but to decline the most recent payout request of funds as a result of unearned bonus money. There is nothing more I can do for you at this time as management has elected to close your account and reserves the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. It just happens in your case it is because of your repeated attempts to abuse our bonus program.

Regards,
Jennifer
Accounting

You were told in January 2005 that Roulette doesn't count. Here is an email they sent you:

I am sorry to inform you that since you didn't play through your deposit
according to our bonus rules you did not qualify for your payout. If
you would like to claim bonuses please make sure and follow our bonus
rules. Roulette wagers do not qualify to be used to play roulette and
though you may use your deposit to play roulette those wagers do not
count towards the wager requirement. In this case you had lost your
deposit without meeting the wager requirement because you played
roulette. The DCEG system is currently unable to determine the
difference between wagers made on roulette and other games and it
activated your bonus even though you did not qualify for it. This is a
flaw in the system and we have either the option of manually qualifying
all bonuses or retroactively removing unqualified bonuses. We always
error in the favor our members and as such most members follow the bonus
rules so we let the system automatically qualify all bonuses and we
remove all play on unqualified bonuses after the fact. DCEG is working
on this issue and soon it will be automatic and we wont have the problem
of unqualified bonuses being activated. In the future please make sure
you have adhered to all our bonus rules before requesting any payout.

They claim that you wrote back to them stating you were unaware of the rules and thought that since the bonus was activated you had earned it and you then wagered some more before cashing out. You claimed you read all of their rules and didn't see where you couldn't play roulette. After going back and forth they told you they'd give you the benefit of the doubt and they paid you.

Later you said, I did the exact same thing previously and all withdrawls got honored." Yeah, duh. They had let you slide before, but enough was enough.

Looking at the series of messages between you and the casino, it seems quite obvious that they had tired of your non-compliance with their rules.

And you didn't answer my question: why have you waited over a year to bring this here?

 

[Nifty29]

Yes!

At last BOTH sides of the story have been told.

If this isnt the classic example of why we all now have to play bonuses through 30x+ , then I dont know what is.

You were warned, but you did it again. Count yourself lucky they ever paid you!

Stop wasting forum space that could be used for legitimate player problems.

 

[sirius]

This response of yours was to this message from Jennifer



I personally notified you on more than one occasion that if you continued to request redemptions of bonus money without following the rules that we would have to take action. You assured me you would meet bonus rules on future deposits and play and I approved your previous payouts. Now that you continue to attempt to abuse the bonus program you leave us with no choice but to decline the most recent payout request of funds as a result of unearned bonus money. There is nothing more I can do for you at this time as management has elected to close your account and reserves the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. It just happens in your case it is because of your repeated attempts to abuse our bonus program.

Regards,
Jennifer
Accounting

You were told in January 2005 that Roulette doesn't count. Here is an email they sent you:

I am sorry to inform you that since you didn't play through your deposit
according to our bonus rules you did not qualify for your payout. If
you would like to claim bonuses please make sure and follow our bonus
rules. Roulette wagers do not qualify to be used to play roulette and
though you may use your deposit to play roulette those wagers do not
count towards the wager requirement. In this case you had lost your
deposit without meeting the wager requirement because you played
roulette. The DCEG system is currently unable to determine the
difference between wagers made on roulette and other games and it
activated your bonus even though you did not qualify for it. This is a
flaw in the system and we have either the option of manually qualifying
all bonuses or retroactively removing unqualified bonuses. We always
error in the favor our members and as such most members follow the bonus
rules so we let the system automatically qualify all bonuses and we
remove all play on unqualified bonuses after the fact. DCEG is working
on this issue and soon it will be automatic and we wont have the problem
of unqualified bonuses being activated. In the future please make sure
you have adhered to all our bonus rules before requesting any payout.

They claim that you wrote back to them stating you were unaware of the rules and thought that since the bonus was activated you had earned it and you then wagered some more before cashing out. You claimed you read all of their rules and didn't see where you couldn't play roulette. After going back and forth they told you they'd give you the benefit of the doubt and they paid you.

Later you said, I did the exact same thing previously and all withdrawls got honored." Yeah, duh. They had let you slide before, but enough was enough.

Looking at the series of messages between you and the casino, it seems quite obvious that they had tired of your non-compliance with their rules.

And you didn't answer my question: why have you waited over a year to bring this here?

He did nothing wrong in playing roulette. Casinomeister, they didn't say he couldn't play roulette. The play just doesn't count towards the requirements (I've highlighted in red the part that shows this from their response). I think previously he said he mistakenly didn't wager enough on the games that counted before withdrawing and so they reversed the withdrawel and let him continue wagering.

 

[phynqster]

I read that , that he could bet on roulette and craps on his deposit, but not on bonus funds. Remember his discrepincy came from taking a cashback bonus after losing his deposit. Making a couple of bets on roulette and hitting, than cashing out before playing the playthrough, claiming that since he cashed out early he gives up the bonus, but keeps all of the money won from it. Sounds like he thought they were offering a sticky bonus with no playthrough, because of his VIP play.

 

[schankwart]

Okay Bryan, I will be straight up honest with you now as you have asked me for the explanation why I did not get this matter to your forum any earlier. I was actually going to post this last night but forgot to do so.

You have been fooled with goofed correspondence before (Cirrus). Though I can not really blame you for that, it has stolen a lot of my faith and I was very anxious that the same would happen with WWV again.
They are also claiming that "I would have been warned before that Roulette would void my winnings", and even that they "would have talked to me on the phone about this (a multiple times)"!
-This is all complete c*** but hard for me to prove. I am just glad that there has not popped up anything (yet) that they manually "put into my mouth".

I am also aware of a dispute with WWV that you have ruled against two other players in the past, though I am positive that those players did not do anything wrong and should have been paid. I basically did not want to take the risk to bring this complex dispute here but the scary threats left me no choice but to warn other players in this well-frequented gambling forum and eventually try to find a solution with my case.
I do not think Bryan is doing a bad job as a watchdog but he should not take for granted what is easily to be faked. I -am- an honest person but Bryan does not believe me anymore. He has however been very good in the past for me already, which I do not forget about either. I just hope that he allows himself a bit more time in the future before hammering me with bad words.
I will try my best possible that he does not need to use those anymore.
-After all noone is perfect however and nor am I.

I would also like to take this opportunity to say that English is not my first language, though I am very familiar with it. I am sometimes putting sentences in an emotion that they are not intended to have, which is why apparently some of my statments might sound a bit odd. If there is anything unclear I am always trying to explain better though.


Back to the payment issue now:
What rule of them did I not obey when Roulette indeed does not count for wagers but does not void any winnings? As posted above I have canceled my bonus a few times before and withdrew my winnings only. -They have NEVER told me that this would not be allowed and nor is it stated in anywhere in their terms.


I also think "Niftys" posts are pretty funny. He is poping into this (and a few other forums every once) when he sees a post of mine, so he can bash it. Other than that she does not do anything and I would suggest her to return her highly valuable comments to the ezboard she is coming from.


WorldWideVegas, I am hoping that this will be resolved soon...

 

[schankwart]

I read that , that he could bet on roulette and craps on his deposit, but not on bonus funds. Remember his discrepincy came from taking a cashback bonus after losing his deposit. Making a couple of bets on roulette and hitting, than cashing out before playing the playthrough, claiming that since he cashed out early he gives up the bonus, but keeps all of the money won from it. Sounds like he thought they were offering a sticky bonus with no playthrough, because of his VIP play.

This is what it stated in order to be eligible to claim their cashback bonus:

******CASH BACK NOW******
WorldwideVegas is bringing back the CASH BACK program. If you play today and for any reason are not a winner just email [email protected] and we will add an additional 50% CASH BACK BONUS, up to $500 FREE, to your account. You can't beat the CASH BACK program because its the only time you win free cash if you lose.

This promotion excludes Black Jack players. If you play Black Jack our Black Jack game already pays out over 99% so this game does not qualify for our CASH BACK program.

HERE ARE THE DETAILS:
When:
From now, April 15th, through Tuesday, April 19th, 11:59PM Eastern.

How:
To get your 50% CASH BACK BONUS up to $500 FREE -
Just log in, make a deposit, and receive your regular bonus which is also up to $500 FREE automatically added to your account. Play any game you like except Black Jack and if for any reason you are not a winner email us at [email protected] and we will add an additional 50% CASH BACK BONUS up to $500 FREE to your account so you can keep on playing.


This is what it states about the bonus:

2.) Any withdrawal requests made before the bonus rules have been satisfied will result in a forfeit of the bonus amount. All play utilizing bonus money not earned is null and void. The account will be reconciled only through the requested payout and the bonus money will be removed from the payout request.

 

[phynqster]

All play utilizing bonus money not earned is null and void.

How do you understand that line. I see it as since you did not make playthrough on your bonus money all play (winnings) are null and void. You are given bonus money on the stipulation that you make a playthrough. No playthrough no bonus funds, they go hand and hand.
As for waiting a year to post here, why did you also take a year at WOL to post, and when your post got no where there you posted here. Could you please explain what WOL has against you? Also for the record, what I remember from the Cirrus claim I thought it was 50/50 , and you would not budge. But if you remember at the same time you did almost the same thing to me, but dropped the accusations when I showed you the e-mail that you had signed that you agreed to playing without the bonus, but still took the bonus. So remember, when Bryan talks about you conveintlly forgeting certain details, he is not off the mark.

 

[schankwart]

Phynqster, fistly please let me know who you are and what Casino you worked for before??
I have posted on WOL about the WWV issue for the first time last August. Over the couple months before that time I was trying to get this matter resolved discretely with the Casino.

All play utilizing bonus money not earned is null and void.

Why have I "not earned" my bonus when I lost my complete deposit on Roulette? I understand this term as if they will deny any winnings if I, for instance, had received the bonus after having lost my deposit playing Blackjack. WWV have now updated their webpage with the following term, which would indeed cancel my winnings as well:

2. Any withdrawal request made prior to having met wagering requirements will;

a. Result in automatic loss of any unqualified bonus in the account, and

b.Withdrawal requests for winnings resulting from bonus money wagers before meeting these requirements will be declined, and


By the time I played this term was only up in their minds though.