WHY I TRIED TO PAY FOR AN AUDIT!!! I THINK EVEN 3DICE WILL VOUCH FOR ME???

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
A few selected affiliates et al just claim software is fair and for we,the players to prove it is not. Then you call their bluff and more rhetoric. Basically I am to accept their word and/or shut up and not play! (do not worry about newbies or others who may not read this forum).....shame on the selected culprits and I will continue at my expense and time to seek a non paradoxical answer (there are other auditors available and others now in higher ranks who may want some answers). Here is an excerpt from Tennessean.Com in October 2007 that was the icing on the cake that software (similiar to gaming software) can be flawed (possibly with intent or without intent.) I hold no hard feelings against any affiliates or players who question my motives or tactics to obtain the truth. Enzo, I wish you could share some thoughts but I understand your situation and I appreciate the respect you have shown me as you and I both know this is about BJ software in the industry as a whole. In fact we (really Enzo) are now going to experiment with some BJ software ideas together (Kudos). I just happened to have access to the log files at Enzo's casino at the time I commissioned an audit.

"Board members said they wanted to wait until auditors had completed their reports on a computer coding error that kept certain numbers from being drawn before deciding whether to return to the system in which balls pop up with the winning numbers.

Several members noted they were hesitant to change because lottery sales are up in both games and because switching back to the old system would cost perhaps $5 million more because of higher television broadcasting costs.

The dramatically escalating cost convinced the board to switch to computers to pick the winning numbers. The change was made July 28, but an error in the systems computer code kept the computers from drawing any numbers that had repeating digits, such as 1-1-4 or 5-5-5-5. The error was discovered Aug. 20, and the public was informed the next day.

The boards audit committee met this morning to hear reports from the auditors who have been looking into the August glitch.

An auditor from KPMG Canada reported that the firms preliminary work found no problems with the system. The firm was hired to determine whether the computers now were operating properly. KPMG also will be comparing the error-plagued code with the corrected code.

The boards internal auditor, Khristie Stoecklein, gave the audit committee a report on how the error occurred based on interviews with lottery staff and employees of SmartPlay International, the company that sold the lottery the computers, and another firm that was hired to verify the computer code didnt have any errors. Stoecklein said she found nothing to indicate fraud.

The state Comptrollers Office also is looking into the glitch and will be looking at whether fraud could be a factor, as well as other issues"
.
 
I'd stay on it Nash, but the emotions will shear it if not careful. Also, hard to read because it rolls from the person who helped you into a lotto-like thing.

I'd suggest a closed thread for a couple of days - that you remain a member here to expose what you are on to - and that no other memebrs, regardless of status, goad you.

I believe you 100% that NO blackjack game online can be the same as a deck, or 60 decks, and it is time for the industry and their self-appointed apologists to answer, truthfully, in a way that any player can understand WHY.


It's time for the casinos to prove to us; not their ploppets, affiliates, and mathatiscians.

You have raised a question for the ages and I challenge as well.

For the casual or interested reader, please note that 3Dice - to the best of my knowledge, and that is GUT, would never intentionally provide an unfair game. If they built their stuff on 'acceptable practices' that return the fair percentage, then blame the standard setters, not them!

And, as I always have, I challenge 3Dice - I have never been disappointed, and won't be this time.

I see this as (and forums be damned) the rightful rising of the current potential ultimate casino.

Fair is fair, young is young.

Truth is truth.
 
I don't know what a rigged state lottery has to do with online blackjack, but for some reason I was reminded of a Wikipedia article about the
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. The gist of it is:

It is philosophically justifiable to believe that every individual lottery ticket won't win, but not justifiable to believe that no lottery ticket will win.
Happy New Year!
 
I don't know what a rigged state lottery has to do with online blackjack, but for some reason I was reminded of a Wikipedia article about the
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. The gist of it is:


Happy New Year!
It may have been flawed! One thing we agree on prolly is rigged and flawed are not one and the same. I always felt there may be a difference between a B & M game (advantage players, of course there is so exclude that) and online BJ so I quit on my own (as I realize you always suggest) and then began again late Sept. 07 playing online BJ....I see alot of things that you do not see but that does not make either of us the gospel. Do I not have the right to seek the gospel (assuming there is one) despite the rhetoric and obstacles to date (i.e. documents and SOF's in hand that I have offered CM all of it and still do)......Anyways,for now you and I can hopefully just agree to disagree on why I am pursuing the issues...........SIDENOTE:the debate of balls for the public's trust versus computer at least to me was somewhat analogous(sp-fixed) to B & M cards versus online RNG cards....Respect:thumbsup:
 
Last edited:
Ask me here bra, no secrets. eff em if they can't take the truth. Whatever that is.
 
Ask me here bra, no secrets. eff em if they can't take the truth. Whatever that is.
Maybe let it rest til tomorrow, want to keep it civil hopefully, and then speak your mind if you need (to me I assume).....just a suggestion but do as you please when you please:thumbsup:
 
Ftr and because my OP is confusing per a few PM's...The excerpt is in quotes and blue and red colors...The lottery is the Tennessee state lottery (some thought it may have been about a lottery in Canada,my bad) in which the state lottery headquarters is in Nashvegas and this was a daily headline in the media for sometime with multiple issues not included in the excerpt.....This is the subject article excerpt's headline fwiw:Monday, 10/29/07

Lottery won't switch back to plastic numbered balls despite problems
 
I felt exactly the same way when I first read this thread.
That's usually the way I feel in any thread that Nash posts.

Jod
Yes dear ,you and your cohorts have made that quite clear for several months now......as Tim said you and cohorts come looking for a fight, will not happen,sorry and Happy New Year to all of you....I may e-mail Pina eventhough we have had our differences but she always stood for player fairness so maybe we can put our other differences aside for the good of the player;)
 
Nash Dear,

Me and "my cohorts" have made it quite clear for several months now.....that you were invited by Mrracetrack to visit and express your thoughts on Sucks.

You probably can find Pina on there.....but I doubt she would really want to have anything to do with you.

The invitation still stands.

Jod
 
Nash Dear,

Me and "my cohorts" have made it quite clear for several months now.....that you were invited by Mrracetrack to visit and express your thoughts on Sucks.

You probably can find Pina on there.....but I doubt she would really want to have anything to do with you.

The invitation still stands.

Jod
Did not know I was still welcome after November as my invites were prior to November....I will PM Track, he has always been a stand up gentleman in our prior PM exchanges.....not sure why you speak for Pina and I will make the effort to reconcile (as she always was first and foremost a talented and skilled advocate for the player) but respect her decision either way!
 
Nash,

Mrracetrack invited you to come to Sucks on at least three occasions. The invitation still stands. Mrracetrack is not interested in any PM exchanges with you here on Casinomeister.

Jod
Well now that we both derailed this thread for now, he has a PM from me and still not sure why you keep speaking for others. Track is welcome and hopefully will consider responding to my PM...Once again,HNY!
 
Strange as it may seem.... I think I know where you're coming from, Nash. BJ anywhere online definitely does not feel like playing BJ with real cards. However, are the end results the same? I guess that's what you want to know.

Also... what happened with independent audits of all the casinos/softwares? PWC jumped ship and ran away when the US anti-online gaming crap hit the fan, but didn't I read sometime back that eCogra was in charge of audits? That's rather.... weird...
 
Last edited:
Strange as it may seem.... I think I know where you're coming from, Nash. BJ anywhere online definitely does not fell like playing BJ with real cards. However, are the end results the same? I guess that's what you want to know.
Also... what happened with independent audits of all the casinos/softwares? PWC jumped ship and ran away when the US anti-online gaming crap hit the fan, but didn't I read sometime back that eCogra was in charge of audits? That's rather.... weird...
Spot on.......Also,I think PWC just gathered the info. supplied or as given by the MG casinos, then iirc then several months of no info from any source, and then eCogra set up shop, no clue what their audits entail.....others here will know alot more about this than I and these audits may just be for show, not sure how reliable they are! ....Interestingly, that after a couple PM's much earlier this morning I was able the clear up where I may have confused some and strangely they see (I assume) the analogy now....HNY:)
 
NashVegas.........I'm a little confused by your post as others are. ;)
I'm not sure how your post about state run lotteries relates to online gambling (BJ specifically,) but I've done quite a bit of reading online about lotteries in the US, and there are plenty of stories to find about the lack of randomness in the way the numbers are picked to outright cheating by lottery officials, etc.. There has been more than one controversy surrounding payouts and how the lotteries were voted in (North Carolina for example). Just do a google search and you'll find plenty of reading material if you are interested.
Are you trying to make a point that if state run lotteries get away with cheating that it's not such a stretch to think that it could happen with reputable online gambling establishments also?
 
NashVegas.........I'm a little confused by your post as others are. ;)
I'm not sure how your post about state run lotteries relates to online gambling (BJ specifically,) but I've done quite a bit of reading online about lotteries in the US, and there are plenty of stories to find about the lack of randomness in the way the numbers are picked to outright cheating by lottery officials, etc.. There has been more than one controversy surrounding payouts and how the lotteries were voted in (North Carolina for example). Just do a google search and you'll find plenty of reading material if you are interested.
Are you trying to make a point that if state run lotteries get away with cheating that it's not such a stretch to think that it could happen with reputable online gambling establishments also?
Sorry you are confused........the analogy is obviously hard to grasp but I am not implying cheating necessarily at all but the lottery issue based on some of my past personal BJ experiences made me say once and for all I want to figure out why online BJ seems so different than B & M BJ. Is it simply a matter of perception as I have posted,or are the online skewed log files in favor of the house time and time again possibly the result of flawed software,or as you state I may be stating possibly cheating,or possibly just the random shuffle or the software is possibly designed similiar to a slot type game,etc.....I do not have the answers but as I state and Mousey mentions, I am trying to find out if online BJ (results,perceptions,etc,) really are the same and why so much seems to the contrary. An audit went in circles leading to more confusion for all parties particularily myself and 3D (I can PM you later a brief summary of the circle if you like) but as I also state Enzo is working with me on the macro issues and questions so he must understand what I may not be able to express without confusing some. Not sure if he will try to put this in a better perspective of the issues and questions. I am not directly with malice making accusations re online BJ only seeking my own answers for now based on fact.
 
Last edited:
I dont know how you can prove or disprove anything related to blackjack.
I think any auditor could be kept in the dark with the information they use.
I do not necessarily disagree as I did post regarding an auditors,mathmatician's,statiscian's wiggle room with skewed results,expectations and standard deviations. Maybe I should say eff it but not quite yet. Let me see if maybe Enzo's idea can verify that 3rd party audits may not prove one thing so to speak but I hear ya loud and clear!
 
Nash,

Mrracetrack invited you to come to Sucks on at least three occasions. The invitation still stands. Mrracetrack is not interested in any PM exchanges with you here on Casinomeister.

Jod

You're violating rules trying to start a portal war, Jod.
 
Good time to ignore the derail, I don't even see the sense in discussing it in the attic. This is the kind of thing that immediately preceeded the closing of a section. It's not productive imo.
 
The point, I think, in mentioning the lotto glitch is that 'oopsies' happen whether the goof up is in lottery software or security, in games, in casinos....

For instance, the MG 4play 10's or Better autohold screwup. How many people lost money on that? Why? Because they (we) assumed MG knew what they were doing and wouldn't cheat and that the autohold was correct and working properly. Same thing with the English Harbour software VP double-up screw up. And on a larger scale: Absolute Poker -- except there, casino insiders actually deliberately cheated players by taking advantage of hinky software.

But all three situations required stomping and snorting and screaming by players to get the bugs straightened out.

So. For all the players that scream 'rigged', there are as many (or more) that say 'not rigged'... Me... I'm really not sure anymore. And what's so creepy about it all, is that we may never really know for certain. We operate on a certain amount of trust. And, I believe, player trust is gradually eroding.
 
The point, I think, in mentioning the lotto glitch is that 'oopsies' happen whether the goof up is in lottery software or security, in games, in casinos....

For instance, the MG 4play 10's or Better autohold screwup. How many people lost money on that? Why? Because they (we) assumed MG knew what they were doing and wouldn't cheat and that the autohold was correct and working properly. Same thing with the English Harbour software VP double-up screw up. And on a larger scale: Absolute Poker -- except there, casino insiders actually deliberately cheated players by taking advantage of hinky software.

But all three situations required stomping and snorting and screaming by players to get the bugs straightened out.

So. For all the players that scream 'rigged', there are as many (or more) that say 'not rigged'... Me... I'm really not sure anymore. And what's so creepy about it all, is that we may never really know for certain. We operate on a certain amount of trust. And, I believe, player trust is gradually eroding.
I wish I could have simply posted your post.....great post and eventhough I am a little bit here and a little bit there due to certain circumstances, you just expressed my exact sentiments in a much better way than I.
 
My apology

Greetings,

The new year has finally given me time to pause about the issues raised by NASHVEGAS surrounding the audit he hired me to do, and I feel some explanation is in order.

I was hired by NASHVEGAS to do this audit in early December. Although the numbers I arrived at were correct (with one small error early on dealing with the number of aces -- the file format provided was difficult to process), the audit I produced was unprofessional. I was in the process of cleaning up the wording and explaining in detail how I arrived at certain conclusions. It is complicated to write audits in a way that is neutral: organizations and individuals have different conceptions of the concept of neutrality and there are pulls in all directions.

What came next is hard to describe, but this audit happened to coincide with a particularly difficult personal period in my life. Let me put it simply: My longtime divorced parents died last year within 11 weeks of each other. My mother had cancer for 3 years. My dad died suddenly of a heart attack. My grief and depression have impacted me in ways that are hard to explain. The new year is here, things feel a little better now. How could the audited (3-dice or NASHVEGAS) know?

I worked on this audit for a week. Back and forth. Believe me, in this industry, there is not much trust, and everyone suspects hidden motives. The tension grew. I finally cracked.

The day I sent off the "final audit" to NASHVEGAS, I also quit the "band" I play with and also "quit" as a consultant at Compton Dancer Consulting. Two friends (band mates) drove up from Los Angeles and stayed over night with me. Eventually the band convinced me not to quit, and Jeffrey Compton asked me to stay on at CDC. The lasting damage of that day was the final letter I wrote for the audit I was hired to do by NASHVEGAS.

NASHVEGAS was left hanging by me. He had no idea why I did what I did, with all the versions. I wrote him a PM and email that didn't help much and probably just made it worse.

Essentially all the versions of my audits said the same things, with small explanations about how I arrived at numbers (with the exception of fixing the aces in the first version), and then I abrubtly changed course, and just said something like "The game is fair, but a full audit should be conducted of all the games at 3-dice."

NASHVEGAS has every right to be upset about how he was treated, about how this played out. He has every right to make the posts he has made. He was trying to figure out the truth without any hint about what the truth actually was. Speculation of all sort was only natural. I take full responsibility for the confusion and upset caused to him by my actions.

I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit.

I believe that 2008 is going to be a better year for me, and us. My parents are now really dead, the year is the next year, and it's time to move on.

With best wishes to all,

Happy new year,

Eliot
 
Last edited:
My condolences Eliot... i hope the new year brings peace to you and your family and thank you for sharing it with us....



this is kinda a question for the senior guys....

"I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit."

i'm kinda dense sometimes, but.... what exactly does this mean? i have to be honest in that i've been confused about this whole audit thing with nash and all from the beginning. what does an "audit" actually consist of? the games? financial records? random number generator? or everything?
 
Dear Eliot,

I am sure that all of us here can see that you have gone through an extremely unsettling period. May you have a good year in 2008. Take care.

Some of us here may not fully understand why you recommend a full and independent audit of all games at 3 Dice when there are no signs that the games are in any way 'rigged'. Do you actually mean that it would not be fair to either the software/casino or the players to arrive at a conclusion without actually performing a full audit as the data at hand was not conclusive.
 
Eliot,
Thank you for your gracious and sincere apology. You will always have my respect and I wish you the best during these trying times. I feel compelled to request that this thread be closed if no one objects. Thanks again Eliot, Garry.
 
once again condolences to you and yours elliot, but i gotta ask are you saying that like what chu says above or are you saying that with what you saw that there could very well be a reason why one goes on such long and bad losing streaks at 3 dice, not saying they are rigged to cheat but that the software could be malfunctioning?
 
nash, with all due respect....am i the only one "not getting it?" i understand if it is something that could be above my head, but i'm still confused.

of course, it you consider the matter closed, far be it for anyone else to object, but i'm still not sure about the "matter" that is being "closed." :D
 
nash, with all due respect....am i the only one "not getting it?" i understand if it is something that could be above my head, but i'm still confused.

of course, it you consider the matter closed, far be it for anyone else to object, but i'm still not sure about the "matter" that is being "closed." :D
It was just my opinion that closing maybe should be considered or at least temporarily, then maybe reopened based on just current circumstance! You have every right to object. I now feel I have nothing further to contribute and it was my understanding from Enzo as of few days ago that 3DICE does intend to seek an independent full audit soon in the best interest of all parties as Eliot suggests. That should then put all issues to rest ( assuming an auditor capable of the task as until this evening I was not sure an audit meant anything but I believe a very humbling post by Eliot and a conversation with Eliot this evening has restored my belief in the validity of certified fair gaming audits) jmo:thumbsup:
 
"I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit."

It's obvious that you're trying to distance yourself from this whole ordeal and appear neautral, but this is quite a damaging statement as it casts quite a shadow of doubt about this casino's credibility. I think you just dug yourself a hole that's going to be hard to climb out of.
 
It is important that an auditor be neutral, and form conclusions based only on what the numbers tell him.

To me, the statement that 3Dice should have an audit means only that. Frankly, I think every online casino should have all games audited by independent, reputable auditors on a regular basis, with the overall results being made public.
 
...but this is quite a damaging statement as it casts quite a shadow of doubt about this casino's credibility. I think you just dug yourself a hole that's going to be hard to climb out of.
It has already been made clear that the statement "...I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games..." is an unloaded one. Nothing damaging in that; nothing wrong with that. Everyone has been upfront with everything so there is no question about credibility in my opinion.
 
It has already been made clear that the statement "...I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games..." is an unloaded one. Nothing damaging in that; nothing wrong with that. Everyone has been upfront with everything so there is no question about credibility in my opinion.


Perhaps a very bad choice of words at the very least. Wouldn't a statement like..... "I feel that all casinos need a full and independent audit of all their games" have been a much better way of putting it?
 
Perhaps a very bad choice of words at the very least. Wouldn't a statement like..... "I feel that all casinos need a full and independent audit of all their games" have been a much better way of putting it?
That's the difficulty of language - especially written. The sentence standing on its own could imply less than fair software, but taken within the context of the entire assessment - it loses its negative implication. Just goes to show we all read things a bit differently.
 
Let me clarify...

"I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit."

My statement above is not a statement about 3-dice in particular having software issues, I simply feel that all companies that produce their own online casino software should have a full audit by an independent company that has no financial interest in the results. There is no hurry for this; it should be done eventually and I am sure they will come through.

I would like to extend my apology above to 3-dice as well. They also had to deal with a lot of the confusion caused by the circumstances I described.

There was also a question about what an "audit" means. This means being sent complete log files for a period of time for every wager on every game, that includes a history of all events for that game (the cards dealt, the values of the dice for each spin, or whatever). One then designs statistical tests to verify that the sequence of cards or dice tosses or whatever are behaving in a fashion that is indistinguishable from "random." If you wonder what "random" means, I recommend the first 170 pages of volume 1 of the book "Semi-numerical algorithms" by Donald Knuth. In a nutshell, random means that the values should statistically perform normally for every conceivable test. In practice one cannot conduct every conceivable test, so one picks a few tests and looks for anything that indicates further tests are needed.

For example, in blackjack, from what I understand PWC samples subsets of cards of various sizes and makes sure that no matter what subset they choose, those cards are equally distributed between the 52 cards. They sample subsets of dealer cards, player cards, and other subsets, and in every case they verify the normal distribution of the cards.

That is not how I proceed. I have 10 tests that I have designed, plus I also do whatever tests a particular client requests. For example, I verify distribution of every possible 2 card starting hand. I look at blackjacks and aces. I consider draw cards to hard totals for the player, draw cards for double downs. I have many more tests. This is much more detailed (from what I understand) than the PWC proceedure. It is not possible to say that my methods are any better. Both PWC and myself are just looking for some indication that something should be looked at in more detail.

Best to all,

Eliot
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Accredited Casinos

Read about our rating system and how it's done.
Back
Top