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WHY I TRIED TO PAY FOR AN AUDIT!!! I THINK EVEN 3DICE WILL VOUCH FOR ME???
- Thread starter NASHVEGAS
- Start date
LOL, ya think...nope, just prolly some more derails by________!
GaryWatson
Dormant account
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2007
- Location
- Europe
I agreed with below
Mousey
Ueber Meister Mouse
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Location
- Up$hitCreek
The point, I think, in mentioning the lotto glitch is that 'oopsies' happen whether the goof up is in lottery software or security, in games, in casinos....
For instance, the MG 4play 10's or Better autohold screwup. How many people lost money on that? Why? Because they (we) assumed MG knew what they were doing and wouldn't cheat and that the autohold was correct and working properly. Same thing with the English Harbour software VP double-up screw up. And on a larger scale: Absolute Poker -- except there, casino insiders actually deliberately cheated players by taking advantage of hinky software.
But all three situations required stomping and snorting and screaming by players to get the bugs straightened out.
So. For all the players that scream 'rigged', there are as many (or more) that say 'not rigged'... Me... I'm really not sure anymore. And what's so creepy about it all, is that we may never really know for certain. We operate on a certain amount of trust. And, I believe, player trust is gradually eroding.
For instance, the MG 4play 10's or Better autohold screwup. How many people lost money on that? Why? Because they (we) assumed MG knew what they were doing and wouldn't cheat and that the autohold was correct and working properly. Same thing with the English Harbour software VP double-up screw up. And on a larger scale: Absolute Poker -- except there, casino insiders actually deliberately cheated players by taking advantage of hinky software.
But all three situations required stomping and snorting and screaming by players to get the bugs straightened out.
So. For all the players that scream 'rigged', there are as many (or more) that say 'not rigged'... Me... I'm really not sure anymore. And what's so creepy about it all, is that we may never really know for certain. We operate on a certain amount of trust. And, I believe, player trust is gradually eroding.
I wish I could have simply posted your post.....great post and eventhough I am a little bit here and a little bit there due to certain circumstances, you just expressed my exact sentiments in a much better way than I.
peteyweestro
Dormant Account
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Location
- So Cal...Antelope Valley
i was gonna say good one mousey, as i felt you had nailed the gist of nashs post, don't know what was really so confusing about it but anyways what i really want to know is what is sucks and how do i get there
Eliot Jacobson
Dormant account
- Joined
- May 9, 2006
- Location
- Santa Barbara
My apology
Greetings,
The new year has finally given me time to pause about the issues raised by NASHVEGAS surrounding the audit he hired me to do, and I feel some explanation is in order.
I was hired by NASHVEGAS to do this audit in early December. Although the numbers I arrived at were correct (with one small error early on dealing with the number of aces -- the file format provided was difficult to process), the audit I produced was unprofessional. I was in the process of cleaning up the wording and explaining in detail how I arrived at certain conclusions. It is complicated to write audits in a way that is neutral: organizations and individuals have different conceptions of the concept of neutrality and there are pulls in all directions.
What came next is hard to describe, but this audit happened to coincide with a particularly difficult personal period in my life. Let me put it simply: My longtime divorced parents died last year within 11 weeks of each other. My mother had cancer for 3 years. My dad died suddenly of a heart attack. My grief and depression have impacted me in ways that are hard to explain. The new year is here, things feel a little better now. How could the audited (3-dice or NASHVEGAS) know?
I worked on this audit for a week. Back and forth. Believe me, in this industry, there is not much trust, and everyone suspects hidden motives. The tension grew. I finally cracked.
The day I sent off the "final audit" to NASHVEGAS, I also quit the "band" I play with and also "quit" as a consultant at Compton Dancer Consulting. Two friends (band mates) drove up from Los Angeles and stayed over night with me. Eventually the band convinced me not to quit, and Jeffrey Compton asked me to stay on at CDC. The lasting damage of that day was the final letter I wrote for the audit I was hired to do by NASHVEGAS.
NASHVEGAS was left hanging by me. He had no idea why I did what I did, with all the versions. I wrote him a PM and email that didn't help much and probably just made it worse.
Essentially all the versions of my audits said the same things, with small explanations about how I arrived at numbers (with the exception of fixing the aces in the first version), and then I abrubtly changed course, and just said something like "The game is fair, but a full audit should be conducted of all the games at 3-dice."
NASHVEGAS has every right to be upset about how he was treated, about how this played out. He has every right to make the posts he has made. He was trying to figure out the truth without any hint about what the truth actually was. Speculation of all sort was only natural. I take full responsibility for the confusion and upset caused to him by my actions.
I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit.
I believe that 2008 is going to be a better year for me, and us. My parents are now really dead, the year is the next year, and it's time to move on.
With best wishes to all,
Happy new year,
Eliot
Greetings,
The new year has finally given me time to pause about the issues raised by NASHVEGAS surrounding the audit he hired me to do, and I feel some explanation is in order.
I was hired by NASHVEGAS to do this audit in early December. Although the numbers I arrived at were correct (with one small error early on dealing with the number of aces -- the file format provided was difficult to process), the audit I produced was unprofessional. I was in the process of cleaning up the wording and explaining in detail how I arrived at certain conclusions. It is complicated to write audits in a way that is neutral: organizations and individuals have different conceptions of the concept of neutrality and there are pulls in all directions.
What came next is hard to describe, but this audit happened to coincide with a particularly difficult personal period in my life. Let me put it simply: My longtime divorced parents died last year within 11 weeks of each other. My mother had cancer for 3 years. My dad died suddenly of a heart attack. My grief and depression have impacted me in ways that are hard to explain. The new year is here, things feel a little better now. How could the audited (3-dice or NASHVEGAS) know?
I worked on this audit for a week. Back and forth. Believe me, in this industry, there is not much trust, and everyone suspects hidden motives. The tension grew. I finally cracked.
The day I sent off the "final audit" to NASHVEGAS, I also quit the "band" I play with and also "quit" as a consultant at Compton Dancer Consulting. Two friends (band mates) drove up from Los Angeles and stayed over night with me. Eventually the band convinced me not to quit, and Jeffrey Compton asked me to stay on at CDC. The lasting damage of that day was the final letter I wrote for the audit I was hired to do by NASHVEGAS.
NASHVEGAS was left hanging by me. He had no idea why I did what I did, with all the versions. I wrote him a PM and email that didn't help much and probably just made it worse.
Essentially all the versions of my audits said the same things, with small explanations about how I arrived at numbers (with the exception of fixing the aces in the first version), and then I abrubtly changed course, and just said something like "The game is fair, but a full audit should be conducted of all the games at 3-dice."
NASHVEGAS has every right to be upset about how he was treated, about how this played out. He has every right to make the posts he has made. He was trying to figure out the truth without any hint about what the truth actually was. Speculation of all sort was only natural. I take full responsibility for the confusion and upset caused to him by my actions.
I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit.
I believe that 2008 is going to be a better year for me, and us. My parents are now really dead, the year is the next year, and it's time to move on.
With best wishes to all,
Happy new year,
Eliot
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My condolences Eliot... i hope the new year brings peace to you and your family and thank you for sharing it with us....
this is kinda a question for the senior guys....
"I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit."
i'm kinda dense sometimes, but.... what exactly does this mean? i have to be honest in that i've been confused about this whole audit thing with nash and all from the beginning. what does an "audit" actually consist of? the games? financial records? random number generator? or everything?
this is kinda a question for the senior guys....
"I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit."
i'm kinda dense sometimes, but.... what exactly does this mean? i have to be honest in that i've been confused about this whole audit thing with nash and all from the beginning. what does an "audit" actually consist of? the games? financial records? random number generator? or everything?
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2004
- Location
- SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Dear Eliot,
I am sure that all of us here can see that you have gone through an extremely unsettling period. May you have a good year in 2008. Take care.
Some of us here may not fully understand why you recommend a full and independent audit of all games at 3 Dice when there are no signs that the games are in any way 'rigged'. Do you actually mean that it would not be fair to either the software/casino or the players to arrive at a conclusion without actually performing a full audit as the data at hand was not conclusive.
I am sure that all of us here can see that you have gone through an extremely unsettling period. May you have a good year in 2008. Take care.
Some of us here may not fully understand why you recommend a full and independent audit of all games at 3 Dice when there are no signs that the games are in any way 'rigged'. Do you actually mean that it would not be fair to either the software/casino or the players to arrive at a conclusion without actually performing a full audit as the data at hand was not conclusive.
Eliot,
Thank you for your gracious and sincere apology. You will always have my respect and I wish you the best during these trying times. I feel compelled to request that this thread be closed if no one objects. Thanks again Eliot, Garry.
Thank you for your gracious and sincere apology. You will always have my respect and I wish you the best during these trying times. I feel compelled to request that this thread be closed if no one objects. Thanks again Eliot, Garry.
peteyweestro
Dormant Account
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Location
- So Cal...Antelope Valley
once again condolences to you and yours elliot, but i gotta ask are you saying that like what chu says above or are you saying that with what you saw that there could very well be a reason why one goes on such long and bad losing streaks at 3 dice, not saying they are rigged to cheat but that the software could be malfunctioning?
nash, with all due respect....am i the only one "not getting it?" i understand if it is something that could be above my head, but i'm still confused.
of course, it you consider the matter closed, far be it for anyone else to object, but i'm still not sure about the "matter" that is being "closed."
of course, it you consider the matter closed, far be it for anyone else to object, but i'm still not sure about the "matter" that is being "closed."
It was just my opinion that closing maybe should be considered or at least temporarily, then maybe reopened based on just current circumstance! You have every right to object. I now feel I have nothing further to contribute and it was my understanding from Enzo as of few days ago that 3DICE does intend to seek an independent full audit soon in the best interest of all parties as Eliot suggests. That should then put all issues to rest ( assuming an auditor capable of the task as until this evening I was not sure an audit meant anything but I believe a very humbling post by Eliot and a conversation with Eliot this evening has restored my belief in the validity of certified fair gaming audits) jmonash, with all due respect....am i the only one "not getting it?" i understand if it is something that could be above my head, but i'm still confused.
of course, it you consider the matter closed, far be it for anyone else to object, but i'm still not sure about the "matter" that is being "closed."
"I do not want to address the results of the audit itself. The results may come to light, or they may not. The fundamental point I made in all the versions is that I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games. I still stand by that. Please do not misconstrue this as a statement that I feel that 3-dice is rigged in any way. They just need a full audit."
It's obvious that you're trying to distance yourself from this whole ordeal and appear neautral, but this is quite a damaging statement as it casts quite a shadow of doubt about this casino's credibility. I think you just dug yourself a hole that's going to be hard to climb out of.
It's obvious that you're trying to distance yourself from this whole ordeal and appear neautral, but this is quite a damaging statement as it casts quite a shadow of doubt about this casino's credibility. I think you just dug yourself a hole that's going to be hard to climb out of.
Mousey
Ueber Meister Mouse
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Location
- Up$hitCreek
It is important that an auditor be neutral, and form conclusions based only on what the numbers tell him.
To me, the statement that 3Dice should have an audit means only that. Frankly, I think every online casino should have all games audited by independent, reputable auditors on a regular basis, with the overall results being made public.
To me, the statement that 3Dice should have an audit means only that. Frankly, I think every online casino should have all games audited by independent, reputable auditors on a regular basis, with the overall results being made public.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
It has already been made clear that the statement "...I feel that 3-dice needs a full and independent audit of all its games..." is an unloaded one. Nothing damaging in that; nothing wrong with that. Everyone has been upfront with everything so there is no question about credibility in my opinion.
Nash?? I can find my own trouble easily enough. I don't even know who this person is you're talking to!
Do I?Perhaps a very bad choice of words at the very least. Wouldn't a statement like..... "I feel that all casinos need a full and independent audit of all their games" have been a much better way of putting it?
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
That's the difficulty of language - especially written. The sentence standing on its own could imply less than fair software, but taken within the context of the entire assessment - it loses its negative implication. Just goes to show we all read things a bit differently.
Sorry I mentioned you,Tim!Nash?? I can find my own trouble easily enough. I don't even know who this person is you're talking to!
Eliot Jacobson
Dormant account
- Joined
- May 9, 2006
- Location
- Santa Barbara
Let me clarify...
My statement above is not a statement about 3-dice in particular having software issues, I simply feel that all companies that produce their own online casino software should have a full audit by an independent company that has no financial interest in the results. There is no hurry for this; it should be done eventually and I am sure they will come through.
I would like to extend my apology above to 3-dice as well. They also had to deal with a lot of the confusion caused by the circumstances I described.
There was also a question about what an "audit" means. This means being sent complete log files for a period of time for every wager on every game, that includes a history of all events for that game (the cards dealt, the values of the dice for each spin, or whatever). One then designs statistical tests to verify that the sequence of cards or dice tosses or whatever are behaving in a fashion that is indistinguishable from "random." If you wonder what "random" means, I recommend the first 170 pages of volume 1 of the book "Semi-numerical algorithms" by Donald Knuth. In a nutshell, random means that the values should statistically perform normally for every conceivable test. In practice one cannot conduct every conceivable test, so one picks a few tests and looks for anything that indicates further tests are needed.
For example, in blackjack, from what I understand PWC samples subsets of cards of various sizes and makes sure that no matter what subset they choose, those cards are equally distributed between the 52 cards. They sample subsets of dealer cards, player cards, and other subsets, and in every case they verify the normal distribution of the cards.
That is not how I proceed. I have 10 tests that I have designed, plus I also do whatever tests a particular client requests. For example, I verify distribution of every possible 2 card starting hand. I look at blackjacks and aces. I consider draw cards to hard totals for the player, draw cards for double downs. I have many more tests. This is much more detailed (from what I understand) than the PWC proceedure. It is not possible to say that my methods are any better. Both PWC and myself are just looking for some indication that something should be looked at in more detail.
Best to all,
Eliot
My statement above is not a statement about 3-dice in particular having software issues, I simply feel that all companies that produce their own online casino software should have a full audit by an independent company that has no financial interest in the results. There is no hurry for this; it should be done eventually and I am sure they will come through.
I would like to extend my apology above to 3-dice as well. They also had to deal with a lot of the confusion caused by the circumstances I described.
There was also a question about what an "audit" means. This means being sent complete log files for a period of time for every wager on every game, that includes a history of all events for that game (the cards dealt, the values of the dice for each spin, or whatever). One then designs statistical tests to verify that the sequence of cards or dice tosses or whatever are behaving in a fashion that is indistinguishable from "random." If you wonder what "random" means, I recommend the first 170 pages of volume 1 of the book "Semi-numerical algorithms" by Donald Knuth. In a nutshell, random means that the values should statistically perform normally for every conceivable test. In practice one cannot conduct every conceivable test, so one picks a few tests and looks for anything that indicates further tests are needed.
For example, in blackjack, from what I understand PWC samples subsets of cards of various sizes and makes sure that no matter what subset they choose, those cards are equally distributed between the 52 cards. They sample subsets of dealer cards, player cards, and other subsets, and in every case they verify the normal distribution of the cards.
That is not how I proceed. I have 10 tests that I have designed, plus I also do whatever tests a particular client requests. For example, I verify distribution of every possible 2 card starting hand. I look at blackjacks and aces. I consider draw cards to hard totals for the player, draw cards for double downs. I have many more tests. This is much more detailed (from what I understand) than the PWC proceedure. It is not possible to say that my methods are any better. Both PWC and myself are just looking for some indication that something should be looked at in more detail.
Best to all,
Eliot
Last edited:
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