What would YOU do?

[IanO]

I had a case come across my desk the other day and I wanted to see what the folks here thought of it, and if you think I made the right call or not.

A relatively new player submitted a withdrawal request, and e-mailed us in asking for it to be flushed as she 'didn't want to be able to reverse!'. That's fair enough and we were happy to oblige, but there was still an outstanding request for documents which we reminded the player of.

Long story short the player had some problems providing the docs, but said she would be able to at the end of the month, and can we put the money back in her Bingo account for now so she can play it. Based on her earlier request for a flush our support staff initially refused. The player responded with a complaint that this is her money and she should be entitled to do what she wants with it. She was quite adamant we give her the funds, either as a withdrawal or to play. Because it would be weeks before she could provide the docs I reluctantly agreed, and we let the player have the funds back in her gaming account with a reminder we still need her to provide the docs. Sadly she went on to lose the funds and requested an account closure rather than send those in.

Would you have refused to let the player reverse, even if this meant her kicking up a public fuss and complaining, or would you accept that as a grown up she's entitled to make her own choices? If it had not been for the lengthy timeframe I would have stood firm, but expecting a player to deposit to play while we held funds in 'limbo' just didn't seem to make sense.

Let the debate begin! (or is it an open and shut case?)

 

[Tirilej]

I think it was great that you first denied it. Not many casinos would.
I do flush my cashouts, but sometimes take a part of it out anyway. It havn't crossed my mind that they could refuse to let me

She is suppose to be grown up so that you gave her that later was also right. She knew she could lose it so it was her decision to make.

 

[cpdnd31]

Well my solution would have been you can have half of your funds. Reminding her that you have many customers who have gambling problems and they flush as a safety net. Also with her only receiving half you could have gotten docs. from her. I would have copied chat and made her sign it lol... just to protect the casinos ass in case she tried to claim they let me reverse it. you never know what people will do when it comes to gambling.

 

[colly]

I would probably NOT have allowed the reversal. She requested the flush rather than you initiating it. I wish more casinos would flush and refuse to "unflush"- after all it is usually those of us with no willpower that want the flush and we need the casino to stick to it (LOL). Also I think you leave yourself open to (from my point of view completely baseless)potential players that can't cope with the loss trying to claim there loss or deposit back because they have a problem and you allowed them to reverse after they requested the flush.

In this particular case I am suspicious as she already been a client had an OS docs request still couldn't produce them and eventually closed rather than do so- I rather think she hoped the flush and subsequent demands of reverse or pay me would result in you paying her without doc's (even if you closed the account)- but them I am cynical!

 

[michielm1]

if you would have flushed it, that would only mean for the player, that she wouldn't be able to reverse it right? obviously that would be something that depends on th courtesy of the casino, but for the casino it could provide a 'back door' in situations like this. if there would have developed any problems regarding the players credibility, or problems with verification/ authentication, you dont have to 'take away' anything from the players account (probably causing quite a fuzz), as the player herself basically asked you to keep the money from her.

i would definately not be good for any marketing/customer service/pr-position, as i would tell the player to go .... him/herself, in a situation like this. perhaps she wanted to wait untill she would become of legal age...?

 

[Tirilej]

I have to say one more thing, obviously

If I flush a cashout it's not because I don't want to be able to use the money. It's because I want to be paid faster.
I know many people believes that you are not able to reverse when you have flushed a cashout, but you can actually do that anyway.
Sorry for telling. I might shouldn't have done that

 

[Jasminebed]

It probably won't be the last time such an issue crosses your desk. There may be difficulties providing docs for a number of reasons, I vividly remember almost 4 years ago when my daughter and son-in-law stopped by to pick up some stuff I needed scanned for a cashout and her water broke while they were visiting! Needless to say, scanning my docs went way down their list of priorities, lol.

I'd say that if a player asks that a withdrawal be made non-reversible (which is probably a better term than "flushed" in this instance), that you require a 48 or 72 hour cool-down period after a written request to change the withdrawal staus back to playable. It should be made clear to the player that it will require an email to support and this cool-down period before you can accommodate the request in the interest of responsible gambling when they initially ask for a lock-down, a deposit limit, or a temporary closure.

It's also not unusual in this industry for a player to have their account locked entirely pending providing documents. Just saying.

 

[colly]

I have to say one more thing, obviously

If I flush a cashout it's not because I don't want to be able to use the money. It's because I want to be paid faster.
I know many people believes that you are not able to reverse when you have flushed a cashout, but you can actually do that anyway.
Sorry for telling. I might shouldn't have done that

True but in this case the player specifically asked for the flush so she couldn't reverse!

In many cases a flush is not just to fast pay but so a reversal must be requested (rather than auto from the software)- I actually tell the casinos I play at thatdso flush that no reversal rather than pay now is the reason and most will honour that.

 

[Osloking]

lol i have done this to many times at 32red, ive flush it, it goes couple of hours and i reverse small part, ive go on losing streak, i reverse another more and bigger and bigger till the whole amount is big fat 0.. the worst part is that I never learn from my mistakes..

 

[Osloking]

btw i forgot to say many casino that i know wont reverse it when you first request a withdraw, its sent to financial team right away and it wont be able for CS to do anything. i wish all casino had this..

 

[chayton]

I don't understand why the player couldn't get their docs in til the end of the month? I'm assuming there was a reasonable explanation, but just that part seems a little hinky to me. I play and win and flush my withdrawal so I don't reverse, then you tell me that you need docs, I tell you I can't get them til the end of the month and to put the money back in my account, I play it and close my account. It seems a little suspicious that's all. Or maybe I'm a cynic too.

 

[IanO]

Great feedback!

Hey all. Thanks for the feedback... exactly the kind of responses I was hoping/looking for.

The thing that's surprised me the most so far is people reversing flushed withdrawals. I'd always defined 'flushed' as 'unreversable'... if you can still get funds back to play with that have been flushed, what exactly does flushing achieve?

Nice idea to offer half... but having read the mails that went back and forth I know that would not have gone down well.

To those of you with questions, I'm a little reluctant to provide more detail of exactly what the player said as this is a real case not a hypothetical one, so data protection, privacy and all that.

Thank you all once again. I'll be using the feedback here to set up rules the staff can follow if similar circumstances crop up again.

 

[cpdnd31]

Flush= quicker payout- take out of account now please.

Locked= please protect money so i don't spend it back...

with some casinos for USA having up to 72 hour waiting period now, it is nice to be able to lock acct so you don't spend your winnings back- (especially since most require a min of 300 withdrawal)

 

[dougbet1]

I've only ever once asked for a flushed withdrawal to be reversed and that was with Bet365 who said no, I was glad they said no as I know what would of happened.

My opinion is that a flushed withdrawal shouldn't be reversible, partly because I do it so it becomes 'un-touchable', secondly because I assume it's an additional, manual, process for staff to go through.

 

[butterflyboogie]

Ian

You did the right thing, plain and simple. She requested a flush, you obliged. She then wanted it back, it was her money, you obliged. Her spending it was her choice. Your initial refusal let her know that you were not recommending that however SHE made the choice. So that being said, if she is upset over her losing, that's her problem. We are adults with choices...she made hers! Don't even stress about it.

 

[KasinoKing]

You did the right thing, plain and simple. She requested a flush, you obliged. She then wanted it back, it was her money, you obliged. Her spending it was her choice. Your initial refusal let her know that you were not recommending that however SHE made the choice. So that being said, if she is upset over her losing, that's her problem. We are adults with choices...she made hers! Don't even stress about it.

I 100% agree with this! (Saved me a bit of typing too! )

KK

 

[Freeman]

Short answer: Flushed is flushed. No reverse. And this shall be a standard procedure. Otherwise, whats the point?

 

[dionysus]

I think the casino should have TWO terms:

Flush...so the player can continue playing on remaining funds, while the flushed amount is fastracked to the WD process; should the funds not reach finalize the processing part, flushed funds can be re-inserted back into the casino should the player chooses.

Non-Reverse: If the player emails, or writes chat, clearly stating to make the funds non-reversible, they're completely and utterly locked, even if the player requests otherwise, until such time as they are withdrawn. To protect their asses from players re-writing back demanding it saying 'it's MINE', put the clause in the T and Cs explaining the non-reverse and as well, have support have a cut-n-paste line to the effect of "Do you understand that once you ask for non-reversible funds, the funds will be locked until such time as a withdraw and at no time, even if by request, shall be released to you, except in the case of withdraw?Do you agree to these terms?" whereupon the player can say 'yes' or 'no'.

 

[bsilva028]

i think you did the right thing
flush and unflush it was her choice

however, wait until end of month to send the docs?? looks suspicious

 

[nisosbar]

Personally, my view is that players are adults, and should ultimately be able to do what they want with their money. So I probably would have reversed it, if she had been insistent (as she was) - so you did the right thing, IMO.

A flush process that puts funds out of reach of even customer service reps is okay, though - but if they escalate to a manager who can unflush, then that should be done.

I prefer casinos that flush - but I have unflushed, too. And won or lost, but I'm an adult, and there's no complaining, IMO.

 

[secret2]

Why have flushing if you can ask for it to be reversed? Whether one is an 'adult' or not flushing should be just that, flushed and not reversable.

Fair gaming, I think, is part of this. Flushing? Why have it then?

No.

If you want your winnings flushed then terms and conditions should be set in place. "If you want to flush your winnings, they may not be reversed".

I think the cooling off period should be set in place. Flushing should be thought of as a 'cooling off' period....IMVHO.

 

[Jasminebed]

i think you did the right thing
flush and unflush it was her choice

however, wait until end of month to send the docs?? looks suspicious

Until just over a year ago, I didn't have a passport or a driver's licence, and there was no other photo ID option for me other than getting a citizenship card. Ontario now offers one, but that's only quite recent, and it still takes 6 to 8 weeks to get, and is not free. IA passport is over $100 here with photo costs and the cost of a money order, and can take over a month.

I've seen people talk about only receiving utility bills quarterly. If you have opted for paperless, it may require a trip to your own branch in person to get a printout, or wait for things by mail.

Most T&Cs say you should provide ID in a timely manner, without that being well defined. I know that whatever casino I needed to provide docs for back in Dec 2008, it was over Xmas season, so I let them know it would be early in the new year before I could get the faxback in to them. And then the delay I explained earlier in this thread. I kept the casino in the loop as to why I had delays.

I was aware I had less than ideal ID, but I have quite a bit of it, lol. Including a picture of me holding my government issued photo health card, at the request of Vegassky.

But had any casino ever been insistent that I required a driver's licence or passport, I certainly could not have complied immediately.

I can now, so I no longer try to pre-verify.

But a delay doesn't mean someone is suspicious necessarily. It may just mean they need time and money to get the proper documents.

If the sum is small enough, it might be worth trying for a larger cashout to make it worthwhile getting a passport.

A long time ago, when I could still play Slotocash Rival, I'd made several deposits, and finally hit a decent cashout. But to my dismay, I found the cheque option for withdrawals was not really available, and there were delays in setting up a Moneybookers account and funding it. While I got the account set up, the verification sum they deducted from my bank was deducted in CAD, but sent in euros, and it was the euro amount I had to enter. My ID was satisfactory to them, but they required a deposit by MB to pay to MB.

Never did get it sorted, and I blew back almost $900 in the process. Played again, since it was now underway, and another casino which I had been playing at for a while allowed me to deposit a little extra I could withdraw to MB and fund it that way. I understand from other threads they have fixed that issue.

Quite a bit of derail, but the automatic assumption that a person is fraudulent just because they don't have all their ducks in row rubs me the wrong way.

 

[P.V.]

I had a case come across my desk the other day and I wanted to see what the folks here thought of it, and if you think I made the right call or not.

A relatively new player submitted a withdrawal request, and e-mailed us in asking for it to be flushed as she 'didn't want to be able to reverse!'. That's fair enough and we were happy to oblige, but there was still an outstanding request for documents which we reminded the player of.

Long story short the player had some problems providing the docs, but said she would be able to at the end of the month, and can we put the money back in her Bingo account for now so she can play it. Based on her earlier request for a flush our support staff initially refused. The player responded with a complaint that this is her money and she should be entitled to do what she wants with it. She was quite adamant we give her the funds, either as a withdrawal or to play. Because it would be weeks before she could provide the docs I reluctantly agreed, and we let the player have the funds back in her gaming account with a reminder we still need her to provide the docs. Sadly she went on to lose the funds and requested an account closure rather than send those in.Would you have refused to let the player reverse, even if this meant her kicking up a public fuss and complaining, or would you accept that as a grown up she's entitled to make her own choices? If it had not been for the lengthy timeframe I would have stood firm, but expecting a player to deposit to play while we held funds in 'limbo' just didn't seem to make sense.

Let the debate begin! (or is it an open and shut case?)

It would depend how this player rated during the initial registration. I'm sure you probably have some sort of internal API check during this process. If it was weak, or unable to verify that particular person I probably would have held the funds until they provided their documents for complete KYC.

There's always the possibility on the players behalf it may take 30 days to provide but does seem a bit suspect but doesn't attest something's wrong. Nevada regs. require players to completely verify 30 days after registration or their account will be closed and all funds confiscated by the operator.

It's possible you're dealing with a minor or some sort of collusion attempt but that would be speculation until the doc's are reviewed. That's not going to happen now since they closed their account.

If it had been a fully verified player I see no problem letting them continue play. Being this person hadn't been completely verified, might have been better to make them send in the doc's before reversing the flush request.

 

[Seaman63]

I never would play at a place that is not respecting my decisions about my funds. I´m not talking about any bonus funds involved.

 

[Marie2473]

I think you did right by first denying, that gave ´her extra time to really think.
In the end it is her money so I think you handled it correctly!

 

[requiem]

You did correctly in my opinion. She is big enough to handle her decisions.

 

[dinahbrand]

It was the right thing to do. You tried to help but people have to help themselves and she made it clear she wanted her winnings put back. Is it possible she really wasn't an adult?

Either way a lesson was learned.

 

[skiny]

I had a flush reverse not long ago.

Thankfully it stopped before it got to the seat.