What constitutes a Fair Slot?

lojo

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Opinions will vary...
Here is my definition
  • The RNG feeds the program a number (most programs retrieve this at spin button being 'pushed')

    The Program has a mathematical formula based on longterm payout percentage that will, over time, payback 95% if house edge is 5%


  • RNG is not concerned with how many lines, how many coins, nor their denominations. It is not interacting at all with the program except to feed a number when called for.

  • A fair program is not concerned either, it will produce the same screen results when I bet one cent one line or $5 per line on all 15 lines.

  • The program only uses my bet size and lines wagered to calculate my payback

I'm planning on staying on this one until there is general agreement on how B&M and Microgaming slots work. Brianzz says he knows that bet size can affect payout percentage and I found allusions to it in Nevada Gaming Commision Regulations (it says the word SLOT, not video poker, and it doesn't matter whether you pick two nickles or one dime it is increasing the bet size)

In the 'cracking the reels' thread there has been preliminary proof shown that when playing one line on weighted reels it will give a different payout percentage than playing all lines.

I'm not too concerned if the features are 'predetermined'. We've been informed that they aren't on some Rival 'pick 'em' games... 50/50 as long as you can pick.

I haven't wanted to disrupt the flow on the crackin thread, but would be very interested in which games by, say, IGT and MG fit my definition of a fair slot.

We know 3Dice software is fair as Enzo has assured these points before.
Now we have some proofs (unless I misunderstood) that some of the older MG slots are not fair in these respects.
It would be nice if RTG, or a casino here could also tell us the minimum they can set the slot returns to and if they can change the variance of a particular slot (dream on).

I may be willing to modify my opinion of fair, but for now it is as stated. Any thoughts?
 

Mousey

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Up$hitCreek
One of my favorite B&M slots is Triple Stars -- an old fashioned, boring single line 3 reeler. One of my favorite machines is a mulitdenomination. I can play quarters, fifty cents, $1 by my choice. Slot director would give me no specifics as to payout % (it's top secret you see :rolleyes: ) but would only say the following (and this is as close as I can come to a direct quote):

Most of our slots, when we order them, pay out basically the same percentages across all machines per each denomination.

In B&M casinos, the multidenomination reel slots have a different chip per denomination. If the casino likes 90% payout on quarters, that's in there. If the casino likes 93% payout on fifty cents, it's in there, too. If the casino likes 95% on $1 that's also there. It comes the way the casino ordered it. If they wanted that machine to payout 90% across all denoms on the machine, it could be ordered that way. If, however, the casino wishes to change the chip(s) after they are on the casino floor, the Gaming Commission must be present. It's a really big deal in a government regulated casino to change a chip.

I do not know, however, when I'm playing a penny multiline video slot machine (say, Money Storm) whether the payout percentage may be different when I switch from pennies to nickels or whatever.

And Brianzzz will correct me if I have any of that wrong. :D
 

aka23

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RNG is not concerned with how many lines, how many coins, nor their denominations. It is not interacting at all with the program except to feed a number when called for.
In the 'cracking the reels' thread there has been preliminary proof shown that when playing one line on weighted reels it will give a different payout percentage than playing all lines.
I don't think these two quotes contradict one another. Weighted slots producing different payouts for different lines doesn't have anything to do with the RNG. Older MG games have only 1 symbol per reel. Instead of having a true reel in which low paying symbols occur several times on each reel, the reels are weighted such that some of the symbols hit more often than others. If symbol X is weighted such that it often appears on the center line, then the symbol below X should often appear on the bottom line. Given the statements above, it makes sense that different lines of the slot would have different payout percentages.

I suspect that the system above with weighted reels was designed for 3-reel slots with only a single line. Weighted reels works reasonably well for traditional 3-reel slots like this. However, things become more awkward, if the system is extended to 5-reels with many lines.
 

BubbleG

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Earth, man!
In the 'cracking the reels' thread there has been preliminary proof shown that when playing one line on weighted reels it will give a different payout percentage than playing all lines.

This is because on most 3 reel slots the payoff is usually smaller for 1 coin, as with vp you often get a bonus for betting the max and this is added to the JP payoff so the payoff % is lower if you dont bet the max, nothing sinister going on here even though we know the reels are weighted the bet size most likely has no bearing on the game outcome.

I'd rather play a 9+ line 5 reel slot with truly random reels, where the rng simply picks 5 numbers at press of spin from 1 > number of symbols on reel with each symbol having a fixed number position on its reel. Bet size, number of lines etc should have no bearing on the game out come or %payoff.
 

Alexandre

Official Rep for Slotsmillion and Ladylucks
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Jan 17, 2006
Location
Barcelona, Spain
I don't agree when you state that random = fair.
The fact that the slot is random doesn't mean it's fair and vice versa.
A non random slot could be fair.
The only metric of fairness is the payout percent.
With the same payout percent a non random slot is as fair as a random one.
The truth is that you are playing 2 different games and because slots don't involve skills, the fact that the slot is non random won't affect the payout ratio.
The only thing is that you should be informed of is which kind of game you are playing.
Some people, especially in UK and Spain, where non random slots represent the norm, love them because they find them verry much more attractive (we could talk about gameplay here) than the random one.
Remember this topic ?
Sometimes random is boring...
 

KasinoKing

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Opinions will vary...
Here is my definition
  • The RNG feeds the program a number (most programs retrieve this at spin button being 'pushed')

    The Program has a mathematical formula based on longterm payout percentage that will, over time, payback 95% if house edge is 5%

  • I think it is generally accepted that this is how most physical slot & fruit machines work (in the UK).
    (Not too sure about the 'S16' 500 video slots - could be rigged or random...?)

    However, I believe that online slots (i.e. Microgaming) work like this:

    The RNG feeds the program a random number for each reel's position.
    This is then converted into a visual display on your screen.

    The longterm payout percentage is entirely governed by the paytable & the probability of each win hitting.

    KK
 

Zoozie

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A fair 5-reel slot is a non-weighted slot. All reel stop-positions have same probability. There is no deception - is WYSIWUG.


The longterm payout percentage is entirely governed by the paytable & the probability of each win hitting.

KK

Good defintion, but a little more precise:
The longterm payout percentage is entirely governed by the paytable & layout of the reels.
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
Here the type of information we receive per game from playtech.

I can't give you the slotname (Y) as it is a confidential document that can't be disclosed.

Example for slot Y

Payout
92.XX%
Hit frequency (one line)
5.XX%
Hit frequency (X lines)
7X.XX%
Max win (in coins, when betting 10 coins per line)
5 Wilds: 10 x 10,000 = 100,000 coins
Max win (monetary, when betting 10 coins per line)
100,000 x max coin size
Probability of max win
1 in XXX,XXX,726
 

XXLClubCasino

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Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
mmmm very interesting .......

so at XXL...slot Y .....pays XXXXX if we wager X lines at a wager of XXX coins.

Txxxks

Mr XXXXXker

You gave me a real good laugh :thumbsup:

I'm really sorry I can't give out the full numbers.

At least I gave out some numbers that gives the figure back.
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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Jan 18, 2007
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USA
This is because on most 3 reel slots the payoff is usually smaller for 1 coin, as with vp you often get a bonus for betting the max and this is added to the JP payoff so the payoff % is lower if you dont bet the max, nothing sinister going on here even though we know the reels are weighted the bet size most likely has no bearing on the game outcome.

I'd rather play a 9+ line 5 reel slot with truly random reels, where the rng simply picks 5 numbers at press of spin from 1 > number of symbols on reel with each symbol having a fixed number position on its reel. Bet size, number of lines etc should have no bearing on the game out come or %payoff.

Ahhh. thanks. I hadn't considered that. But the increased payout usually only comes at the max lines, not a difference between one line and two. I may have misread the analysis, I'll look back at it.
I would hope that bet size has no bearing on the outcome.
I also would prefer what you said in your last line.
 

lojo

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Jan 18, 2007
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USA
I don't agree when you state that random = fair.
The fact that the slot is random doesn't mean it's fair and vice versa.
A non random slot could be fair.
The only metric of fairness is the payout percent.
With the same payout percent a non random slot is as fair as a random one.
The truth is that you are playing 2 different games and because slots don't involve skills, the fact that the slot is non random won't affect the payout ratio.
The only thing is that you should be informed of is which kind of game you are playing.
Some people, especially in UK and Spain, where non random slots represent the norm, love them because they find them verry much more attractive (we could talk about gameplay here) than the random one.
Remember this topic ?
Sometimes random is boring...

I see your point, Alexandre, but I disagree. All of my research before I started playing slots told me that betsize and lines played did not affect outcome (unless there was a jackpot shown for max lines) and I personally want to play on machines where the rng and program do not communicate except as described.
What you mention in the 'non-random' slots are really amusement with a prize machines, aren't they? I prefer random and wish to be 'informed' of all of a games aspects. Of course I can't devise a 'strategy' to beat them, but I like to know what's going on when I push the button for 'personal' reasons. :)
 

lojo

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Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
This does:


(Wagerworks "Cleopatra")

I think it just about says it all here - why the hell can't MG be so transparent?


I like what it says up to 'correct strategy'... that must be a standard text for all games (including fruities?) and they just edit in the payout percentage?

I don't recall any strategy to get her to say 'twice as nice' but I like it when she does :D
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
Here the type of information we receive per game from playtech.

I can't give you the slotname (Y) as it is a confidential document that can't be disclosed.

Example for slot Y

Payout
92.XX%
Hit frequency (one line)
5.XX%
Hit frequency (X lines)
7X.XX%

Max win (in coins, when betting 10 coins per line)
5 Wilds: 10 x 10,000 = 100,000 coins
Max win (monetary, when betting 10 coins per line)
100,000 x max coin size
Probability of max win
1 in XXX,XXX,726

Thanks... so if I were to play "X" lines rather than one line the hit frequency would go up from 5.xx% to 7x.xx% but the payout percentage would remain 92.xx% over time? Or is the longterm payout different per lines bet? Very important point to me. (not that I can play your software today, but someday I will)

Also, isn't here an extra x in the max win probability? It is over 100,000,000/1:eek:

That seems like it must be a progressive compared to this 'hypothetical' IGT game???

Game Example
• Video Slot
• 5-reel, 15-line
• 3,931,452 symbol combinations trigger a payout
• The game has one second-screen bonus that
frequency by +0.593%
Number of symbols per reel:
• Reel 1 = 45 • Reel 4 = 25
• Reel 2 = 35 • Reel 5 = 45
• Reel 3 = 35
Reel Cycle
45 x 35 x 35 x 25 x 45 = 62,015,625
Top Award Trigger
Five “top award” symbols line up on a payline,
symbols per reel:
• Reel 1 = 1 • Reel 4 = 1
• Reel 2 = 1 • Reel 5 = 2
• Reel 3 = 2
Odds of Hitting the Top Jackpot
The # of jackpot combinations = Reel 1 # of winning
x Reel 2 # of winning symbols x Reel 3 # of winning
x Reel 4 # of winning symbols x Reel 5 # of winning
(1 x 1 x 2 x 1 x 2) = 4 jackpot combinations or hits/
Reel cycle / hits per cycle = 62,015,625 / 4 = 15,503,906
The jackpot should theoretically hit every 15,503,906
Hit Frequency
3,931,452 / 62,015,625 + 0.593% = 6.932% hit
Pulls/Hit
1/ 6.932% = 14.425 games between pays
 
Last edited:

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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USA
One of my favorite B&M slots is Triple Stars -- an old fashioned, boring single line 3 reeler. One of my favorite machines is a mulitdenomination. I can play quarters, fifty cents, $1 by my choice. Slot director would give me no specifics as to payout % (it's top secret you see :rolleyes: ) but would only say the following (and this is as close as I can come to a direct quote):

Most of our slots, when we order them, pay out basically the same percentages across all machines per each denomination.

In B&M casinos, the multidenomination reel slots have a different chip per denomination. If the casino likes 90% payout on quarters, that's in there. If the casino likes 93% payout on fifty cents, it's in there, too. If the casino likes 95% on $1 that's also there. It comes the way the casino ordered it. If they wanted that machine to payout 90% across all denoms on the machine, it could be ordered that way. If, however, the casino wishes to change the chip(s) after they are on the casino floor, the Gaming Commission must be present. It's a really big deal in a government regulated casino to change a chip.

I do not know, however, when I'm playing a penny multiline video slot machine (say, Money Storm) whether the payout percentage may be different when I switch from pennies to nickels or whatever.

And Brianzzz will correct me if I have any of that wrong. :D

I hope he weighs in :thumbsup:

'basically the same percentage' ouch. The gurus at casinocitytimes don't seem to know this as they have for years informed me otherwise.
What I read in the NGC regs (if I understood it properly) was that a multidenominational slot machine can't vary by more than 4.x% with different coin size or number of coins.

They are doing centralized change-outs now as many slots are on a network and controlled from a central server, but they still have to take it out of play for x hours after a chip mod/payout change. SO supposedly it isn't profitable to change the payouts very often.
But I've seen, in the wee hours, whole sections of machines moved out and new ones moved in on Freemont street. It takes less time to physically replace a machine than to wait out the NGC shut-down time.
 

lojo

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Jan 18, 2007
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USA
I don't think these two quotes contradict one another. Weighted slots producing different payouts for different lines doesn't have anything to do with the RNG. Older MG games have only 1 symbol per reel. Instead of having a true reel in which low paying symbols occur several times on each reel, the reels are weighted such that some of the symbols hit more often than others. If symbol X is weighted such that it often appears on the center line, then the symbol below X should often appear on the bottom line. Given the statements above, it makes sense that different lines of the slot would have different payout percentages.

I suspect that the system above with weighted reels was designed for 3-reel slots with only a single line. Weighted reels works reasonably well for traditional 3-reel slots like this. However, things become more awkward, if the system is extended to 5-reels with many lines.

Do I read that to say that line 2 could be more or less lucrative than line one? It would have to be within an 'acceptable' range and average out to be the payout percentage overall? Maybe the claimed percentage is only for bet max lines. So in say, a nevada slot, the worst line couldn't be less than 75%.

I'll have to look at the other thread, I don't recall which five liners were weighted...
 

BubbleG

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Earth, man!
As an old school UK fruity player I can honestly say i'd never play a non random slot again. If the game has to adjust to meet the % then I can think of only one word to describe it, "RIGGED" as every outcome would be predetermined probably long before you hit spin. In my opinion it is the only way a non random slot can meet its target.

Some of the new so called UK random slots actually display the side games used to determine the outcome of the game, often a bingo style board, the reels then display the outcome of the game 4 corners = X, top line = y top 2 lines = z, fullhouse = JP. Anything other than that displays a non winning combination. I believe in he UK it is done like this for tax reasons but personally I dont see what difference it makes if the machine is random and its %payout is derived from the paytable.
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
Thanks... so if I were to play "X" lines rather than one line the hit frequency would go up from 5.xx% to 7x.xx% but the payout percentage would remain 92.xx% over time? Or is the longterm payout different per lines bet? Very important point to me. (not that I can play your software today, but someday I will)

Also, isn't here an extra x in the max win probability? It is over 100,000,000/1:eek:

In this example the X number of lines = 25.

The chance to hit the 5 wild symbols is from 1 to XXX Mio. this will produce the maximum winning of this slot machine.

With regards to the payouts over time it wont be influenced by the number of line played nor by the coin size used neither by the line bet denomination choosen. This is at least what I was told when asking the technical team (with reserve that I understand it right!).
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
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USA
In this example the X number of lines = 25.

The chance to hit the 5 wild symbols is from 1 to XXX Mio. this will produce the maximum winning of this slot machine.

With regards to the payouts over time it wont be influenced by the number of line played nor by the coin size used neither by the line bet denomination choosen. This is at least what I was told when asking the technical team (with reserve that I understand it right!).

I kinda figgered X was 25ish:)

"The chance to hit the 5 wild symbols is from 1 to XXX Mio" so this is really 100 million or more to 1? and it's not a progressive? Sorry if I seem daft and/or if it isn't your area of expertise.. I DO appreciate you participating in this thread, and am very happy to understand that your slots payouts (over time) aren't affected by lines or coins played.
This could simply mean that volatility/variance increases with larger bets on less lines... but it could also mean that the payout percentage is 'averaged' over the several line or betsize choices.

As a single player, I will never pull the handle enough times to fall into the exact EV, so it is important for me to know that my odds are exactly the same with a one penny one line bet this pull, any pull, as for a $5 per line 25 line bet.

The statisticians will (technically correctly) argue that probability does not come to play in the maths (over time) but I have found that it does in most sessions. So, for the slots I play, I'd like to know whether I am in any way increasing or decreasing my chances when I change lines or bet size so I can freely and randomly move between variances and risks,(at a known payout percentage) or conversely choose the optimum combination of lines and coins if some combinations have a higher payout percentage.(bet max reel machines aside)

Again, I can't play your slots right now, but when you get a chance could you confirm that on any given pull betsize and lines chosen do not affect the outcome? Also please fel free to wait a bit so sharper minds can help me clarify this question if it is convoluted and erroneous :D
 
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