Untamed series

[LOOKAWAY]

You'll be pleased to know that you don't lose wilds when you change your bet.

I'm guessing that it's for all 3 untamed slot's, only tried Panda so far.

 

[Balthazar]

You'll be pleased to know that you don't lose wilds when you change your bet.

I'm guessing that it's for all 3 untamed slot's, only tried Panda so far.

That's either a new addition or a bug, because you used to lose your wilds. There's even a warning when you try to change your bet size.

 

[manuels58]

You'll be pleased to know that you don't lose wilds when you change your bet.

I'm guessing that it's for all 3 untamed slot's, only tried Panda so far.

It's definitely a bug or some sort of malfunction, cause I tried Untamed Panda (at 32red) and I immediately lost my wilds when I changed my bet... and I don't believe it's different from casino to casino!

 

[LOOKAWAY]

I played 30 min's before I posted at Golden Lounge. No warning, didn't lose wilds. (Same group as 32 Red)

 

[Balthazar]

Was the fact that this slot has to be compensated ever discussed on this forum?

 

[09237653]

this cant be right, it has always reset them when i tried this (with a warning)
1, grind all wilds at 30p
2, change to 4.50
3, profit?

*edit* actually you're right changing stake on wolf pack on 32red no loss of wilds, bug maybe?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Was the fact that this slot has to be compensated ever discussed on this forum?

I don't recall such a debate taking place.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts though Balth

 

[dunover]

I don't recall such a debate taking place.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts though Balth

Oh we aren't going down this road again. THEY ARE ALL COMPENSATED!!!!

Anyway, the untamed series are, I quote, execrable.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Oh we aren't going down this road again. THEY ARE ALL COMPENSATED!!!!

Sorry old chap but I really don't agree, unless you're talking about all MG slots rather than all slots?

I certainly don't believe NetEnt's slots are compensated in any way, or Jackpot Party's for that matter.

 

[dunover]

Especially MG slots........

 

[09237653]

just tested this properly, it doesnt work

 

[Balthazar]

I don't recall such a debate taking place.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts though Balth

Well it's quite simple: if the slot wasn't compensated it wouldn't remember the previous spins and you'd have an equal chance to win any amount of money on every spin.

Since the slot keeps the wilds in a bank, and you can't change your bet size without losing them, it means that your chances of winning aren't the same on every spin (ie: the more you play, the more you collect wilds, the greater your chance of winning). Therefore, the slot isn't random but compensated.

If it was random, the RTP on each spin would stay the same and changing your bet size would be permitted.

Saying that I'm not a fan of this kind of slot behaviour would be an understatement. Not only it sucks (IMO) to play a compensated slot, but it fuels the conspiracy theorists who believe that all slots "remember" your previous spins.

 

[kktmd]

They have changed this behavior in the Flash version (instant casino)

1. I get the wild reel at 0.30
2. I change to 0.60 - looks like I get to keep my wild
3. When I spin, then wild reel disappears (making me a sad panda)
4. When I return to 0.30, I have my wild reel back

It keeps track of my wilds at different bet settings.

I still believe it changes the RTP to compensate previous wins/losses (but thats just me being paranoid).

 

[KasinoKing]

Well it's quite simple: if the slot wasn't compensated it wouldn't remember the previous spins and you'd have an equal chance to win any amount of money on every spin.

Since the slot keeps the wilds in a bank, and you can't change your bet size without losing them, it means that your chances of winning aren't the same on every spin (ie: the more you play, the more you collect wilds, the greater your chance of winning). Therefore, the slot isn't random but compensated.

If it was random, the RTP on each spin would stay the same and changing your bet size would be permitted.

Saying that I'm not a fan of this kind of slot behaviour would be an understatement. Not only it sucks (IMO) to play a compensated slot, but it fuels the conspiracy theorists who believe that all slots "remember" your previous spins.

Another way of looking at it:
The slot is completely random (not "compensated"), and Microgaming are basically stealing money from players (in the form of RTP) by not saving the wilds for each bet size.
Ever since these slots first came out I thought this aspect was grossly unfair to players.
Maybe MG have realised now that ripping-off players is a pretty dumb thing to do and have started correcting this error... ?

KK

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

Another way of looking at it:
The slot is completely random (not "compensated"), and Microgaming are basically stealing money from players (in the form of RTP) by not saving the wilds for each bet size.
Ever since these slots first came out I thought this aspect was grossly unfair to players.
Maybe MG have realised now that ripping-off players is a pretty dumb thing to do and have started correcting this error... ?

KK

Seems like they have finally realized this yes. As Several playtech slots. Has same if you change coin size then anything saved will go away. But if you return to same coin size then they will be back. So you can switch between coin sizes (bets).
I can't remember different slots to knackered today no sleep and just home from work hehe.
But I think you know what I have mentioned. The slots where you can collect up to 4 symbols and then you get 5 free spins.
Works bout same way

 

[Balthazar]

Another way of looking at it:
The slot is completely random (not "compensated"), and Microgaming are basically stealing money from players (in the form of RTP) by not saving the wilds for each bet size.

I don't see how saving your wilds when you change your bet size makes this slot not compensated. Remember that your wilds are saved but you cannot "use" them with a different bet size.

The reason why it's compensated is because you don't have the same chance of winning every time that you spin. If you've got 3 wilds saved on each reel, your RTP for the next few spins becomes a lot higher than if you have no wild saved at all. In other words, you need to "invest" money into collecting wilds in order to win big.

This isn't pure randomness and this isn't how slots should work.

 

[Tirilej]

The reason why it's compensated is because you don't have the same chance of winning every time that you spin. If you've got 3 wilds saved on each reel, your RTP for the next few spins becomes a lot higher than if you have no wild saved at all. In other words, you need to "invest" money into collecting wilds in order to win big.

That's not really true either. You can play for a really long time with all those wilds and not hit anything.
...or you get four wilds on one wheel at a time that doesn't give anything, and suddenly you have no wilds and no winnings.

If it's paying it's paying, but I have actually never seen the wilds as anything but eyecandy.

 

[Balthazar]

That's not really true either. You can play for a really long time with all those wilds and not hit anything.
...or you get four wilds on one wheel at a time that doesn't give anything, and suddenly you have no wilds and no winnings.

If it's paying it's paying, but I have actually never seen the wilds as anything but eyecandy.

Are you saying that you have the exact same chance of winning on every spin regardless of the wilds in the bank? I once got 4 full wild reels in free money mode at the same time. The win that I got in one spin isn't possible to get unless you've got wild reels, and in order to get wild reels you need to invest into collecting wilds.

Therefore, if you play the slot for the very first time, on your very first spin, you can't possibly get the same win. That's the important part here. That's all you need to know and it's not even open for debate.

God damn I can't believe such an easy concept is so hard to understand.

 

[Tirilej]

Are you saying that you have the exact same chance of winning on every spin regardless of the wilds in the bank? I once got 4 full wild reels in free money mode at the same time. The win that I got in one spin isn't possible to get unless you've got wild reels, and in order to get wild reels you need to invest into collecting wilds.

Therefore, if you play the slot for the very first time, on your very first spin, you can't possibly get the same win.

God damn I can't believe such an easy concept is so hard to understand.

True, but you can get the free spins on your very first spin on the game, so no matter how many wilds you collect you can both win and lose with them. Just the same as you have no clue if you will win small or big if you get the free spins.
I see no difference there.

It's not that I have a hard time understanding things. I maybe just don't see things the way you do

 

[Balthazar]

True, but you can get the free spins on your very first spin on the game, so no matter how many wilds you collect you can both win and lose with them. Just the same as you have no clue if you will win small or big if you get the free spins.
I see no difference there.

It's not that I have a hard time understanding things. I maybe just don't see things the way you do

Ok so if the RNG "decides" that you win 700x stake, and you have no wild in the bank, it will trigger the free spins to give you that 700x stake? KK probably won't like this theory.

The reason why it's not the case with this slot is because wild reels involve many independent paid spins. Say I get lucky and trigger the first 3 or 4 wild reels at the same time, I then get 4 high paid independent spins and each one of them require a return from the RNG. This isn't a "package" of one paid spin like the FS. The RNG have to remember that I have 3 or 4 wild reels triggered from previous spins, so the spin isn't random. I can't win 0.

 

[KasinoKing]

The reason why it's compensated is because you don't have the same chance of winning every time that you spin. If you've got 3 wilds saved on each reel, your RTP for the next few spins becomes a lot higher than if you have no wild saved at all. In other words, you need to "invest" money into collecting wilds in order to win big.

This isn't pure randomness and this isn't how slots should work.

But that's the same on ANY slot where you have to collect things for a bonus.
For example, other MG slots: Scrooge, Tomb Raider 2, Wealth Spa, etc.
On Net Entertainment: Devils Delight, Robin Hood & Relic Raiders.
3Dice: Ching-Ching & Kyoto's Quest.
I'm sure there are more I can't think of right now...

You must remember though, that theoretical long-term RTP is calculated over an infinite number of spins, not just a handful.
Yes it's true that you DO get lower RTP on these games when you first start playing them. I think this must be fairly obvious to all players (if they study the pay-table before they start) and so they can make an informed choice on whether they want to play the slot or not.

It can still be random, even if they don't work the way YOU want them to work.

KK

 

[Tirilej]

Ok so if the RNG "decides" that you win 700x stake, and you have no wild in the bank, it will trigger the free spins to give you that 700x stake? KK probably won't like this theory.

The reason why it's not the case with this slot is because wild reels involve many independent paid spins. Say I get lucky and trigger the first 3 or 4 wild reels at the same time, I then get 4 high paid independent spins and each one of them require a return from the RNG. This isn't a "package" of one paid spin like the FS. The RNG have to remember that I have 3 or 4 wild reels triggered from previous spins, so the spin isn't random. I can't win 0.

If they trigger at the same time yes, but how often does that happen?
It's just as in the free spins, you will get a huge payout or you won't.
To me it's eyecandy and as random as any game, for you it's not.
No need to convince me. I just wanted to tell how I saw it, and I've done that now.

 

[Balthazar]

But that's the same on ANY slot where you have to collect things for a bonus.
For example, other MG slots: Scrooge, Tomb Raider 2, Wealth Spa, etc.
On Net Entertainment: Devils Delight, Robin Hood & Relic Raiders.
3Dice: Ching-Ching & Kyoto's Quest.
I'm sure there are more I can't think of right now...

You must remember though, that theoretical long-term RTP is calculated over an infinite number of spins, not just a handful.
Yes it's true that you DO get lower RTP on these games when you first start playing them. I think this must be fairly obvious to all players (if they study the pay-table before they start) and so they can make an informed choice on whether they want to play the slot or not.

It can still be random, even if they don't work the way YOU want them to work.

KK

KK if the slot requires an investment in order to reach the full RTP it's compensated by definition.

 

[KasinoKing]

Ok so if the RNG "decides" that you win 700x stake, and you have no wild in the bank, it will trigger the free spins to give you that 700x stake? KK probably won't like this theory.

You're right there!
I think that is totally ridiculous, because as you know, I don't believe the majority of online slots work that way.

Hopefully one day we will find out for certain, and one of us can say to the other "I told you so!"

KK

 

[Balthazar]

If they trigger at the same time yes, but how often does that happen?

It only have to happen once.

To me it's eyecandy

MG must be pretty dumb to not allow people to bet higher when they get plenty of wilds in the bank then. They would make a lot of money.

 

[Tirilej]

It only have to happen once.



MG must be pretty dumb to not allow people to bet higher when they get plenty of wilds in the bank then. They would make a lot of money.

We can agree to disagree...again
Just don't try to make me look stupid for having another opinion on it please.

 

[Balthazar]

We can agree to disagree...again
Just don't try to make me look stupid for having another opinion on it please.

You shouldn't take anything personally during debates Tirilej. I apologize for my tone if it was not appropriate.

Note to everyone here: English isn't my first language (I live in the "French-only" part of the country) and my vocabulary is somewhat limited. Sometimes my choice of words isn't the best and I can come across as aggressive or arrogant even if the intent isn't there.

 

[dunover]

But that's the same on ANY slot where you have to collect things for a bonus.
For example, other MG slots: Scrooge, Tomb Raider 2, Wealth Spa, etc.
On Net Entertainment: Devils Delight, Robin Hood & Relic Raiders.
3Dice: Ching-Ching & Kyoto's Quest.
I'm sure there are more I can't think of right now...

You must remember though, that theoretical long-term RTP is calculated over an infinite number of spins, not just a handful.Yes it's true that you DO get lower RTP on these games when you first start playing them. I think this must be fairly obvious to all players (if they study the pay-table before they start) and so they can make an informed choice on whether they want to play the slot or not.

It can still be random, even if they don't work the way YOU want them to work.

KK

Yes, and this line says a great deal. If, by bad fortune for casinos (good for us) the aggregate RTP for a slot was proving excessively generous, there has to be compensatory algorithm in place. Secondly, how can a casino give an RTP on a brand new game which hasn't done a huge amount of spins? It would have been tested, possibly as a clone on another similar program platform already in place for another existing slot. IF a casino can give an RTP for a slot, it has to be either a theoretical one (based on the program) as you state, or a PROVEN one by using data gleaned from previous play, and ongoing therefore I think this is the 'infinite' you mention as it is open-ended. The RTP is fluid in this case. If the actual and theoretical RTP's (over many slots) are extremely close and the slots have been around for a while, it would make most people believe in the compensation theory. Simply because statistically (assuming total randomness) one or two slots would likely have paid a large series of wins and be well over and some well under. This seems seldom the case though.

Another mystery (it has happened to me several times on more than one software) is why, after playing say 30p minimum stake for hundreds of spins, getting bored and treading water that I suddenly whack the stake up to say 3.00 to rid myself of my last 18 quid, and I hit a big win. Happens often on MG. I know I'm not alone, as many winners of the big screenshots often add 'I was playing x and raised my stake to xx, when this beauty rolled in'. Not proof total of compensation, but almost seems like a form of 'forcing' which we know can be done on pub and arcade slots but shouldn't happen on totally 'random' slots. Funny old game.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, and this line says a great deal. If, by bad fortune for casinos (good for us) the aggregate RTP for a slot was proving excessively generous, there has to be compensatory algorithm in place. Secondly, how can a casino give an RTP on a brand new game which hasn't done a huge amount of spins? It would have been tested, possibly as a clone on another similar program platform already in place for another existing slot. IF a casino can give an RTP for a slot, it has to be either a theoretical one (based on the program) as you state, or a PROVEN one by using data gleaned from previous play, and ongoing therefore I think this is the 'infinite' you mention as it is open-ended. The RTP is fluid in this case. If the actual and theoretical RTP's (over many slots) are extremely close and the slots have been around for a while, it would make most people believe in the compensation theory. Simply because statistically (assuming total randomness) one or two slots would likely have paid a large series of wins and be well over and some well under. This seems seldom the case though.

Another mystery (it has happened to me several times on more than one software) is why, after playing say 30p minimum stake for hundreds of spins, getting bored and treading water that I suddenly whack the stake up to say 3.00 to rid myself of my last 18 quid, and I hit a big win. Happens often on MG. I know I'm not alone, as many winners of the big screenshots often add 'I was playing x and raised my stake to xx, when this beauty rolled in'. Not proof total of compensation, but almost seems like a form of 'forcing' which we know can be done on pub and arcade slots but shouldn't happen on totally 'random' slots. Funny old game.

Couple of points here:

1) T-RTP can be calculated perfectly for a slot without one single spin ever having been made on it. Yes any software provider worth their salt would chuck a few million spins through it in test mode before going live, but only to check they hadn't left any bugs or suchlike in there.

2) I still think you're lumping MG slots (where I basically agree with you on the pseudo-random/compensated theory) in with all other slots. MG slots are a unique proposition IMO in terms of how they make RTP.

 

[KasinoKing]

Secondly, how can a casino give an RTP on a brand new game which hasn't done a huge amount of spins? It would have been tested, possibly as a clone on another similar program platform already in place for another existing slot.

The figures given by the casinos are T-RTPs = Theoretical Return To Player, not the actual RTP from anyone playing the slots.
Do you really think slot designers make a slot without having any idea what the RTP is until they spin it a few million times?

If you believe that most (NOT ALL) slots are genuinely random, then the designers can work out the theoretical RTP just from the reel-layout and the paytable by using a program to calculate the return for every single possible combination compared to the cost of how ever many spins that is (usually 10,000,000+ different combinations).

And if you believe the slot is non-random (as in an AWP or "compensated" slot), then the RTP is a figure entered into the software and the results of the spins are controlled to ensure this RTP is achieved long-term.

In either case they don't have to spin the slot for real even once!

KK

 

[Balthazar]

T-RTP can be calculated perfectly for a slot without one single spin ever having been made on it.

The RTP's aren't even calculated, they are set and can be changed. If they were calculated, all the casinos offering the same slots (both land based and online) would give the exact same RTP, which isn't the case.

 

[dunover]

The figures given by the casinos are T-RTPs = Theoretical Return To Player, not the actual RTP from anyone playing the slots.
Do you really think slot designers make a slot without having any idea what the RTP is until they spin it a few million times?

If you believe that most (NOT ALL) slots are genuinely random, then the designers can work out the theoretical RTP just from the reel-layout and the paytable by using a program to calculate the return for every single possible combination compared to the cost of how ever many spins that is (usually 10,000,000+ different combinations).

And if you believe the slot is non-random (as in an AWP or "compensated" slot), then the RTP is a figure entered into the software and the results of the spins are controlled to ensure this RTP is achieved long-term.

In either case they don't have to spin the slot for real even once!

KK

I concede I indeed have done too much MG play and it has clouded my vision possibly..


Do you really think slot designers make a slot without having any idea what the RTP is until they spin it a few million times?

Not at all, I did mention THEORETICAL RTP if you check, although out of context sorry about that one....and yes, a program is fixed so it's unnecessary (usually) to run it as it can only perform, glitches aside, to its parameters. I think the core program is similar for most slots, with code changed in certain places if you have different amounts of freespins between slots, or multipliers. TSII and IR I believe are an example, where tweaks were made to the TSII code via inserting some bigger wins, reducing the frequency of others (leaving the RTP similar but changing the variance) and chucking some new graphics videos in to attach to the rng outcomes and removing obviously the TSII graphics. The online equivalent of a cloned pub fruit machine.

What I will insist though (no, I'm not a pro programmer but I know enough to see this) is that it is completely unnecessary to have 5 rng's 1 for each reel and work the possibilities and outcomes/weights out like that to make an RTP/slot as desired. (Like the revered Wizard of Slots theorizes on his site.)
The exact same result can be achieved (as I'm 99% sure they are at MG) by simply selecting 1 rn and attaching a videographic to that value from a computed library of reel possibilities for that specific win. I will confidently say that MG use pseudo reels and I think it likely that the others do too.

PS. The MG 'feature' (f-up) of mousing over your balance on downloaded MG casinos to see the outcome of the spin before the reels have even stopped appears to have been addressed, since I started harping on about it a few months back. They have obviously been made aware of it, and out of embarrassment have edited it out. Their bad IMO. All it did was by-pass the need for reels and show the slots and programs for exactly what they are - electronic ball-pickers that select a value while a B-S video follows for your 'entertainment' lol..........