Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006

[AussieDave]

NETELLER US Member Update: 1st October 2006

To protect its customers money, all deposited, in-transit, and un-cleared funds are held in Trust Accounts.

Hypothetically if a wire transfer was sent from Country A to Country B (Neteller)

But had to pass thru an intermediary Bank in Country C (USA), could this bank refuse to forward these funds on?

Could it also choose to confiscate these funds?

Just some food for thought.

 

[Lord_Have_Mercy]

Online gaming in crisis over U.S. ban

Online gaming firms faced their biggest-ever crisis on Monday after U.S. Congress passed legislation to end Internet gaming there, threatening jobs and wiping 3.5 billion pounds ($6.5 billion) off share prices.

Britain's PartyGaming Plc , operator of leading Internet poker site PartyPoker.com, and rivals Sportingbet and 888 Plc said they would likely pull out of the United States, their biggest source of revenue, and warned on future profits.

"This development is a significant setback for our company, our shareholders, our players and our industry," PartyGaming Chief Executive Mitch Garber said.



The House of Representatives and Senate unexpectedly approved a bill early on Saturday that would make it illegal for banks and credit-card companies to make payments to online gambling sites.

The measure was sent to President George W. Bush to sign into law, which most analysts see as a certainty.

"We believe that this will have a very material impact on the long-term prospects of online gambling, and in particular poker," said analyst Julian Easthope at UBS. "This will lead to a rapid decline in the use of online poker sites."

PartyGaming generates about 78 percent of its revenue from the United States, while Sportingbet gets about 62 percent there.

Shares in PartyGaming, which rakes in nearly $4 million a day from its 19 million customers, fell 58 percent by 0905 GMT.

Sportingbet, which owns sportsbook.com and ParadisePoker.com, lost 58 percent, 888 was down 35 percent and Austria's bwin.com fell 16 percent.

CRACKDOWN

Online gaming exploded in 2005 with a string of high-profile company flotations in London, which has become the industry's corporate center.

The bulk of revenue has always come from the United States, but operators were located in offshore jurisdictions like Costa Rica and Antigua due to fears of prosecution in the United States, where gaming and betting laws had been ambiguous.

Shares in Sportingbet and BETonSPORTS have been hammered recently after senior executives were arrested on charges of illegal gambling in individual U.S. states.

Meanwhile, big American gaming corporations like Las Vegas-based Harrah's Entertainment Inc. (HET) were forced to sit on the sidelines as gaming money streamed out of the country.

PartyGaming said in a statement, "If the President signs the act into law, the company will suspend all real money gaming business with U.S. residents."

"Any such suspension would also result in the group's financial performance falling significantly short of consensus forecasts for 2006 and 2007," it added.

Sportingbet said a ban would hit trading, and said it had scrapped a planned merger with World Gaming as a result.

888 Plc said the move would hit its results, as did gaming software provider Playtech , whose shares fell 51 percent.

But analyst Paul Leyland at Arbuthnot Securities said Playtech was relatively well positioned. "The only company for which you could categorically say that redeployment is easy is Playtech," he said. "But for the others it's much more difficult."

Any ban would also hit payment processors like Neteller Plc and Optimal Group's (OPMR) FireOne subsidiary.

Neteller Plc said the legislation would have a "material adverse effect" on its U.S.-facing business, and its shares also more than halved in value.

 

[paul02085]

Last i heard Party stock was down almost 60%. The sky has fallen.

 

[Westland Bowl]

All I can say is ..." It's darkest before the dawn ". Many people were in fear of the Y2K computer meltdown but it turned out to be just a pfffft of fear smoke. I believe the same in this scenario.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Meanwhile, big American gaming corporations like Las Vegas-based Harrah's Entertainment Inc. (HET) were forced to sit on the sidelines as gaming money streamed out of the country.

So Las Vegas and other land-based casinos think that online gamblers would have gone to their casinos if it were not for online casinos??? Oh please!!! The travel and expense to go to land casinos is not worth it, unless maybe you count cards real well and/or live near them.

Where on earth can you find a casino that will have a minimum bet of $1???? All land-based casinos have at the lowest a minimum bet of $5 and only at off-hours of the night. Most have $10 or higher minimum bet limit.

Another thing....I wouldn't have considered going to a land casino if it were not for online casinos. Because of various strategies that I've learned in the online world, I would like to try them on "real" cards....someday.

I wonder just how much business Las Vegas, et al. are getting BECAUSE of online casinos? Because of the accessibility of online casinos, land-based casinos would have not seen any of it anyway!

 

[The Dude]

I wonder just how much business Las Vegas, et al. are getting BECAUSE of online casinos? Because of the accessibility of online casinos, land-based casinos would have not seen any of it anyway!

Excellent point. Before I got involved in this industry, I just went to Vegas for the buffets!

 

[The Dude]

Say goodbye to Crypto:

Say goodbye to Crypto:

CryptoLogic said Monday it will not take wagers from U.S.-based players in response to the new legislation, which is expected to be signed Monday by the president. The company said it has spent five years shifting revenue sources to Europe and "is positioned for long-term profitability."

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[Westland Bowl]

This article is posted on the Drudge Report. It is so one-sided, it's unbelievable! Once again, the mantra is repeated ...."online betting is illegal". Of course, they confuse the reader in that they don't mention that sports-betting online is illegal, not casino-type games.

Old / Expired Link

These Congressmen have to be the biggest hypocrites there are! To go up on a "moral" stand against online gambling while doing such sneaky tactics to get this online gambling provision into law without debate or consideration of opponents views reveals the Godlessness of these people. Foley was the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Simmo!]

Say goodbye to Crypto:

CryptoLogic said Monday it will not take wagers from U.S.-based players in response to the new legislation

So that's Intercasino gone to the US then Crypto are a publically listed company...all PLC's will follow this course I believe....they need to to stop their shares falling from investors who haven't got a clue what this all means. One of the problems with going public - your decisions can be controlled by people who don't understand your business sector.

 

[The Dude]

...they need to to stop their shares falling from investors who haven't got a clue what this all means. One of the problems with going public - your decisions can be controlled by people who don't understand your business sector.

Yep - that's how I'm seeing it. But it's throwing the baby out with the bath water. It pretty ironic - damn frustrating since US players are getting doubly screwed by people who don't understand this industry at all.

 

[Pinababy69]

Well, damn it Janet!!! I just typed a long ass post, hit reply and got the web page unavailable error.

I'd be interested to see an accurate representation of geographic market breakdown by software provider. I have a feeling that most online operators thought this day may come, and have prepared themselves to (at least temporarily) lose their US customer base. I really believe that eventually the US Government will "see the light" and lean towards regulation and taxation, as opposed to prohibition. Let's all hope it's sooner rather than later.

I can't remember which thread or poster, but someone brought up Larry Flynt. It struck a chord with me because I had the same thought. You don't have to like him, or his business, but you have to admire him for standing up against the Justice system for what he believed was right (and IMO, what WAS right). I thought his magazine was a total rag, but he had every right to publish it. The online gaming industry could use someone like him, someone with enough money and power of their own who isn't afraid to suffer the consequences of their actions. Someone with enough recognition to make people aware of this whole situation. I'd lay money (ha ha) that a large majority of the US population aren't even aware of what's gone on in the last couple of days. And I'd even go so far as to say that a large percentage of non-gamblers may be outraged at the Government's attempts to take away yet one more freedom, in a land that trumpets itself as the "Land of The Free".

I was also curious if any of the US posters here at CM have considered contacting their local radio or tv stations, or maybe local newspapers? Or starting a petition and then doing the above? A small part of the battle may just be getting the word out in regards to what's happening. If I were a US citizen, I'd be doing something, anything.....to try and make my voice heard. Sometimes big things get accomplished with small steps.

 

[prizewagon]

I was also curious if any of the US posters here at CM have considered contacting their local radio or tv stations, or maybe local newspapers? Or starting a petition and then doing the above? A small part of the battle may just be getting the word out in regards to what's happening. If I were a US citizen, I'd be doing something, anything.....to try and make my voice heard. Sometimes big things get accomplished with small steps.

Hi, I am not really new to this forum as I have lurked here for literally years.

I have always valued the Casino Meister's insight, and diligence in his role as a player advocate.

I have personally met him (Vancouver at an affiliate conference) and he's a stand up guy. (that has NOTHING to do with the fact that we both served in Germany, have a penchant for good beer...and it's Octoberfest time too dammit!)

Having worked for a online casino software provider from 2000-2005 precluded me from ever posting here though and frankly given who that provider was, no way was I gonna set foot in here and have everyone here go all Lord of the Flies on me.

For the record though, I was only the webmaster.


Folks that haven't seen this coming haven't seen the signs.

The online gaming industry has been BEGGING for legitimacy and regulation for years but to no avail....you can blame that not happening, in part, on US land-based concerns.

Read the bill and you'll understand.

I feel for all my former coworkers, freinds, and aquaintences that this will affect....this is gonna be tough. Hell, I have a hundred gambling related domains that I am going to have to redo. Buh-bye CPA deals. See ya affiliate checks....sniff.

On a lighter note though the situation bodes well for us here at prizewagon.com. Last year when we started putting together this no download, no deposit, cash prize, texas hold'em site folks just didn't get it.

Our keyword buys just dropped 30% in price now that the ".net" sites have quit barking up the free poker tree.

 

[Flizzin]

If any of my U.S. brothers and sisters need a Canadian Intermidiary to "manage" a few transactions for them in light of the new handcuffs, i'd be happy to help

 

[Rollo]

Good God

I go to sleep for 8 hours and it seems like half the industry has bailed out... I really was expecting a bit more fortitide.

What does Microgaming have to say? If they go wobbly, then it is totally over... it looks like Playtech is nervous. So Bush is expected to sign this thing today? Wow, I never would have expected things to happen so fast.

I guess instead of asking who's out... we should start asking, what casinos, sportbooks, and poker rooms are still in.

It looks like Sportingbet and Paradise Poker are not resigned to bailing... yet. Pokerstars is out.

I gusss Casinomeister Deutsch and BOC Guide Español will be in the offing...

 

[silcnlayc]

I was also curious if any of the US posters here at CM have considered contacting their local radio or tv stations, or maybe local newspapers?

I have been writing to the news media locally and CNN, Reuters, governors, senators, even the president...for a long time now and just finished posting on some blogs about the idiocy of this new law...

I am curious as to why the online gaming industry and the Americans, and England (due to the stock market) is just "lying down" and "taking" it without a fight...?? this is unreal..it isn't a law until it's signed and it can be removed (voided) if enough people, pressure comes around.

Why hasn't the holders of gaming stock come forward to fight this?? I am amazed and truly shocked at the lack of action from all the groups this effects..

There can be no change if no one wants it badly enough and it seems that this is holding true for everyone involved.... we are going down like lambs to a slaughter without even a whimper...geezes..

 

[Flizzin]

Old / Expired Link

CNN Article

 

[Pinababy69]

Exellent post Silc!!! And right on the money (see my post in the petition thread).

Honestly, I wish I could help you...Christ, if I lived in the States, I'd lead a friggin march down Pennsylvania Avenue, lol. At least you can say that you did something....besides whine that is.

 

[Westland Bowl]

I think I'll move to Windsor, Ontario, Canada

 

[venetian]

This is all so unreal, I'm very depressed over it. I wrote to Firepay to see what they are going to do. This is their reply;

On 30 September 2006, the United States Congress passed the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006.

The Act, upon becoming law, will prohibit gambling businesses from accepting any financial instrument in connection with unlawful Internet gambling.

The Act will become law upon its approval by the President of the United States, which the Company expects will occur in the immediate near term.

The Act does not define "unlawful Internet gambling" nor does it make unlawful any activities by financial institutions that are not themselves gambling businesses.

The Act directs the United States Federal Reserve and the Department of the Treasury to develop regulations that would direct financial institutions to identify and block certain types of financial transactions connected with unlawful Internet gambling.

The enactment of the Act will have a significant negative impact on the business and results of operations of the Company.

The Companys Board is evaluating the situation and will provide an update when appropriate.


Regards,

Anthony
Risk Management
FirePay Personal Accounts

 

[mgibson99]

Is anyone else sitting on the sideline for now?

Should all U.S. internet gamblers hold off on making future deposits until this gets sorted out? I know that Bush is not supposed to sign the law for another 2 weeks or so, and even then it could take weeks or months before we see any action on the part of the casinos or the e-wallets, but I just don't want to get stuck with money in the bank or money in a casino. Is anyone else sitting on the sideline to see how this pans out?

I am a big deposit player (usually deposit $25-$50k per month), so I am especially concerned.

 

[Pinababy69]

Well Venetian, I can't say that Firepay's reply impresses me too much. They don't make it sound very promising. But as many have mentioned, give it some time.....ways around this will be found.

 

[Westland Bowl]

For all the bluster that has and is still going on, there are still quite a few casinos offering bonuses and specials on the Casinomeister home page!

 

[Simmo!]

My take is that it's all about the PLC thing at the moment. When you go PLC you effectively put yourself at the mercy of people (investors) who may not fully understand your industry and are really only interested in their money and as little risk as possible.

Any gambling related company that is PLC or ruled by a PLC probably has no choice in this matter. They will feel they have to pull out simply because they are answerable to investors who, without detailed knowledge of the sector, will pull their risk at the first hint of trouble thus rendering the PLC worthless. And when you are worthless you are dead. The PLC casinos are probably as likely to go out of business if they DO continue to accept US players. That's why you will probably see all the "PLC's" issue the same statement if they haven't already.

BUT when things are clearer, you can bet your last dollar that they will all have left their options open to come back,but in the meantime having minimised risk to their shareprice which is what these press releases are all about. It's how business works.

 

[venetian]

Well Venetian, I can't say that Firepay's reply impresses me too much. They don't make it sound very promising. But as many have mentioned, give it some time.....ways around this will be found.

I have a decision to make, and their reply didn't really tell me what to do. I have a few hundred dollars in my account and am wondering if I should hang in there or just send it to my bank and wait. Although it looks like we won't have anywhere to deposit it after this week, so maybe my decision has been made for me. I read the Drudge and CNN articals and this looks like another 'save the children' from their stupid ass selves bill. Or that's part of the spin. If college kids are going to gamble then they will learn just like the rest of us in the beginning...there are consequences to our financial decisions. But what I do or a 21 year old does with OUR money should remain OUR decision.

 

[prizewagon]

As a US resident, I am going to be pulling my affiliate links from all my websites--(not that I was making bank or anything)

Conversion rates are crappy enough as it is and with 70%-80% of those conversions being attributed to US residents, the business model is now abgefickt. (f'ed up )

 

[dominique]

Old / Expired Link

 

[Rollo]

A good running account of the devistation from Bloomberg:

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[Rollo]

Attention Webmasters and Affiliates

Did anyone take note of this little bit from the above article cited by dominique?

"The greatest danger here would seem to be with affiliates. Any American operator can be easily grabbed. This includes sites that dont directly take bets, but do refer visitors to gaming sites. If the affiliate is paid for those referrals by receiving a share of the money wagered or lost, it would not be difficult to charge the affiliate with violating this law, under the theory of aiding and abetting. Being a knowing accomplice and sharing in the proceeds of a crime make the aider and abettor guilty of the crime itself. The federal government could also charge the affiliate with conspiracy to violate this new Act."

Now that is scary! If that's the case, add bocguide.com to the out list.

 

[Tailgun]

Dark Clouds Are Gathering

Well, I've been depressed over this since this morning. I was really enjoying gaming online and it looks like I got into it way too late. My gambling career is over before it had a chance to begin.

I've gone past rage and disgust over this political leadership. I have only myself to blame for voting Republican the last 12 years. I voted for Bush twice and supported conservatives because I believed they were the lesser of two evils.

At least they would be fiscally conservative, I thought, and hold the Religious Right at arm's length, the way Reagan did. Instead, Republicans delivered budget-busting deficits due to wanton entitlement program expansion, pushed 'Creationism' in schools and now this. I'm feeling pretty damn stupid.

As a registered Libertarian I found the Marxist ideology of the Left in America greatly threatening. The idea of Democrats being back in control, especially during a time of armed conflict against international terror groups, left me gravely concerned.

Now I just don't give a fuck; burn this country to the ground and start over.

 

[Simmo!]

Old / Expired Link

Essential reading. Thanks Dom.

What's interesting is the definition of gambling as "a game subject to chance". I wonder if that will be exploited at some stage.

 

[paul02085]

Well, I've been depressed over this since this morning. I was really enjoying gaming online and it looks like I got into it way too late. My gambling career is over before it had a chance to begin.

I've gone past rage and disgust over this political leadership. I have only myself to blame for voting Republican the last 12 years. I voted for Bush twice and supported conservatives because I believed they were the lesser of two evils.

At least they would be fiscally conservative, I thought, and hold the Religious Right at arm's length, the way Reagan did. Instead, Republicans delivered budget-busting deficits due to wanton entitlement program expansion, pushed 'Creationism' in schools and now this. I'm feeling pretty damn stupid.

As a registered Libertarian I found the Marxist ideology of the Left in America greatly threatening. The idea of Democrats being back in control, especially during a time of armed conflict against international terror groups, left me gravely concerned.

Now I just don't give a fuck; burn this country to the ground and start over.

My only method of revenge is to refuse to vote in elections from now thru the next presidential election in 08 since i refuse to vote for democrats. This is way worse and quick than i thought it would be.

 

[Tailgun]

My only method of revenge is to refuse to vote in elections from now thru the next presidential election in 08 since i refuse to vote for democrats. This is way worse and quick than i thought it would be.

I agree Paul. Or I'll at least go back to voting for my fellow Libertarians across the board again, regardless of their winning prospects.

I know my last post might have seemed over the top, I've just been feeling terribly disheartened by one bad thing after another...

 

[paul02085]

I agree Paul. Or I'll at least go back to voting for my fellow Libertarians across the board again, regardless of their winning prospects.

I know my last post might have seemed over the top, I've just been feeling terribly disheartened by one bad thing after another...

I feel your pain man.

 

[Slotster!]

I'm just impressed the US Govt appear to work on Saturdays!?? Nutters.

Bad bad news otherwise though... Let's tell everyone what they can and can't do, especially when it impacts on money that's leaving the country instead of filling our own tax coffers. Diabolical.

 

[Rollo]

Interesting - Checks likely exempt

Banks await regulations on US Internet betting ban
Mon Oct 2, 2006 6:12 PM ET



By Peter Kaplan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The costs of policing a new U.S. Internet gambling ban for banks and credit card companies will be determined by regulators in the coming months, industry officials said on Monday.

Government officials are expected to propose a "coding-and-blocking" system that will identify and stop payment to online gambling sites, experts said. Many banks and credit card companies already voluntarily block Internet gambling transactions using such a system.

The Treasury Department and Federal Reserve Board have nine months to draft regulations after the new law, included in a package of port security measures passed by Congress on Friday and expected to be signed into law by President George W. Bush.

U.S. banks and credit card companies are optimistic that officials will prepare a workable system.

"If the Treasury (department) and Fed can come up with reasonable rules here, it shouldn't be that bad," said Oliver Ireland, a lawyer who works with several financial services payment providers, including Visa.

"The way they built (the new law), it gives us a chance to work with the regulators in a constructive way to come up with a system," said Greg Mesack, director of government relations for industry trade group America's Community Bankers.

British-based gaming companies such as Sportingbet, PartyGaming Plc and 888 Holdings Plc said on Monday they would likely pull out of the U.S. market, their biggest source of revenue, and their stocks plunged.

Some banking industry officials had worried that the new law would make them responsible for blocking payments by check as well as credit card payments, a requirement they had said would be unworkable.

But those concerns were allayed when lawmakers agreed to a provision allowing the Treasury and the Fed to exempt checks from the requirement.

Experts said the system would not be fool-proof, but would bar the vast majority of bettors.

"I suspect some smart enterprising person out there will find a way to (get around) it. But for your average person who wants to get out there and bet on college football, you're not going to do it," said one lobbyist.

Ireland agreed. "I think this puts in place a broader blocking system that's going to be harder to get past for the Internet (gambling) sites," he said.

 

[amatrine]

Re

Oh good. So hopefully the banks will not refuse to cash a check a least.

Still what about ACH tansfers? I already get them blocked at some places and have had problems recieving money, So now they will probably all be blocked. Agg

Ama

 

[Rollo]

Anurag Dikshit

Another good read from Bloomberg:

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I never even knew who founded PartyGaming to tell you the truth. Looks like the big cheese is 33 year old billionaire

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and one

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.

I sugest everyone email Mr. Dikshit and Mrs. Parasol and give them a piece of your mind.

 

[Westland Bowl]

About a year ago, I believe there was a Rothschild family that sold their interest in an online gambling website for billions of dollars. I bet they knew it eventually would hit the fan....if not prepared the **** for fan throwing.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Found this on another forum:

"Gambling over the Internet is for people who possess no moral compass!" -- Rep Mark Foley

 

[spearmaster]

Found this on another forum:

"Gambling over the Internet is for people who possess no moral compass!" -- Rep Mark Foley

LMFAO! Looks like his moral compass just got demagnetized as well...

I sugest everyone email Mr. Dikshit and Mrs. Parasol and give them a piece of your mind.

Now wait a minute... what in the world give you the idea that these two have anything to do with what happened? Dikshit is a programmer, and Parasol a marketer. They sustained severe losses after this legislation passed Congress. You think they're happy about what is happening?

 

[Rollo]

Why don't they try to defend the industry then? Why the silence and inaction? They benefited more than anyone. Sorry, I don't feel sorry for them, they went from billionaires to mere multi-millionaires. How they must be suffering.

All the gaming employees, poker players, webmasters, etc. that gave years making them billionaires are the ones who are going to do the real suffering. I find their (and that of all the other bigwigs) lack of action/take the money and run attitude selfish. When you're the leader of an industry that a lot of people depend on for a living, you have some responsibility to people other than yourself. That's the way I feel about it anyway. But I guess everyone has their own perspective.

I didn't expect anything from the religious-right, but I did expect to see some action on behalf of the industry leaders in the defense of the industry more than weakly worded statements to stock holders about profitablity of their narrow interests. Where's their public otrage over this moral hypocracy?

If I were a billionaire online casino magnate, I'd be doing the TV rounds and attacking the shit out of Frist, Kyl, Goodlatte et al, doing opposition research and hitting them hard in the media if they so much as jaywalked in a previous life, I'd be getting involved in turning this into an international trade dispute making a case against this illegal protectionism, I'd be demanding an explanation in the US media about why online horse racing, state lotteries, and brink and mortar casinos get a pass. I'd start a major lobbying effort as well as issue advocacy groups. I'd let the folks behind this know that I have money and this is going to cost them plenty. But the big timers just ran away instead. There's a lot more you can do with millions of dollars than spending it on posh living, parties and hookers.

 

[spearmaster]

Why don't they try to defend the industry then? Why the silence and inaction? They benefited more than anyone. Sorry, I don't feel sorry for them, they went from billionaires to mere multi-millionaires. How they must be suffering.

Neither of those two people have been outspoken in the past - in fact, reclusive might be a better description.

It's only the second working day after the legislation has been passed - but keep in mind it is still not law yet.

We should instead be targeting our ire at the incompetent lawmakers, plus the media who are not doing their homework properly.

All the gaming employees, poker players, webmasters, etc. that gave years making them billionaires are the ones who are going to do the real suffering. I find their (and that of all the other bigwigs) lack of action/take the money and run attitude selfish. When you're the leader of an industry that a lot of people depend on for a living, you have some responsibility to people other than yourself. That's the way I feel about it anyway. But I guess everyone has their own perspective.

Again, you're jumping the gun. They are hardly leaders in the industry - they just happen to own large parts of one of the biggest players. They have a CEO, Mitch Garber, who oversees the operation, and he has already come out and spoken on Party's behalf.

I didn't expect anything from the religious-right, but I did expect to see some action on behalf of the industry leaders in the defense of the industry more than weakly worded statements to stock holders about profitablity of their narrow interests. Where's their public otrage over this moral hypocracy?

There is/was a lobby - in fact, a few of them - who actively tried to show the government that the online gambling industry was legitimate and would be happy to pay taxes.

Some of them, unfortunately, got arrested - like David Carruthers. It should be no surprise that prominent owners or players in the industry are a bit thin-lipped about the most recent developments.

If I were a billionaire online casino magnate, I'd be doing the TV rounds and attacking the shit out of Frist, Kyl, Goodlatte et al, doing opposition research and hitting them hard in the media if they so much as jaywalked in a previous life, I'd be getting involved in turning this into an international trade dispute making a case against this illegal protectionism, I'd be demanding an explanation in the US media about why online horse racing, state lotteries, and brink and mortar casinos get a pass. I'd start a major lobbying effort as well as issue advocacy groups. I'd let the folks behind this know that I have money and this is going to cost them plenty. But the big timers just ran away instead. There's a lot more you can do with millions of dollars than spending it on posh living, parties and hookers.

Not that any of us are arguing with you - but I think you don't quite have the whole picture - and for sure, no one is running away, at the moment all anyone can do is protect their interests, especially where they are responsible to other shareholders.

Once they have done that, I'm sure you will see renewed efforts to right the wrongs that have been done by this legislation.

 

[silcnlayc]

Why the silence and inaction

This is what I find puzzling also...the total lack of action..response...anything??!!!!

 

[RobWin]

Why don't they try to defend the industry then? Why the silence and inaction? They benefited more than anyone. Sorry, I don't feel sorry for them, they went from billionaires to mere multi-millionaires. How they must be suffering.

All the gaming employees, poker players, webmasters, etc. that gave years making them billionaires are the ones who are going to do the real suffering. I find their (and that of all the other bigwigs) lack of action/take the money and run attitude selfish. When you're the leader of an industry that a lot of people depend on for a living, you have some responsibility to people other than yourself. That's the way I feel about it anyway. But I guess everyone has their own perspective.

I didn't expect anything from the religious-right, but I did expect to see some action on behalf of the industry leaders in the defense of the industry more than weakly worded statements to stock holders about profitablity of their narrow interests. Where's their public otrage over this moral hypocracy?

If I were a billionaire online casino magnate, I'd be doing the TV rounds and attacking the shit out of Frist, Kyl, Goodlatte et al, doing opposition research and hitting them hard in the media if they so much as jaywalked in a previous life, I'd be getting involved in turning this into an international trade dispute making a case against this illegal protectionism, I'd be demanding an explanation in the US media about why online horse racing, state lotteries, and brink and mortar casinos get a pass. I'd start a major lobbying effort as well as issue advocacy groups. I'd let the folks behind this know that I have money and this is going to cost them plenty. But the big timers just ran away instead. There's a lot more you can do with millions of dollars than spending it on posh living, parties and hookers.

Great post Rollo, I totally agree with your sentiments regarding the owners of all these operations....they could have and probably still could make a difference if only they would come together with advocates and stand up and fight this damn crazy ass legislation...

There is always Power in Numbers and Dollars !!

 

[spearmaster]

Let me make a more realistic example out of this.

You are the owner of a house. Your house is on fire.

Do you spend your time fighting the fire and putting it out first, or do you let it burn and instead attack the builders, firefighters, suppliers, and God for letting this happen to you - in the process letting the rest of your house be consumed by fire until there is nothing left but ashes?

 

[Rollo]

Well, I really don't mean to single these two people out for special abuse, I mentioned them mainly becuase I had no idea who owned PartyGaming and thought every one else would find it interesting. I find Bodog's president a million times more irritating but the point is that these very wealthy folks who are the main players in the industry have a lot of resources and really needed to get off their collective ass but didn't. Still, I'd like to see players now presuring them into somthing resembling action. Everyone can't just let Antigua to do their fighting for them.

PartyGaming is the biggest of the big boys so I'd say they owe quite a bit to American players and webmasters. Hell, Americans built Partygaming. A concerted effort could have prevented this, but I strongly suspect that it's too late now. It's easy to block legislation, it's hard to enact it, and its damn near impossible to get it reapealed.

I undertand their reasons for running and hiding but I can't help finding it really disappointing. I think the spinelessness and/or rather self-serving descion making on the part of industry leaders shouldn't be allowed to pass without due criticism.

Truth be told, I'd actually really like to see a major casino or poker exec arrested so this law can put to the test. As it is, Frist will have won the war without having had to fire a single shot. A mass surrender.

Spearmaster, I grant you that it is still early, but look what's happened so far... I never would have guessed that all these people, most with no real need to ever set foot in America and subject themselves to jail, would send up the white flag this fast. Had 888 and PartyGaming decided to fight, the others would likely have stood strong but now I think a dynamic is in place that will peal companies away one after the other until we're left with the sort of guys who begin their conversations with "Pssst, hey buddy..."

Anyway, I guess it's time to for me to get into some Tequila.

 

[spearmaster]

Still, I'd like to see players now presuring them into somthing resembling action. Everyone can't just let Antigua to do their fighting for them.

Definitely not. But again, there's another problem - most of the owners or operators are NOT Americans - and there's only so much they can do to get the government to wake up.

Instead, it's left primarily to the lobbyists, AND the people, to tell their representatives in Congress exactly what they think. The lobbyists have been active but not as active as I personally would have liked - and the people have spoken out on numerous occasions only to see their efforts thwarted by political wrangling.

The first thing you can do is make sure you cast your vote in the next election. Don't return the representatives that have let you down in this instance.

The next - is to use every channel at your disposal - whether that be your representatives mailbox, fax or phone, your local TV or radio news channel, and even your banks - not to blame them but to give them the ammo they need to stand up to this crazy legislation.

Finally, show them that their legislation is for naught - by using LEGAL channels - for the time being including Neteller - to continue to participate in what you should rightfully be given complete freedom to participate in.

PartyGaming is the biggest of the big boys so I'd say they owe quite a bit to American players and webmasters. Hell, Americans built Partygaming. A concerted effort could have prevented this, but I strongly suspect that it's too late now. It's easy to block legislation, it's hard to enact it, and its damn near impossible to get it reapealed.

Again, I think you are missing the whole picture. The whole industry has been behind a lot of movement. Concerted efforts were made - many attempts at blocking legislation were successful. This one slipped by because your representative in Congress was too spineless to stand up to what he felt was right - this was literally an "I'll scratch your back, you scratch my back" effort.

I undertand their reasons for running and hiding but I can't help finding it really disappointing. I think the spinelessness and/or rather self-serving descion making on the part of industry leaders shouldn't be allowed to pass without due criticism.

Again, they're not running and hiding. They're trying to put out the fire first.

Truth be told, I'd actually really like to see a major casino or poker exec arrested so this law can put to the test. As it is, Frist will have won the war without having had to fire a single shot. A mass surrender.

David Carruthers is already unwittingly serving this role on behalf of the online gambling industry. We don't need another example made of another major company to show that this legislation will cause untold harm to people outside the industry as operators start to go underground.

Spearmaster, I grant you that it is still early, but look what's happened so far... I never would have guessed that all these people, most with no real need to ever set foot in America and subject themselves to jail, would send up the white flag this fast. Had 888 and PartyGaming decided to fight, the others would likely have stood strong but now I think a dynamic is in place that will peal companies away one after the other until we're left with the sort of guys who begin their conversations with "Pssst, hey buddy..."

These two are public companies responsible to their shareholders first and foremost. If you were talking about a private company, then I might actually agree - but no public company can take up this fight at the expense of their shareholders if they want to stay in business.

 

[Rollo]

Ok, Spear, if I can call you that, one more and then I'm outtie...

I feel at this point we're wasting words on these folks, but I'll say that I repsectfully disagree.

Foriengers can make just as big an impact as an American, they're banning foreign gambling not foreign speech. The US is an open society as far as media spending and influence buying goes. I'm not sure I agree on the pubilcally traded front either... The major shareholders can encourage the CEO to take any stance they wanted. Just look at the deserved schlacking the Google founders took over censorship in China. Google's a publically traded company but we all know who calls the shots.

Anyway, I'll just say that IMHO, what you mention isn't what I would call a major effort and from where I'm sitting it sure looks like a lot of running and hiding. In one day, the major players have folded or signaled their intention to fold. Most of this is pretty subjective, but I do have to say that Caruthers doesn't serve as a test case in any way becuase he is alleged to have breached the Wire Act which is a different bit of law than the one we're discussing in this thread.

Anyway, I really don't want to sink this thread on this tangent as we're getting a bit off topic, but I'd like to say that I'm not 100% sure I agree that I'm the one missing the big picture here, Congress did stand up for what they believe in - and that's stopping online gambling. This thing passed the house overwhelmingly and the only reason it stalled in the Senate was becuase a couple Senators put a secret hold on it most likely to protect state horse racing insterests.

This fight is about protecting principles of freedom, fairness and the rights of US gamblers from the whims of Congress as they try to cater to what they think, I think mistakingly, are the attitides of the majority (not to mention a whole bunch of special interests who actually understood how to work the Congress).

Anyway, in today's America this flight will take a heap of money and some real leadership neither of which as far as I can see will be forthcoming. And that's a shame. I would have liked to see a real fight.

I hope all that didn't sound too bad, I know I'm not worthy :notworthy

 

[spearmaster]

Ok, Spear, if I can call you that, one more and then I'm outtie...

As long as whatever you call me doesn't start with "B" or "A" or "F", I'm sure we'll get along just fine

Foriengers can make just as big an impact as an American, they're banning foreign gambling not foreign speech.

The whole issue here is that foreigners do not have the right to elect American representatives of Congress - and furthermore American lawmakers are even less likely to listen to non-Americans (as if they listen to anyone anyhow!)

The US is an open society as far as media spending and influence buying goes. I'm not sure I agree on the pubilcally traded front either... The major shareholders can encourage the CEO to take any stance they wanted. Just look at the deserved schlacking the Google founders took over censorship in China. Google's a publically traded company but we all know who calls the shots.

We're not at that stage yet. Keep in mind that it's only been one business day since the legislation was passed. First you put out the fire. Then you talk with the other owners and decide what to do next. Otherwise, the house burns down and then there's no need to discuss what to do next - since there's nothing left.

Anyway, I'll just say that IMHO, what you mention isn't what I would call a major effort and from where I'm sitting it sure looks like a lot of running and hiding. In one day, the major players have folded or signaled their intention to fold.

The key word both 888 and Party used was "suspension". Their statements also include words similar to "until such time as we have a clearer picture of how this legislation will impact our business".

Most of this is pretty subjective, but I do have to say that Caruthers doesn't serve as a test case in any way becuase he is alleged to have breached the Wire Act which is a different bit of law than the one we're discussing in this thread.

For all intents and purposes, the reason Carruthers was arrested is because they don't want online gambling or sportsbetting. Had there been a push instead to regulate/legalize online gambling or sportsbetting, it's highly unlikely that they would have made an example out of Carruthers for the reason of breaching the Wire Act.

Anyway, I really don't want to sink this thread on this tangent as we're getting a bit off topic, but I'd like to say that I'm not 100% sure I agree that I'm the one missing the big picture here, Congress did stand up for what they believe in - and that's stopping online gambling. This thing passed the house overwhelmingly and the only reason it stalled in the Senate was becuase a couple Senators put a secret hold on it most likely to protect state horse racing insterests.

They didn't want to stop online gambling because they wanted to protect the morals of the citizens of America - if this were so they would have banned pornography.

They didn't want to stop online gambling because of alleged money laundering or funding of terrorism - that's about as lousy an excuse as any because they have not once produced any evidence.

They fought online gambling because they needed a star to hang their hats on, and undoubtedly because they had backers that wanted to protect other interests.

In this aspect I will agree - had some strong online gambling interests thrown around a few million dollars, it's entirely possible this might never have come to pass.

This fight is about protecting principles of freedom, fairness and the rights of US gamblers from the whims of Congress as they try to cater to what they think, I think mistakingly, are the attitides of the majority (not to mention a whole bunch of special interests who actually understood how to work the Congress).

Agreed.

 

[greedygirl]

Rollo is not far off track, however, focusing on only a couple of major players is unrealistic.

The fact of the matter is that there has been no COLLECTIVE effort made by the industry. Sure, most of the big guys have been dropping money into assorted lobbyists pockets, however, this has continued to be mostly ineffective. The one time a lobbyist WAS effective, it was of all people, Abramoff. We all know that his success was crucial to the direction we now find ourselves in.

It seems incomprehensible that an industry worth billions, which shells out literally hundreds of millions in marketing dollars, did not have a collective plan to bring the questionable US status to the public forefront and moreover, create a united front to challenge the US stance.

For example...

When California Indian tribes wanted to bring casino gaming into the state, a very public campaign was waged. It was waged via multiple snail mail information packs, newspaper, billboard and television advertising and they enlisted the aid of the biggest PR companies available. Solid facts were presented...opposing views were presented. Without this sort of plan, most Californians would not even have been aware of the issue and Indian gaming would not have made it onto the state's soil.

Rather than earmarking marketing funds towards new players, it would seem to have been a wiser move to split off 30% towards a US campaign to prevent the ignorance and apathy we're now mired in.

We were all shocked when David Carruthers was arrested and it was a stunning moment for this industry. What is most disturbing about this is how Carruthers was unable to make bail. In terms of this industry and salaries, a one million dollar bail (essentially $100,000 up front with property as bond) would not seem to be something difficult to pull together. It was stunning to see Carruthers sit in jail for nine days before he was able to comply with the bail requirements. I just cannot understand why the industry did not rally behind Carruthers, showing a united front, and not only pay the bail, but pledge to pay all of his legal defense fees. Instead, Carruthers has been essentially "fed to the lions," and is now something of a parriah.

Over the past few days, I've spoken with several operators and I've asked why there has been no collective efforts. EVERY single one of those I've asked have had the same response...

"We need to take the road of caution and we cannot afford to have our names out there."

Each time, my response is the same...

"Why? It's not as if you'd be coming to the US now, anyhow. What is there to lose at this point?"

And in each case, I'm still waiting for that answer.

It's time for the industry to band together in a big way...and bring along the big bucks. We can no longer hope that Antigua or people like Michael Corfman will fight these battles on their own. This is an industry issue and must be addressed BY the industry.