UK Conservative Party Leadership Election

Good chance Scottish labour, if the SNP keep it up and the Westminster Politicians just 'let it ride' (as opposed to Lord Frost's comments), could squeeze 25 seats from them - the upcoming Rutherglen By-Election will be a test. If Labour just win it, the SNP will be laughing - if they batter the 5k majority by 15k or more then Useless Yousaf will be sweating.
 
Sturgeon arrested by Scottish Police. It seems whichever party is in power they all develop inertia after too long, Tories here and SNP in Scotland. Fair play, she's still managed to smile and keep a positive face:

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Suppose, in a weird way, she has achieved her independence

Yousaf is on the charm offensive saying they'd do a deal with Labour but the 'price' being, er, you know....adding they'd make 'life difficult' for them if they didn't want to play ball: way to win the hearts and minds of those south of Hadrians wall :laugh:

Kinda sums the SNP up at the moment; spitting their dummy out, threatening to block legislation just for the hell of it (inspired by the DUP? :-p)
 
So the report is out now and it's an absolute excoriation of Johnson, and speaks without mercy to the low, low character of the man.

Remember, this was a committee with a Tory majority. Its recommendation would have gone to a House of Commons with a Tory majority, who would have had to vote on its recommendations, and if they had approved them, Johnson would have had to go to a by-election in a constituency with a solid Tory majority, and he still chose to bravely run away, whilst trying to take down the whole democratic UK parliamentary process with him whilst screaming like a toddler about how unfair it all is.

Those bloody democratically elected politicians in London eh!

If you want a brief rundown of the brutal takedown this Tory dominated committee performed on Johnson, here's a decent round-up.

I've been saying for years here on the CM that the man is a liar, a charlatan and a fraud, and that he would be a disaster for the UK as its Prime Minister. And here we are, the words chicken and roost come to mind.

If you want a decent pointer as to why Brexit is such an unmitigated disaster, remember this despicable man was its main cheerleader and the guy on whose watch the disastrous 'oven ready deal' was foisted upon the UK.

 
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Was he not a bit light with the truth over the Govt involvement in the Saudi takeover of Newcastle? Never know, but doubt we'll see a Phoenix resurgence next year - his own Party is fed up with him along with the public i think (and Partygate in general), though GB News appear to have a strong fetish for him so he could follow on from Rees-Mogg ;)
 
It's slightly hard to know what to make of this work of (literal!) high fantasy from Lord David 'Rubbish At Everything' Frost. It is a work of fiction set five years in the future when Sunak has won the general election in 2024 and then gone on to look like winning again triumphantly in 2028/2029. (I wish I was making this up.)

On one level this is understandable given that Brexit is widely accepted as having been an utter failure in both the past and present, and no one really expects it to get any better in the near future, so making up a fairy story set half a decade in the future does at least have the benefit of no one being able to debunk it because it's, y'know, literally a children's bedtime story.

And should 2028 arrive and Frosty's dream hasn't come true (spoiler alert - it won't have), he can say 'Ahhh but you didn't do all the things I wrote about it my story, that's why it's gone wrong'.

He's paid hundreds of thousands of pounds per year to come up with this shite.

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Rolex- wearing Education Secretary Gillian Keegan caught in somewhat of a hot mic storm, as she denounces the failings of those that served before her, in regards to the 'schools concrete' safety concerns.

Seeking that much-needed validation off-camera, we get to see her sneer "Does anyone ever say ""you know what, you've done a f***ing good job because everyone else has just sat on their arse and done nothing?""
No, I'm afraid not. And unfortunately for her, nor do most of the potential electorate. It may well be the 'fault' of previous leaderships and even governments, but with one scandal after another and everything falling to ruin, one does have to wonder as to the Tories' lack of accountability.

Because come the next Election, I highly doubt the excuses and lack of oversight will cut it anymore, with Labour laughing all the way to the bank, as the only question posed to voters will be to stay on a sinking ship, or go to a nearby plague-ridden ship that's on fire. Lord have mercy ?

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I could take some pleasure in the self-immolation of the Tory Party if they weren't taking the country down with them. We've got a useless zombie government, lurching forward, doing nothing of any note, as the UK withers on the vine. As the old saying goes, 'all political careers end in failure' - but it'd be nice if the consequences of the failure of this appalling Conservative non-government weren't so dire for the UK.

Like so much of what was cut to the bone by the ideologically driven destruction of the austerity years, eventually, the chickens will come home to roost. Or in this case - the schools will fall down.
 
Blimey Chopley, based on what you posted directly above me, one could surmise that you are still not ⬇️

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I'm not particularly enamoured with Starmer's Labour either, although I'd take them over the Tories.

Sunak isn't a terrible human being in the way that Johnson is, and he isn't batshit crazy like Truss is. By all accounts he's a diligent sort of chap and gets involved in the detail of his job, I fundamentally disagree with his politics but I don't think he's a bad person. Unfortunately for him he's inherited a toxic shit-tip of a government, and an economy that's holed below the waterline with the ongoing drag of Brexit.

Speaking of Truss, one year ago today!

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I'm not particularly enamoured with Starmer's Labour either, although I'd take them over the Tories.

Sunak isn't a terrible human being in the way that Johnson is, and he isn't batshit crazy like Truss is. By all accounts he's a diligent sort of chap and gets involved in the detail of his job, I fundamentally disagree with his politics but I don't think he's a bad person. Unfortunately for him he's inherited a toxic shit-tip of a government, and an economy that's holed below the waterline with the ongoing drag of Brexit.

Speaking of Truss, one year ago today!

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And yet wasn't she against austerity to fix things?

Clearly she wasn't prime minister material but then is Angela Rayner, lab's shadow deputy pm, a laughable situation she's that close to the top job.

It will be interesting to see what labour do differently, whether they can resolve things like the immigration crisis that is costing us tens of millions each day in hotel bills, grow the economy, tackle crime etc...they'll certainly have more energy than the tories, who do now look spent.

And as Starmer is being advised by blair, no doubt a digital ID policy will appear at some point, and more compliant bending over for the EU for nothing in return.
 
When Labour inevitably get in, I wouldn't go around holding out hope for any improvements, if we're to be realistic.

I think we could have a mild stab in the dark as to how they'd deal with the immigration crisis: they'd simply return to Labour of old by allowing everyone in!

Doing so would ensure a short-term boost to the economy (adding more unskilled workers into the mix, not that Labour would care about that, or train them up) whilst also having a ready-made voting base for any future General Elections!

Labour will portray themselves as the heroic saviours of the underprivileged, whilst doing nothing useful in real terms to aid their plight. Because using these people for their political gain is quite simply what they do.

We'll see rampant borrowing and overspending initially and call that 'investing in the people', yet the eventual yields will result in nonsensical authoritarianism like with Sadiq Khan's London, or Councils run into the ground financially, a la Birmingham......to go with the litany of Labour- led boroughs that have become unworkable.

Handling of crime cannot possibly get any worse, so that's one area that ought to be improved. But is it already too late? Labour's wanting to add the likes of misgendering someone into Hate laws, I expect police being weighed down further by bloated and vague guidelines, instead of being able to effectively do their job. Expect 'feelings' to take top billing as stabbings, murders and other serious crimes are to be allocated even less resources :thumbsup:

War-weary though the public may be from the Conservatives' lack of vision and resolve on anything, pretty much lost at sea at this point, I'd be careful what I wished for. Those not aware of previous Labour Governments may be all too unfamiliar with British politics, but those that have seen it in action know all too well where it'll lead the country.....and it often 'isn't great'......especially with Blair imposing himself upon the current Labour lot!

Because let's be honest, it'd take a massive leap of faith to entrust this country to a windowlicker like Starmer and actually believe he'll improve our fortunes ?
 
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This country the UK has gone to shite. Im only here still because of a family member who needs a lot of support at the moment and I need a solid base. But when that resolves we are out of here. Italy or Spain or Norway is the 3 we choosing from. I spend more time in Denmark these days due to needing to be in that country for family reasons - and whilst it far from perfect they do not have lethargy and broken systems we have now in the UK. The NHS wont be fixed by a new goverment is but one prime example. The NHS needs doing away with and a new system where private options are built in (as in Italy where you can book a paid for Drs appointment or scan through watsapp for a few 100 euros or less and beat all waiting times ) it wont happen though. It matters not if its labour or con ... the same shit and slow collapse of this once great nation will continue.
 
I thought the shiteshow of Labour 1974-79 would be the nadir of UK politics but I was wrong. 2022-2024 will surely be worse. This shower of SHITE are useless, inept, just staying on as long a possible to collect another year of salary and pension before they get booted out for a decade at least. Unelected PM, useless home secretary and the biggest invasion of hostiles since 45BC has been allowed to happen. That's some record, the worst protection of our borders for two millennia. At least Harald fought off one invasion in 1066 by the Norwegians before rushing down to Kent and just failing to ward off another, of fewer numbers than Sunak and Braverwoman have allowed to invade.

Churchill, WWII - invaders (aside from downed Luftwaffe pilots) 1 (Rudolf Hess) in 6 years.

Sunak, invaders from the EU so far, 35,000 and counting in 1 year.

And as Goaty says, the most depressing thing is these clowns will be replaced by a man greyer than John Major in a Tayside fog at midnight, called Starman or something and his sidekick Angela (f^7king c*%"ing) Rayner. Clowns replaced by comedians. It's hopeless.

I feel an SNP-Tory coalition coming.

Both of them have so much in common:

They've fucked their respective health sysyems up.
Corrupt PPE and corrupt ferry contracts.
They both suffer from inertia after winning too many elections too easily.
In both cases a strong leader with a huge majority (Sturge & Jonno) imploded their party by personal misconduct & scandal.
Both have been replaced with south Asian midgets with the personality of an empty Amazon box.
In both cases the lunatics have taken over the asylum. (if fact an even worse embarrassment for Scots in a way, as it's taken the lunatics in London to override idiotic trans toilet legislation by the lunatics in Holyrood!)
They are both going to get hammered by Labour, not because they are any good or competent, but simply because they are NOT SNP or Tories.

I could weep. In 2019 I just could not imagine the UK would turn into such a shitshow after Sunak's plotting.
 
When Labour inevitably get in, I wouldn't go around holding out hope for any improvements, if we're to be realistic.

I think we could have a mild stab in the dark as to how they'd deal with the immigration crisis: they'd simply return to Labour of old by allowing everyone in!

Doing so would ensure a short-term boost to the economy (adding more unskilled workers into the mix, not that Labour would care about that, or train them up) whilst also having a ready-made voting base for any future General Elections!

Labour will portray themselves as the heroic saviours of the underprivileged, whilst doing nothing useful in real terms to aid their plight. Because using these people for their political gain is quite simply what they do.

We'll see rampant borrowing and overspending initially and call that 'investing in the people', yet the eventual yields will result in nonsensical authoritarianism like with Sadiq Khan's London, or Councils run into the ground financially, a la Birmingham......to go with the litany of Labour- led boroughs that have become unworkable.

Handling of crime cannot possibly get any worse, so that's one area that ought to be improved. But is it already too late? Labour's wanting to add the likes of misgendering someone into Hate laws, I expect police being weighed down further by bloated and vague guidelines, instead of being able to effectively do their job. Expect 'feelings' to take top billing as stabbings, murders and other serious crimes are to be allocated even less resources :thumbsup:

War-weary though the public may be from the Conservatives' lack of vision and resolve on anything, pretty much lost at sea at this point, I'd be careful what I wished for. Those not aware of previous Labour Governments may be all too unfamiliar with British politics, but those that have seen it in action know all too well where it'll lead the country.....and it often 'isn't great'......especially with Blair imposing himself upon the current Labour lot!

Because let's be honest, it'd take a massive leap of faith to entrust this country to a windowlicker like Starmer and actually believe he'll improve our fortunes ?

The thing is Mr Goatwack, a lot of the old tropes such as 'rampant borrowing and overspending' (especially when presented as a 'Labour threat') don't hold much water when the UK's national debt looks like this.... (And yeah I know, Covid and Ukraine, but Labour had the global banking crisis, shit happens to governments, it's literally their job to deal with it.)

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Starmer's Labour aren't exactly inspirational, and neither is Starmer himself, but they'll most likely win handsomely just by virtue of not being the bloody Tories - who are now widely seen as a spent force, tarnished by scandal and corruption, a tanking economy, a weak pound, high interest rates, a botched Brexit, a failing NHS, savaged public services, and total failure even on their own, limited, nasty terms - 'stop the boats' etc.

Starmer may be many things, but stupid is not one of them - he knows he'll have five years and he has to deliver something tangible in that time. Assuming Labour get in with a working majority, the first big trade renegotiation with the EU comes round in 2025, if he's really got his smarts about him he'll use that to get the UK back in the EU Single Market and Customs Union (obviously calling it something else to keep the loonies at bay) and immediately reap the massive economic rewards (4-6% of GDP) to see him into a second term.

Brexit has done for the Tories, which is what happens when you start out with a terrible idea, absolutely lie your arse off about it, employ a charlatan chancer (Johnson) to 'deliver' it, and then sit around blaming everyone else for it all turning to shit. I mean, the British public aren't stupid, they can see that the Tories have fucked it all up, and having a government just stand there with its hands in its pockets saying 'Not me guv'nor' isn't really a winning strategy. (Especially when you've been in power for thirteen years.)

I'm reminded of that scene in Aliens where Ripley takes the wheel off Gorman, his incompetence having got a large number of his crew killed, and Ripley has had enough, so she pushes him contemptuously to one side, grabs the wheel, and says, 'You had your chance Gorman'.

That's where the UK is now with the Tories.
 
psml if Trump wins in 2024 and starmer has to do some sucking up and special relationship PR with donald, that will really play well with labour's legions of woketards! :laugh:

That chinese curse proverb 'may you live in interesting times' is inevitable for whoever wins...well odds on it must be starmer, I wonder what the bookies are offering on a straight bet rather than spread betting the size of victory.

The last thing he should do is get back under the EU's control and dictate, they're not about handing us wads of money. Any trade deal will apply a straight jacket to our flexibility with non EU trade, due to our history that is one of our strengths still.

I think there's definitely less noise coming from the EU these days, people like verhofstadt seem marginalised, at the end of the day no one likes unaccountable government, which is what the EU represents at its core.
 
The thing is Mr Goatwack, a lot of the old tropes such as 'rampant borrowing and overspending' (especially when presented as a 'Labour threat') don't hold much water when the UK's national debt looks like this.... (And yeah I know, Covid and Ukraine, but Labour had the global banking crisis, shit happens to governments, it's literally their job to deal with it.)

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Starmer's Labour aren't exactly inspirational, and neither is Starmer himself, but they'll most likely win handsomely just by virtue of not being the bloody Tories - who are now widely seen as a spent force, tarnished by scandal and corruption, a tanking economy, a weak pound, high interest rates, a botched Brexit, a failing NHS, savaged public services, and total failure even on their own, limited, nasty terms - 'stop the boats' etc.

Starmer may be many things, but stupid is not one of them - he knows he'll have five years and he has to deliver something tangible in that time. Assuming Labour get in with a working majority, the first big trade renegotiation with the EU comes round in 2025, if he's really got his smarts about him he'll use that to get the UK back in the EU Single Market and Customs Union (obviously calling it something else to keep the loonies at bay) and immediately reap the massive economic rewards (4-6% of GDP) to see him into a second term.

Brexit has done for the Tories, which is what happens when you start out with a terrible idea, absolutely lie your arse off about it, employ a charlatan chancer (Johnson) to 'deliver' it, and then sit around blaming everyone else for it all turning to shit. I mean, the British public aren't stupid, they can see that the Tories have fucked it all up, and having a government just stand there with its hands in its pockets saying 'Not me guv'nor' isn't really a winning strategy. (Especially when you've been in power for thirteen years.)

I'm reminded of that scene in Aliens where Ripley takes the wheel off Gorman, his incompetence having got a large number of his crew killed, and Ripley has had enough, so she pushes him contemptuously to one side, grabs the wheel, and says, 'You had your chance Gorman'.

That's where the UK is now with the Tories.
So happens I rewatched the original trilogy just the other day (everything post-OT isn't even remotely canon in my books) and yes, Aliens still takes it by a wide margin!

Notwithstanding they all have memorable set pieces, but the whole marines segment prior to Gorman's state of shock is stunning, and a valid example :laugh:

Used to like Alien 3, but in retrospection it's really quite bad, bar Charles Dance and Charles Dutton.

Further to that, one could say the country's effectively cocooned and waiting for the inevitable, with just the faintest hope someone's going to prise them from the politician's crusty slime prism. Still, never say never :p
 
So happens I rewatched the original trilogy just the other day (everything post-OT isn't even remotely canon in my books) and yes, Aliens still takes it by a wide margin!

Notwithstanding they all have memorable set pieces, but the whole marines segment prior to Gorman's state of shock is stunning, and a valid example :laugh:

Used to like Alien 3, but in retrospection it's really quite bad, bar Charles Dance and Charles Dutton.

Further to that, one could say the country's effectively cocooned and waiting for the inevitable, with just the faintest hope someone's going to prise them from the politician's crusty slime prism. Still, never say never :p

Aliens is one of those films I can watch again and again, the original is a classic of course, and Alien 3 is, considering the development hell it went through, not terrible, but for my money, Aliens is the best of the trilogy by far. (I have watched some of the other Alien films over the years, and some of them are OK, but those three are the 'real' trilogy in my book.)

I remember back when Sky TV was shiny and new in the UK (1989), I was living with my mum and her new husband at the time, they had Sky TV in their house, I would watch Aliens repeatedly when it was on :D To this day I can cheerfully sit down and watch it, knowing every single line in the whole thing. It holds up really well too, because it was all done with practical effects, rather than shite CGI which sticks out like a sore thumb.

Anyhoo, back to politics (I suppose we should really), nice to see Liz Truss apparently campaigning on behalf of the Labour Party today.....

(Oh yes, the extended edition of Aliens is worth a watch if you get chance to see it, whilst not being 'essential' in perhaps the same way that the proper version of Bladerunner is, for example.)

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We have all this debt yet try to book an appt to see a GP. At least when the govt splashed the cash in the 70s and 80s to ward off recessions and prevent shops closing/ease the economic cycle, it kinda worked. There was even things like an NHS dentist, now you need to stump up £ thousands for work on gnashers.

By the end of New Labour's time in power, the GP waiting time target was 48 hours, and that was consistently achieved in most of the UK. They chucked a lot of money at it, but it worked. (Along with a load of other measures.)

There's a very good read about it here -
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The Tories have recently been talking about two weeks as a target (i.e. that's not even where we're at now), but then they choose not to spend money on the little people, because that's not what they're for. Make no mistake, the Tories have hosed a lot of money down the drain (as witnessed by the national debt), but they haven't spent it on you.

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By the end of New Labour's time in power, the GP waiting time target was 48 hours, and that was consistently achieved in most of the UK. They chucked a lot of money at it, but it worked. (Along with a load of other measures.)

There's a very good read about it here -
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The Tories have recently been talking about two weeks as a target (i.e. that's not even where we're at now), but then they choose not to spend money on the little people, because that's not what they're for. Make no mistake, the Tories have hosed a lot of money down the drain (as witnessed by the national debt), but they haven't spent it on you.

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I do remember a period under new labour where NHS services became a bit more responsive. But the system also still had a lot of old school GPs with experience and dare I say a higher level of intelligence, in my practice they've all retired.

Education and society in general has been dumbed down, plus equality hires to counter discrimination, we will feel the effect when engaging the services of health [and other] professionals. Add to that they're overwhelmed.

The tories [or this batch] have flushed down the loo their party's reputation for efficient use of govt funds and general fiscal responsibility. Mark Carney was blaming Truss recently, she was only PM for a few weeks, compared to his 7 yrs as bank of england gov, ridiculous spin but will make sense to glancing headline readers.
 
Talking about GP's in my experience they are like buses. I went nigh on five years without being able to see one, always get palmed off onto a nurse practitioner or the such like. But, in the space of the last two weeks, I have seen two separate GP's.

Alas they wouldn't allow me to take a selfie with them both, to corroborate said fact, but it did happen!! :)
 
With Tory support in the polls tanking worse than the Hindenburg, it will come as absolutely no surprise that their green plans have been, erm, 'delayed' for a full term.

It's amazing how aware they become of the general public's apathy with a General Election nigh?

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Heat Pumps - which, oddly come with a caveat of 'have an alternative heating source' :). They are shocking - you'd be better off with an oodie.

Why not make changes to the planning regulations and insist all new builds are installed with them, like now, if so concerned? Might it because the House Builders have said No to such a suggestion: surely not :)

The polling's quite interesting on Net Zero - something like only 16 or so % think the Govt is overreacting with such policies but then, when people are being asked to fund it, nearly half oppose it.

Unless i've missed something, what does changing any date mean anything? Surely car manufacturers can still go fully electric (we'll just have to have wet dreams over remembering diesel torque) if they wish: will be reversed next year anyway.
 
I think Starmer has said he'll reinstate the original dates, showing like the london mayor and the welsh minister the labour knack for being out of touch with popular opinion - even more than the tories if that's possible.

A competition between who can choose the right date to make us poorer and colder in order to save the planet from climate change.

I did read a while back of a place in scandi land where a huge heat pump powers/heats a whole town or industrial zone, that would seem a more logical way than individual heat pumps outside each home - how would this work for towerblocks or 4 storey apartments for example?

But there is far more money to be made selling consumer units along with the annual servicing, repairs required etc..
 
I think Starmer has said he'll reinstate the original dates, showing like the london mayor and the welsh minister the labour knack for being out of touch with popular opinion - even more than the tories if that's possible.

Here's some polling that was conducted before Sunak rowed back on the UK's current (fairly modest) Net Zero commitments. (So Sunak's move would have been unpopular with a majority of Tory voters, let alone the other parties.)

'Popular opinion' isn't the same as 'what mack thinks' :)

He's also really pissed off car manufacturers too, they work 7-10 years into the future when it comes to their factories/tooling/tech choices etc so they were already spending big on 2030. They are not happy about the switch to 2035.

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Here's some polling that was conducted before Sunak rowed back on the UK's current (fairly modest) Net Zero commitments. (So Sunak's move would have been unpopular with a majority of Tory voters, let alone the other parties.)

'Popular opinion' isn't the same as 'what mack thinks' :)

He's also really pissed off car manufacturers too, they work 7-10 years into the future when it comes to their factories/tooling/tech choices etc so they were already spending big on 2030. They are not happy about the switch to 2035.

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Yes, but not if it's going to cost 'me' then it swings into opposition.
 
Have Jaguar not committed to phasing their new cars out by 2025 anyway? Electric cars are probably a stop gap until the roll out of hydrogen fuelled ones, anyhow.

To be fair, he's just aligning the UK with the EU ?

It is a shame to see the debate on Climate becoming increasingly politicised and polarised (certainly over the last 5 years) but it was always going to be when you have local authorities, small ones, being quoted 300m to upgrade their housing stock and this position where policy announcements are made and people are just expected to suck it up.

Even Labour/Reeves had the wisdom to row back/water down on their 28 billion Green Pledge because a money tree doesn't have 100 dollar bill leaves.

Can't see how any of this is expected to help them in the elections - doubt it will, though the Ulez damaged Labour in the recent-ish by elections, so who knows.
 
Here's some polling that was conducted before Sunak rowed back on the UK's current (fairly modest) Net Zero commitments. (So Sunak's move would have been unpopular with a majority of Tory voters, let alone the other parties.)

'Popular opinion' isn't the same as 'what mack thinks' :)

He's also really pissed off car manufacturers too, they work 7-10 years into the future when it comes to their factories/tooling/tech choices etc so they were already spending big on 2030. They are not happy about the switch to 2035.

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"Our funders in the UK include John Ellerman Foundation, Unbound Philantrophy, Barrow Cadbury Trust, Luminate, the Open Society Foundation, and the European Climate Foundation"

Strange how polls have a habit of reflecting the views of those that fund them.

There is nothing stopping people ripping out their gas boiler now or trading in their petrol car - if they've got the money, most though are struggling to pay energy and food bills.
 
Yes, but not if it's going to cost 'me' then it swings into opposition.

On that I agree, telling people they're going to be poorer in the middle of a cost of living crisis, during a period of high inflation and interest rates, spiralling food prices etc - to fit in with a green agenda is a very tough sell and a stupid way of doing it, and is probably the best way to turn folks against it.

I also have my own misgivings about the way it's being done, whilst still being entirely supportive of a transition to Net Zero, and having no doubt that climate change is a real and present danger.

(Long winded personal anecdote follows.)

For example I drive an old ICE car, it'll be 19 years old next year but since it completely refuses to break in any way whatsoever - (it's a Lexus, the Japanese Mercedes as Alan Partridge would say :D In reality a Toyota of course, but that's fine since Toyota make the most reliable cars in the world) - I'm loathed to consign it to the scrap heap. (It was my cheap 'Covid car' when I went to WFH, I was always intending to replace it when I went back to the office full time (which I have been for 18 months now), but I've grown rather fond of it so decided to keep it.)

Anyway, point is, it's a an old car that paid its primary debt to the planet when it was built back in 2005, but because it's ICE with a biggish engine (3 litre petrol), I'm taxed to fuck on it, this year twelve months road tax cost me £467. Apparently this is supposed to encourage me to switch to an EV, but what it's actually making me do is resent the bollocks out of them.

There are loads of incredibly expensive brand new tank-like hybrid/electric SUVs over here, I saw a BMW one parked up on the prom the other day (in a specially designated space where us dirty ICE folks aren't allowed) and wondered how much it cost. I checked the reg on the IOMG website, and one Google search later found its base price (assuming no options) is...... £120,000. You could invade a bloody country with a few of these things, the cost of materials (and cost to the planet!) to build one will be eye-watering, a small modern EV this is not.

And the cost to tax this brand new £120K behemoth for a year? £65.

Now of course one doesn't need to spend £120K on an EV, some of the older Nissan Leafs are now down in the £5K-£6K range, but these were the lower range capacity ones to start with, and now with many years on them have degraded battery packs and a pitiful range, especially in inclement weather. And then of course you need somewhere to park and charge them, which not everyone has. (And nor does everyone have thousands of pounds knocking around to spend on a 'cheap' EV, when they might still have a dependable old ICE car that's still working fine.)

The point of this rambling is that even from this limited exposure to the 'green transition', it's irritated me (without causing any actual financial hardship, I can well imagine how it'll play with people who are already borderline when it comes their finances) because it's all stick and no carrot, and is being used as a tax dodge by those with loads of money, who'd be spending £100K+ on a new car anyway, but can now get a tax perk in the process - and I'm hit with a large car tax bill because apparently my old car is responsible for killing the planet. (And we already pay loads of tax on fuel, as opposed to EVs which apparently run on magically generated electricity, or in the case of hybrids, have a battery range of about 300 yards and still have a petrol engine anyway, but regardless get the tax dodge bonus.)

Short version is the transition to a greener future, whilst being essential IMO, has to be done in a way that doesn't clobber average folks who are already feeling the pinch, as that way lies resentment and ultimately, failure.
 
On that I agree, telling people they're going to be poorer in the middle of a cost of living crisis, during a period of high inflation and interest rates, spiralling food prices etc - to fit in with a green agenda is a very tough sell and a stupid way of doing it, and is probably the best way to turn folks against it.

I also have my own misgivings about the way it's being done, whilst still being entirely supportive of a transition to Net Zero, and having no doubt that climate change is a real and present danger.

(Long winded personal anecdote follows.)

For example I drive an old ICE car, it'll be 19 years old next year but since it completely refuses to break in any way whatsoever - (it's a Lexus, the Japanese Mercedes as Alan Partridge would say :D In reality a Toyota of course, but that's fine since Toyota make the most reliable cars in the world) - I'm loathed to consign it to the scrap heap. (It was my cheap 'Covid car' when I went to WFH, I was always intending to replace it when I went back to the office full time (which I have been for 18 months now), but I've grown rather fond of it so decided to keep it.)

Anyway, point is, it's a an old car that paid its primary debt to the planet when it was built back in 2005, but because it's ICE with a biggish engine (3 litre petrol), I'm taxed to fuck on it, this year twelve months road tax cost me £467. Apparently this is supposed to encourage me to switch to an EV, but what it's actually making me do is resent the bollocks out of them.

There are loads of incredibly expensive brand new tank-like hybrid/electric SUVs over here, I saw a BMW one parked up on the prom the other day (in a specially designated space where us dirty ICE folks aren't allowed) and wondered how much it cost. I checked the reg on the IOMG website, and one Google search later found its base price (assuming no options) is...... £120,000. You could invade a bloody country with a few of these things, the cost of materials (and cost to the planet!) to build one will be eye-watering, a small modern EV this is not.

And the cost to tax this brand new £120K behemoth for a year? £65.

Now of course one doesn't need to spend £120K on an EV, some of the older Nissan Leafs are now down in the £5K-£6K range, but these were the lower range capacity ones to start with, and now with many years on them have degraded battery packs and a pitiful range, especially in inclement weather. And then of course you need somewhere to park and charge them, which not everyone has. (And nor does everyone have thousands of pounds knocking around to spend on a 'cheap' EV, when they might still have a dependable old ICE car that's still working fine.)

The point of this rambling is that even from this limited exposure to the 'green transition', it's irritated me (without causing any actual financial hardship, I can well imagine how it'll play with people who are already borderline when it comes their finances) because it's all stick and no carrot, and is being used as a tax dodge by those with loads of money, who'd be spending £100K+ on a new car anyway, but can now get a tax perk in the process - and I'm hit with a large car tax bill because apparently my old car is responsible for killing the planet. (And we already pay loads of tax on fuel, as opposed to EVs which apparently run on magically generated electricity, or in the case of hybrids, have a battery range of about 300 yards and still have a petrol engine anyway, but regardless get the tax dodge bonus.)

Short version is the transition to a greener future, whilst being essential IMO, has to be done in a way that doesn't clobber average folks who are already feeling the pinch, as that way lies resentment and ultimately, failure.
Have you driven an EV? If you're just a run of the mill car driver you'll find them grand, otherwise they're an abomination :p

Plus, catch fire and those batteries will burn for weeks :p

The approach of 'taking people' with it has been really poorly handled - there's no context handed out, there's a down streaming of responsibilities to consumers. Eg. you do x,y,z and then find a leaky Simpsons plant, as was the case in Azerbaijan, emitted more gases in 3 weeks than the entire of the UK - hard to sell that to people and evokes a what's the point response (esp when it costs).

Had a Lexus years ago and like you, hardly had a penny spent on it (then again, Japanese cars tend to hardly cost you a penny in terms of maintenance). Went 8 passed MOT's on the trot (compared to a German brand that failed it's first recently :p )
 
On that I agree, telling people they're going to be poorer in the middle of a cost of living crisis, during a period of high inflation and interest rates, spiralling food prices etc - to fit in with a green agenda is a very tough sell and a stupid way of doing it, and is probably the best way to turn folks against it.

I also have my own misgivings about the way it's being done, whilst still being entirely supportive of a transition to Net Zero, and having no doubt that climate change is a real and present danger.

(Long winded personal anecdote follows.)

For example I drive an old ICE car, it'll be 19 years old next year but since it completely refuses to break in any way whatsoever - (it's a Lexus, the Japanese Mercedes as Alan Partridge would say :D In reality a Toyota of course, but that's fine since Toyota make the most reliable cars in the world) - I'm loathed to consign it to the scrap heap. (It was my cheap 'Covid car' when I went to WFH, I was always intending to replace it when I went back to the office full time (which I have been for 18 months now), but I've grown rather fond of it so decided to keep it.)

Anyway, point is, it's a an old car that paid its primary debt to the planet when it was built back in 2005, but because it's ICE with a biggish engine (3 litre petrol), I'm taxed to fuck on it, this year twelve months road tax cost me £467. Apparently this is supposed to encourage me to switch to an EV, but what it's actually making me do is resent the bollocks out of them.

There are loads of incredibly expensive brand new tank-like hybrid/electric SUVs over here, I saw a BMW one parked up on the prom the other day (in a specially designated space where us dirty ICE folks aren't allowed) and wondered how much it cost. I checked the reg on the IOMG website, and one Google search later found its base price (assuming no options) is...... £120,000. You could invade a bloody country with a few of these things, the cost of materials (and cost to the planet!) to build one will be eye-watering, a small modern EV this is not.

And the cost to tax this brand new £120K behemoth for a year? £65.

Now of course one doesn't need to spend £120K on an EV, some of the older Nissan Leafs are now down in the £5K-£6K range, but these were the lower range capacity ones to start with, and now with many years on them have degraded battery packs and a pitiful range, especially in inclement weather. And then of course you need somewhere to park and charge them, which not everyone has. (And nor does everyone have thousands of pounds knocking around to spend on a 'cheap' EV, when they might still have a dependable old ICE car that's still working fine.)

The point of this rambling is that even from this limited exposure to the 'green transition', it's irritated me (without causing any actual financial hardship, I can well imagine how it'll play with people who are already borderline when it comes their finances) because it's all stick and no carrot, and is being used as a tax dodge by those with loads of money, who'd be spending £100K+ on a new car anyway, but can now get a tax perk in the process - and I'm hit with a large car tax bill because apparently my old car is responsible for killing the planet. (And we already pay loads of tax on fuel, as opposed to EVs which apparently run on magically generated electricity, or in the case of hybrids, have a battery range of about 300 yards and still have a petrol engine anyway, but regardless get the tax dodge bonus.)

Short version is the transition to a greener future, whilst being essential IMO, has to be done in a way that doesn't clobber average folks who are already feeling the pinch, as that way lies resentment and ultimately, failure.
Electric cars are greenwash. Hideously expensive, short ranges and we are storing up a financial catastrophe for the future as well as an environmental one. I'll explain why:

The battery is 50%-ish of the price of a 30k entry model. You pay 15k for the car and 15k for the battery. Now as we know with BMW's, Jags, Range Rovers, Toyotas etc. these hydrocarbon burners can last 20-30 years and still do the job ( as chopley says) and hold a resale value. Now lithium batteries decline on a scale after 1000 charges as we know from i-products and although a little better in cars, when the fuckers go and your range has crashed (sorry) down to 100-150 miles say then you have a bloody great problem with value and resale or replacement!

The batteries are consuming rare materials ripped mainly out of Africa in appalling conditions with environmental slaughter the result and going back to the above, when the bloody great 300kg battery pack is fucked, do we (or any country) have the capacity and facilities to break down cleanly these toxic blocks? Because in the coming decade there's going to be one big bastard problem here.

Does anyone measure the hydrocarbon proportion of the leccy needed to charge them up? Nah.

When you buy diesel or petrol you have the cost, taxes and a small profit for the retailer. Go to a fast charger station and you pay up to 3x the cost per kwh of your domestic leccy!

Then there's the range. OK, most trips in cars are local, but I have a BMW 320d M-Sport. It's £30 a year to tax. It has a twin turbo, 9-speed paddle shift box yet sits 5 adults comfortably has a large boot and is reliable. You can give it a good torque caning but press the eco button, stick it in cruise control on the motorway at 60mph and it basically sips fuel. Brim full, I just did a 243-mile round trip and it's dropped just below 3/4 full. I filled it up to brim full again for £31 (at £1.53 per litre). Yes, £31 to do 243 miles. Try that in an electric car. Not only that, after those 243 miles the computer told me before I brimmed it again that I still had 522 miles range left in the tank (according to the driving manner of the 243-mile trip) so I could easily drive it 750 miles on a single fill. You'd need two charges in most electric vehicles for that amount of miles. And I bet you couldn't do 750 miles using one or two non-domestic charges for the £105 my tank takes from empty to brim full.

So you won't sell me an EV. My car won't suddenly need a replacement part of half its value in a few years. You won't need the colossal cost of charging infrastructure and streets dug up for me. Nor will I be giving you 300kg or more of toxic waste to deal with eventually.
 
Electric cars are greenwash. Hideously expensive, short ranges and we are storing up a financial catastrophe for the future as well as an environmental one. I'll explain why:

The battery is 50%-ish of the price of a 30k entry model. You pay 15k for the car and 15k for the battery. Now as we know with BMW's, Jags, Range Rovers, Toyotas etc. these hydrocarbon burners can last 20-30 years and still do the job ( as chopley says) and hold a resale value. Now lithium batteries decline on a scale after 1000 charges as we know from i-products and although a little better in cars, when the fuckers go and your range has crashed (sorry) down to 100-150 miles say then you have a bloody great problem with value and resale or replacement!

The batteries are consuming rare materials ripped mainly out of Africa in appalling conditions with environmental slaughter the result and going back to the above, when the bloody great 300kg battery pack is fucked, do we (or any country) have the capacity and facilities to break down cleanly these toxic blocks? Because in the coming decade there's going to be one big bastard problem here.

Does anyone measure the hydrocarbon proportion of the leccy needed to charge them up? Nah.

When you buy diesel or petrol you have the cost, taxes and a small profit for the retailer. Go to a fast charger station and you pay up to 3x the cost per kwh of your domestic leccy!

Then there's the range. OK, most trips in cars are local, but I have a BMW 320d M-Sport. It's £30 a year to tax. It has a twin turbo, 9-speed paddle shift box yet sits 5 adults comfortably has a large boot and is reliable. You can give it a good torque caning but press the eco button, stick it in cruise control on the motorway at 60mph and it basically sips fuel. Brim full, I just did a 243-mile round trip and it's dropped just below 3/4 full. I filled it up to brim full again for £31 (at £1.53 per litre). Yes, £31 to do 243 miles. Try that in an electric car. Not only that, after those 243 miles the computer told me before I brimmed it again that I still had 522 miles range left in the tank (according to the driving manner of the 243-mile trip) so I could easily drive it 750 miles on a single fill. You'd need two charges in most electric vehicles for that amount of miles. And I bet you couldn't do 750 miles using one or two non-domestic charges for the £105 my tank takes from empty to brim full.

So you won't sell me an EV. My car won't suddenly need a replacement part of half its value in a few years. You won't need the colossal cost of charging infrastructure and streets dug up for me. Nor will I be giving you 300kg or more of toxic waste to deal with eventually.

Even on a small place like the IOM an electric car can be non-viable. A colleague of mine bought a Leaf with a few years on it, and it was one of the lesser ranged ones (he'd unwisely thought, 'Isle of Man eh?, How far can you ever need to go?'). The combination of a degraded battery, the IOM's roads (you literally have to drive up a mountain to get from Ramsey to Douglas over the appropriately named mountain road, and then do the same to get back here), and during winter the cold weather (along with extra rolling resistance from wet roads, driving into the wind etc) - end result is that at worst he has to charge it every single day, for a 32 mile round trip. (My car, which is 18 years old with a three litre petrol engine, can do about 425 miles on a tank.)

And as dunover notes above, a replacement battery (even a refurb) will vastly outstrip the value of the car.

Yes you can buy EVs with better ranges, but those bastards are expensive, I quite liked the look of the new Hyundai Ioniq 5, until I realised that the base model costs £45,000, and over £50,000 if you get the one with the better range, or a frankly comical £55,000 for the fully loaded one - and this is for what is, if we bring it down to brass tacks, what you might call a practical family hatchback.

Even if you land somewhere in the middle of the pack, a new Nissan Leaf in its base configuration is a £30K proposition.

Also if you look at the overall pollution numbers, EVs need to so some big miles before their upfront 'planetary cost' is repaid through lower emissions, which not all of them are even remotely going to do, plus of course they're often replacing perfectly viable ICE cars (which have already been built!).

Oh yes and everyone's car insurance premiums are going up because the bastard things are so expensive to fix after even a moderate shunt, and if the battery pack is damaged, forget about it.

So yeah, it's a no from me, I'll keep my trusty old GS300 on the road for now, thanks very much.
 
Another point is decades and millions have been spent on technical advancements to get ICE cars as fuel efficient and clean re air pollution as possible, and we're just going to dump all that for cars that have no value once the electric battery is spent.

With the prices Chop mentions above, I sense there are ulterior motives at work here other than combating climate change. Everyone who wants to drive is going to have to pay more for the privilege one way or another.
 
A lot of the 'green initiative' seems to be ahead of its time, as in the tech to make it sustainable/worthwhile does not exist yet.
There are many cool ideas and concepts that dont really work in the real world yet, but probably will work in a not so distant future.

Going all in on green now seems like a waste since its so inefficient & costly, but at the same time you have to pour money into it if you want to see progress/innovation being made.
The hard part is finding the right balance,

2.gif
 
A lot of the 'green initiative' seems to be ahead of its time, as in the tech to make it sustainable/worthwhile does not exist yet.
There are many cool ideas and concepts that dont really work in the real world yet, but probably will work in a not so distant future.

Going all in on green now seems like a waste since its so inefficient & costly, but at the same time you have to pour money into it if you want to see progress/innovation being made.
The hard part is finding the right balance,

View attachment 187272
Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean....
 
A hybrid will have range but the whole principle of that even is flawed - using hydrocarbon fuel to charge battery which means you lose some of the fuel efficiency that would have driven the car as opposed to charging mode. Intrinsically electric is far more efficient in terms of lost energy per se as liquid fuels only return 30-40% of their energy into movement overall. But I digress.

There are a lot of Teslas around here as there is a dealership up the road and I believe there is a basic circa 35k entry model which does seem quite popular but the look of it is quite boring, hardly a stylish model.

We should also consider the hugely reduced range when batteries are cold in winter and you need to run the peripherals like heater/fan, headlights constantly. Same goes for aircon in hot weather. I'm pretty sure the test figures are (as usual) derived from a rolling road of beneficial resistance in a no-wind room with the ambient temperature at 21c and no lights or peripherals on.
 
A hybrid will have range but the whole principle of that even is flawed - using hydrocarbon fuel to charge battery which means you lose some of the fuel efficiency that would have driven the car as opposed to charging mode. Intrinsically electric is far more efficient in terms of lost energy per se as liquid fuels only return 30-40% of their energy into movement overall. But I digress.

There are a lot of Teslas around here as there is a dealership up the road and I believe there is a basic circa 35k entry model which does seem quite popular but the look of it is quite boring, hardly a stylish model.

We should also consider the hugely reduced range when batteries are cold in winter and you need to run the peripherals like heater/fan, headlights constantly. Same goes for aircon in hot weather. I'm pretty sure the test figures are (as usual) derived from a rolling road of beneficial resistance in a no-wind room with the ambient temperature at 21c and no lights or peripherals on.
Our work put them on for pooling and yeah, in the winter i think the heating alone takes a good 15-20% off the range which is a bit of a ball ache when you have to make the choice of: get to where i need to be or freeze my nuts off.

Was there not talk of making lamp posts charging points? In built up areas, no driveways etc, hard to see how folk could have them without a major investment in infrastructure - you'd almost need it to be 'offsite'.

A lot of Council's had free charging points for a while but with electricity increasing and increased use i see a lot of them have pulled them.
 
Had a Lexus years ago and like you, hardly had a penny spent on it (then again, Japanese cars tend to hardly cost you a penny in terms of maintenance). Went 8 passed MOT's on the trot (compared to a German brand that failed it's first recently :p )

The only car I've ever owned that has left me stranded at the side of the road and ringing for assistance (admittedly not too traumatising on the IOM) is a BMW 528i, when its cooling system decided to give way because it was all made out of injection moulded plastic (they're notorious for it, as I found out later).

I also owned a Mercedes CLS320 (pic below) which was a fucking bag of spanners and spent more time off the road than on it, including for an autobox control unit thingy that (as I also found out later) was a known failure point on the car but Mercedes refused to do a recall on it to save a few quid. Fortunately I had a warranty so it was all covered (would have cost thousands otherwise) but the car was off the road for weeks waiting for the part to come from Germany. (Dealer gave me a courtesy car.)

Mate of mine at work has a Golf R, the clutch gave way on it, the clutch always gives way on the R 'cause VW cheaped out and used the same clutch in it as from the GTi, despite the R putting another 60hp through it. (He's said he wouldn't have another VW.)

German cars really are not all that, and haven't been for a long time now, the days of the likes of Mercedes building cars to the maxim of 'think of what we need to make it work and triple it' are long gone. (My in-laws own a cherished Mercedes 190 (pic below), which they have owned since nearly new, it was built in 1989 and is still like a showroom car, and it all works perfectly. Mercedes do not build cars like that anymore.)

There's nothing really stopping me going out and getting a new car tomorrow (well, apart from the absolute pisstake price of cars in the post-Covid world, that completely puts me off), but the Lexus is just so good, whilst also not really being worth anything, that I can't bring myself to ditch it. It's also recent enough to have all the modern gizmos and gadgets I value, whilst also not being overloaded with all the shite I don't want. If it lands me with a big repair bill for anything at any point I'll probably get rid, but being a Lexus (well, Toyota with a skirt on :D ), it probably won't!

GOOD MERCEDES (34 years old and still running perfectly!):

1695375781281.png


BAD MERCEDES (this car put me off the marque forever):

1695375809549.png


BOMBPROOF LEXUS (it's a lot of car for four grand!):

1695384053725.png
 
The only car I've ever owned that has left me stranded at the side of the road and ringing for assistance (admittedly not too traumatising on the IOM) is a BMW 528i, when its cooling system decided to give way because it was all made out of injection moulded plastic (they're notorious for it, as I found out later).

I also owned a Mercedes CLS320 (pic below) which was a fucking bag of spanners and spent more time off the road than on it, including for an autobox control unit thingy that (as I also found out later) was a known failure point on the car but Mercedes refused to do a recall on it to save a few quid. Fortunately I had a warranty so it was all covered (would have cost thousands otherwise) but the car was off the road for weeks waiting for the part to come from Germany. (Dealer gave me a courtesy car.)

Mate of mine at work has a Golf R, the clutch gave way on it, the clutch always gives way on the R 'cause VW cheaped out and used the same clutch in it as from the GTi, despite the R putting another 60hp through it. (He's said he wouldn't have another VW.)

German cars really are not all that, and haven't been for a long time now, the days of the likes of Mercedes building cars to the maxim of 'think of what we need to make it work and triple it' are long gone. (My in-laws own a cherished Mercedes 190 (pic below), which they have owned since nearly new, it was built in 1989 and is still like a showroom car, and it all works perfectly. Mercedes do not build cars like that anymore.)

There's nothing really stopping me going out and getting a new car tomorrow (well, apart from the absolute pisstake price of cars in the post-Covid world, that completely puts me off), but the Lexus is just so good, whilst also not really being worth anything, that I can't bring myself to ditch it. It's also recent enough to have all the modern gizmos and gadgets I value, whilst also not being overloaded with all the shite I don't want. If it lands me with a big repair bill for anything at any point I'll probably get rid, but being a Lexus (well, Toyota with a skirt on :D ), it probably won't!

GOOD MERCEDES (34 years old and still running perfectly!):

View attachment 187285

BAD MERCEDES (this car put me off the marque forever):

View attachment 187286

BOMBPROOF LEXUS (it's a lot of car for four grand!):

View attachment 187291
Absolutely - i'm not sure if the German reliability/build was ever all that, or has taken a nosedive in recent years, but most of the issues i've had have been with them - 2 in a row that had a banjaxed air con system, amongst other things. I would not recommend a VW to anyone: they're money pits - i'd take a Renault over one.

Have a few pals with Mercedes and two had cracks in the gasket within 2 years (not sure if was due to coolant levels) and a raft of problems with the electronics.

When the missus got a new Audi (same as last one, just newer - bone of contention in the house :p), whether in my head or not, when i got in the build just felt cheaper as well (and i'm pretty sure the AC unit isn't as good as the older one)

My next one will be from Japan as nothing sinks the heart more when you get the quote at MOT time - along with hastily checking how much is left on the HSBC credit card :p
 
Yes, German cars are known the world over as being terrible and prone to failings. They've definitely built their reputation on being badly engineered, and shunned in favour of French and Japanese cars :laugh:

Meanwhile, chief Blair stooge and general flip-flopper Keir Starmer, freshly de-lubed from his Macron visit, struggling to find a pitch to sell the electorate as he outlines Britain's re-entry into the EU, and then being heard to say he'd honour Brussels' wishes as per the original agreement ?

It does appear as though he's intent on botching the easiest open goal this century, graciously handing the Tories some much-needed leverage going into next year. Could this man possibly conduct a breathtaking turnaround and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?.....

(Pictured: Starmer deep in thought on how to formulate a coherent response on Climate Change)

1695391633944.webp




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