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This might be a way to strike back...

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by m249a, Mar 19, 2004.

  1. m249a

    m249a Dormant account

    As you can see in my profile I own a business in the U.S. I can accept deposits and payments from clients with credit cards. Now, before we go any farther understand this...I am in no way shape of form promoting fraud...and if you do this with the intent of commiting fraud you will very likely be prosecuted. This is a small way for you to at least recover your deposits made with a credit card. In the U.S. Visa and Mastercard allow you 6 months to contest or, and this is key here, reverse credit card transactions. Most third party companies that processes credit cards place a hold on the transaction. In fact if the transaction is more then the credit rating of the vendor can support they will hold the transaction for up to six months. This is of course the exception. Now lets say you make a transaction to an online casino for "deposit", this shows up on your statement as a "purchase". You win money and make a withdraw, the casino for whatever reason refuses to pay you, because the transaction is listed as a "purchase" you can claim the product (your withdraw) was never received. Thus giving you the right to do one of the following.
    If it was a debit card with your bank, you contact them and explain, what happened, and request "provisional credit" for your transactions. Within 24 hours your account will be credited. They cannot and will not say no. This is aunt Visa and uncle Mastercard rules. They will in turn notify the respective company (Visa or Mastercard) and the third party transaction company will be red flagged. They could be refused further transactions until they prove why they didn't supply you with the end product you purchased. I.E. your withdraw. I know this from a vendor prespective. It was a goddamn nightmare.
    If it was an unsecured credit card, you contact the bank that issued the card and tell them what happened. They will give you some shit about gamming with your credit card, but again, as long as your transaction shows a "purchase" and you tried to make a withdraw (product) they will credit your account for the original ammount. This of course has to be a straight up pay and play scenario, no bonus comp or match play bullshit. Take it from someone who has been on the other side of this, when the third party company simply deducts the amount from your business checking account and you call them, and they inform you that you can no longer accept credit cards, wow it tends to wake you up. In my case it was employee fraud and I had to prove I prosecuted the employee for fraud, before I was allowed to take credit cards again. Even then I was given a limit on the amount per transaction. All my transactions are on a 7 day hold before I see the amounts in my accounts. Use this knowledge wisely. I'm sure some of you shithouse lawyers out think this is all a load of crap, but it isn't. These are safeguards in place for consumers, not vendors. Vendors have very few and very limited avenues for recovering reversed transactions. I look foreward to the comments from this post.
  2. amandajm

    amandajm Experienced Member

    Not sure what to say. Are you explaining that it is possible to do a chargeback and you are pretty much assured as the customer to get away with it?

    Are you saying to gamble because if they don't pay you can charge back?

    Not entirely sure what you are saying sir.
  3. Bruno712

    Bruno712 Banned User

    I believe, unless I'm misreading this thread, he is saying that a purchase, for whatever reason, via a credit card, is protected (implied warranties, etc.) inherently by using the card. Which is most definitely true with almost all credit cards sponsored by US banks.

    I, too, was a business owner who accepted credit card payments. If a customer of mine purchased a product from my company and was disatisfied, FOR ANY REASON, he could request that credit card company, sic bank, withhold payment to me and my company. With some companies (and states) there is a statute of limitations (of sorts) of 90 days, with others it can be as much as 6 months. In some states this can be done even if a product is sold "as is". The credit card company or bank will then withhold payment for that purchase or, if already paid, can hold future payments equal to the amount being contested. An arbitrator is then assigned to the case and an mutual agreement is attempted. If no agreement is reached, the arbitrator gives his recommendation to the bank and the bank acts accordingly. If the credit card holder's grievance is denied there is always the courts, but the merchant has already been paid so it can get lengthy and be somewhat futile.

    The gentlemen gives sound advice regarding credit card purchases no matter the product. However, I have 5 credit cards, none of which accept charges from any entity that even smells of gaming. And, because of The Patriot Act, I hesitate to obtain a credit card from a foreign or off-shore bank. The last thing I need is the Federal Governement sniffing around my finances.
  4. m249a

    m249a Dormant account

    maybe this will help...

    Bruno is right...with the arbitrator assignment ect...again let me clarify something. I am not saying go ahead and play then reverse your deposit (chargeback). I am saying because the buy in is reflected as a purchase and not casino chips...which is illegal in the U.S...land or internet...and if you win and request a withdraw, that is a good faith transaction for a "product". Refer to my original post for a more detailed explaniation. If the casino refuses to pay you your legitimate withdraw, you have the right to chargeback the original deposit, or deposits. Like bruno said most credit cards cannot be used for a casino buy in, thats what spawned the whole industry of companies like player center. If and when you do a chargeback it will not affect the casino. It is a blow to the third party handeling the credit card transactions. It is up to them to recover the money they paid the casino, and trust me they will recover their money. These companies have no intrest in helping players, but if you hit their pocket books hard enough, they might change their tune. Who knows, all I know is if islandjoescasino.com doesen't pay me soon, playercenter.com will be forced to refund the deposits. I was smart enough to use a check card, which adds a layer of protection to my transactions. Bruno implied that it could be a long process to dispute a transaction, maybe so but it will be a lot longer of a wait for a withdraw that will never happen...
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2004
  5. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    I really don't think it's a good idea to charge back.
    The third party company (such as Neteller) will not be happy about a charge back. It's very likely you will be blocked for good and they will put a dent on your credit report.
    A few charge back like this and you will be doing serious damage to your credit. Not to mention you will not be able to place bets everywhere.
    Threating them to do a charge back is one thing, but actually doing it is another. I know charge back is the last defense we players have when everything fail, but the consquence is too severe and I strongly suggest everyone to think twice (maybe more) before go for the big gun.
    Call and email the casino support, pictch a bitch here, complain at forums. Most of the time you will get your money.
    So far I only have 3 disputes remain unresolved. I think I had done far more damage to their business by posting on the forums. It cost me my deposit but they will have to pay much more for for a few dollars they stole from me.
    I'd say the outcome is more satisfactory than a simple charge back.
  6. Bruno712

    Bruno712 Banned User

    Let me first post a disclaimer; Bruno712 does not condone, nor does he recommend the practice of fraud to obtain any end, be it financial or otherwise.

    Ya got that my Casino buddies?

    Now to my point...

    Take another look at the last paragraph of hhcfreebie's post. Now put it in the context of an online department store. Can you possibly imagine having 3 ongoing, simultaneous, unresolved disputes with, let's say, Sears? My God, man, it would never happen. I have only had one unresolved dipute with a store in my entire 50 years of life on this planet, never mind 3 at once with different stores. And I can be the customer from hell. I sued a pet store for selling me a sick puppy after signing a release saying I wouldn't do it...and won!!!! So its not that I am submissive. It is because these companies know that they ain't the only game in town and I can buy my wife a Whirlpool Duet washer and dryer at a hundred different places. So if they want my business and, more importantly, my repeat business, they best attempt to resolve a legitimate dispute post haste or they lose me.

    One last point, I am checking with my connections at a third party credit checking company, Factual Data, Inc of Colorado, to see if any foreign based money exchange companies subscribe to the Big 3 (Equifax, Experian and TransUnion). I know of 2 that subscribe to Verisign because my wifey pooh is the call center director of Verisign's outsourced customer service department. But they are not a Credit Reporting Agency. I will get back to you when I get a substantiated answer.
  7. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Chargeback is the last resort, if you do it you will be blacklisted and your accounts with all the casinos using the same e-cash processor will be locked. Even threatening to do a chargeback might result in the same. You should only do it if the casino has disappeared, gone bust or is about to go bust or if you don't care whether you can continue to gamble online. Online casinos are very concerned about chargebacks, since many have been scammed by players who sign up, take the bonus, charge back if they lose, cash out if they win, or even cash out and then charge back.

    I don't understand how a chargeback would affect your credit rating. Your credit report mainly consists of your payment history on your loans and credit cards, bankruptcies and court judgements against you. As long as you make at least the minimum payment each month, you are OK.

    The retail analogy with Sears is not quite right, a better one would be buying something from another continent on e-bay. If you buy at Sears, you have certain rights, if you are unhappy with the product you bought, you can go back to the store, make a scene, demand to talk to the manager, report the matter to the BBB and to the state Attorney General, and sue Sears. If you are buying or selling on e-bay, you have to check out the other party's feedback to see whether he has delivered the goods as described or paid promptly. It is probably not worthwhile to sue someone over a small value item in another state or another country. Similarly, with online casinos your best guide is other people's experience at the casino, because you cannot rely on the law to protect you. Unfortunately, there is a business model consisting of offering big bonuses, then calling the players who take them up bonus abusers and confiscating their deposits. If you don't like it, you can sue the casino in Costa Rica or whereever. It must be working, otherwise certain scumbag casino managers would not do it.
  8. m249a

    m249a Dormant account

    good bad and ugly

    I do subscribe to equifax online to run consumer bureau credit reports on customers. Eport makes this process very easy and the report is up and printed within seconds. I have never seen a chargeback listed on a credit report, and trust me I have seen some brutal beacons. A beacon is your credit score, for those who want to know. I understand the fear in affecting your credit report, so I called my CSR @ Equifax. This is what she said. A chargeback is not a reportable action on your consumer credit report. Ever. Now a claim of idenity theft does. But a legimate claim of faliure to produce a product paid for will never show on your report. She went so far to say that if enough chargebacks are done to a company the major credit card companies will stop doing business with them. Now if you do a chargeback to a neteller account and they refuse to do business with you...so what, like I said they will not mediate or assist in a player dispute with a company. there are several diffrent methods in making a deposit to play that if it is your last resort than why not take it?
  9. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Hi m249a

    And welcome to the forum. If you have a beef with Islandjoes casino, please be my guest and fill out a "Pitch a Bitch" on the matter. I am in direct communication with IGS on this and they are aware of only one major payment issue at this point.

    But then, don't get your hopes too high up there since this software provider took six months to pay one player $4000 (from a $9000 win) from the defunct play4treasure casino.

    Now about chargebacks: making a chargeback can get you banned from an entire brand. Do a chargeback at a Microgaming casino or RTG and see what happens. There are other routes to take besides making chargebacks - and chargebacks will only recoup your initial deposit - it won't have anything to do with your winnings.

    A chargeback is a last case scenerio. I can see it happening to the crap casinos that run dodgy operations out of some back alley in Venezuela or CR. It should be used only as a last resort since it may backfire on the player.

    If the deposit was made via Neteller, contact their support (or even me - I can get these issues expedited). One thing that can put the fear of God in a casino is having their Neteller account shut down.

    But players should be aware that chargebacking a casino can put and end to any future play at whatever brand of online casino. Chargeback at xyzcasino - xyzcasino gets sold to megaglobalcasino - and your name remains in the data base a fraudulant player.

    And I don't think Europeans have this chargeback freedom as much as the Americans. Jyde, you there? What's your scoop on this?
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  10. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    >>A chargeback is a last case scenerio. I can see it happening to the crap casinos that run dodgy operations out of some back alley in Venezuela or CR. It should be used only as a last resort since it may backfire on the player.<<

    True! I had to put charge back on Wager 21 casino from their credit card processor. It has been going more than 6 months. I also email Neteller for help, just to get my deposit back. It involved a lot of work doing it. In fact, it's the credit card processor "suggest" me to do charge back. :D

    I also did a small charge back because a calling card company charge me without my authorization. Basically, it's always very important to check your credit card statement every month and know where the money go.

    Like Casinomeister said, this shold be ONLY used at rouge casino or last steps. Try to get help from other source.

    BTW, Nice picture!! But will you ever take the mask down??? ;)
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  11. amandajm

    amandajm Experienced Member

    Well others have said it, to chargeback is the last resort etc....

    The line through to Neteller is interesting is'nt it? Very.
  12. amandajm

    amandajm Experienced Member

    ie in context to the thread title, "this might be a way to strike back"

    Which i dispute chargebacking is.
  13. m249a

    m249a Dormant account


    Chargeback is a way to strike back. The case scenario here is with a casino refusing to supply a withdraw that was made in good faith. I refuse to allow a company, big or small to push me around and make up the rules as they see fit when they have to pay. At what point is it acceptable to do a chargeback? Everyone says it should be a last resort, and you will be listed as a fradulent player and "blacklisted". Again I say so what. There is to much competition in the online gamming industry, and not enough help when it comes to player support. I am not promoting this as a way to get revenge for a bad run at cards. I am saying if they refuse to pay you when you do win, then at the very least get back your deposit. If you allow fear to control your decisions then you are doing exactly what some of these bastards want. I for one am not afraid. Neither should you. I have played off and on at islandjoes for over 2 1/2 years, and like I said in the very begining, I always felt like I got a fair shake, and at the end of the day I had fun. But when the time came for me to finally make a withdraw, player center lied to me several times, gave me bogus time frames as to the security procedures ect. Understand what I am saying here, they out right, with intent, lied to me about my withdraw beign sent. I was put off not by the casino itself, but by the third party who for YEARS has been accepting my credit card deposits. Once they realized I wasn't going to just go away they told me they made a mistake, in telling me several times they paid me. I have been told to contact the casino management because they are responsible for paying me. Well needless to say casino management doesen't respond. Go figure. With all the posts and now warnings by the meister, what do my fellow players think I should do???
  14. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    Good luck with player center. They were pretty mess up as I remember. I used them 8 months ago. They paid extra to me by mailing a check and sending money to neteller at same time. I told them what happen and let them took the extra back.

    Nothing wrong with the charge back if this is the only way you can get your money back (like my situation). I didn't get banned from other casino after this.

    Playing at online casino is kind of risky and scary. That's why there are so many stories, forum, messageborad or website around. BUT there are also a lot of people working hard on this business, not only for making living but also stand on their own ground and help others. I believe casinomeister will do his best to help.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  15. recruit

    recruit Dormant account

    Hey Casinomeister (and everyone else!) I have a couple questions that maybe someone can answer for me. If you read my post from yesterday, ("Prepaid ATM scare tactics") you will see the nightmare I am currently embroiled in. Some of the transactions my daughter made were with my business check card...would a chargeback be appropriate in this situation? (And what exactly do you mean by chargeback - just denying the transaction?) Obviously, I do not want to do anything to get "banned" because I have played online for years and would kill me not to be able to play at my favorite places - but the total amount of damages here is staggering. I'm open for any suggestions!
  16. recruit

    recruit Dormant account

    Brother, I FEEL your pain!! If you read my post from yesterday ("Prepaid ATM scare tactics") you will see what fun I'M having...doing a chargeback never occurred to me because (and you were right on the money with your observation) I don't want to be banned from my favorite places, even if the transactions were not authorized by me. The bank has issued me a letter signed by the Vice President, affirming that these transactions were made at a time that I have proven I was out of town, but I did tell them I would assume responsibility, mainly as you pointed out, our of fear. Maybe I'm going about this all wrong. Maybe the "so what if they do kick me out" theory is the right angle, I just don't know - morally, my "little voice" tells me that because I am the parent, I have to clean up the mess. Realistically though, it's killing me financially - almost wiped me out completely.

    In YOUR case, I would not hesitate one single second if a casino screwed me out of a win. I would RUN, not walk, to the CC company and deny payment on the initial deposit, or any funds associated with the win. No question about it.
  17. m249a

    m249a Dormant account


    In order for you to do a chargeback on a credit card based upon your scenario, the credit card company may require you to submit an identity theft claim. This would of course open your daughter and her friend to prosecution. I am sure that is not an option. However the very threat of that to your child might just be enough to scare the hell out of her. Now like I said, the credit card co MAY require the whole identity theft thing. Most likely, especially with a business credit card they will simply reverse the charges (chargeback). The best option here is to contact the credit card co and ask them what to do. Good luck!!!
  18. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    The only chargeback I ever did (to casino) is to their credit card processor (EZTP) who handle wager 21 casino group because they "double" charge me instead of reund money back to my credit card. For example, I had a Citi bank card. They charge me $500 and "should" CREDIT back thet $500. but they CHARGE me another $500 instead. So there should be "0" but the total charge is $1000. It took me 3-4 months to deal with them and I have to PROVIDE proof on it. And I have other 2 credit card involved more than $2000 and took 8 months to reslove it. This is a very long and mess up story. :lolup:

    However, it's only involved me and I know these double charge was "false". I am not sure about your situation especailly it involved your daughter and you DON'T want to be banned from online casino at same time. It's very hard for casino to believe your story. Don't get me wrong on this. It's just too many stories going around when people "can't" see you.

    Maybe someone here will have better suggestion. But I think you will get banned if you do charge back on reputable casino group. Good luck!!!
  19. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    One more thing. I saw you live in US. The US credit card company will NOT allow gambling charge on the card. So they will do charge back if they find out. Not sure what will happen to your credit card account (red flag?) but it might get you banned from casino as well.
  20. recruit

    recruit Dormant account

    I wondered about this as well...if the US cards don't allow online gambling, then HOW were the charges put through??? So, it was a bank error as well, or...?

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