The CAP Solution

[mojo]

CasinoAffiliatePrograms.com (or CAP, as its commonly known) is the largest and longest-running online gaming affiliate resource, featuring an active community forum, chat rooms, affiliate marketing tools, industry news/articles, scam alerts, and a rigorous and distinguished certification process for online casino affiliate programs. The CAP Certification Process is held in the highest regard among industry experts, and is designed to protect the integrity of affiliates and the online gaming industry as a whole.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Perhaps should be re-written?

 

[lots0]

Silence and business as usual from CAP, says it all.

We've all seen this before, with other Rogue outfits.

Dom, looks like despite your best efforts, the patient killed it's self..

I don't see how anyone that wants to be considered 'honest' or 'trustworthy' can do business or have anything to do with CAP/PAP now.

 

[dominique]

It will have to be silence unless they issue a press release or video or something.

Lou and Warren are not posting at CAP anymore.

 

[lots0]

Dom they are leaving the Forum to you?

If that is so, are you going to continue to use the forum to recruit new 3rd tier affiliates for CAP/PAP?

 

[Webzcas]

It will have to be silence unless they issue a press release or video or something.

Lou and Warren are not posting at CAP anymore.

Not exactly true and all very convenient. Lou has been thanking every pro cap post since his big exit. Furthermore he posted concerning Grand Prive not more than 48 hours ago.

 

[jas2587]

Not exactly true and all very convenient. Lou has been thanking every pro cap post since his big exit. Furthermore he posted concerning Grand Prive not more than 48 hours ago.

yep I saw the same thing
Lou is not silenced nor retired an healthy as a OX
they act like nothin happened in London its biz as usual
I dont see how or why you would want to put yourself in this mess Dom
No One is gonna believe in CAP again IMO

Cindy

 

[dominique]

Not exactly true and all very convenient. Lou has been thanking every pro cap post since his big exit. Furthermore he posted concerning Grand Prive not more than 48 hours ago.

Yeah, he is reading and thanking and wanted to post an update on Grand Prive but thought the better of it.

Leaving the forum to me? I hardly think so. They own it.

I just want that no one gets banned without my say so, and no threads are moved or closed without my say so. There are too many fingers in that pie and these things have been getting out of control IMO.

I am the one who asked Warren and Lou to please stop posting. I saw it as counter productive for the community.

Lou wanted to stop anyway, but after 8 years of considering the forum his baby that's a real hard thing to do, and I understand because I have the same issue.

I don't think that Bryan intended this thread to turn into the slugfest it is turning into, and so I will withdraw from it for a while. I don't feel that there are any open minds here, they seem to be all made up already, so no point to my posting here I guess.

 

[rowmare]

I don't think that Bryan intended this thread to turn into the slugfest it is turning into, and so I will withdraw from it for a while. I don't feel that there are any open minds here, they seem to be all made up already, so no point to my posting here I guess.

Given the situation, reactions of anger and cynical comments must have been expected...
I understand how frustrating a position you are in; trying to defend the indefensible and calming the angry masses. It is not, however, reasonable to accuse your peers of having closed minds or calling this discussion a slug fest simply because people aren't responding in a way that you are comfortable with.
The reactions you see here are all perfectly understandable and utterly predictable.

 

[The Dude]

I don't see this thread as a slugfest at all.

Criticism is not slugging. Hell, I started this thread to give anyone who gives a flying rat's ass a way to fix CAP.

I didn't just jump off some boat from China, I know the industry, and I have been in contact with scores of people who are directly involved with this. I know what I am talking about.

But this thread is not about me, nor is it about you Dom, it is about how CAP can be fixed. It is about solutions, not about how CAP has helped people in the past.

I'm trying to enlighten the right people on doing the right thing. I'm hoping some of the other interested parties will chime in as well.

 

[Webzcas]

Respectfully Dom I completely disagree with your assessment calling this thread a slugfest. Making an observation as to CAP's silence is not an attack, it is an observation. Of which I have come to a conclusion - Which is that CAP are not going to change their current business model.

CAP currently 'Certifies' 90 odd programs, of which many I would not even refer my worst enemy to. CAP are trying to become a behometh in this sector of the industry and create a monopoly, putting cash before the interests of their members' and ultimately the players first.

Also looking at the archive posts of CAP, I find it 'interesting' that Warren and Lou like to publically coerce a program to renew their certification if they do not wish to do so. Another case of CAP Bully Boy tactics that we have become accustomed to over the past few months??

I am not going to name names of the casinos concerned as they do not deserve the negative publicity, but I am more than happy to send Bryan the links to said threads on CAP.


Then there is Lou and Warren's link to Card Spike via Effective Media - which in my view is the icing on the cake ( no pun intended ). It is funny how people are starting to forget about the whole Card Spike affair. Where is Lou's public explanation since Michael released this document -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

There has been just tumbleweed and then more tumbleweed.

Then there were the events at CAP Euro which you yourself witnessed firsthand. Has there been a public apology made to all who witnessed what happened? Again nothing!

I am glad Bryan started this thread. I am also glad Bryan has the Kahuna's to state what a lot of people have been feeling for a long time. CAP is broken, Affiliates are pissed off as are many of the upstanding programs who utilise their services. Is it any wonder the actual posting activity on CAP has taken a nose dive since the last few weeks. No coincidence I feel. People are voting with their feet and quite rightly so.

Until such time the management at Affiliate Media recognise there is a very real problem with CAP that needs addressing, I imagine the situation will get no better. Silencing the dissenting voice is not the correct way to resolve this. although I am sure that is what CAP/AM are hoping for.

I can understand why you are backing out of this thread though Dom. Lou is a good friend of yours and CAP is your home from home. However you know by continuing defending the indefensible you are digging yourself into a bigger hole.

 

[RobWin]

Also looking at the archive posts of CAP, I find it 'interesting' that Warren and Lou like to publically coerce a program to renew their certification if they do not wish to do so. Another case of CAP Bully Boy tactics that we have become accustomed to over the past few months??

I am not going to name names of the casinos concerned as they do not deserve the negative publicity, but I am more than happy to send Bryan the links to said threads on CAP.

I would think that would be positive publicity for the casino that refuses to renew their farce certification with CAP and it further shows that the casino does in fact have some moral standards to stand up for themselves and do the right thing. I think by naming the casinos it would also be beneficial and set a precedent to the other programs to see that these few are willing to make a public stand.

 

[dominique]

I have been back for 3 days and down with the flu since the last day in London.

I haven't even gotten started.

A thread here runs for two days and because there is no reaction at CAP in that time, we just pronounce CAP dead.

The fact is that there is nothing much constructive here other than Bryan's original post. Being destructive is not my cup of tea, regardless what side of any issue I happen to be on.

Lou is a friend, yes, but that doesn't mean I agree with all of his actions. Or that things will continue down the same path. It's ok to disagree with friends. Personally, I rely on my friends to tell me when I am heading in the wrong direction. When your friends tell you that, it has value and is constructive.

In my book, someone who has made major positive contributions to something for years deserves a chance to straighten out things that may have gone down a path that is undesireable.

Within two days this post went from suggesting solutions to pronouncing the patient dead.

The patient isn't dead. I am trying to get rid of the flu (thank god I don't have to actually speak here, I can only croak at the time) and the jetlag and do some thinking and then you should see some reactions to positive, constructive statements.

This may be the internet, but we are still all human.

 

[Webzcas]

Rob I'm by no means going to drag a third party into this. But I will quite happily PM you the link.

 

[RobWin]

Rob I'm by no means going to drag a third party into this. But I will quite happily PM you the link.

Yes, I understand your thoughts Webzcas, please do PM me...

 

[RobWin]

Thanks for the link Webzcas, I do see now though why you did not want to mention their name since in my opinion they ended up caving back in to CAP under pressure...

 

[jinnia]

Returned to 'cap' under pressure? BS!

What the hell could 'cap' say/do to pressure one to remain
and pay the outrageous prices for a phony seal? Bad mouth
their business?

If the casino/affiliate program is a good, ethical one, they have
plenty out there promoting and backing them!!

Casino / affiliate managers, think about it, and get real!!!

 

[RobWin]

Thanks for the link Webzcas, I do see now though why you did not want to mention their name since in my opinion they ended up caving back in to CAP under pressure...

Returned to 'cap' under pressure? BS!

What the hell could 'cap' say/do to pressure one to remain
and pay the outrageous prices for a phony seal? Bad mouth
their business?

If the casino/affiliate program is a good, ethical one, they have
plenty out there promoting and backing them!!

Casino / affiliate managers, think about it, and get real!!!

OoooooK...maybe you can enlighten us all then as to why this particular program did return to CAP then, since you thought my opinion was BS...

 

[The Dude]

Or perhaps keep this to a PM (or another thread) since it's derailing the thread. Thanks

 

[mojo]

This thread may have only been here a couple of days but we have been discussing this at Casinomeister for a month now. What is truly destructive is the lack of response from the administraters at CAP. There has been a major blow by CAP against this industry. Ignoring it will not make it go away.

Though many of us are weary from it, we're still here and will be until it is resolved. Words like slugfest, cap bashing, cap haters etc have been used so often it now goes in one ear and out the other.

Dominique, perhaps you could find out for us if there will be a statement or plan of action by the CAP administrators to try to rectify this?

 

[jinnia]

Or perhaps keep this to a PM (or another thread) since it's derailing the thread. Thanks

You got it Mr Meister man!

Apologies for derailng this un-dedrailed thread!!

Back on topic!

 

[bonustreak]

But this thread is not about me, nor is it about you Dom, it is about how CAP can be fixed. It is about solutions, not about how CAP has helped people in the past.

Just got a chance to read the thread and I have to say there are some really good ideas and some I don't agree with and that is the beauty of debating we don't all have to agree. This is a great thread and can have great potential if kept on track

 

[Simmo!]

Reminder: this is the thread for potential solutions, not the complaints. Plenty of other threads for that.

 

[GaryWatson]

My resolution would be for CAP to make a choice.

1) They could be an affiliate resource and pick up new subs along the way. They will support the affiliates.

2) They could be an info relaying resource for affiliate programs, sponsor who ever the hell they like. Ban any member in their forum for whatever they wish.

There is a conflict of interest in either choice so they shouldnt have both.

The Cardspike issue should bring it to a point. CAP is a site looking after operators (Possibly even have a share in several).

Solution :

Disclosure - Chose the affiliates or the operators interest and make it visible to newcomers. If CAp choses the operators, they should immediately remove their badge of approval on all sites.

 

[mojo]

Reminder: this is the thread for potential solutions, not the complaints. Plenty of other threads for that.

I have a general question Simmo and anyone. Do you think the suggestions here are being heard by CAP administration and/or Affilate Programs?

 

[The Dude]

I have a general question Simmo and anyone. Do you think the suggestions here are being heard by CAP administration and/or Affilate Programs?

That's for them to know and us to find out...

FWIW - since this thread began, about 50 i-Gaming Reps have logged in. Don't know if they've been reading this thread, but odds are they are.

CAP is a business - it's their business, and it's up to them on how to run it. I've already voiced how I feel about the way things have gone - as have a number of others. And there has been some great suggestions here as well.

I want CAP to succeed, but succeed in a way that benefits all parties involved: affiliates, affiliate programs, operators, players and event coordinators.

It's doable, but it's up to them to do it.

 

[dominique]

I have started the first of a series of threads for discussion by CAP members at CAP here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I am keeping these discussions confined to narrow subject matters and plan to cover quite a number of items over time.

For now, I want to know what our membership would like to see regarding the general certification process, and I want to collect constructive input there.

CAP admin is open to change, taking membership concerns into consideration. I have a feeling this will be a long discussion.

 

[rowmare]

I think that one solution is for Lou and Warren to sell CAP.

Sell it to somebody or some company with a good reputation.

 

[luckydabberbingo]

I have reached the point where I don't care anymore .

 

[mojo]

I have reached the point where I don't care anymore .

I said that too.

Michael Corleone: "Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in"

Godfather Part III

 

[DiamondGeezer]

I said that too.

Michael Corleone: "Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in"

Godfather Part III

I always thought that line was invented by a poster on here! I think it was a lady called Babs who used to use it about RTG Slots if I recall.

Have used it a few times too and gave her credit for it . Thanks for putting me right!

 

[lots0]

I have started the first of a series of threads for discussion by CAP members at CAP here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I am keeping these discussions confined to narrow subject matters and plan to cover quite a number of items over time.

For now, I want to know what our membership would like to see regarding the general certification process, and I want to collect constructive input there.

CAP admin is open to change, taking membership concerns into consideration. I have a feeling this will be a long discussion.

Sense I can't post at CAP Dom, I'll give you my opinion here.

(1) Any site that claims to be an "Affiliate Advocate" should not take money/payments from the casinos for any type of certification or seal.

(2) Certified Casinos, should meet requirements that are at least in part set by and/or agreed to by the membership.

(3) All casino certifications should be as open and as public as possible.
**

Come on Dom, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what needs to be done to bring CAP up to some basic "ethical" business standards. All you have to do is look at how other Advocate type organizations handle their certification (CM would be a good place to start).

Of course, if CAP wants to continue to make a profit from the casinos for certification to affiliates, I don't think there is a way in the world that could ever be considered ethical or above board, if they continue to call themselves an advocate type site.

P.S. That goes for the GWPA/APCW as well.

 

[jas2587]

I have started the first of a series of threads for discussion by CAP members at CAP here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I am keeping these discussions confined to narrow subject matters and plan to cover quite a number of items over time.

For now, I want to know what our membership would like to see regarding the general certification process, and I want to collect constructive input there.

CAP admin is open to change, taking membership concerns into consideration. I have a feeling this will be a long discussion.

isn't funny Lou comes back from London an all discussion's have stopped no one is even posting in this thread that he said what are you doin Dom who said you could do this?

odd

Cindy

 

[jinnia]

isn't funny Lou comes back from London an all discussion's have stopped no one is even posting in this thread that he said what are you doin Dom who said you could do this?

odd

Cindy

jas, it isn't 'odd', that's the normal way of thangs there!

 

[The Dude]

...(1) Any site that claims to be an "Affiliate Advocate" should not take money/payments from the casinos for any type of certification or seal...

I don't think CAP, or the GPWA, APCW for that matter, have claimed to be advocates - in other words a spokesperson for the affiliates. In fact, whenever this has been brought up, it has been shot down as "this is what we don't do"...

But yeah, there is a BIG problem when they make claims to having a listing criteria, when there isn't any. Are they trying to act as an affiliate "guardian" with these seals? How often have they been pulled for rogue-like antics?

888.com comes to mind, and then recently Cardspike...

 

[Webzcas]

CardSpike took 4 months but that is well documented.

Another one that got booted is Gambling Wages, but they were welcomed back in 2005. I guess they met the criteria for 'Certification' again and as I type this are still listed on CAP.

If anyone isn't aware of what casinos Gambling Wages Affiliate Program represents here is a run down.

Cirrus Casino
Cool Cat Casino
Club Player Casino
Palace of Chance

Well Cap allows communication with Affiliate Programs doesn't it? Here is one such dialogue with GW - Isn't the Prof helpful, when an affiliate alleges that the only reason GW are certified is because they paid CAP. BTW this particular affiliate had not been paid for 2 months when he made that post. It's an interesting read.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

IMO Gambling Wages alone being on CAP's site blows out of water the claim of a ' Rigorous and Distinguished Process' when it comes to certifying programs. Webmasters who promote GW may need certifying but not the other way round

 

[dominique]

isn't funny Lou comes back from London an all discussion's have stopped no one is even posting in this thread that he said what are you doin Dom who said you could do this?

odd

Cindy

I was working with Warren during Lou's absence but when Lou returned he did not like it.

I have taken a hiatus since.

 

[Sassy1]

I was working with Warren during Lou's absence but when Lou returned he did not like it.

I have taken a hiatus since.

I don't blame you one bit and I admire the fact that you had good intentions and gave it your best shot!

Maybe it was fate and you can use your valuable time and energy for those that appreciate it, or for your own endeavors!

 

[Webzcas]

Yep agree with that. Dom you can hold your head up high.

Meanwhile google is doing it's thing

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[The Dude]

...Meanwhile google is doing it's thing

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ahhh! You beat out my rogue page!

Can't have that now, can we?! Guess I should be updating it

 

[Webzcas]

You're still ahead on google.com but I am coming up fast

Incidentally I need to update my rogue page to include Grand Prive. Will try and do this, this afternoon.

 

[casinojack]

sad

As a business person, coming form the sportsbook side, we have paid forums for advertising. We open our doors to these forums "mods" coming by, seeing what we do, and looking at players accounts when disputes arise. We have a greed form the to be arbitrators.

Trying to see where I am spending my advertising money this year, is hard. I haven't even launched our casino dedicated sites, and already im being pulled into some of this.

Would be ok for them to just agree, "Hey we here to make money". I'm ok with that. I think affiliates would be also. Let me tell you what we do now, and again, i'm noob aff manager for casino, but based on sportsbook.

One of the forums sells affiliate management software. We rent it monthly, and this is good for everyone. Why ?

Well, software is hosted by this particular forum to keep me honest. I cant "skim" players, or mess around with the stats. They are what they are. The forum makes money to sell me this SW,and affiliates know I'm on the Up and UP

Also, we have an open door policy. you in Costa Rica? Never sent me a player ? Np, come over for the tour.

What about forum complaints ? Lets us face it, noone perfect, but both parties agree to the forum settling it. If the Aff Program does not, bye bye. Simple, Things end, people make money.

Anyways, no more fist fights in London unless I can place odds ;-)

Seriously though, WE need to get back to making money..

 

[greek39]

WE need to get back to making money..

How? When big portions of our industry lacks trust, integrity, transparency, code of ethics etc...

I feel CAP lacks all the above and them some so do others. The roguish behavior gives doubt spawning an higher risk on no return for hard labor.

Strangely enough I spent three years in the trenches trying too bust into this market. No earnings until I felt the urge to hide everything. Only then did things turn around for me.

JMO

greek39

 

[GaryWatson]

How? When big portions of our industry lacks trust, integrity, transparency, code of ethics etc...
greek39

True, if CAP dies, we dont need a vaccum. CAP has its place. It is a money making machine, It has done lots for many affiliates. What we dont need is a rush for an opening.

CAP deals with its own issues. We can chose to obey or not.

My solution is not a CAP solution. I would blacklist them for real reasons like they have blacklisted others for their own motives. We cannot compromise. It might be the same story in 3 years time but not without demorilizing half of the decent people left.

 

[jas2587]

Why can't some one else become the "boss' of the affiliates "boss" might not be the right word but clearly (Lou + warren) are upsetting every one an not doing what they are Paid to do

From what I have read if I had the cash an paid it I could be on top of the list an not have to do a darn thing cept write a check then I am a site to go to
shame I dont have a site
I have always said I am a player I gamble I spend MY cash to play I dont take no bonus unless forced on me

Bryan Simmo Max Spearmeister an Webzcas if I am out of line I am sorry but this is MO

I think I am leaving some 1 out a Moderator an for that I am sorry

Cindy

 

[GaryWatson]

Why can't some one else become the "boss' of the affiliates "boss" might not be the right word but clearly (Lou + warren) are upsetting every one an not doing what they are Paid to do

Cindy, there are a lot of good leaders out there. Boss probably isnt the word, they are generally referred to as mentors, and their job is to guide affiliates. They get paid by performance. If the affiliate does well, so do they.

CAP probably started as mentor to many affiliates but somewhere along the line their motives seem to have changed. Now there seems to be a clash of interests. They no longer seem to support those they are supposed the shepherd and it looks as though they are working with the operators, not a bad thing in itself, but recent actions seem to indicate they are bullying their underlings (and possibly some operators).

 

[lots0]

The solution seems to be working its self out.

Webmasters and Casinos that care about Honesty, Integrity and how our business is perceived by the public are voting with their feet and leaving CAP...

Webmasters across the web are blacklisting CAP on their websites and the results are just now starting to show up in the search results (and CAP's pet blackhat SEO can't do a damn thing about it )

In a very short period of time new webmasters that are looking to become affiliates will be become aware of CAP's standing (or lack thereof) in the Industry, before they get caught up in the shady bullshit that goes on at CAP.

The end is nigh...

 

[casinojack]

Seems Like

We need someone to protect affiliates AND players alike. My sportsbook uses a forum to do this, and we pay to be inspected (that's right, ONSITE inspections) and Ill admit they don't always go my way, BUT I respect the desicons of the mods their, they are truely impartial.

This might be good, to agree to "arbitration", keep everyone level.

PS, to be upfront, I like this too. When we want to stop a player due to chargebacks, fraud etc. I don't blacklist the player on forums, of course, but you would be surprised what players do.

Any rate, CAP, hope you guys get back on track. Was a lot of positive things for a LONG time, sorry it went this way. CM MODS, keep it up

 

[lots0]

...Any rate, CAP, hope you guys get back on track. Was a lot of positive things for a LONG time, sorry it went this way. CM MODS, keep it up

I got to disagree with you.
CAP was NEVER positive for the industry, Lou and Warren just kept most of the nasty smelly CAP dirt hidden till recently.

Best solution... For CasinoAffilaitePrograms.com to fade away into nothingness.

 

[The Dude]

Well, it looks like this thread has run its course. If there are no more "solutions" to CAP, then I guess we should put this issue to rest and close the thread.

Any objections?

 

[maxlevine]

Well, it looks like this thread has run its course. If there are no more "solutions" to CAP, then I guess we should put this issue to rest and close the thread.

Any objections?

Before you close this thread, I have a suggestion.

Considering the loss of trust in the affiliate industry caused by this commotion, why don't you create a new forum in Webmaster's Corner where webmasters and affiliate managers could get together and exch... hold it... ok, never mind.