The CAP Solution

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Antonia1953

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Well if in fact CAP/PAP want to be real affiliate advocates.
I would suggest they focus on providing services/education (both free and paid)

Excellent idea! There are multiple levels of income for mentoring forms of education. The instructors should be from all areas of the industry, so that no specific agenda could monopolize the program. Achievement rewards for the affiliates would jumpstart vitality. What would be some of the classes available? An Introduction to the business would be a must and a good one to offer as free. Where would you go from there?
 

Simmo!

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England
I largely agree with the opening post. I think the core issue lies in the use of the word "Certification" and the fact it's paid for. Changing this to something like "Sponsored" would be both more ethical and up-front, and would ensure a continued revenue flow. Everyone knows where they stand then. Indeed this is what GPWA does. But, there also needs to be a disclaimer attached showing there is no endorsement too.

Conferences: I agree. Competing with CAC in Amsterdam, whether deliberately or otherwise, just splits the industry down the middle and causes resentment. The scheduling of Spring Break just made an uncomfortable situation worse. The conferences need to be organised with both CAP and GPWA/CAC involved in the scheduling. I was angry about this (still am), as much as I like and respect Alex who is caught in the crossfire.

The other major issue for me and others is the strong-arm tactics that have been used recently. The AGD thing left a very bad taste in the mouth because kwblue is an affiliate, the people CAP are supposed to be working with, not against. The BCP accreditation in the middle of an uprising didn't help. Nor did all the C&D's that went out just in time for Christmas. That period, before Cardspike, was when I seriously started to question CAP's true direction. That kind of thing HAS to stop. It alienates affiliates, myself included. How do you trust someone who bans your colleagues and starts a competing service?

Incidentally I share a different view on the bannings. If you own a forum, you can ban who the hell you like for whatever reason you like. So all this "freedom of speech" nonsense some people throw out is crap. No-one has a "right" to be on a forum. BUT... that said, the way CAP handled this whole situation, banning Michael, Bryan and others was not only very bad PR but a missed opportunity. In fact banning Michael was a catalyst. I think CAP should really look at this aspect and try to use criticism as an opportunity to demonstrate dignity and professionalism. Bottom line is, if they don't, people will be afraid to say what they think and CAP will not get important feedback on ways in which to improve.

At the end of the day, it appears that CAP want to "own" the industry. Nothing wrong with ambition, but not at any cost, which is how it appears from the outside. That ethos needs to change if CAP wants to work towards regaining trust IMO. And for what it's worth, I want CAP to continue - it's been a very valuable addition to the industry and I don't care if they make $millions - but it needs to be ethically run and have respect for it's surroundings.

Cheers,

Simmo!
 

RobWin

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The other major issue for me and others is the strong-arm tactics that have been used recently.

Incidentally I share a different view on the bannings. If you own a forum, you can ban who the hell you like for whatever reason you like. So all this "freedom of speech" nonsense some people throw out is crap.

Cheers,

Simmo!

Nice choice of words there...:):thumbsup:
 

dominique

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The BCP accreditation in the middle of an uprising didn't help. Cheers,

Simmo!

Re BCP:

I think it to be one of the good things.

They were accredited. We raised hell. The certification was withdrawn until the affiliate problems were completely fixed. Only then was it recertified.

The concept of CAP worked in that case. And I am proud of getting that fixed.

That is why I have been at CAP all these years - because things can and do get fixed there.

Like I say over and again, I believe in fixing things, not breaking them.
 

WagerX

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I also agree that there should be a clear separation between "certification" and "sponsorship". I understand the need for a program like CAP to make a decent profit, but the lines between the two are ill defined.

I know that when I first started marketing I used the "certification" process at CAP to find quality programs. I feel that in a way CAP let me down by not telling me that the "certification" process is primarily based on monetary payments. I think that now, it's handled as an unspoken fact that only the experienced webmasters have caught on to. At the time there were three programs no experienced webmaster would touch.

So, calling them "sponsorships", with unyielding criteria for both affiliates and players is imperative.
 

RobWin

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You guys are talking about calling it "Sponsorship" or "Sponsored", but in my view that's not the right term either because all these years that CAP has been charging the fees it has really been the casinos that have been "Sponsoring" CAP since they are the ones paying the fees, not the other way around, so who is really "Sponsoring" who here.

Maybe CAP could use the term "Listed" and that should clarify any misconceptions regarding "Certified" or "Sponsored".

Similar to how the word "List" is used in Bryan's "Accredited List"
 

mojo

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I am posting here what I posted at the gpwa. I'm just burnt out. I think what clinches it for me is posts by Dominique saying that she 'just doesn't know' the business end. Dom, I know you are trying to help, you always do. I hope you know I think that you do. But things cannot just go on as if nothing has happened at CAP.

I haven't been able to read lately. It is all to upsetting to keep reading 20 page threads and spinning our wheels. I've said what I wanted to say. There are some terrific and elequent posts that are greeted with more silence. We have given CAP every opportunity to respond. Nothing. How long are we supposed to go on like this?

Now what?

Are we going to continue with these threads or are we going to do something. I feel played as an affilaite somewhat. We get all worked up and post and post until we are blue in the face and what comes of it? Nothing.

Lou is posting at cap. Cap is singing their praises on how wonderful the conference was. Listing the programs that will attend CAP over CAC. Sorry, or they will attend 'both'. I am getting ill.

Where is a Statement? An admission? An APOLOGY for putting us, the affiliates and programs, through this?

Affiliates:

What do we want to do now? Do we rogue them similar to a rotten casino? I don't know about everyone else but we are getting nowhere posting and I feel like a pawn here. The wheels are in motion and no matter what damage control anyone does, without action it is senseless. The games keep rolling on and there is no end in sight. We need to make an end. I don't want to hurt anyone. We need some answers from cap and that is NOT going to happen. But this HAS to end.

Affilates and Programs: What do we do to end this? If no one else will take action NOW then we need to.
 

Casinomeister

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...
They were accredited. We raised hell. The certification was withdrawn until the affiliate problems were completely fixed. Only then was it recertified.

The concept of CAP worked in that case. And I am proud of getting that fixed.
...
How much Koolaid have you been drinking over there at CAP anyway? :p

Who has raised hell about player x who has been owed $1.5 million at Cirrus and Prism casino for years?(Gambling Wages is "Certified" - always has been). Hmmm - no one. So don't go there on that.

Grand Prive has been dicking around players since 2004 - no one at CAP got upset about them until the cash flowed stopped for affiliates, then all hell broke loose. :rolleyes:

Chipleader is listed - so Absolute Poker and Ultimatebet are "Certified" at CAP :eek2: It's like CAP is living on planet Pluto. Does anyone remember the scandals that ripped millions off of poker players? I guess the affiliates were paid, so that's cool.

CAP certifies anyone - anyone who wants to part with their cash. Do you think they gave a refund to BCP while the complaints were heard? Nope - don't think so.

The Certification is worthless in my opinion if these programs are allowed to proceed unchecked. As I pointed out, there are a number of "Certified" affiliate programs that condone unorthodox marketing techniques, nonpayment for players, and other dubious meanderings.

Just because an affiliate program claims to pay their affiliates doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good program. And just because it can afford $10k-20k a quarter to be listed in an aff forum, doesn't mean it's a good program either. There is a total lack of responsibility and accountability on CAP's part towards its affiliates and their players.

Like I mentioned before - CAP has been treated like a cash cow - it's broken - one of the ways to get it back on it's feet is to do away with the paid "certification" and focus in on ethics.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
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Who has raised hell about player x who has been owed $1.5 million at Cirrus and Prism casino for years?(Gambling Wages is "Certified" - always has been). Hmmm - no one. So don't go there on that.

Grand Prive has been dicking around players since 2004 - no one at CAP got upset about them until the cash flowed stopped for affiliates, then all hell broke loose. :rolleyes:

Chipleader is listed - so Absolute Poker and Ultimatebet are "Certified" at CAP :eek2: It's like CAP is living on planet Pluto. Does anyone remember the scandals that ripped millions off of poker players? I guess the affiliates were paid, so that's cool.

CAP certifies anyone - anyone who wants to part with their cash. Do you think they gave a refund to BCP while the complaints were heard? Nope - don't think so.

The Certification is worthless in my opinion if these programs are allowed to proceed unchecked. As I pointed out, there are a number of "Certified" affiliate programs that condone unorthodox marketing techniques, nonpayment for players, and other dubious meanderings.

Just because an affiliate program claims to pay their affiliates doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good program. And just because it can afford $10k-20k a quarter to be listed in an aff forum, doesn't mean it's a good program either. There is a total lack of responsibility and accountability on CAP's part towards its affiliates and their players.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Bryan. You know.....your original post in this thread has some great ideas, but IMO it was missing the MOST critical point(s). And you have outlined those above to a tee.

I have sat on my hands for months now re: the Grand Prive issue. I tried to comment on the Gambling Wages stuff when it was an active topic. The only time that affiliates/affiliate organizations (in general) get upset and take action...is when their own income is directly affected. There is no sense me echoing what you have said above, other than to say you have hit the nail right on its proverbial head. NOW we are at the true root cause of the problem, and what is so very wrong with this industry.

The player is the one who provides the revenue, for casino, for affiliate programs and for affiliates. I could give a rat's ass if an affiliate program pays its affiliates on time...what good is that if the program/product they are hawking doesn't look after the most important part of the equation? The PLAYER.

Certified program, sponsor, listed company.....call it whatever you like. It's all worthless if there isn't some criteria in place to protect the player and ensure that they are at the top of the food chain.

Until EVERYONE involved in this industry realizes that, it will never be "fixed". And unfortunately, ethics isn't really something you can instill in someone, or teach them. They either have them, or they don't. When making money is always the primary goal, ethics will ALWAYS come second.

God, I can't believe you posted that. I'm still in shock. I didn't think anyone was actually going to get to the real problem....which is really more than just CAP. It's the whole way that business is done on the affiliate end of things. I spent over an hour the other day writing a very similar post...and ended up deleting it without posting. I didn't think anyone wanted to hear it.

Thank you again. :thumbsup:
 

jinnia

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No truer words have been spoken!!

Thank you Meister!! GREAT post!!! :notworthy
 

Webzcas

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Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
Bryan. You have the balls to say what a lot of people have been thinking but are too afraid to. :thumbsup:

THANK YOU!

CAP's silence on recent events is very very telling. Hoping it will go away is wishful thinking. Many webmasters and also decent programs feel the same way.
 

Zoozie

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
CAG
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Denmark
The player is the one who provides the revenue, for casino, for affiliate programs and for affiliates. I could give a rat's ass if an affiliate program pays its affiliates on time...what good is that if the program/product they are hawking doesn't look after the most important part of the equation? The PLAYER.

I have also been holding this though to myself during this heated discussion. scum casinos cheat players every day due to greedy affiliates giving them traffic. But when the affiliates get cheated all hells breaks loose.

In the first year of my online casino experience I get cheated for 200$ at
Prestige Casino. The casino-portal that I used was casino.dk (not existing anymore) and casino.dk agreed I was getting cheated and they paid me out of their own money! It is sad for the industry that a scandal like this burst open, but only a few affiliates does have my sympathy. You got involved and contribute to a rotten industry, so what do you expect to get back?

I am not now making this post to be popular here on CM :) But this is my opinion though. If you are an affiliate, look at you site and see how many
rogue casino you promote before you start complaining in public.
 

BingoT

Nurses love to give shots
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Location
Hartford,Ct
You know it's funny that in my seven years of promoting places I only ran into one down fall in this gaming industry and that was from BingoSuite and they are out of business but with a new management now & I remember well that Lou & Dom made sure that I would get paid because my manager just got the job at CAP's and it all worked out in the end.
For all the players that I have sent to anyplace that had issues they were all taken care of pretty fast.& I Thank God also I never ran into a on going battle Player vs any gaming business.
All affiliates need to all work together for a better tomorrow and not think of themselves.
Money is the root of all evil & Greed is on top.
The word Trust in a person goes along way in this business
I just hope all this works out with all parties involved in all this mess.
Thanks
B-T
 

Casinomeister

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Let's not forget it's a two lane street - bad players are to blame for the existence of rogues as well. There are many members of this forum by the way who don't care where they play - their only concern is that they get paid by the casino. Just look at some of the Prism/Cirrus/crappy casino threads - and for every disgruntled player there are a few who chime in that they have no problem.

Saying this, let's keep this thread on the rails - this is a discussion on how CAP can be fixed.
 

Antonia1953

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I have no idea why CM even started this thread. Bryan, you were unhappy with the first thread because you felt it was non-productive, so you started a new thread. The opening of that thread indicated that you were looking to repair the situation, but now it has gone back to seriously silly mudslinging. This is your site and you have the right to ban anyone you want...that's a no brainer, but it has nothing to do with the "price of cotton". When freedom of speech on a public site is nothing but crap and that disposition is applauded in the midst of trying to find a solution to a problem...productivity ends.
 

dominique

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The way I always saw it is that Casinomeister deals with player issues, and CAP deals with affiliate issues.

If I had a dollar for everytime I have said that affs need to read Casinomeister to be able to make decent decisions about their sites, I would be sitting pretty.

And yes, I have never gotten involved in what affiliate media does. All I was involved in is the message board, moving threads to the appropriate forum (most end up in general discussion even when there is a forum with precisely that topic) and seeing to it that people do not launch personal attacks against each other. I don't have admin access to the forum either.
I have limited time, I have my own business to run.

And, yes, I have turned up the heat when affiliates got screwed. Whether the offending program was present at CAP or not. And some who didn't fix the aff issues got booted permanently, although that is rare.

I rely heavily on Casinomeister to inform myself of player issues, and of course the feedback I get through my own site. I base my decisions on who gets a spot on my site on these three factors, Casinomeister, my own player feedback and the affiliate side. It has worked for my players and for me.

I don't think relying on either affiliate info or player info by itself is enough to base decisions on. The house must be clean in both respects, what hits one group today hits the other tomorrow.

Affiliates are responsible for their own actions, just like anyone else. Information about everything is easily available online, and everyone needs to research before they act, affiliates and players alike.

I see the aff programs at CAP as mostly just being available for discussion and dispute resolving, much like the casino reps are here. With the difference that at CAP they get a forum and this is settled publically.

I didn't design the way CAP works, but as a user, it works for me. It just can't be, and never was meant to be, the only source of info one bases decisions on.
 

slotplayer

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I don't get it. Why does everyone want something to be other than what it is revealed to be? that's just wishful thinking.

The true certification for me anyway is the feedback posts from you folks the players and the affiliates over at CAP.
 

Casinomeister

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I have no idea why CM even started this thread. Bryan, you were unhappy with the first thread because you felt it was non-productive, so you started a new thread. The opening of that thread indicated that you were looking to repair the situation, but now it has gone back to seriously silly mudslinging. This is your site and you have the right to ban anyone you want...that's a no brainer, but it has nothing to do with the "price of cotton". When freedom of speech on a public site is nothing but crap and that disposition is applauded in the midst of trying to find a solution to a problem...productivity ends.

I'm not looking to repair the situation - I'm giving my thoughts on what ought to be done. Take it or leave it. I haven't seen any mudslinging - mostly constructive and a few justifiable criticisms.

Your references on prices of cotton, banning people, and freedom of speech elude me. I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Casinomeister

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The way I always saw it is that Casinomeister deals with player issues, and CAP deals with affiliate issues...
Casinomeister deals with industry issues - not just player issues. That's why there are two newsletters - one for the general public, and one for industry folk.

:D
 

Nandakishore

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Affilates and Programs: What do we do to end this? If no one else will take action NOW then we need to.
1. We must accept that CAP is a combination of an affiliate forum and hard business.
2. If this construction is hurting us, we must stop all connections with it. Stop going to the CAP forum AND to all events sponsored and/or organized by CAP. Whether that would affect CAP in anyway, I don't know. If it does, it would be awesome!
3. As for the affiliate programs, they may take some actions if the sinking reputation of CAP starts hurting them. All that we as affiliates can do is to make it explicitly clear to the programs certified by CAP that we care a damn for such certificates.
4. The biggest problem confronting us is the lack of a third party certification of affiliates, programs and casinos. With all due respects to Casinomeister, AGD and others, they cannot be considered as a 'third party' as long as even a single banner of a gambling site or a program is visible on their sites. And since a certificate has no value unless it is from a neutral organization and not buyable, we should stop thinking of certifying any program or affiliate.
5. However, if CM. AGD, GIA, PAL and GPWA/APCW can come together and define with the help of its forum members a number of criteria to assess the benefits of affiliate programs for their members, and find a procedure how to use these criteria to assess the programs under active participation of their members, then, of course, we wont have anything which can be called certificates, but "only" evaluation of the values of the programs for a number of esteemed organizations whose members are active affiliates and players.
The affiliate programs may then start weighing benefit of the 'certificates' they buy for plenty of money against this evaluation which does not cost them anything.

But the question is: can we create and manage such a unified process?

I hope we can say: YES, WE CAN !
 

dominique

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4. The biggest problem confronting us is the lack of a third party certification of affiliates, programs and casinos. With all due respects to Casinomeister, AGD and others, they cannot be considered as a 'third party' as long as even a single banner of a gambling site or a program is visible on their sites.

I have also always been a supporter of AGD, I think the service is completely impartial, regardless of banners.

Facts are facts, and AGD deals solely with facts, these being changes in affiliate T&Cs. The changes are what they are. They are published for everyone to see and consider. They are facts, pure and simple.

No matter what you do, someone has to pay the piper because few people in this world can afford to work full time for free. I wish I was wealthy and could afford to do that. I have all kinds of constructive ideas of what to do with my time if I didn't have to make a living.
 

Nandakishore

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I have also always been a supporter of AGD, I think the service is completely impartial, regardless of banners.
.
I agree. The services given by AGD and CM are extremely valuable for affiliates and players. But, they are not, according to my understanding, third parties, and, therefore should not be considered as institutions eligible to certify programs.
 

NASHVEGAS

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Bryan,
Have you ever considered a moderated private section for player's only???.......Yes, I would post in regards to my opinion on a fix in a private section but I've read too many threads at CAP and at times here to be much more inclined than hence.....With exceptions of course, it is nothing more than Liar's Poker.
 

GaryWatson

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certify (srt-f)
v. certified, certifying, certifies
v.tr.
1.
a. To confirm formally as true, accurate, or genuine. (?)
b. To guarantee as meeting a standard: butter that was certified Grade A. See Synonyms at approve. (?)
2. To acknowledge in writing on the face of (a check) that the signature of the maker is genuine and that there are sufficient funds on deposit for its payment. (?)
3. To issue a license or certificate to. (what is it for?)
4. To declare to be in need of psychiatric treatment or confinement. (?)
5. Archaic To inform positively; assure. (Just like most other portals)

certified
Adjective
1. holding or guaranteed by a certificate: a certified acupuncturist (?)
2. declared legally insane (?)

Source :
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In all intents and purposes the certification appears as fake as can be and should be placed here

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

I have no issues with CAP as an affiliate resource but that is where I feel they have overstepped the mark. There is no quality testing. The certification is misleading innocent players and affiliates into parting with their money.

Questionable sites go to CAP with their check books and fix the matter there and then. They are now certified to do what they want with the backing of CAP.

They promote some good programs but scrape the barrel at times. A banned member here was spamming his site at CM and CAP. He pissed of the majority of most members on both forums but when the checkbook came out, he got the green light at CAP and all was forgiven. That was a warning signal that CAP should never have been allowed to prance around with their own self proclaimed certification status.

Just because it is a large site with many followers, it doesnt mean it doesnt belong here

https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

The way i look at it, they have a strong bias towards those who pay for a label that isnt worth anything other than their promotional efforts and duping players into thinking it is a creditable site to play on.

Dom is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Here and CAP is a contradiction in terms. I dont always agree with CM's choices of sites but there is consistency and a true evaluation of a gaming sites worth. CAP is a portal with its own merits, some good, some bad but it should never be allowed to offer its expertize (certification) to sites with a blindfold on. They only give the rogue sites a foothold in this industry which is laden with scammers and the easy buck mentality.
 
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