Stopping the reels make a difference ?

[jamie]

I have been playing with play money at an RTG Casino and wonder if stopping the reels actually affects the outcome ? Seems like it does but ---??

Thanks ,
Jamie

 

[Balthazar]

Seems like it does

It shouldn't because the reels stop after you get the answer (ie: the result of your spin) from the server.

 

[dunover]

We've recently had this in detail on another thread. NO difference at all. Your win has already been selected, and you are downloading a video simulation of the reels reflecting your win (or not). Stopping the video just simply means you can play more spins per hour. That's why they do it.

 

[Deanna]

This reminds there was something I did want to ask in the other thread and didn't get around to it.

If it's already predertmined, does that also include the bonus that you'll get if it's a feature where you say pick "1 of 3" bonuses? If this doesn't make sense my example (and reason I'm asking) is Texas Tycoon. If you get 3 oil wells does it matter which one you pick or is it already determined that it's going to be 8 wins or 25 regardless? I stress over which one I'm picking and wonder if it really matters, maybe whichever one I pick is going to be 8 no matter what.

Just wondering if anyone knows! Thanks!

 

[dunover]

This reminds there was something I did want to ask in the other thread and didn't get around to it.

If it's already predertmined, does that also include the bonus that you'll get if it's a feature where you say pick "1 of 3" bonuses? If this doesn't make sense my example (and reason I'm asking) is Texas Tycoon. If you get 3 oil wells does it matter which one you pick or is it already determined that it's going to be 8 wins or 25 regardless? I stress over which one I'm picking and wonder if it really matters, maybe whichever one I pick is going to be 8 no matter what.

Just wondering if anyone knows! Thanks!

Yes, 'pick' type wins are preselected. The fact that often slots show you the other picks you didn't take and they are almost always better than the award you got is neither here nor there; simply you are seeing other possible amounts in the round. You can see this effect on MG slots by checking your balance BEFORE you pick and you know then which 'random' win your play has already preselected.....

 

[Balthazar]

Yes, 'pick' type wins are preselected.

If they are (which I highly doubt), they aren't supposed to be.

You can see this effect on MG slots by checking your balance BEFORE you pick and you know then which 'random' win your play has already preselected.....

You can see this AFTER you've selected an option and AFTER the pick has been sent to the RNG.

 

[dionysus]

If they are (which I highly doubt), they aren't supposed to be.



You can see this AFTER you've selected an option and AFTER the pick has been sent to the RNG.

They are. As recent as this week, I've spoken to one of the game developers. He freely admits, whether you 'play' the mini-game or not, the result is the same. If you'd like 2 examples, look at Squirrel Pike and Arctic at 3Dice. You can poke squirrels or choose stairs for mults and spins. But it's really irrelevant at the system has determined what the free spins and mult total will be from the stairs or the total from squirrels chosen regardless of which ones you choose.

 

[dunover]

If they are (which I highly doubt), they aren't supposed to be.



You can see this AFTER you've selected an option and AFTER the pick has been sent to the RNG.

Aren't supposed to be? Who says? If you think about it, a pick round is really a different video representation (to liven up slot play) of an amount you could win on a spin. All you do is 'uncover' it instead of seeing reels. The amount is still random. The other amounts 'exposed' after you pick could be anything. They could put a picture of a hedgehog's testicles in the the other places once you have seen your win amount, it really doesn't matter.

If you really believe the pick sends a signal to the RNG AFTER the spin which awards the pick is completed, well...
All you are doing is instructing the graphics to change, exactly the same as you are when pressing 'stop' on the reels for quicker spins.

If you think about it, what you say is highly unlikely. We know reels are irrelevant, and are graphics from the server to inform you of what win you have already been awarded the microsecond you press start. So, in your scenario, this video hasn't been generated AFTER the win has been selected, but before. So you have selected a RN which selects an award with say 3 values attached to it, which you then select another RN for AFTER the graphics have been sent to your PC, which then awards you 1 of those 3 amounts and then changes your graphics? I doubt it. Not necessary and could be problematic.

 

[Balthazar]

Aren't supposed to be? Who says?

I've not read all license agreements, but I know that it would be illegal to operate such a slot in land based casinos here (and we have all kinds of slots from the major providers):

"The outcome of a game on a slot machine must rest at all times on randomness even when the player can make choices."

Since land based casinos use softwares that are similar (and sometimes identical) to online slots, there's a good reason to believe that they use the same technology (for a lack of a better word) to "redistribute" the RTP. I'd also not be surprised if such a rule would exist in most online casino licensing agreements.

Also, the 3Dice rep stated recently on this forum that according to their license agreement, they have to treat all free spins individually like regular spins (and not as a bunch) and that he would be very surprised if all the major online casino providers would be any different than them.

Edit:
Source: https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...e-spin-options-in-games-does-it-matter.54883/

So with the informations that I have, everything points out that choices have to be random, and so are free spins.

 

[Balthazar]

They are. As recent as this week, I've spoken to one of the game developers. He freely admits, whether you 'play' the mini-game or not, the result is the same. If you'd like 2 examples, look at Squirrel Pike and Arctic at 3Dice. You can poke squirrels or choose stairs for mults and spins. But it's really irrelevant at the system has determined what the free spins and mult total will be from the stairs or the total from squirrels chosen regardless of which ones you choose.

Then your software developers should have a chat with Enzo, because he said the complete opposite. He also said that they were bound to it by regulatory requirements:



This was in response to "Picking free spin options in games .. does it matter?"

 

[dionysus]

Why? Determining HOW many free spins you're going to receive in your FS round (from your single spin) doesn't negate what Enzo said there. Just because the game knows your FS is going to 20 x say 5, before you pick them, doesnt mean it's not sending you 20 independent spins. One is not contrary to the other at all.

 

[Balthazar]

Why? Determining HOW many free spins you're going to receive in your FS round (from your single spin) doesn't negate what Enzo said there. Just because the game knows your FS is going to 20 x say 5, before you pick them, doesnt mean it's not sending you 20 independent spins. One is not contrary to the other at all.

I'm not familiar with 3dice, do all the possible outcomes have the same RTP? (20 x 1 or 5 x 4...)

 

[dionysus]

As far as I know, the RTP is the same regardless of best size or mults. Pretty much all their games are very high variance. What I like, is their programmers actually pop in chat, so you can actually ask them or him if he's in a lot of the questions. When you see the FS or 'pick me' results, you see a lot of common wins. The results (big hits) of games come across chat pretty much as they're hit. The nice thing about it, is the results of everyone are VERY transparent (win wise, not loss wise lol).

 

[Balthazar]

As far as I know, the RTP is the same regardless of best size or mults. Pretty much all their games are very high variance. What I like, is their programmers actually pop in chat, so you can actually ask them or him if he's in a lot of the questions. When you see the FS or 'pick me' results, you see a lot of common wins. The results (big hits) of games come across chat pretty much as they're hit. The nice thing about it, is the results of everyone are VERY transparent (win wise, not loss wise lol).

What I meant is if your pick is irrelevant, then the TRTP must stay the same for all possible outcomes. If it's possible to pick 20 spins at x5 multiplier but also possible to pick 20 spins at x2 multiplier, and it's predetermined, then it's NOT ok.

But if your options are 20 spins at x1, 10 spins at x2 and 5 spins at x4, then predetermined or not won't change your bonus TRTP and it would make it ok (although a bit unethical IMO).

 

[Deanna]

I feel so stupid right now trying to understand all this.

3 Oil Rigs pop up but I can't see the result on Texas Tycoon.
Is the result going to be "8 FS" no matter if I pick A, B or C Oil Rig? Or is it really A=8 FS, B=25 FS, and C=10 FS and if happen to pick B I get the 25 FS?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse I just can't seem to figure out the answer reading through all the posts!

 

[the_riz]

Yes, 'pick' type wins are preselected. The fact that often slots show you the other picks you didn't take and they are almost always better than the award you got is neither here nor there; simply you are seeing other possible amounts in the round. You can see this effect on MG slots by checking your balance BEFORE you pick and you know then which 'random' win your play has already preselected.....

Actually not always the case. An example would be the "Hitman" MG slot pick bonus. If say you pick reel 1 the first time in a session it will always be highest. next time you hit reel 2 will be the highest then reel 3. If you pick reel 3 first then that will be lowest. Its preselected in the fact that it will have the highest in sequence every time the bonus hits but you still have to hit them in sequence. Im very sure "The Osbournes" does this as well.

 

[dunover]

We are going off at a slight tangent here - the OP asked whether 'pick' features were preselected, and these don't necessarily relate to freespins or multipliers, but cash amounts too.
We are agreeing they are, and the problem here is that some cannot equate this fact with 'randomness'.
What I am saying, and seemingly Dionysus, is that the OUTCOME is preselected on the pick rounds VIA the RNG, so having a pseudo videographic AFTER the RNG has been tapped is NOT compromising randomness or unethical. When you do the 'random pick' bit the random part has already happened. You are simply choosing on a videographic ex post facto to EXPOSE your win/award.
You could argue that even showing reels spinning is 'unethical' as the outcome is already decided. If that were the case, you may as well just play a blank screen with a cash balance in it. You press enter, and your cash balance goes down by your stake, or up if you win. (this is basically what we are doing gambling online) but we are all in it to be ENTERTAINED as well as gamble.
The entertainment part of it, whether reels, picks or video effects comes AFTER the RNG result. If people understood this these questions would occur far less.

 

[Balthazar]

We are going off at a slight tangent here - the OP asked whether 'pick' features were preselected, and these don't necessarily relate to freespins or multipliers, but cash amounts too.
We are agreeing they are, and the problem here is that some cannot equate this fact with 'randomness'.
What I am saying, and seemingly Dionysus, is that the OUTCOME is preselected on the pick rounds VIA the RNG, so having a pseudo videographic AFTER the RNG has been tapped is NOT compromising randomness or unethical. When you do the 'random pick' bit the random part has already happened. You are simply choosing on a videographic ex post facto to EXPOSE your win/award.
You could argue that even showing reels spinning is 'unethical' as the outcome is already decided. If that were the case, you may as well just play a blank screen with a cash balance in it. You press enter, and your cash balance goes down by your stake, or up if you win. (this is basically what we are doing gambling online) but we are all in it to be ENTERTAINED as well as gamble.
The entertainment part of it, whether reels, picks or video effects comes AFTER the RNG result. If people understood this these questions would occur far less.

Here's a little test for you: Next time that you play a slot and you have a choice to make, disconnect from the internet and click on an option. You won't be able to do it because when you pick one the software has to make a request to the server (RNG) and THEN show you what it is. If it was part of the spin, you'd be able to see it anyway since you'd already have the data locally.

On the other hand, if you play Keno on MG, as soon as you click "play" you can see your "new" balance in the lobby of the software, even if the game isn't completed. Disconnecting after clicking play won't change anything: the game will continue and the cash balance will be updated, because you already have the data locally.

That's the 3rd thing that I bring to the table to support my theory, and you've yet to bring a single one. You'll have to work harder here dunover.

 

[dionysus]

Well, I'm basing my post on the words of the guy who actually WROTE the software.

 

[dunover]

Here's a little test for you: Next time that you play a slot and you have a choice to make, disconnect from the internet and click on an option. You won't be able to do it because when you pick one the software has to make a request to the server (RNG) and THEN show you what it is. If it was part of the spin, you'd be able to see it anyway since you'd already have the data locally.
On the other hand, if you play Keno on MG, as soon as you click "play" you can see your "new" balance in the lobby of the software, even if the game isn't completed. Disconnecting after clicking play won't change anything: the game will continue and the cash balance will be updated, because you already have the data locally.

That's the 3rd thing that I bring to the table to support my theory, and you've yet to bring a single one. You'll have to work harder here dunover.

You've brought nothing to the table at all. You clearly don't understand the issue. OF COURSE disconnecting from the internet will prevent you from clicking an option because when disconnected you can't download the rest of the interactive videographic sequence lol

A clever but futile attempt to dig yourself out.

 

[dunover]

Actually not always the case. An example would be the "Hitman" MG slot pick bonus. If say you pick reel 1 the first time in a session it will always be highest. next time you hit reel 2 will be the highest then reel 3. If you pick reel 3 first then that will be lowest. Its preselected in the fact that it will have the highest in sequence every time the bonus hits but you still have to hit them in sequence. Im very sure "The Osbournes" does this as well.

OK, you agree they are preselected but this example encroaches upon the 'randomness' question because that shoudn't happen!

 

[dionysus]

OK, you agree they are preselected but this example encroaches upon the 'randomness' question because that shoudn't happen!

and it doesnt. I've gotten the lowest on choice one

 

[Nifty29]

I feel so stupid right now trying to understand all this.

3 Oil Rigs pop up but I can't see the result on Texas Tycoon.
Is the result going to be "8 FS" no matter if I pick A, B or C Oil Rig? Or is it really A=8 FS, B=25 FS, and C=10 FS and if happen to pick B I get the 25 FS?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse I just can't seem to figure out the answer reading through all the posts!

Actually, an RTG game tester who used to post here told us that Texas tycoon is one of the only RTG slots where the icon you choose makes a difference.

I will pm him and ask him to chime in.

 

[Balthazar]

You've brought nothing to the table at all. You clearly don't understand the issue. OF COURSE disconnecting from the internet will prevent you from clicking an option because when disconnected you can't download the rest of the interactive videographic sequence lol

What? Everything is already downloaded and stored locally. If it works for Keno, it should work for "pick me" too.

 

[Balthazar]

Well, I'm basing my post on the words of the guy who actually WROTE the software.

Could you please answer my question? It's important. If you say that the all the picks don't have the same TRTP then I'm going to PM Enzo.

 

[dionysus]

Uh, why then wouldn't you anyway if you have the means? Seem to me to make more sense to go ask him if you're able. What I said was the picks are predetermined...whether you pick them or let them play out, it's the same result. Enzo's said this. The programmer's said this. Feel free to PM him. If you want answers seems the smart choice.

 

[dunover]

What? Everything is already downloaded and stored locally. If it works for Keno, it should work for "pick me" too.

Yes, usually, and as you say in the Keno example it is, but I did say picks are an INTERACTIVE videographic so requires a connection at the time. It comes in 2 packets.

 

[dunover]

and it doesnt. I've gotten the lowest on choice one

I'm glad you said that. I always pick the same reel3 every time I get that darned feature....

 

[dionysus]

I'm glad you said that. I always pick the same reel3 every time I get that darned feature....

Well, if the results were as he said, always the max on that session in reel one, everyone would be picking it.
And well, if I'm wrong, I'll eat the crow. But someone would have to show me or test it.

 

[ChillBill]

I have been playing with play money at an RTG Casino and wonder if stopping the reels actually affects the outcome ? Seems like it does

And, if you face Mecca while standing on your head whistling Dixie it increases your chances of getting 5 scatters

 

[the_riz]

and it doesnt. I've gotten the lowest on choice one

It does though. seriously. If u hit this pick bonus , choose a reel. There will be a small, medium, high value on the 3 reels. So for instance... If u chose reel 1 and it was the lowest then reel 2 will show highest and reel 3 will be lowest. next time it will move to the next reel. So reel 2 will be the highest and so on ... basically everytime you hit that bonus just hit the next reel that it was the previous time and its always gunna be highest. Not random at all. Dosnt have to start on reel one. that was an example.

 

[Nifty29]

It does though. seriously. If u hit this pick bonus , choose a reel. There will be a small, medium, high value on the 3 reels. So for instance... If u chose reel 1 and it was the lowest then reel 2 will show highest and reel 3 will be lowest. next time it will move to the next reel. So reel 2 will be the highest and so on ... basically everytime you hit that bonus just hit the next reel that it was the previous time and its always gunna be highest. Not random at all. Dosnt have to start on reel one. that was an example.

You're saying there is a skill element involved. There is not.

The TRTP is a set number. If ANY kind of skill can have an effect, the TRTP would be variable. It is not.

You can carry on believing your theory, but it is incorrect. If what you say was true, the advantage players would be all over it by now.

 

[Balthazar]

Uh, why then wouldn't you anyway if you have the means? Seem to me to make more sense to go ask him if you're able. What I said was the picks are predetermined...whether you pick them or let them play out, it's the same result. Enzo's said this. The programmer's said this. Feel free to PM him. If you want answers seems the smart choice.

3Dice has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

Dammit.

 

[dionysus]

so ask live chat..the floor managers in right now

 

[Balthazar]

so ask live chat..the floor managers in right now

I don't have the software installed on my computer and I'd rather have a public answer here for future reference. I'll wait until he clears his PM box.

 

[dionysus]

whatever works for you (FYI, you dont need to install to access live chat Old / Expired Link )
so the pm thing? doesnt need to be an issue

 

[mattsgame]

Actually, an RTG game tester who used to post here told us that Texas tycoon is one of the only RTG slots where the icon you choose makes a difference.

I will pm him and ask him to chime in.

I remember this but

If I recall correctly, wasn't it just the fact that the more scatters that landed the more chance you had to pick the 25 spins? and 5 scatters almost but guaranteed it?

 

[Nifty29]

I've had a reply regarding the "stop" button from a guy who actually does testing on RTG games:

You're 100% correct (as are most posters), the use of the stop button makes zero difference to the outcome.
The request for a result is sent once the spin is pressed, the reels start to spin, the result is received, and the reels stop.
The result that is received is the same irrespective of whether the stop function is used.

I have also asked about the free spins situation and I'm sure to have a reply soon.

Thanks to Dogboy for the help and allowing me to quote. He has his reasons for not posting personally, which some would be aware of, and they revolve around some pretty crappy treatment (in a personal sense) by the Tin Foil Hatters. Still, he has always been willing to answer my questions and help out whenever I ask....so kudos to him. It is very rare someone with such close access to software is willing to reveal important information.


Matt - you could be right mate. It's been a while. I have PM'ed him to find out the grisly truth lol

 

[Nifty29]

I have a reply regarding the free spins question.

Interesting reading!

Yep, most pick features on-line work as follows:
1) If the reel stop locations (which are, as you know, determined individually and randomly) yield a trigger event, then display the pick feature
2) At the moment of trigger, the result of the pick sequence is then determined (prior to any picks being made). e.g.: If 5 spots are available to pick, it doesn't matter which one you choose, it will yield the randomly determined pick result that has already been decided
3) If this leads to free spins, each free spin is an individual event and its results are only determined when that individual free spin commences spinning

Many land-based (bricks & mortar) machines actually work the opposite way re the pick feature.
This is usually due to jurisdictional regulation, which often requires that a pick sequence not be pre-determined, or that results be randomly allocated on pick locations prior to the picks commencing.
So in B&M machines of this type, it's often the case that your picks will make a difference (this system operates in Australia as a matter of interest)

Thanks again to Dogboy!

 

[colly]

Thanks to Dogboy (via Nifty) for his usual helpful information.

 

[dunover]

Thanks Nifty, saves a lot more typing by me and Dionysus trying to convince the naysayers....

To most of us it was pretty obvious, some were unsure and I look forward to Balthazar's reply.

 

[Balthazar]

I have a reply regarding the free spins question.

Interesting reading!



Thanks again to Dogboy!

It's a very good reply Nifty! There are many answers in there. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Balthazar]

1) If the reel stop locations (which are, as you know, determined individually and randomly)

Although I changed my mind recently after seeing some evidences, I "fought" KasinoKing for a long time on this issue. I thought that the RNG was giving a single result and that result was expressed on the reels. But it's now confirmed that the reels do matter as they are stopped individually at a random spot. I want to apologize to KK on this.

Many land-based (bricks & mortar) machines actually work the opposite way re the pick feature. This is usually due to jurisdictional regulation

IMO online slots should work like that too. Why even make us pick if it doesn't matter? Waste of time.

I look forward to Balthazar's reply.

Did you read that part on the reel stops donover? I hope you'll remember it.

 

[dunover]

Although I changed my mind recently after seeing some evidences, I "fought" KasinoKing for a long time on this issue. I thought that the RNG was giving a single result and that result was expressed on the reels. But it's now confirmed that the reels do matter as they are stopped individually at a random spot. I want to apologize to KK on this.



IMO online slots should work like that too. Why even make us pick if it doesn't matter? Waste of time.



Did you read that part on the reel stops donover? I hope you'll remember it.

Well that certainly ISN'T the case on MG slots - we know that already from before. If it was we wouldn't be able to see the bank change BEFORE the reels even move! I know some mainly land-based slots work that way, but there is absolutely no need to program an online slot to have independent reel stops. In cyber world videographics allow programmers to cut corners.

 

[Balthazar]

Well that certainly ISN'T the case on MG slots

It is.

we know that already from before.

We do?

If it was we wouldn't be able to see the bank change BEFORE the reels even move!

Not relevant.

-Software sends request to RNG
-RNG stops reel 1 on position 4, reel 2 on position 2, reel 3 on position 5, reel 4 on position 7 and reel 5 on position 8.
-RNG sends result to software
-Software knows how much you win and then starts the spinning animation.

Edit: that's also the only logical reason why they would use static reels. Take IR for example, the first reel is always the same, and so is the 2nd reel, 3rd reel, 4th and 5th. (They are all different from each other though). Then when you pick a bonus round, they use a different set of static reels for each bonus. KK was right when he was claiming that you could find the RTP of a MG slot just by stripping the reels.

However, most of the features (like the wild wine) are weighted.