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So, is it too early to go public on other message boards about Vegas Affilliates?

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by rabiddog, Dec 6, 2006.

    Dec 6, 2006
  1. rabiddog

    rabiddog Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Self employed
    Location:
    dogpound USA
    Im just wondering how long we should sit around before it's time to go public on other message boards about what the Vegas Affilliate group is doing? Or really any other group if there are any for that matter. For me its been just a couple days under a month now. But I did only file with eCogra a few days ago. And PAB here a day or so before filing with eCogra.
     
  2. Dec 6, 2006
  3. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    eCogra

    If you have filed with eCogra it is best to wait before resorting to posting widely. eCogra may well decide not to pursue the complaint as once you file you should become aware of the rule about posting on message boards.
    eCogra should respond in about 2 to 3 business days to say they have received the complaint, although it could take longer for them to get all the facts and reach a decision.

    However, as they are now being arrogant and rude to Bryan, as well as a few players, I now believe this group are not behaving, and I am much less likely to believe the "massive fraud ring" excuse that was used last time.
     
  4. Dec 6, 2006
  5. rabiddog

    rabiddog Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Self employed
    Location:
    dogpound USA
    I dont remember hearing about a massive fraud ring. Is this from before the recent complaints? I wouldnt mind doing a search for that thread if I knew the title.
     
  6. Dec 6, 2006
  7. Gaahl

    Gaahl Quit Gambling

    Occupation:
    Store worker
    Location:
    Norway
    2 people like this.
  8. Dec 6, 2006
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    That's the one.

    Thats the one. It turned out that SOME of the posters had been dishonest, or at least disappeared without making a formal PAB, however, a number of other players just got caught up in this, and were similarly treated like dirt, rather than customers.
    It would seem they have learned nothing about handling such cases, and are making an even worse mess of it this time. No doubt there WILL turn out to be some fraud going on, but they must realise that normal players do not want to get caught up with it and have their money summarily confiscated without redress.
    I have enough trouble with the patchy CS of Neteller and the good casinos, so have released 1Gbyte of space by ridding myself of two mini-vegas sites, rather than sit through 5 hours of new games updates followed by the possibility of being caught up in this problem, which seems to be affecting British players as well as others.

    Our byzantine legal system has ensured that no decent British scammer would ever get caught and busted for fraud, look at the likes of Robert Maxwell (who eventually administered the punishment himself, or so we are supposed to think - no body was ever found!!)
     
  10. Dec 6, 2006
  11. rabiddog

    rabiddog Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Self employed
    Location:
    dogpound USA
    I just dont understand how this particular group is the only microgaming group Ive had problems with. Ive played other microgaming groups and havent had this kind of problem. Although at Belle Rock they did lock my account when I first started playing there. But I kinda think thats something they do on a fairly regular basis with new players. They asked for ID documents which I supplied and they re-opened my accounts and Ive had absolutely no problems cashing out with them.
     
  12. Dec 6, 2006
  13. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Problem


    Actually, that's NOT normal to lock accounts - there must have been some "special reason" that made you look as though you were up to no good. Very likely this is some kind of negative third party database, and BelleRock were satisfied that the entry was not relevant and unlocked the account.
    The norm is to hold up the first ever withdrawal till they are happy with the documents, but they never lock the account.
    Vegas Affiliates may therefore have found this negative flag, and have used this as reason enough to lock accounts and investigate. Possibly they have just decided that the flagging must be true, but don't want to let you know that is how you got "busted" in their eyes, and have decided that confiscation and locking is final.
     
  14. Dec 7, 2006
  15. rabiddog

    rabiddog Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Self employed
    Location:
    dogpound USA
    At the time Belle Rock did this, there were lots of players having this happen. I did a search here to find that. Plus that was months ago. Belle Rock just told me they needed verification documents, so I figured that was normal practice for them. It was when I was making my first cashout with them. Ive played there many times since and had no problems at all with them.

    The link Gaahl listed and that you had made reference to speaks of fraud. Ive never been told in any of the emails I was being investigated for fraud. Only that my account was being investigated. I dont gnome, I only play the games they offer, the way they are set up, and I play multiple games various numbers of times. In other words, I skip around on games. I do tend to cash out a lot on the same day I make deposits, but rarely play for a bonus so that shouldnt matter. I dont think I have given them any reason to suspect fraud, thats for sure. I evaluate a casino first by the game software, whether I like it or not, then by the speed of the cashout. If a cashout is slow, then I rarely go back to that casino, and I almost never refer anyone to them. In my eyes a casino cashout should be as fast as a poker cashout, although I know thats not true, I just think it should be.

    P.S. I have decided to wait on posting on other message boards. Its only been 6 days I think since Ive notified CM with a PAB. And I think 5 days since I filed with eCogra. So I will give those time to see what happens, and maybe CM or eCogra will be able to find out what the problem is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2006
  16. Dec 7, 2006
  17. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Fraud or not.

    It is rare for casinos to come clean about fraud. Many players tied up with the BelleRock case were simply being told to forward documents. This, in many cases, turned out to be a delaying tactic to give them time to investigate, as players who forwarded documents were then given other reasons for the delay, including the casino then asking for Notarised documents, something that is very unusual, and is a dead giveaway to a player that their account is flagged for possible fraud.

    Any time a player is told their account is "under investigation" AND it has been locked, it is 99%+ that they are under investigation for some kind of SERIOUS breach; beyond what the casino considers a minor matter that can be dealt with by the usual means of simply telling the player what they need to do, such as wager x more to meet WR.

    Recent cases seem to suggest that the casinos resort to mass account lockings and refusal to pay. One hope may be that the fraudsters will simply give up after receiving their deposit back and have a go elsewhere. Innocent players who do NOT fight hard are believed to have gone away because they are guilty, so it is essential to complain hard, and quickly, but stick to the facts and proper order at first.
    Once all legitimate channels have run their course, then it is time to get really aggressive, since at that point the player has little to lose. Most complaints get sorted before this stage, but some players have found that after becoming more aggressive with the complaint the casino somehow "finds" the mistake they made and pays up.

    This happens in business in general, with businesses only really listening at a high enough management level when complainants get aggressive to the point of causing the business bad publicity. Many times, the mistake is really stupid, and the business is made to look a right t*** when they have to publically admit that it was their mistake all along. Local authorities are the worst offenders, followed by the big utility companies with their natural partial monopolies. Casinos get away with it, despoite the lack of a monopoly, because they already have your money, leaving you, the customer, far less room to manouvre than in the case of a really stupid cock-up with a bill yet to be paid (they say "pay up" or go to court - I say go-on, take me to court and look a right D*** head in front of the judge).
     
  18. Dec 7, 2006
  19. rabiddog

    rabiddog Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Self employed
    Location:
    dogpound USA
    I have never been asked for notorized documents. Although I have read where some players have. Don't remember the casino group though. Or if it was a microgaming group.

    I certainly understand casino's as well as business's not wanting to admit a mistake made by them. Or looking bad because of it. This could all be avoided by just owning up and paying out to folks what is owed them. Not just returning deposits. To me that makes the casino look more guilty. If they would just pay winnings owed (the whole amount) things would probably just die down and I doubt anyone would even want a public appology. All I want is the money owed me, as Im sure thats probably all the others who have complained really care about. I could care less about a public appology.
     
  20. Dec 7, 2006
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Documents

    It was BelleRock that asked for notarised documents from a player, and then said it still made no difference when the player actually called their bluff and supplied them! They went so far as to ring the solicitor but claim they could never get through, yet refused to supply a number so the solicitor could call back when in. Solicitors are often unavailable to take calls on demand, due to other work, and have calls taken by assistants.
     
  22. Dec 7, 2006
  23. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
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    Bierland
    6 people like this.
  24. Dec 7, 2006
  25. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    Note that the MiniVegas group includes some casinos that are not listed on the page such as Floridita, Old Samurai, and Grand Casino Venice.
     
  26. Dec 7, 2006
  27. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    Even though I do not play at these casinos, I find all this highly disturbing. Sunny Group, now this MiniVegas group ... Once very reputable groups going nutso and totally disregarding player rights. It's a player's worst nightmare.

    (Thank you Senator Frist. :puke: )
     
  28. Dec 7, 2006
  29. Tagdog

    Tagdog Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    England
    we've seen mini vegas going rapidly down hill since july. good riddence. They seem to have played lots of underhand tricks such as confiscating deposits for minor transgressions and offering bonuses to players they had decider were high risk with the option of confiscating winnings if they won.
     
  30. Dec 7, 2006
  31. mucullus

    mucullus Experienced Member

    Location:
    Germany
    This is really sad as they were a group with few to none player complaints in the past. There has not been indicated any change of ownership or management within this group which could be evidence of some cash flow problems.

    Bryan, you mention malfunctioning games in your rogueing statement. Have there been claims made by MiniVegas in this regard?
     
  32. Dec 7, 2006
  33. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    No claims. I was only making a general statement since I can only guess at what scenarios might be involved.
     
  34. Dec 8, 2006
  35. rabiddog

    rabiddog Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Self employed
    Location:
    dogpound USA
    I would like to thank Casino Miester and eCogra for helping to resolve my issues with Old Samurai and the Vegas Affilliate group. I have been paid the winnings owed me by Old Samurai today.

    I only hope I can safely cash out of the other two casino's in this group that I have cash in. I sure dont want to go through another month of this mess.

    I also hope this casino group works hard on trying to earn back the solid reputation they once owned. Had this never happened, I would have easily put more of my money into this group for gaming. Maybe they will earn back that trust down the road with better business practice.
     
  36. Dec 8, 2006
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well I never!

    They just look so out of place in that line-up... I mean "Microgaming", cast alongside such brands as "start your own casino" and "cassinova".

    A really surreal juxtaposition of an eCogra sealholder sitting among such uninspiring company. This not only is a blow to the trust that Mini-vegas has grown over the years, it also questions how much value players place on the "reputable" label, whether applied by eCogra, or a portal such as Bryan. Thankfully, Bryan's action was so swift that I believe this should take precedence over slower acting indicators in the industry, such as eCogra and "best of" polls in gambling publications.
    The only other group to be in this position, although briefly, in my memory is Grand Prive, for allowing underage players to play so long as they were losing, and only checking properly when they won.
    Jackpot Factory don't count, because they also had their seal suspended.

    It's going to take more than "sorry" to persuade players to struggle through a 600Mbyte full reinstallation without proof positive that things really have changed back to how they were.
     
  38. Dec 8, 2006
  39. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    Why is this listed as a past issue? A player mentioned having the same underage issue a few weeks ago on 2+2 -- You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2006

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