Slotsmillion - Members input regarding a weak/wrong worded term.

[Respin_Ftw]

The highlighted area, what does it mean? Question maybe seem stupid but i need input from as many as possible.

Withdrawal limit apparently means "conversion" @ slotsmillion i´ve been told. Heres the story. I made a deposit...got deposit bonus and lost it. As a part of the promo you get 20 free spins the day after. I claimed them and won...got up to 419€, contacted the support and told them to shave off 19€ so i could withdraw the maximum of 400€.

The agent tells me that there is no max cashout, i could continue to play and win more. I asked him numerous times. I reversed and lost. The other day i asked chat again why it said 400€ withdrawal limit. He tells me that those are the rules..400€ is the maximum i can withdraw.

I was furious cause the first agent gave me wrong information...i played with a sum that already was as high as it could be.

Then after numerous mails to managers and so on, they say that there is NO max cashout...that withdrawal limit means "conversion" and that it was badly worded.

They say that dont have any max cashouts on real money.even if its on a special bonus/free spins promo. Which makes alot of their promos strange...their 100 spins promo says in the terms that "withdrawal limit" is 2000€. But still they say, if its real money there is no max cashout.

Still feels like they dont have a clue about this issue...i got 20€ with 35x wagering as a comp.

How could withdrawal limit mean something else on a specific bonus? Its all up there in the picture. How can a term be so badly worded that it fools one of the managers and 3 of the support guys? The majority of the people ive spoked with was on my side, and that i was right. In the end i was wrong (according to them).

How would you do?

 

[gagamel]

That means the max. cashout from the FS is Euro 400.00.

 

[ugaboga]

Maximum withdrawal from free spin winnings = 400e

 

[Respin_Ftw]

Even if you think the "right" answer is already typed by someone else...keep writing how you look at this term.

 

[me_and_ed]

This is the one place Slots needs to look at, I get that it is free money however places like Guts have no attachments to their spins.

 

[Respin_Ftw]

Withdrawal limit apparently means "conversion" @ slotsmillion i´ve been told. Heres the story. I made a deposit...got deposit bonus and lost it. As a part of the promo you get 20 free spins the day after. I claimed them and won...got up to 419€, contacted the support and told them to shave off 19€ so i could withdraw the maximum of 400€.

The agent tells me that there is no max cashout, i could continue to play and win more. I asked him numerous times. I reversed and lost. The other day i asked chat again why it said 400€ withdrawal limit. He tells me that those are the rules..400€ is the maximum i can withdraw.

I was furious cause the first agent gave me wrong information...i played with a sum that already was as high as it could be.

Then after numerous mails to managers and so on, they say that there is NO max cashout...that withdrawal limit means "conversion" and that it was badly worded.

They say that dont have any max cashouts on real money.even if its on a special bonus/free spins promo. Which makes alot of their promos strange...their 100 spins promo says in the terms that "withdrawal limit" is 2000€. But still they say, if its real money there is no max cashout.

Still feels like they dont have a clue about this issue...i got 20€ with 35x wagering as a comp.

How could withdrawal limit mean something else on a specific bonus? Its all up there in the picture. How can a term be so badly worded that it fools one of the managers and 3 of the support guys? The majority of the people ive spoked with was on my side, and that i was right. In the end i was wrong (according to them).

How would you do?

 

[ugaboga]

That comes across as deceptive. If you were told there was no max cashout and given incentive to continue playing... then another agent tells you that it is the max cashout.

I've always understood it to be the max cashout. It's clearly written as such. If it was 'conversion' or 'wagering requirements' it would say so.

 

[luckysox]

The highlighted area, what does it mean? Question maybe seem stupid but i need input from as many as possible.

Withdrawal limit apparently means "conversion" @ slotsmillion i´ve been told. Heres the story. I made a deposit...got deposit bonus and lost it. As a part of the promo you get 20 free spins the day after. I claimed them and won...got up to 419€, contacted the support and told them to shave off 19€ so i could withdraw the maximum of 400€.

The agent tells me that there is no max cashout, i could continue to play and win more. I asked him numerous times. I reversed and lost. The other day i asked chat again why it said 400€ withdrawal limit. He tells me that those are the rules..400€ is the maximum i can withdraw.

I was furious cause the first agent gave me wrong information...i played with a sum that already was as high as it could be.

Then after numerous mails to managers and so on, they say that there is NO max cashout...that withdrawal limit means "conversion" and that it was badly worded.

They say that dont have any max cashouts on real money.even if its on a special bonus/free spins promo. Which makes alot of their promos strange...their 100 spins promo says in the terms that "withdrawal limit" is 2000€. But still they say, if its real money there is no max cashout.

Still feels like they dont have a clue about this issue...i got 20€ with 35x wagering as a comp.

How could withdrawal limit mean something else on a specific bonus? Its all up there in the picture. How can a term be so badly worded that it fools one of the managers and 3 of the support guys? The majority of the people ive spoked with was on my side, and that i was right. In the end i was wrong (according to them).

How would you do?

View attachment 56426

Hi there,
I see that you are a bit frustrated here and I will do my best to clarify the information about the bonus and this particular case.

So, in the highlighted area you have the indication of how much real money you can get from this bonus. So in this particular case that you shared, once you have played your bonus and satisfied the 35 times the wagering requirement, you can get up to 400€ in real money. If you had ended up with winnings of 70€, they would be transferred/converted from bonus balance to your real money balance. If you had ended up with winnings of 500€, then 400€ would have
been transferred/converted from bonus balance to your real money balance.

So, you were given the right information - at this point you had converted your bonus balance to real money balance and could either withdraw it or kept playing with it. If you had won more, you could have taken out your winnings without a limit - so basically, there was no max cashout on your balance or future winnings.
I read the transcript, the agent answered clearly, you confirmed.

With this in mind, and on a lucky streak, you continued to play (I would have done the same) and unfortunately lost your winnings.

Status: you lost your winnings, your balance is zero, this is end result.

- Here is where I get lost a little, you could have withdrawn but you tried your luck (again, I would have done exactly the same) and then you lost and then you question the terms of the bonus after the fact? - it does not make sense why, but I guess it was just puzzling you and you went back to find out.

So, when you contacted us the second time to question the 400 withdrawal limit, you were told that that is how much you could cash out from a bonus. The agent told you that this is a withdrawal limit for this bonus and that it appears that we have done a mistake. He notified you that he will have a manager contact you to sort this issue out.

Thereafter, our manager contacts you and clears the terms and conditions explaining in detail that you could have won more and withdrawn more, that we did not lie to you and that the 400€ is the limit of how much real money you could win and convert from the 20 free spins. We apologised to have given you a doubt but that our initial answer was not wrong and that everything is in order. Thereafter, you received the 20€ free money bonus as a sign of good will and our apology that we gave you a doubt about the terms and conditions when you contacted us the second time.

Does this clarify the situation? I am not sure why you are upset if you were talking with the manager on the phone and from my understanding, she went through the scenario with you. The issue here is that you were temporarily given a bad answer from our agent after you lost your balance and our manager followed up with you directly.

By the way, this was all caused because of the wording “withdrawal” so we are already discussing if we are to change the wording and to what. Your suggestions are welcome.

To continue further, different bonuses have different terms/limitation based on the promotion itself, or sometimes based on your loyalty level. We tailor our offers according to player’s activity. The more active you are, the better (looser) terms and conditions you get.
So, for example, you mention our current promotion of 100 free spins having a limit of 2000€. This means that you can get up to 2000€ in real money from this 100 free spins, or in other words, that you can convert up to 2000€ bonus balance into real money balance.

I think that we have generous terms and conditions where 400€ and 2000€ are very high limits of converting 20 or 100 free spins into real money balance. There are not often players that reach these levels from 20 or 100 free spins.

We really think that we have great terms and conditions, to name a few:
You play with your real money first without locking it in - you can withdraw any time.
We have very high limit on free spins winnings instead of a final max withdrawal. Once you have wagered the winnings, you can win and withdraw as much as you want.

I hope that with this I was able to clear any doubt about our bonus terms and conditions.

 

[jackanory2279]

this is why i never use CS.. always go on your own initiative until told otherwise

 

[spintee]

I think it is abit confusing saying one thing than another but I think its straight forward after reading a few lines from sox reply,

Max win from free spins = 400, But no limit after that, If you carry on playing and win 2k than all good, So max conversion from free spins is the 400, It would be easier if it said, Max wins from spins 400, (no max cash out)

 

[winbig]

I understand the rep's reply, but I must interject.....

The wording on the FS offer page is 1000% ambiguous. It needs to be clarified on the page ASAP before more players have issue with it. Apparently not all CSR's working for the casino really understand the wording, either, as one rep went as far to tell her that the max cashout for the FS is 400E. Not "the total amount you can transfer to your real money balance is 400E after the free spins." <- in which it should be explained verbatim on the page pictured in previous posts. There's quite a difference in meaning of cashout/withdrawal limit and convert to real money balance.

I know casinos want to cover their asses 1000000% when it comes to T&C, so why, in this day and age, would any casino knowingly have an ambiguous term listed on a promotion page?

edit: I just looked a little closer. Why is the field "Bonus maximum" blank? This hasn't even been brought up yet.

If it were me as a player, there would be no confusion if the 400E limit was listed in that field and the withdrawal limit field was blank, instead. Come to think of it, if there's nothing immoral/ruthless going on here, then why in the world would they have the "withdrawal limit" field right next to the "bonus maximum" field????? Shouldn't it be one or the other????

Agreed? Your thoughts?

 

[spintee]

I original missed the max withdraw bit, That is 100% misleading it should state max wins 400,


With the other bits blank than I think they use this as a template for other bonus's, I could be wrong but have not personally came across this before,

I understand the rep's reply, but I must interject.....

The wording on the FS offer page is 1000% ambiguous. It needs to be clarified on the page ASAP before more players have issue with it. Apparently not all CSR's working for the casino really understand the wording, either, as one rep went as far to tell her that the max cashout for the FS is 400E. Not "the total amount you can transfer to your real money balance is 400E after the free spins." <- in which it should be explained verbatim on the page pictured in previous posts. There's quite a difference in meaning of cashout/withdrawal limit and convert to real money balance.

I know casinos want to cover their asses 1000000% when it comes to T&C, so why, in this day and age, would any casino knowingly have an ambiguous term listed on a promotion page?

edit: I just looked a little closer. Why is the field "Bonus maximum" blank? This hasn't even been brought up yet.

If it were me as a player, there would be no confusion if the 400E limit was listed in that field and the withdrawal limit field was blank, instead. Come to think of it, if there's nothing immoral/ruthless going on here, then why in the world would they have the "withdrawal limit" field right next to the "bonus maximum" field????? Shouldn't it be one or the other????

Agreed? Your thoughts?

 

[Adriana B]

I have found their CS reps extremely pleasant, however, I do feel that there are a lot of things that they are not knowledgeable in. They seem to give out wrong information.

 

[winbig]

Don't get me wrong. I feel that the OP "took one for the team" this time, and others should learn from their experience. I'm in no way advocating for the casino to pay out the funds so that the OP would have a "fresh start," as it was the OP's decision, once told the second go around by CS that there was indeed no maximum cashout associated with this bonus, to play out the remainder of their balance trying to win more money. This is a common misconception of all gamblers. We believe that we should continue playing once we're on a hot streak, and that it will continue for an indefinite period of time.

Personally, I would have immediately stopped playing in order to get in touch with one of the casino managers (this could also have been accomplished during one of the CS chat sessions by asking to speak with a supervisor...) in order to get a proper and final decision on what exactly "withdrawal limit" really meant. Heck, if I don't understand a term that the casino has for a bonus that they're offering, I will clarify everything before redeeming said bonus and well before I even deposited or played one penny. But, hindsight is 20/20 in this case.

Even so, do I think it's right? Not by any means. What it all boils down to is the bonus terms are very ambiguous. And I reiterate, they should be changed ASAP to avoid further confusion.

 

[winbig]

FWIW: (Quite the difference...)

with·draw·al
wiT͟Hˈdrôl,wiTHˈdrôl/
noun
noun: withdrawal

the action of withdrawing something.
"the withdrawal of legal aid"
synonyms: removal, abolition, cancellation, discontinuation, termination, elimination
"the withdrawal of subsidies"
an act of taking money out of an account.
plural noun: withdrawals
a sum of money withdrawn from an account.
"a $30,000 cash withdrawal"

con·vert
verb
verb: convert; 3rd person present: converts; past tense: converted; past participle: converted; gerund or present participle: converting
kənˈvərt/

1.
cause to change in form, character, or function.
"production processes that converted raw material into useful forms"
synonyms: change, turn, transform, metamorphose, transfigure, transmute; More
humoroustransmogrify;
technicalpermute
"plants convert the sun's energy into chemical energy"
change or be able to change from one form to another.
"the seating converts to a double or two single beds"
change one's religious faith or other beliefs.
"at sixteen he converted to Catholicism"
persuade (someone) to do this.
"he was converted in his later years to the socialist cause"
synonyms: proselytize, evangelize, bring to God, redeem, save, reform, re-educate, cause to see the light

....

 

[Respin_Ftw]

And what added to my confusion was that the Manager Lady @ Slotsmillion told me this when i asked about the scenario of getting the 400 back - "If they decide to put the 400€ back into your account it will indeed have a MAX CASHOUT of 400€ so you must withdraw it"

So 2 managers who shall remain nameless...and 2 of the support guys didnt even know about this!??

And the rep Luckysox tried to help me but did a 360 when getting in contact with someone in the casino. "we did comp you etc etc"..

It was like everyone was handed this info today from someone higher up because prior to today i was getting atleast 200€ back.

Im sorry but it still feels like as someone said "took one for the team" or flat out being played with.

And Luckysox, you asked why i brought this to light after i busted? Let me tell you why - I claimed another bonus that had a 20 free spins promo aswell. This time i checked properly and it said "withdrawal limit 400€", i went to the support and asked why it said that...and i will supply the CS answer here:





Later when discussing that i have been given the wrong information, that it wasnt a Max Withdrawal i received this:



But now there is NO max? confusing or what

What i find strange is that no one seems to know or knew how the sign up bonus worked? Not even the managers...bad screw up, good cover up? or?

 

[Respin_Ftw]

This story has so much holes in it im sorry to say. You say you are duscussing the changing of the words? The manager told me that as of wednesday it WILL be changed. You as a rep should know this before me especially as you work in marketing.

The manager did not call and "sort things out"! She called and i explained everything to her...she was 100% on my side she said. She couldnt understand how the CS could have missed this basic info etc. I explained the whole scenario to her. We hung up and she went to talk with her boss about comp.

And this is where the story changes...suddenly when we speak again she knows everything, about the "bad worded term" about no max cashout (forgetting that she 30 min earlier said that if i get them back i must withdraw cause of the 400€ WD limit.

This is not an issue cause of one wrong word, this is an issue because your CS, even managers didnt even know about this. And i took the hit....and it will be changed from wednesday. All for the price of one customer and 20€!

Hi there,
I see that you are a bit frustrated here and I will do my best to clarify the information about the bonus and this particular case.

So, in the highlighted area you have the indication of how much real money you can get from this bonus. So in this particular case that you shared, once you have played your bonus and satisfied the 35 times the wagering requirement, you can get up to 400€ in real money. If you had ended up with winnings of 70€, they would be transferred/converted from bonus balance to your real money balance. If you had ended up with winnings of 500€, then 400€ would have
been transferred/converted from bonus balance to your real money balance.

So, you were given the right information - at this point you had converted your bonus balance to real money balance and could either withdraw it or kept playing with it. If you had won more, you could have taken out your winnings without a limit - so basically, there was no max cashout on your balance or future winnings.
I read the transcript, the agent answered clearly, you confirmed.

With this in mind, and on a lucky streak, you continued to play (I would have done the same) and unfortunately lost your winnings.

Status: you lost your winnings, your balance is zero, this is end result.

- Here is where I get lost a little, you could have withdrawn but you tried your luck (again, I would have done exactly the same) and then you lost and then you question the terms of the bonus after the fact? - it does not make sense why, but I guess it was just puzzling you and you went back to find out.

So, when you contacted us the second time to question the 400 withdrawal limit, you were told that that is how much you could cash out from a bonus. The agent told you that this is a withdrawal limit for this bonus and that it appears that we have done a mistake. He notified you that he will have a manager contact you to sort this issue out.

Thereafter, our manager contacts you and clears the terms and conditions explaining in detail that you could have won more and withdrawn more, that we did not lie to you and that the 400€ is the limit of how much real money you could win and convert from the 20 free spins. We apologised to have given you a doubt but that our initial answer was not wrong and that everything is in order. Thereafter, you received the 20€ free money bonus as a sign of good will and our apology that we gave you a doubt about the terms and conditions when you contacted us the second time.

Does this clarify the situation? I am not sure why you are upset if you were talking with the manager on the phone and from my understanding, she went through the scenario with you. The issue here is that you were temporarily given a bad answer from our agent after you lost your balance and our manager followed up with you directly.

By the way, this was all caused because of the wording “withdrawal” so we are already discussing if we are to change the wording and to what. Your suggestions are welcome.

To continue further, different bonuses have different terms/limitation based on the promotion itself, or sometimes based on your loyalty level. We tailor our offers according to player’s activity. The more active you are, the better (looser) terms and conditions you get.
So, for example, you mention our current promotion of 100 free spins having a limit of 2000€. This means that you can get up to 2000€ in real money from this 100 free spins, or in other words, that you can convert up to 2000€ bonus balance into real money balance.

I think that we have generous terms and conditions where 400€ and 2000€ are very high limits of converting 20 or 100 free spins into real money balance. There are not often players that reach these levels from 20 or 100 free spins.

We really think that we have great terms and conditions, to name a few:
You play with your real money first without locking it in - you can withdraw any time.
We have very high limit on free spins winnings instead of a final max withdrawal. Once you have wagered the winnings, you can win and withdraw as much as you want.

I hope that with this I was able to clear any doubt about our bonus terms and conditions.

 

[hausse222]

I also thought that "withdrawal limit" means the sum you can withdraw if you fullfill the wr and win with the freespins bonus afterwards. So i found the freespins promotions not very attractive (till now ?).

Edit: After reading luckysoxs post again i think that the conditions are good, but i also think nearly no player does understand this.

 

[hedgehok]

Always use your brain and your intuition, never trust the CS, accredited or not!
So sorry for those €400 and really stupid to explain it with "conversation". Yes makes a lot of sense when you see it technically. But to encourage further play when you can't cashout any more is utterly pointless.

 

[ugaboga]

I can see how you're feeling.

At the time, they encouraged you to continue playing as you would more than likely bust.

Now they tell you there was no max withdrawal and if you won anything above the 400e you would have kept it regardless.

So the essence of their stance is that you lost fair and square, and had you won, they would have let you withdraw the entire time.

 

[winbig]

It all boils down to the fact that they decided to keep playing in (albeit miniscule) hopes of winning even more money.

If their balance would have suddenly risen to $5k, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

 

[luckysox]

It all boils down to the fact that they decided to keep playing in (albeit miniscule) hopes of winning even more money.

If their balance would have suddenly risen to $5k, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

Good morning everyone!

We really work towards offering a nice and smooth experience in our casino, there is no intention no use of being misleading for anyone. We listen carefully and gladly use your feedback to improve your experience and as you can see, there is still room for improvement.

We are fair, and treat our players fairly. That is the reasoning behind offering such good terms and conditions and also making them as transparent as possible. In this case we have a term that is not the most intuitive and we are going to change it. We designed it in order to present the terms in a more clear way, not to confuse anyone.

At no point did we change the terms of this offer, we consider the terms to be fair and have received lots of positive feedback about fair terms (I think we have the most fair bonus terms out there - maybe not the most generous like "no wagering on free spins winning" but we have to limit our costs at some point). I understand that in this case Respin_Ftw was on a hot winning streak and his luck turned around (which sucks but happens too often) and then he received wrong information from one of our agents who was not up to date - I can feel the frustration. Again we apologise for the mixup, in this case it was only a misunderstanding and there were no funds missing or affected in any way.

Thank you for all the feedback, it is valuable and it does make a difference.

Now that everyone knows the terms, welcome to try us out and take advantage of our double whammy promotion this week where you get 100 free spins per day + the offer can be combined with the welcome offer.

 

[Respin_Ftw]

... and then he received wrong information from one of our agents who was not up to date ...

Its the other way around Luckysox. One agent was indeed up to date. Everyone else was wrong, incl the managers. But it is what it is. Im not saying Slotsmillion is a bad place to play at. It´s a good Casino. Problems do occur...its how you solve them that matters.

 

[hedgehok]

If you had ended up with winnings of 500€, then 400€ would have
been transferred/converted from bonus balance to your real money balance.

Thereafter, our manager contacts you and clears the terms and conditions explaining in detail that you could have won more and withdrawn more, that we did not lie to you and that the 400€ is the limit of how much real money you could win and convert from the 20 free spins.

So, for example, you mention our current promotion of 100 free spins having a limit of 2000€. This means that you can get up to 2000€ in real money from this 100 free spins, or in other words, that you can convert up to 2000€ bonus balance into real money balance.

What happens with the excess that does not get converted into real money?
Does it stay bonus money? Does it have any addition WR and you can withdraw the whole lot then?

You stated that the manager told that the OP could have played on to win more and withdraw more. If this would be the case then you have to eloborate how this is supposed to happen. Otherwise it's just misleading and the withdrawal limit is 400€ and the additional funds are just some sticky credits that he won't ever withdraw.

Of course he can play more and WIN more (at least the numbers on your monitor get higher) but with no prospect of ever withdrawing any of the winnings that happen.

In OP's example let's asume he wouldn't have busted but get up to €1000 and withdrew - you would have payed him the whole 1000€? Then why do you have a "withdrawal" limit in your bonus-describtion?

At no point did we change the terms of this offer, we consider the terms to be fair and have received lots of positive feedback about fair terms (I think we have the most fair bonus terms out there - maybe not the most generous like "no wagering on free spins winning" but we have to limit our costs at some point).

Well you limit free spins you have to trigger with real-money play. There are many competitors that don't do that (MrGreen, V&J, betat, SlottyVegas to name a few). If it would be a real freebie like a level-up or a comp for losses that's absolutely fine but you limit free spins derived by real-money play which I find reasonably fair but not the most fair bonus terms out there.

Let me try to give you a suggestion how to improve:
It's fine to limit free spin winnings, even if they are derived from real-money play as long as you clearly state the terms. I really like that you clearly show the terms on the free-spins button. I would formulate it as "withdrawal cap". In this case the player knows he can continue playing even if he's over the withdrawal cap for some play-time but can withdraw when he reaches the cap.

 

[luckysox]

What happens with the excess that does not get converted into real money?
Does it stay bonus money? Does it have any addition WR and you can withdraw the whole lot then?

You stated that the manager told that the OP could have played on to win more and withdraw more. If this would be the case then you have to eloborate how this is supposed to happen. Otherwise it's just misleading and the withdrawal limit is 400€ and the additional funds are just some sticky credits that he won't ever withdraw.

Of course he can play more and WIN more (at least the numbers on your monitor get higher) but with no prospect of ever withdrawing any of the winnings that happen.

In OP's example let's asume he wouldn't have busted but get up to €1000 and withdrew - you would have payed him the whole 1000€? Then why do you have a "withdrawal" limit in your bonus-describtion?


Well you limit free spins you have to trigger with real-money play. There are many competitors that don't do that (MrGreen, V&J, betat, SlottyVegas to name a few). If it would be a real freebie like a level-up or a comp for losses that's absolutely fine but you limit free spins derived by real-money play which I find reasonably fair but not the most fair bonus terms out there.

Let me try to give you a suggestion how to improve:
It's fine to limit free spin winnings, even if they are derived from real-money play as long as you clearly state the terms. I really like that you clearly show the terms on the free-spins button. I would formulate it as "withdrawal cap". In this case the player knows he can continue playing even if he's over the withdrawal cap for some play-time but can withdraw when he reaches the cap.

Hi hedgehok!
all right, let me divide up your questions and answer one by one.

1. The excess is automatically removed from your bonus money balance once the funds are converted to real money balance. Once you complete your wagering requirements, the existing funds are automatically transferred/converted over to your real balance.

2. Once you are playing with your real money balance, there is not withdrawal limit. So in this case, if OP had won 1000€, we would of course pay out 1000€.

3. I think that a term like “Max Real Win” or “Max Real Money Win” would be more appropriate. We will update it soon.


I hope this helps clarify further.