RTP (Return to Player ) posts from another thread

Slottery

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No idea what has been going on with regards to recent posts and the creation of this thread BUT I'd like to add something.

I'd like to see the accounts of these casinos who are dropping the RTP on certain slots. I'd like to bet that they are still making a healthy profit on the 96% setting and id also wager the reason for the drop is because they want to maintain the profits of yesteryear.

So, I ask, why should the player suffer because some shareholders/owners want their cake as big as it was 5 years ago?
Only publicly-listed companies have to share their numbers, but they are available for all to see every quarter. Kindred, Aspire and many others have all their numbers available, Q1 results were published just little while ago, these can be actually quite interest to read through how some of these companies have developed (if you read quartal reports few years back, you can see how they have changed their strategies or what have changed things), if you check Aspire Q1 results, it's unfortunately not looking that bad player experience with minimal RTP:s is really bad way to run online casino. Unibet who have all the highest RTP settings and some extra high for few games for some markets probably take quite a bit of that RTP back in their deposit fees and maybe also cover it for while by giving 75 redundancies.

I'm probably living in more cynical world in my head as i don't see any reason why some companies wouldn't try to maximize their winning or make business decisions that let's make less money this year, just to that to make some people happy. Actually playing slots been quite free from inflation, costs for playing some games have been exactly same years and years for players when at same time, most of products and services have their prices increased, most of industries have reached increasing expenses and very few are willing to pay all themselves but make at least part to be paid by customers way or another but preferably not cost of profits.

I really struggle to get any examples about companies who would be happy to intentionally make smaller profits to their owners, RTP is just really small part in that puzzle where casinos see it benefical still offer it (some have changed their minds but probably there always be some offering it, now less than year ago, year from this, nobody knows).
 
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slot_zombie

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Keeping on topic I have seen sky Vegas have launched skyvegas megaways at a whopping 93.0% RTP. No jackpot linked to the slot either
This is fast becoming an insult, every week new RTP problems for the player, flying thick and fast from every angle. Lower than brick and mortar casinos in the UK. Bravo....
 

Halvor

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So, I ask, why should the player suffer because some shareholders/owners want their cake as big as it was 5 years ago?
It's a business, the aim for any company is to make a profit.

I'd you don't like the rtp then choose a casino with different settings.
 

Mr_Slot5

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It's a business, the aim for any company is to make a profit.

I'd you don't like the rtp then choose a casino with different settings.
But businesses with big turnovers have a big social responsibility. When is enough profit enough profit?

This is what is wrong more widely today and why we're seeing the average guy becoming more and more disillusioned with growing gap between the haves and have nots. It's capitalism on steroids.
 

Kroffe

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But businesses with big turnovers have a big social responsibility. When is enough profit enough profit?

This is what is wrong more widely today and why we're seeing the average guy becoming more and more disillusioned with growing gap between the haves and have nots. It's capitalism on steroids.
The casino-business is also unique in that you can increase the price on a product identical to what your competitors are selling, and still make more money somehow.

If you had 10 stores all selling the same thing, but one was more expensive, they wouldnt make more money, they would go out of business.
 

Slottery

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Casinos trying to make much money as possible and players win much as possible, money have quite a big role in this commercial entertainment.

The casino-business is also unique in that you can increase the price on a product identical to what your competitors are selling, and still make more money somehow.

If you had 10 stores all selling the same thing, but one was more expensive, they wouldnt make more money, they would go out of business.
End product is very similar, ingredients it's made have different costs for all which makes casinos different, others can do things others can and some can pay much less for certain operations due to better tehcnology when other still doing something manually. There are surprisingly lot things some still do manually and some do same almost fully automated. Even casino platforms are really different if developed within the last two years or 10 years ago which is one of the reasons why all casinos can't make success with the same pricing of their products and ending up to different pricings in many areas.

But businesses with big turnovers have a big social responsibility. When is enough profit enough profit?

This is what is wrong more widely today and why we're seeing the average guy becoming more and more disillusioned with growing gap between the haves and have nots. It's capitalism on steroids.
Guess that bolded one is after all major thing when you do business, not many start to fulltime business without target to make money or decide at some point that let's give vall 50% wager free cashback (number not based on any facts but just random) and we still can break even and pay our salaries instead of making that 50% more profit from every spin. Thing probably might change when you come to billionaire but don't know many people who would have their childhood dream to build non-profit online casino, it still don't make any good like charities but only take money from it's customers and for some cause even problems, so if willing to make some charity, there probably are some more important (in most people opinion i would guess) than run non-profit online casino which you never can turn as good cause, don't matter who cheap you sell your product, as long it takes more than gives. Helping kids, homeless and such things are more popular in that are.

If you take investment loan to start your business, making it successful is quiet top of most wish list. Also trying to get investors to share risk is easier if you don't start to explain your business plan to be more customer friendly company making less profit than average (there you can end up but most don't plan it if they decide to invest their time and money plus usually loan to start one).
 
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Reelsoffun

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This is fast becoming an insult, every week new RTP problems for the player, flying thick and fast from every angle. Lower than brick and mortar casinos in the UK. Bravo....
I, as well as @Harry_BKK said many months ago that the RTP reduction at VS was just the start of a much wider industry trend so its nothing new happening right now.

People can still choose where to play but I still maintain that ALL casinos will lower in time one way or another.

As for being lower than brick and mortar casinos in the UK I would like to know where you play and which games as my local casino has 90% for years as did a lot of London ones I frequented, so online is still higher in all cases that I know of.

People need to stop moaning, if you don't like it, don't play online or go somewhere that still currently offers the higher RTP, but also I consider and factor in everything as the old saying "too good to be true" could also apply to those places offering the MAX RTP.

Why are staying at max when others are not? How are they sustaining it? and will they forever?

One of the biggest reasons that online casinos thrived in the first place for slots was they were offering way above land based RTP in the first place, now online gaming is firmly mainstream and that most gamblers are comfortable playing online it was inevitable that they were going to close the RTP gap IMO its probably been planned for some time.

Bottom line. if your luck's in your still gonna win :)
 

CasinoNinja

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As for being lower than brick and mortar casinos in the UK I would like to know where you play and which games as my local casino has 90% for years as did a lot of London ones I frequented, so online is still higher in all cases that I know of.
Isn't it 94%+ in all UK casinoes, I'm pretty sure they are.
Even a few of the bookies games have higher RTP than the casinos now, there is one game that runs at 95%!
 

Reelsoffun

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Well for obvious reasons I not been to a land based in a while but last time i looked there was definitely some on 90% and have seen games at 90% in London casinos as long as 4 yrs ago. From experience people tend to look at RTP on land based even less than online players!

When they reopen and i go I will now make it my mission to have a good look :)
 

JGslots

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Land based UK Casinos slots are usually set between 90-94% There’s a handful of games on 95% too.

An example is SG Rainbow Riches Pick N Mix £10,000 Jackpot, this is 94% on all stakes.

Rob :)
 

shaunb95

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Why are staying at max when others are not? How are they sustaining it? and will they forever?
They’re still making money at 96% just not as much as on 94% - both options are ‘sustainable’

There are that many casinos to choose from you would think in a wide open market you would think websites would want to select higher RTPs, to attract custom from elsewhere, but instead as with everything else it seems to just be becoming a race to the bottom; same thing with bonuses, loads of casinos had no deposit offers/huge matched deposit offers and they’ve slowly faded away. One place jumps and the others follow suit.

The same reason most places are based in Malta/Gibraltar, it all just boils down to greed, more and more profit, and as more people turn to online they will continue to take advantage of it.
 

Mr_Slot5

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They’re still making money at 96% just not as much as on 94% - both options are ‘sustainable’

There are that many casinos to choose from you would think in a wide open market you would think websites would want to select higher RTPs, to attract custom from elsewhere, but instead as with everything else it seems to just be becoming a race to the bottom; same thing with bonuses, loads of casinos had no deposit offers/huge matched deposit offers and they’ve slowly faded away. One place jumps and the others follow suit.

The same reason most places are based in Malta/Gibraltar, it all just boils down to greed, more and more profit, and as more people turn to online they will continue to take advantage of it.
Race to the bottom is correct, and we are seeing across all aspects of capitalism at present. NOT sustainable in the long run...
 

nikantw

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I am really proud for CM and the members here for starting a serious discussion about the RTP that will without a doubt effect all the industry. :thumbsup:

The biggest responsibility here obviously falls to the Regulatory Bodies. Lets face it: EU failed to have some common standards because of the tax money and most countries prefer to look the other way because of the tax money.

Truth is that if a player is in control, when the casino will lower the TRTP that will only cut down playtime, since "in control" means I have a budget and when it ends I stop. So players in control = no profit for casinos when they lower TRTP.

The only way for a casino to profit from lowering TRTP is by creating problem gamblers that lose control of their budget.

First step is to acknowledge that lowering TRTP creates problem gamblers. Second step is the Regulatory Bodies to set some better standards for it, some higher limits and obligations to better inform the players.

What limit should that be? When a player can easily lose a month's salary in a day on Video Poker that has TRTP 99%, then I would say 96% is low for online and it shouldn't get any lower. If that means the governments should cut down on the taxes and fines, then they should do that. The health of their citizens is more important.

We can "help" them get there by informing as many people as possible so that eventually most will avoid lower TRTP games.
 

PMKFRUITPRO

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Yes I clocked that as well. Of all the online casinos I didn’t think Sky Vegas would have something that low.

They’ve also just added Piggy Ritches with the annoying progressive jackpots at a staggering 92.75%

Another slap in the face.
 

Slottery

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They’re still making money at 96% just not as much as on 94% - both options are ‘sustainable’

There are that many casinos to choose from you would think in a wide open market you would think websites would want to select higher RTPs, to attract custom from elsewhere, but instead as with everything else it seems to just be becoming a race to the bottom; same thing with bonuses, loads of casinos had no deposit offers/huge matched deposit offers and they’ve slowly faded away. One place jumps and the others follow suit.

The same reason most places are based in Malta/Gibraltar, it all just boils down to greed, more and more profit, and as more people turn to online they will continue to take advantage of it.
There are less bonuses in general available than used to be some years ago for sure. Can be greed and also that operating costs have increased, unfortunately part of these normally are paid by customers like in most of industries. It would probably be quite good marketing tool to offer highest RTP:s, much more bonuses than other casinos and make your profits that way, it just seems that there are not many willing to try it (which probably would be the case if somebody would believe to be able to run enough profitable operations with that kind of cost structure).

Most of little things, starting from office supplies to salaries have increased and are not same than years ago, at some these start to affect end users. In casino industry bonuses are big part of that this, they were easy way to cut really slowly, little by little, some charge for deposits/withdrawals, some choose to decrease RTP etc..

Even igaming in many parts is quite unique industry, some of these kind of normal laws of business exist even there. There are not many things which wouldn't got higher priced for customers, even for entertainment where you don't buy actual product like movies, sport events, concerts etc... do cost more than years ago. Can be called capitalism that's actually right word where supply and demand set up price of product. Don't know many industries where all would keep cutting their profit margins year after year just to be nice for customers and cut own earnings instead, guess most of us wouldn't be too happy to cut our salaries with 10%, even though we would survive alive even after that but in general people are not happy to get decrease instead of increase to their earnings.

Of course profitable company is profitable even after you cut 99% of your profits but that's not really reality to see any companies doing that. When you make your business research you review and decide what risk and profit level you would be looking to your business some casinos also have got busted and out of business, you also need money to investments, especially in industry where technology is playing high part.

Even inflation have been really low for quite a long, most of prices just increase, there probably are not too many things which would cost exactly same than 5-10 years ago (if not somehow regulated and supported, maybe some medicines etc.. have low increases but even my asthma inhalers which i have to use every day get more expensive around annually). We probably have to accept it happening in gambling as well, can't see much hope it wouldn't, happily most of salaries keep increasing as well, so just have to add some % more from your hourly wage more to get same amount of entertainment or almost anything, your 5 pints in pub also cost more than 5 years ago (if not, be really happy and stay loyal :) ).

Of course it's everybody right to be not happy for increased prices, not trying to say it's not allowed, it's really normal behavior, many people keep mentioning how much petrol price keep increasing and it's not fair we have to pay that much, same applies for almost everything. There are just quite limited ways you can affect them as a customer, stop using products you think are too expensive is one way but it would need most of people to do same to have chance to effect it, nobody would sell product what absolutely nobody buys it's price (can't be called selling but only promoting, offering etc.. when you don't have buying customers).

The only way for a casino to profit from lowering TRTP is by creating problem gamblers that lose control of their budget.

First step is to acknowledge that lowering TRTP creates problem gamblers. Second step is the Regulatory Bodies to set some better standards for it, some higher limits and obligations to better inform the players.
There are quite many studies done that higher RTP actually creates gambling problems, when you think you have decent chance to win, you can end up chasing it. Games like lotteries and others which don't have that "win big in few seconds" factory. Slots are causing most gambling problems, they are fast to win/lose in very short moment.

When regulators see this kind of studies (no idea how good or bad it is but written by a professor and there are some other ones with similar conclusions), it can be hard to convince them to the opposite (haven't seen any which would suggest that lower RTP would increase gambling problems). Would imagine if games RTP would be around 40-50% that would actually stop people playing when chance of winning is so small, now players can have decent hope to make cashouts there and then instead of once in a lifetime.

Here's one fast found from 2018:

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slot_zombie

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As for being lower than brick and mortar casinos in the UK I would like to know where you play and which games as my local casino has 90% for years as did a lot of London ones I frequented, so online is still higher in all cases that I know of.
Can only speak for my local (Genting Resorts World, Birmingham) but it is a cemented 94% across the board, with SG Gaming running on 90% + progressive contribution.

I also receive a lot of freebies, food and drink + free parking and play points.
 

Harry_BKK

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I am really proud for CM and the members here for starting a serious discussion about the RTP that will without a doubt effect all the industry. :thumbsup:

The biggest responsibility here obviously falls to the Regulatory Bodies. Lets face it: EU failed to have some common standards because of the tax money and most countries prefer to look the other way because of the tax money.

Truth is that if a player is in control, when the casino will lower the TRTP that will only cut down playtime, since "in control" means I have a budget and when it ends I stop. So players in control = no profit for casinos when they lower TRTP.

The only way for a casino to profit from lowering TRTP is by creating problem gamblers that lose control of their budget.

First step is to acknowledge that lowering TRTP creates problem gamblers. Second step is the Regulatory Bodies to set some better standards for it, some higher limits and obligations to better inform the players.

What limit should that be? When a player can easily lose a month's salary in a day on Video Poker that has TRTP 99%, then I would say 96% is low for online and it shouldn't get any lower. If that means the governments should cut down on the taxes and fines, then they should do that. The health of their citizens is more important.

We can "help" them get there by informing as many people as possible so that eventually most will avoid lower TRTP games.
No worries, all is coming.

Germany submitted last week its overhaul of the "Glückspielstaatsvetrag", in short GlüStV, to the EU for their blessing. It includes among other whoppers:

- Centralized player database
- Maximum deposit limit across all licensed casinos: EUR1,000 per calendar month
- Withdrawals are not subtracted from the limit.
- Max bet: EUR1

Is that what you are looking for, my friend? :confused:

Shouting all the time for authorities to do something won't end well, that is as sure as the Amen in church. :rolleyes:
 

Mr Wild

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No worries, all is coming.

Germany submitted last week its overhaul of the "Glückspielstaatsvetrag", in short GlüStV, to the EU for their blessing. It includes among other whoppers:

- Centralized player database
- Maximum deposit limit across all licensed casinos: EUR1,000 per calendar month
- Withdrawals are not subtracted from the limit.
- Max bet: EUR1

Is that what you are looking for, my friend? :confused:

Shouting all the time for authorities to do something won't end well, that is as sure as the Amen in church. :rolleyes:
You forgot to mention that the proposed tax will be 2% of stake/bet and not on profit :) RTP will probably be around 92% - 93% on all games if not lower.
 

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