RTGs random jackpots-how random??

[Zoozie]

There are two obvious way to make the slot "fair": the probability of hitting the random jackpot could be proportional to the player's stake, or the player could win an amount proportional to his stake, so that, for example, a $1 player could win the whole jackpot, and a 1c player could win 1% of the jackpot.

I could not have put it better.

So what do you think when INetBet claims that RTG slots has the same probability (constant) for hitting the jackpot? (Bet size does not matter)

My example when betting 0.01$ assumed that the payout (without jackpot) was as low as 90% which mean that even if hitting the jackpot(4K$) was a 1 to 4M shot; then the slot would have payout 100%. Some jackpots even are up to 10K$. So this constant will actually have to be a lot smaller than 1 to 4M. (1 to 20M is a rough estimate). This does not make any sense. No way it can be that low!!!!

So INetBet has the following options:

1) Admit payout on slots is over 100% for low bets.(would like to hear that!)
2) Admit the probablity for hitting the jackpot each spin is less than 1 to 20M and that they are also screwing high rollers with lower payout%.
3) Admit they made an error in their statement and the probability for winning the jackpot DOES depend on bet size.

The data sample provided earlier has nothing to do with the conclusions reached above. The data sample is a whole different story that also is fishy, but which mathematically also confirms
that size does matter! (Bet size..) Or the casino has a massive amount of highrollers so 30%+ of all bets on slots are at bet size 10$ or more.

I am not claiming RTG cheats in any way which I am sure it does not, I am just saying INetBet made a wrong statement in good faith. I really do appriciate the open and honest communication
from INetBet casino, I am just sorry I have to correct an important mistake.

Zoozie

 

[soflat]

If it depends on bet size then how do you explain the Caesars slot being hit more with bets under $1?

How can you draw the conclusion just from the Cleo slot? If you added in the Caesars data, then from what iNetBet said, it sounds like it would even out. Doesn't it?

 

[Zoozie]

If you added in the Caesars data, then from what iNetBet said, it sounds like it would even out. Doesn't it?

I have not seen the data. And even without the data I can conclude
winning the jackpot must be less than 1 to 4M or the slot would have payout
over 100% when betting 0.01$ and jackpot is 4K$. (easy math.)I dont believe that. If you read my note you will also see that it has to be less than 1 to 20M. (harder math). That fact alone should make all high rollers totally avoid playing there. If you are betting 1$ you have to wager 20M$ before you can expect to hit the jackpot once.

 

[iNetBet Promos]

Following the recent comments, by Zoozie, I feel that some points need clarification.

Firstly we object very strongly to any accusations of iNetBet being unethical and providing players with false information. These accusations are not warranted and are without any foundation. You have made a categorical statement that the Jackpots are NOT random. This is conjecture at best. Your analysis is based on incomplete data from one game in a short period of time. You have no information on how many bets were placed at given denominations, how many games were played etc.

With all of the current Real Series Slots the Jackpot increases in relation to the amounts wagered. Whilst high rollers, by the amount they wager, will contribute more per spin, this is irrelevant. One has to remember that a higher wager per spin player does so as a matter of choice, they will be rewarded with much higher Bonus and Top-Line Payouts on a dollar for dollar basis. Most players play to enjoy the game and hit the features and the Top-Line Jackpot, not to hit the Random Jackpot, this is an added random bonus.

If a player is only interested in playing for a Random Jackpot then they will get more return for their bet size playing at the lowest denomination. This is exactly what we have always told any players when asked If I want to hit the Random Jackpot are my odds increased with bet size?

The facts here are that 1) All players contribute the same % of their bet to the Random Jackpot. That 2) All players on each spin, play with the same house advantage regardless of their bet size.

That is really all we have to say on the topic. The contribution size and the way that the Random Jackpots are awarded are fair.

We have posted this information previously. We also provided more completed data to Casinomeister with which he could make an informed reply to this thread. He too has commented that the information provided to him seems quite random.

We are pleased to answer any queries or questions on such highly respected forums such as Casinomeister, in order to assist with any concerns or issues that members may have. We have always been as transparent as possible in all of our responses and I would hope that our input has assisted many members in the past.

We have been posting for a number of years and would never post anything to misinform players. This, as I am sure many longstanding members will attest to, is not the way that we operate. I can categorically state that the information that we have provided in regards to the Random Jackpots is correct. Each players bet size does not affect the odds that they will win the Jackpot.

 

[Zoozie]

the way that the Random Jackpots are awarded are fair. (1)

Each player’s bet size does not affect the odds that they will win the Jackpot. (2)

All players on each spin, play with the same house advantage regardless of their bet size. (3)

Thank you for responding!

I would like to comment these three sentences, since they conflict with each other. I will number them 1), 2) and 3).

First of all I just proved this mathemathically earlier:
If 2) is true then players will not play with the same house advantage as you claim in 3).
This is one of the core problems here.

I proved it by using a similar example, but it can be done formally as well. However I did assume that the 'base payout%' for the slot is the same for all bet sizes. By this I mean the chance for hitting 5 wilds ect. is the same ether you play 0.20$ bet or 20$ bet. (same number of lines). I believe that we can safely assume this is indeed the case since the alternative is very severe.

If you assume 2) then I would not say the jackpots are awared fair as you say in 1). They will favor the lower rollers, which I actually would prefer since I also am a low roller, but I would never call it 'fair'.

I would not mind seeing bet sizes that won jackpots from other slots as well and I will not use them
for what you probably thinks is my personal crusade against RTG, which it is not. I will just see if they
show the same and them I am forced to accept 30%+ of the spins made at the slots are 10$ or higher bet which is a surprise for me, but can it certainly be true.

Zoozie

 

[Flizzin]

IMO, seems fair to me... That's the whole idea of random in my head is that anyone can win the RJP regardless of bet size.

I guess it depends on what you would call fair...

 

[soflat]

Thank you for responding!

I would like to comment these three sentences, since they conflict with each other. I will number them 1), 2) and 3).

First of all I just proved mathemathically earlier before:
If 2) is true then players will not play with the same house advantage as you claim in 3).
This is one of the core problems here.

I'm pretty sure the chance of hitting the jackpot on a single spin directly corresponds to total bet. Thus each player will have the same house advantage with regards to the random jackpots.

Basically each penny bet on a line is one bet, and each of those bets has the same chance of winning the jackpot.

Of course I could be wrong.

 

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth

If that's the case, then it's not "random".

Random = everyone has an EQUAL chance to hit it, no matter what their bet.

It's kinda similar to how the publishers clearing house drawing was back in the day - you had to actually buy something to have a better chance of winning (or win at all). The only difference in this case is you have to bet a certain amount per spin to have a better (or any) chance.

I won a random jackpot on a .20 bet, with a low deposit. What I have noticed about them is this... If the numbers are spinning rapidly, that means a lot of people are playing at that moment, if you do not see the numbers moving, your odds are going down. So I believe most of them are truly random but your chances increase with the popularity of a certain game. However, I have played some of these casinos where you will win a little and then the machine will go ice cold until most of your winnings are gone. I do not think there is anything random about that!

 

[cynthial]

Sweet!
Elizabeth, how much was the jp? Were you able to collect the full amount or were you tied to a max withdrawal amount? Details girl, Damnit, I want details!

 

[Avatar73]

Zoozie is totally correct.

If what InetBet says is true, then consider this.
They claim that the probability is equal with each spin.
So say the probablility of the RJ was 0.01, and it values at $500, then it is reasonable to see that roughly 100 spins has a good chance of hitting it.

So a highroller, 5$/line x 20 lines = $100 per spin.
100 spins is a cost of 100x100= $10,000 win RJ $500 = LOSS $9,500
(all other things being equal).

Similarly, 1c/line x 1 line = 1c /spin
100 spinds is a cost of 100x1c = $1 win RJ $500 = WIN $499.

So I am afraid I do not see how InetBet can claim that the house edge is constant. If it were me, I would set it up so that probability increases with bet size, so chance at $10 = 0.01 means chance at 1c = 0.00001.

I would be grateful if InetBet could explain how the house edge is the same.

Thanks!

PS I am aware that you should in fact use Prob(not hitting in 100 spins) = 0.366 but I have gone for simplicity here.

 

[Zoozie]

Zoozie is totally correct.
I would be grateful if InetBet could explain how the house edge is the same.

Thanks for the support!

INetBet asked RTG and I believe some manager at RTG fucked up and misunderstood the answer from the development team (or maybe did not ask them at all).

So do not blame INetBet - they actually tried to solve the puzzle. And they have to believe what RTG tells them.

I saw the Random Jackpot data and they were the 'smoking gun' kind of evidence for my claim. However before I saw the data I was already convinced I was right. However I must not publish the jackpot data.

I know CM also saw them and said they looked fair, but I believe he did a mistake not asking someone qualified to see the data.

Zoozie

 

[Avatar73]

So the final conclusion is......... ?!

1) non-linear (ie much higher chance with higher bet)
2) linear (higher chance with higher bet)
3) equal (who cares how much you bet)

... and you're saying generally (2) with a little bit of (1) here and there, but never (3) .... ?

 

[Zoozie]

So the final conclusion is......... ?!

1) non-linear (ie much higher chance with higher bet)
2) linear (higher chance with higher bet)
3) equal (who cares how much you bet)

... and you're saying generally (2) with a little bit of (1) here and there, but never (3) .... ?

That is correct. However (1) is just a slight suspicion I have. (and the data can not show this, would need a gigantic sample. But it shows (3) is not correct.)

But first of all and the most important thing is that what RTG claims can not be right.

So when finally (3) is rejected, then we can start with the (1) or (2).
And with the sale of RTG going on right now (and developers getting fired) this could take a long time, if ever.

We know the casino managers can change the payout% for the slots. But it is a mystery how this is possible without changing the reels. (no reports of anyone ever seeing different reels at RTG casinos).

So all this makes me wonder if RTG slots are indeed 'true' video slots where
the reel does determine the wins. The alternative is that some lottery algorithm determine the win and then find reel showing the win. Because if this is true, then (1) can also be true. However then the situation is much much worse. But all this is PURE SPECULATION, I do not think or hope this is true. Best thing I can compare it to is the 'video poker' at Slotland which is not video poker at all. The results are not determined from a deck of cards.

Sadly, which can be seen in thread, most people do not understand this and they are happy if it just is 'random'.

A die showing
6 50% and
1,2,3,4,5 10% of the time each

that is still 'random', but it is not fair!

Actually you can not use the word RANDOM alone. You need to tell the distribution of the random variable. A normal die is UNIFORM random (all events have same probability etc.). So for this you say it is uniformly random.
And this is what most people actually mean when they say random. If this is not the case then they can say it is weighted at least.

Zoozie

 

[Simmo!]

We know the casino managers can change the payout% for the slots. But it is a mystery how this is possible without changing the reels. (no reports of anyone ever seeing different reels at RTG casinos).

If you watch closely you'll often see the reels reset themselves during a spin. Pretty sure this is how they take into account the different payouts. My theory is, if you see a slight "judder" on each reel before they settle, get the hell away from the slot - i's in a bad mood and resetting like mad to avoid paying out

 

[Pinababy69]

some manager at RTG fucked up

Zoozie

Zoozie said the "F" word!!!

 

[Avatar73]

If you watch closely you'll often see the reels reset themselves during a spin. Pretty sure this is how they take into account the different payouts. My theory is, if you see a slight "judder" on each reel before they settle, get the hell away from the slot - i's in a bad mood and resetting like mad to avoid paying out

This is incorrect.
If they were going to bodge the slot, they would NOT do it through shabby visual display programming!
What you are thinking of is merely a by-product of animation.
There is a "reel-spin" animation, showing many symbols whizzing by, and then a "reel stop" animation, showing the chosen result banging into play and then stopping.
That is all

 

[Avatar73]

I won a random jackpot on a .20 bet, with a low deposit. What I have noticed about them is this... If the numbers are spinning rapidly, that means a lot of people are playing at that moment, if you do not see the numbers moving, your odds are going down. So I believe most of them are truly random but your chances increase with the popularity of a certain game. However, I have played some of these casinos where you will win a little and then the machine will go ice cold until most of your winnings are gone. I do not think there is anything random about that!

Ok, I'm afraid you will need the mind of a woman to explain that logic to me!

 

[Simmo!]

Zoozie said the "F" word!!!

Strictly speaking, he only typed it, which isn't quite the same

 

[lojo]

Zoozie, I didn't know you had seen the sample they provided the Meister. (from discussion in another thread) Wouldn't the small size of the sample make it just as likely one way or the other?

I have read about players low-rolling and winning sizable random jackpots. Could they 'seed the mine' with these to make it look truly random, or...

It wouldn't do me any good to see the sample as I would form an opinion on gut, or "it looks like". But if it was small and not actually analysed statistically your perception could be based on the same thing?

All I know is I have never won one.

Thanks for any insights

 

[sweiger]

We know the casino managers can change the payout% for the slots. But it is a mystery how this is possible without changing the reels. (no reports of anyone ever seeing different reels at RTG casinos).

My guess is that each symbol on the reels is weighted, and with less or more weight on the "expensive" symbols (e.g. wilds), you affect the payout%.
So to set a different payout%, the casino software would simply be set to another weightening of those symbols, without having to change the reels.

Re. chance of hitting the RTG random jackpot, I share your concern, as it seems unfair if a $0.01 bet has the same chance as a $100 bet. I just can't imagine that it is so.

 

[Robertsgirl]

Random Jackpot

I hit a Random Jackpot playing $2, a spin. The Random Jackpot was for $7,500.00.

Did I get $7500.00? Sure didn't..It was before I joined this forum. Sorry to make lame excuses...Used a coupon that did specify X amount of play. However the T/C were not listed. They were however on the Casino's website. So I deposited $50, and won $500.

 

[phynqster]

When these slots first started a programer explained to me that they were NOT random, that the slot was set to pay off with the "random " jackpot on a certain spin number and it did not matter if players were spinning for .01 or 5.00 per spin.
The reason you see the counter spinning abnormally fast or resetting itself is that it is estimateing how many spins a player is playing so when there is a player playing 5.00 spin the counter starts flying, but when they stop it takes a few seconds for the jackpot reset itself to the correct amount.
As far as setting the payout %, it has nothing to do with the random jackpot, but the casinos are able to bank together a number of the games together to form a single random jackpot that will be larger than if each machine was random on its own.
I have seen players hit the random jackpot on the first spin or after hours of play, and have seen it hit for .01 and for the 5.00 spin.

 

[Simmo!]

When these slots first started a programer explained to me that they were NOT random, that the slot was set to pay off with the "random " jackpot on a certain spin number and it did not matter if players were spinning for .01 or 5.00 per spin.

If that's correct, that's very good

 

[Mike031]

I hit a Random Jackpot playing $2, a spin. The Random Jackpot was for $7,500.00.

Did I get $7500.00? Sure didn't..It was before I joined this forum. Sorry to make lame excuses...Used a coupon that did specify X amount of play. However the T/C were not listed. They were however on the Casino's website. So I deposited $50, and won $500.

Which Casino was this?

 

[Mousey]

Which Casino was this?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/virtual-casino.17431/