RTGs random jackpots-how random??

[Robertsgirl]

Virtual Casino

This was the reason that I found and joined the C.M. I was finally paid after Bryan assisted me. They sent me $482.00--Of coarse the charged me for the Western Union. So with that in mind, I used a $50 prepaid Visa $54.95, had a large playthrough, and had to assume the cost of the Western Union $18.00, So how much of the $7500.00, did I win? $427.05.

Please keep in mind that the "coupon" did not specify the 10X cash out rule!

 

[cheekymonkey]

So how much of the $7500.00, did I win? $427.05

Yuk, yuk and double yuk!

 

[tennis_balls]

When these slots first started a programer explained to me that they were NOT random, that the slot was set to pay off with the "random " jackpot on a certain spin number and it did not matter if players were spinning for .01 or 5.00 per spin.

if this were accurate, then vinylweatheman would already have 5 PCs spinning 24/7 at .01 per spin and we would see his name on the winner list every month.

 

[Zaqwert]

When these slots first started a programer explained to me that they were NOT random, that the slot was set to pay off with the "random " jackpot on a certain spin number and it did not matter if players were spinning for .01 or 5.00 per spin.
The reason you see the counter spinning abnormally fast or resetting itself is that it is estimateing how many spins a player is playing so when there is a player playing 5.00 spin the counter starts flying, but when they stop it takes a few seconds for the jackpot reset itself to the correct amount.
As far as setting the payout %, it has nothing to do with the random jackpot, but the casinos are able to bank together a number of the games together to form a single random jackpot that will be larger than if each machine was random on its own.
I have seen players hit the random jackpot on the first spin or after hours of play, and have seen it hit for .01 and for the 5.00 spin.

I used to work for RTG, as a software developer, and I worked directly on the Real Series slots.

There is no magic spin number for the jackpot to pay off. Each spin is a completely independent event. Past spins have no impact at all on what the current or future spins will be.

Regardless of what you have heard or haven't heard up till now, the random jackpot "chance" of hitting is the same per dollar wagered. That is the key.

To say it mathematically, playing 100 spins at $1 a spin has the same chance of hitting the jackpot as a single spin of $100 (long run).

So you aren't "missing out" on anything by playing lower stakes. And you aren't "gaining" anything by playing higher stakes.

The reason is a fixed % of each dollar wagered goes to feed the jackpot, regardless of how it was wagered.

Also the slots are truly video slots. Electronic representation of the "physical wheels" exist and for each spin the wheel stops are generated. Each stop on each wheel is equally likely. The way a payout % is achieved is by what symbols are on what wheels in what quantities. When set to a lower payout % the wheel(s) might have fewer "good" symbols and/or more "lesser" symbols.

Also, it should be noted the wheels are not necessarily uniform. Wheel 1 could have 32 symbols, wheel 2 could have 29, wheel 3 could have 37, and so forth.

It's very hard to spot changes in the wheels from payout % to payout% due to the fact you only need to make a minimal change to affect the %. Changing a high symbol to a low symbol on a single wheel or two very well might be the only change.

 

[mikepipe]

I used to work for RTG, as a software developer, and I worked directly on the Real Series slots.

To say it mathematically, playing 100 spins at $1 a spin has the same chance of hitting the jackpot as a single spin of $100 (long run).

So you aren't "missing out" on anything by playing lower stakes. And you aren't "gaining" anything by playing higher stakes.

Sorry?
Why dont i gain anything with higher bets? If the chance is per dollars bet, then one bet at 10 gives me as much as 100 at 0.1 - right?

Or simplier: the more dollars i bet, the higher the chance, which means, i shouldnt set the slot on auto the whole nite long with 0,01 bet, but with 0,5 bets (20x better chances )

 

[Avatar73]

No, it comes back to Zoozie and being linear.

So say betting $100 in one go gives you 1/10 chance of jackpot.

Then setting a computer on all night at 0.01 makes no difference....
assume it spins 10,000 times, wagereing $100. Then overall, you would still have 1/10 chance of hitting the jackpot.

The only difference is that with one type you have one stab at 1/10 chance, and the other method you have 10,000 stabs at 1/100,000 chance.

So theres no real difference.

(aside from the fact that 0.01c spins will be less volatile, and per extra $100 range the chance of not hitting the jackpot will decrease with smaller bet size).


It's a bit like saying.... you can buy 500,000 lottery tickets for a 1M prize, or bet $500,000 on red on no-zero. Both can win the same, but with higher, smaller bets, the chances are a lot more clear cut!

 

[sweiger]

The original questions:

This leaves me with these questions:
- Is the chance of winning the random jackpot bigger if you bet max pr spin(like rapid fire jackpots) - and is heijac doing this?
- is heijac playing cleos gold day and night 24/7?

Considering Zaqwert's info, I must say that this "heijac" is either ultra-ber-extremely lucky, or something terribly fishy is going on...

 

[Zoozie]

Considering Zaqwert's info, I must say that this "heijac" is either ultra-ber-extremely lucky, or something terribly fishy is going on...

I can not reveal the bet size-data from "heijac". But he was no low roller. So given the bet-size linear probability things are as they should be. Of course he also must have played a LOT.

The only thing 'fishy' is the reply from RTG/InetNet. Their slots seems to be working like all other random jackpot slots out there.

The "heijac" data is just another strong indication for the liniear bet size, and one that is easy to understand.

If you have same chance as "heijac" of hitting the several jackpots over some months with 0.01$ bet, they you have a money machine. I believe we calculated earlier it only costs 7$ average/day to spin 24 hours at 0.01$ bet-size.

But only the 2 lowest of about 50 jackpots was won at 0.20$ bet. (and no lower bets won eighter.) So.....

 

[sweiger]

Yep... Of course high-rolling changes his odds for winning the RJ, but only linear, as I understood from Zaqwert. I still think winning 3 RJ's within one month sounds beyond imaginable luck. But of course, anything can happen when gambling...you can even lose

 

[sweiger]

The only thing 'fishy' is the reply from RTG/InetNet. Their slots seems to be working like all other random jackpot slots out there.

That is odd, too.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Great!

I used to work for RTG, as a software developer, and I worked directly on the Real Series slots.

There is no magic spin number for the jackpot to pay off. Each spin is a completely independent event. Past spins have no impact at all on what the current or future spins will be.

Regardless of what you have heard or haven't heard up till now, the random jackpot "chance" of hitting is the same per dollar wagered. That is the key.

To say it mathematically, playing 100 spins at $1 a spin has the same chance of hitting the jackpot as a single spin of $100 (long run).

So you aren't "missing out" on anything by playing lower stakes. And you aren't "gaining" anything by playing higher stakes.

The reason is a fixed % of each dollar wagered goes to feed the jackpot, regardless of how it was wagered.

Also the slots are truly video slots. Electronic representation of the "physical wheels" exist and for each spin the wheel stops are generated. Each stop on each wheel is equally likely. The way a payout % is achieved is by what symbols are on what wheels in what quantities. When set to a lower payout % the wheel(s) might have fewer "good" symbols and/or more "lesser" symbols.

Also, it should be noted the wheels are not necessarily uniform. Wheel 1 could have 32 symbols, wheel 2 could have 29, wheel 3 could have 37, and so forth.

It's very hard to spot changes in the wheels from payout % to payout% due to the fact you only need to make a minimal change to affect the %. Changing a high symbol to a low symbol on a single wheel or two very well might be the only change.

So, this means we can calculate which RTG's have screwed the slots down tight and which are more generous by comparing reel strips from a subset of popular slots across several RTG casinos. This method was able to pretty accurately determine the payouts of Thunderstruck slots at MG casinos.

if this were accurate, then vinylweatheman would already have 5 PCs spinning 24/7 at .01 per spin and we would see his name on the winner list every month.

I do not require 5 PCs to do this, the one I have next door will suffice (it can do it with 5 MGs, so 5 RTGs would be easy.
I have NEVER won an RTG random jackpot, however I did get 5 scatters on Thunderstruck over 4 weeks, so such "fishy" happenings are not unknown (unless one believes MG slots have a lower HE for low rollers).

 

[Zoozie]

Regardless of what you have heard or haven't heard up till now, the random jackpot "chance" of hitting is the same per dollar wagered. That is the key.

This is excactly what I have been saying all the time. And now this comes first hand from an insider RTG-developer. Also the jackpot data sheet I saw clearly showed that the probability was dependant on bet-size. Besides the math that has been done for the slot also shows it is impossible to have same probability no matter what bet-size, because it was very easy exploitable.

Also if the jackpot was hit after a certain fixed number of spins, this would also be exploitable by people having access to the database. And it would be a really stupid way to implement it. I rule this option out very fast.

Zoozie

 

[Nifty29]

Great discussion people

I vote someone from RTG comes on down and gives us the good oil....shouldnt have to wait too long for that

I have a mate who won a 7k and a 14k jackpot last month at 2 different RTG's, plus another 8k the month before at one of the same casinos. He usually bets $2 - $5 per spin so he's not a low roller.

Random Jackpots havent paid me a visit yet however....

 

[Credo]

disclaimer: I once worked for RTG, but am not with the company anymore.

The above statement:
'the random jackpot "chance" of hitting is the same per dollar wagered' is true.

But, that doesn't mean that the denomination affects the odds, with respect to the random jackpot.

Consider this (not totally representative) scenario...
Imagine a $1 slot machine that allocated $.99 to the game, and $.01 to the jackpot. For each spin, the house keeps the $.99, and pays you according to the reels. For the other .01, it plays another game, and pays you randomly according to some algorithm.

Now let's say the casino wanted to offer a $2 version of this machine. They could double the paytable, and keep $1.98 and offer double the payout. But what about the other $.02? It could either double the payout, or it could give you 2 entries on the other game. They are the same in terms of expected value, but the distribution of results changes a bit.

The important thing is that this would be a scenario in which the denomination would not change the odds on either machine, yet they share a jackpot, and the higher denom. machine would hit more often (albeit for a lower multiple of the base wager).

This is not exactly the way it works, but the math is very much like this scenario.

 

[Nifty29]

Interesting...

So you are saying you get 1 'ticket' in the 'draw' for each dollar you wager i.e. a $5 wager actually gives you 5 'tickets', so your chances at hitting a RJ are better with a higher bet.

Would this also be a good example:

The jackpot hits at a specific 'ticket' number, and the 'tickets' start being 'issued' in numerical sequence from 1.

So, lets say the first 5 spins of this slot from the jackpot start value are of the following denominations:

Spin#1 = $2
Spin#2 = $5
Spin#3 = $1
Spin#4 = $2
Spin#5 = $10

..then the 'ticket' numbers would be issued as follows:

Spin#1 = 1 thru 2
Spin#2 = 3 thru 7
Spin#3 = 8
Spin#4 = 9 thru 10
Spin#5 = 11 thru 20

So, if the jackpot was to be hit at 'ticket' number 2894, and someone had a $10 spin and was issued 10 'tickets' starting at 2890 they would win it?


I know this is a simple expression, but is it kinda close?

If so, it would explain a great many things.

(No - I havent been drinking - but I think I should start)

 

[Credo]

That is exactly the idea.
Now imagine those are not tickets, but individual independent chances to win, and you're pretty much there.

 

[Zaqwert]

Yes if your total spin costs you $5 you have a 5x better chance of winning on that spin that someone whose total spin was $1.

However you also PAID 5 times as much for it.

So it's a mathematical wash.

Someone who buys 1,000 lottery tickets has a much better chance of winning the lottery than someone who buys a single ticket, but they have no mathematical advantage or disadvantage.

But don't let this ticket analogy make you think there is some magic spin or ticket system, there isn't.

Basically a random number is generated (a huge range) on each spin and if that random number is within a certain qualifying range the jackpot is triggered.

The qualifying range grows/shrinks directly proportional to bet size.

 

[me_and_ed]

All I know is that I still have not won one.

 

[lojo]

All I know is that I still have not won one.

Me too niether

 

[Avatar73]

I won a fancy 12M random .... in free play

but nothing for real. Which I guess is kind of fair, seeing as in the big scheme of things I haven't really wagered that much on slots....

Also in an entry-fee tournament I won a few of the Hulk RJ's, which is kinda like real-play odds! But not big and didnt win the comp either

PS thanks for the explanation! v good.

 

[amatrine]

Re

Im sure I probably have dumped over a 100 grande into those things over the last few years and still never won one. Dont matter if I bet a dollar or five dollars,play one every day weeks straight,.... swear at it, be nice to it,
it just hates me.

Only ever win in free mode playing 100 dollar spin(

 

[Zoozie]

Only ever win in free mode playing 100 dollar spin(

Lots of people do that. I do not think RTG are cheating in fun mode, but as I claim the chance of winning increases with bet-size. This is just some more
obvious evidence of this.

Zoozie

 

[gerilege]

Just one note.

It also depends on which casino do you play. In a casino which offers huge bonuses with strict requirements, it is probably easier to win the rj, because those bonuses also contribute to the rj, and the rjs are usually higher, and therefore are probably more often triggered.

I won the rj betting 1.25 USD on Fruit Frenzy, and it was more than 11.000 USD (I was only able to cashout 4.000 because I played with a bonus with a max cashout rule). But as I was offered 200% bonus, only 1/3 of my bet was my money, the other 2/3 was bonus, so I think paying 1/3 of the jackpot was reasonable.

But the above note only parly relates to the original question. I also think that the chance for the RJ is linear with the bet size.

 

[lojo]

I guess the simplest answer is yes, linear, because: It's been stated that they hit at a predetermined 'random' number. When betting .20 the JP raises very slowly, when betting $100 it raises quickly, running you through more of the potential numbers to win on. It takes a little while for the jackpot speed to 'catch-up' to your bet size. Haven't yet determined if it is time based or x# of spins when the slot resets.

Again, Zoozie has been right all along imo.