RTG BJ-unwinnable at higher stakes

[funeral979]

Its been awhile since there has been a post on conspiracy theories and such concerning RTG blackjack, so thought I would share my experience over the past year or so.

The majority of my playtime in 2008 was at RTG casinos, and 95% of that with one of the accredited RTG groups here. If you asked me 5-6 years ago I would have said without a doubt that RTG deals the fairest game online. Well obviously alot has changed since then.

I understand that, over the course of thousands and thousands of hands, you will get some long streaks, some good, and some bad (OK lets not fool ourselves here.....you will get a few decent streaks, and MANY unbelievably bad streaks). I had a run of 23 straight losses, as well as at least 10 runs of losing 15 of 17 hands, 14 of 15, 18 of 20, etc, etc. After going thru thousands of hands of which they so kindly sent me on spreadsheets, you would be hard pressed to find ANY winning streaks over 10.....nothing coming close to 23, or even 15 for that matter. The run of 23 straight losses was composed of bets all between $25-$100...with no pushes between.

Now what I have noticed is....if you keep to relatively small wagers (say $1-$10) you will get a pretty balanced game......higher stakes? Forget about it! Even in fun mode, wagering $200 per hand, you will get slaughtered in short order. I am firm in my belief that there is something in the RTG software that is triggered when you bet over $xx that heavily favors the house.

Well after having some pretty bad BJ sessions at my favorite RTG casino, I asked for my payback % at BJ when playing higher stakes in November & December of last year.....

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx

Thanks for contacting us. It is a pleasure to be of your assistance.

Please receive our apologies for the delay in getting back to you. In regards to your previous messages please allow us to provide you the requested percentages for hands played in Blackjack with bets over $50.



November: 62.56 %



December: 35.48 %



As you expected the percentages are low. Keep in mind that this reflects the result of the entire months. Each session you play has a low number of this bets. This will also affect the odds. We are not trying to justify the software, we agree with you when there are sessions that are way too rough, but please not that it is a fact that the results may be affected just considering the amount of bets with that value played. If you would like an Excel file with he hands for November and December please let us know and we will be more than glad to send them.



We hope that soon you will have sessions in which odds present on your favor, winning all the big bets and loosing the small ones.


Well I can assure you that no sessions exist where I won all the big bets and lost all the small ones. As you can see, the %s are a complete joke, but 100% correct.

Even though I did play a small # of hands at these stakes I think I saw enough....and can you blame me? And this is why the players will keep getting screwed under the disguise of fair software. People will flat bet $1 or $2 to 'test' its fairness....and of course the results will come back close to expected, but no one is willing to risk playing thousands of hands at $50-$100 + to test the software.....and im sure the developers know this and have no fear in altering the software, if they so choose, to heavily favor the house when playing high stakes.

Ok there, I said it, im done.

 

[winbig]

I'd love to see those excel files if it's not too much trouble

IMO, it's hard to win playing RTG blackjack at low stakes, so I could just imagine what it's like playing at higher stakes. I also remember playing at Geisha Lounge and King Solomons years ago before the UIGEA came to be, and even though RTG's blackjack was still streaky back then, you had just as many good runs as you did bad. Now, it's too lop-sided. In the casino's favor.

It really makes you wonder.

side note: How long did it take you to get your logs?

 

[funeral979]

The sent me the logs within a few days, along with a $100 free chip (feelin guilty??) Hard to send me %s like that without some sort of consolation prize.

I deleted them awhile ago, but I just requested them again last nite and would be happy to send them to you.

We are talking about blackjack here paying 35% at high stakes (at least as far as online is concerned) over the course of a month from an ACCREDITED casino!!!

 

[funeral979]

Thought I would post my lovely 23 hand losing streak. Appeared I was wrong there is one push in here. Streak ended up being 28 hands with 26 losers, 1 win and 1 push. Wonder if someone could tell me the odds on this event happening?

Notice the discrepancy on first 2 cards dealt. I managed 1 BJ (the push) and best I could manage on the rest of the hands in the streak was one hard 18!

WTG RTG!

 

[spearmaster]

I only looked at the first few hands, and I saw at least two occasions where you stood on cards that you shouldn't have. Didn't look further than that though.

Given this scenario, I'd say that a long losing streak like that is not out of the ordinary.

 

[funeral979]

Im pretty sure that lines 980/981 were the only ones where I didn't follow basic strategy. Sometimes you try to outthink the computer, especially if you know you are in takedown mode. The hands before this were not exactly pretty either.

 

[spearmaster]

Line 960.

 

[EasyRhino]

If I'm reading it right (it's small, and not sure if I understand the format):
955, should double A7 v 6
960, should hit 16 v 8 (if that's an 8 I see)
963, did you split 10s? what does that line mean?
981, standing A,8 is actually correct v 10

That's not the point. In just 20ish hands, it's tough to say if those play deviations would have really mattered or not. And I agree that losing 20ish hands in a row is unreal. It's truly a special, horrible, statistical moment for you.

In my experience, playing RTG's blackjack with bets ranging between $5 and 2x$500, the game plays the same at higher stakes as it does at lower stakes. The money just lasts much shorter at higher stakes because it's so much more money.

I'm actually kind of impressed

 

[spearmaster]

That's not the point. In just 20ish hands, it's tough to say if those play deviations would have really mattered or not.

It stands to reason that any play which is not optimum increases the chance of losing... however small a difference that may be, over any length of time.

Yes, sometimes you win even without optimal play - but don't blame the cards or the casino if you lose more often.

 

[handkey]

28 hands losing streak!!!!!


Take a break when you have a losing streak(more than 20 hands).

Leave away when you have two consecutive losing streak and never come back again.

 

[winbig]

963, did you split 10s? what does that line mean?

He had 13 on #963, then drew an ace and a face to bust..The loss was $25, so there wasn't any splitting involved..

 

[EasyRhino]

I read the 3 as a J, thanks winbig.

 

[funeral979]

It stands to reason that any play which is not optimum increases the chance of losing... however small a difference that may be, over any length of time.

Yes, sometimes you win even without optimal play - but don't blame the cards or the casino if you lose more often.

I think anyone in the midst of a long losing streak will throw out basic strategy every now and then in hopes to break the streak. And these were minor deviations anyway.

The point is that the software was going to make sure I lost regardless. Just looking at my first 2 cards dealt this should be obvious.

It should be noted that I was playing on a $1,000 manager bonus (with BJ the WR was 100 x bonus with no max cashout - a token $100,000 in wagers) Maybe in the back of my mind I was playing a little more reckless than I should have thinking there was no way I could clear the WR. But I still had every intention of cashing out SOMETHING.

 

[EasyRhino]

Sounds like the casino was being fairly good to you. Managers bonus, CS's running the numbers on your play history, etc.

 

[spearmaster]

I think anyone in the midst of a long losing streak will throw out basic strategy every now and then in hopes to break the streak. And these were minor deviations anyway.

I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).

Furthermore, your mistakes occurred very early in the streak, and standing on 16 vs. an 8 showing is not a minor deviation.

In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.

 

[funeral979]

Oh the CS was great for the most part. I don't blame the casino, which is why I don't mention their name. It's just a shame that the BJ leaves much to be desired.


And believe me, I lost plenty to get the comps I did at this casino.

 

[funeral979]

I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).

Furthermore, your mistakes occurred very early in the streak, and standing on 16 vs. an 8 showing is not a minor deviation.

In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.

The hand you are referring to was before the 23 hand losing streak occured. And I made that decision based on patterns I saw in the previous 100 hands or so.

And you can try and discredit my posts if you like, but I think Its a bit much that when I raise my bets to $50+ my payback % falls to 35% over the course of a month (on a game that should bring a payback over 98%). And this was verified by CS.

There have been dozens of threads here over the years complaining of 'rigged" BJ games.....so obviously there are many others who have similar experiences. I never said, "look at this, this is RIGGED" I simply want other players to think twice when they start upping their bets.

 

[EasyRhino]

To disclaim, I want to emphasize that 20 losses in a row (or 23 without a win) is amazingly unlucky. I don't think I've come even close to a streak that long (maybe 13 or so). It's just mind-bottling. I'm not sure how many blackjack players you'd have to poll until you find someone else who's had that streak anytime in their life. And you have my sympathies, it totally sucks.

But note that if you're accusing the RTG software of being rigged in general, then it would be a problem at EVERY RTG casino, not just the one store you're playing at. And I've played at some incredibly douchey RTG casinos, and still won money big bets at blackjack (and lost the expected amount, as well). It just doesn't add up.

The hand you are referring to was before the 23 hand losing streak occured. And I made that decision based on patterns I saw in the previous 100 hands or so.

But the RNG just doesn't care about what patterns you see while playing. In fact, even if it was rigged, your hypothesis would have it waiting to pounce only when you raised your bets... not based on previous play history. In your streak of doom, you were losing large and small bets with equal ferocity, changing bets did nothing.

 

[Kenny Lingus]

In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.

Yeah, what right do you have to complain, just because you have been getting screwed up the backside?

Just realize that if you complain too much in a public forum such as this one, then some people might not gamble as much, and then the casinos and their affiliates (such as the ones who dominate this forum) might not make as much money. Did you consider this before you started this thread? Or is it all about you and your unrealistic loses?

Some people!

 

[Janek12]

To disclaim, I want to emphasize that 20 losses in a row (or 23 without a win) is amazingly unlucky. I don't think I've come even close to a streak that long (maybe 13 or so). It's just mind-bottling. I'm not sure how many blackjack players you'd have to poll until you find someone else who's had that streak anytime in their life. And you have my sympathies, it totally sucks.

But note that if you're accusing the RTG software of being rigged in general, then it would be a problem at EVERY RTG casino, not just the one store you're playing at. And I've played at some incredibly douchey RTG casinos, and still won money big bets at blackjack (and lost the expected amount, as well). It just doesn't add up.



But the RNG just doesn't care about what patterns you see while playing. In fact, even if it was rigged, your hypothesis would have it waiting to pounce only when you raised your bets... not based on previous play history. In your streak of doom, you were losing large and small bets with equal ferocity, changing bets did nothing.

I personally think that the payout percentage for higher bets at around 30-40 % over the course of a month is much more alarming than a single long streak of losses. The mathematic minds here might calculate the odds of this happening - I would estimate that the probability might be much lower than the probability of the 20+ losses in a row.

And there can be various ways, IMHO, in which software may be rigged.
Remember that the software providers depend on the casinos, so it is vital for them that the casinos do not go bankrupt. For example, if the casino is making the expected profit, then the software might be in "fair mode"; if the casino had incurred a heavy loss due to variance, then the software might go to a "recovery" mode (i.e. "player losing mode") and use the higher bets (of which most players will not place sufficient number to be statistically significant, so the risk of a valid complaint by a player is low for the casino) to get back to the level of the needed profit. The possibilities are endless, IMO... But only the insiders know the truth; we can only speculate.

My take on this is that at the end of the day, the total payout for a month/year must conform more or less to the statistical expectations otherwise it would be obvious that the software is rigged. So actually, IMO, the player is still facing a random game in any case - but it might be random in the sense that it might be a matter of luck when the switch of the "losing mode" is on or off. The difference from a game in a land-based casino is, IMO, that some mathematical approaches might not work online (I do not mean card counting) because the outcomes of the game do not depend on pure randomness but on the current profit/loss of the specific casino.

I think this theory would conform to reality at least in some respects - because this might be the reason why some players encounter statistically "impossible" occurences. But these players seem to be quite few - and the reason might be that after all there is the house edge so perhaps most of the time the casinos do not have to switch on the "player losing mode", only in real emergency situations - and this could also be automated and the casino might be completely unaware of this, etc., and this might only be a "safeguard" of the software provider to keep the money flowing in - for the casinos and ultimately for the software provider. As I said, I think the possibilities are endless.

But, of course, these are only my speculations about what might be possible, IMO.

 

[silcnlayc]

I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).

I have to disagree here Rob...for the simple fact that the cards do not play as they would at a regular blackjack table due to being shuffled after EVERY hand. This is the reason one needs to deviate from normal play because you get eaten alive if you play like you should, or what is called by the book.

I cannot tell you how many THOUSANDS of hands I have played in casinos exactly as one should for almost 2 years foolishly and then realized this does NOT pertain to online blackjack because as funeral said

The point is that the software was going to make sure I lost regardless.

I agree with 110% no matter how one plays for I played thousands online correctly and lost more doing it this way than the way I am now which is just as funeral said again...

I think anyone in the midst of a long losing streak will throw out basic strategy every now and then in hopes to break the streak

I have been playing blackjack online for over 10 years and over 35 years in a landbase casino so I really do know something about blackjack.....(and any other card game) and how they fall and the huge difference between the two..online and landbased..

If anyone plays by the book online, they are truly fooling themselves because these cards are NOT the same as live for they do not return the cards after EVERY hand now do they at a real table?
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[nickadon]

Well, its sad to see such losing streaks, however, they are not so unreal. The deviation of the cards is WAY too large when there are 6 decks in the shoe. One might see the dealer getting 20-21 for 10-15 times in a row, but you ight see the same thing from the player side. remember, dealer HAS to draw to 17, while the player stands against 5 or 6. If the player drew against a 6, he might get a few 21's of his own.

In any case, these losing streaks are not uncommon in BJ, especially when the deck is shuffled after each round (which is what happens on line). The casino doesnt have to do anything to win in the long run.

 

[thelawnet]

I have to disagree here Rob...for the simple fact that the cards do not play as they would at a regular blackjack table due to being shuffled after EVERY hand. This is the reason one needs to deviate from normal play because you get eaten alive if you play like you should, or what is called by the book.

Eh?

The fact that the cards are shuffled every hand means that online play should be exactly by the book. Whereas in a real casino the distribution of the cards left in the shoe is never the theoretical (i.e. 4 aces, 4 2s, 4 3s, etc.)

 

[thelawnet]

I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).

Furthermore, your mistakes occurred very early in the streak, and standing on 16 vs. an 8 showing is not a minor deviation.

In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.

It's not that bad. But looking at the screenshot it looks like a dealer 6 to me.

Not doubling A7 vs dealer 6 increases the chance of the player winning, but the amount wagered is less. So actually it makes the 26 losses in 28 more unlikely, not less.

Chance of a net loss in bj is only 49.1%.

The player therefore experienced a 1 in 1.5 million event. Pretty nasty for sure, but then people do win lotteries.

 

[silcnlayc]

The fact that the cards are shuffled every hand means that online play should be exactly by the book. Whereas in a real casino the distribution of the cards left in the shoe is never the theoretical (i.e. 4 aces, 4 2s, 4 3s, etc.)

This has nothin to do with theoretics...it has to do with years of EXPERIENCING the games in different environments...lets say it is 1 shoe...and the dealer deals out half the shoe..what are the chances of the same cards coming up on the next hand? Think about it...pretty much none to, but with a reshuffled deck each and every time, the odds of getting the same hand is raised and is not a fair system IMO ...(I am talkin AK,A10 etc...)

The win ratio online drops tremendously for a player due to this repeating the same cards...plus the benefit of having a certain percentage built into the casinos favor...so you have 2 things against you playing online unlike a B&M casino, all that is against you is the small percentage for the house..and that can be ridden out if you are patient enough..IMO...whereas online, the same repeated scenerio plays out continuously over and over again, dealer 20 player 19, dealer 21 , player 20 etc...in such short play that it could NEVER be compared to real play, so playing by the book will actually hurt you in the long...years of EXPERIENCE has taught me this..

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[silcnlayc]

The casino doesnt have to do anything to win in the long run.

Very well put...when a card game is tilted so far to the casinos favor...they can't lose...that is why so many have become so frustrated (me included) claiming the software is tilted to the dealer and the casino percentage is not a fair one to a card player.

All these players cannot ALL be wrong now can they when they say it FEELS wrong??? That is like sayin you put your shoes on backwards and can't figure out why your shoes just don't FEEL right until you walk in them for a while.. (not a very good example but hopefully you get what I mean)

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[thelawnet]

This has nothin to do with theoretics...it has to do with years of EXPERIENCING the games in different environments...lets say it is 1 shoe...and the dealer deals out half the shoe..what are the chances of the same cards coming up on the next hand? Think about it...pretty much none to, but with a reshuffled deck each and every time, the odds of getting the same hand is raised and is not a fair system IMO ...(I am talkin AK,A10 etc...)

The odds of AK is exactly the same for dealer and player, and is 8/169 for an infinite deck just under 5%. Of course if you've just removed AK from the deck, then the odds of it coming out the next time are less, but if you just got a blackjack then you'd quite like another one wouldn't you.

The win ratio online drops tremendously for a player due to this repeating the same cards...

Why? If you just got a bj in real life the expected payback the next hand will be a fair bit lower due to the missing Ace/ten. Whereas online the payback is exactly the same. It works both ways having a greater chance for hands to repeat.

plus the benefit of having a certain percentage built into the casinos favor...so you have 2 things against you playing online unlike a B&M casino, all that is against you is the small percentage for the house..and that can be ridden out if you are patient enough..

You have that backwards. The small percentage for the house if you are patient enough is GUARANTEED to get you. In the short term you can win and win big, but the more you play, the greater the chance that you will end up a loser. That's the fact of gambling - play 100 hands and your expected loss is 100 times more than 1 hand. But the variance is only 10 times as much. So the variance becomes less significant relative to the house advantage the more you play.

That variance by the way is the only thing that keeps players in casinos, because otherwise they'd just toss the casino 2 cents out of every dollar and then go home.

IMO...whereas online, the same repeated scenerio plays out continuously over and over again, dealer 20 player 19, dealer 21 , player 20 etc...in such short play that it could NEVER be compared to real play, so playing by the book will actually hurt you in the long...years of EXPERIENCE has taught me this..
.

I've got plenty of experience, but I can also run an analysis of every combination of cards for a one, two, four, six, eight deck game, etc., in a few seconds that is equivalent to me or you playing blackjack for a thousand lifetimes. Those are the real numbers - the ones that teach you to hit on 16 even though you always seem to bust, to double on soft hands even when it might seem it's likely to make your hand worse, etc.

 

[silcnlayc]

The odds of AK is exactly the same for dealer and player

Maybe you believe that these cards play the same as real live blackjack..once again, you are fooling yourself...this is a game created by numbers and can be manipulated to the casinos favor...this is NOT real black jack...I think many lose sight of this and when some anomoly happens all the " number wizards" say ah well that was a 1.2 in a million happening but it happens...Um , no , it just doesn't HAPPEN, it was PROGRAMMED to happen...it is NOT REAL BLACKJACK....

It is software that is set in place to give back what the casino wants and if it was ever so slightly tilted to the casinos favor one will know after playing for a number of years, again, I say, one will KNOW when something has changed..I guess maybe that is what I am trying to say..software CAN be set to pay out a certain amount...unlike a live game..there it is pretty much random without any programmers playing with the settings..

But for some reason many of you still believe it is on the up and up and many believe playing perfectly will result in the same thing as real blackjack...and this is where you are very wrong...it is not REAL blackjack...it is a PROGRAM! One cannot beat even in a short run what one cannot have a fair chance at. Online black jack has been set to where it isno longer fair to a player even in short periods of play..

All my opinion of course but I do not seem to be alone in this feeling lately...

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[funeral979]

Maybe you believe that these cards play the same as real live blackjack..once again, you are fooling yourself...this is a game created by numbers and can be manipulated to the casinos favor...this is NOT real black jack...I think many lose sight of this and when some anomoly happens all the " number wizards" say ah well that was a 1.2 in a million happening but it happens...Um , no , it just doesn't HAPPEN, it was PROGRAMMED to happen...it is NOT REAL BLACKJACK....

It is software that is set in place to give back what the casino wants and if it was ever so slightly tilted to the casinos favor one will know after playing for a number of years, again, I say, one will KNOW when something has changed..I guess maybe that is what I am trying to say..software CAN be set to pay out a certain amount...unlike a live game..there it is pretty much random without any programmers playing with the settings..

But for some reason many of you still believe it is on the up and up and many believe playing perfectly will result in the same thing as real blackjack...and this is where you are very wrong...it is not REAL blackjack...it is a PROGRAM! One cannot beat even in a short run what one cannot have a fair chance at. Online black jack has been set to where it isno longer fair to a player even in short periods of play..

All my opinion of course but I do not seem to be alone in this feeling lately...

.

Well im glad someone feels the same as I do. When its the computers time to win,it wont matter what you do, YOU WILL LOSE. I cannot believe it is random. I could post here many,many other runs of streaks quite similar to the 23 hand losing streak.Those of 18 out of 20 losses, 22 out of 25 losses, etc Funny, after looking thru thousands of hands of BJ, I cannot find ONE streak of more than 11 straight wins. And we are talking about $5-$15 hands on the winning streaks.

And I have been playing BJ online for close to 10 years....and I do tire of people saying, "oh, you will get runs like that, you are just on the wrong side of the variance...blah blah blah. Why do we never here of such runs in the players favor?

Oh wait........there was the Cipher program

Have a good one

 

[Markus]

Why do we never here of such runs in the players favor?

You have more losing streaks then winning streaks, because in Blackjack the chance of losing a game is significant higher then winning a game (if you bust you have lost regardless the dealer would bust or not). But this is compensated by Doubles, Splits and Blackjack pays 3:2, therefore you have only a house edge of around 0,5%.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya. It seems to me then, the thing to do, what i did, is to stop playing BJ, or if you play, go back to the $1 min $5 max bet.

This is why i play Roulette. Unless the RNG waits for you to place your chips, and then hit Spin, and then, "SEE", where your chips are at, and cause a losing # to appear, it cannot cheat you. And if it was in Cheat Mode, and you bet High & Low, and Red & black, and Odd & Even, and each dozen, & each colum & covered the 0, would the cheating RNG get stuck in a Loop looking for the losing bet and blow up?

The point being.
Play for the love of a certain game/machine, and win or lose it is all good, or
Play to Win, and find a game/machine that is not cheating, and you are winning at. It just comes down to what is more important to YOU.....

 

[nickadon]

You have more losing streaks then winning streaks, because in Blackjack the chance of losing a game is significant higher then winning a game (if you bust you have lost regardless the dealer would bust or not). But this is compensated by Doubles, Splits and Blackjack pays 3:2, therefore you have only a house edge of around 0,5%.

Right to the point! Actually, this is the main difference between player and dealer: when BOTH bust, the player loses! If you played the same way the dealer plays, you would get pretty much the same outcome. But we tend to remember the bad things (like busting "so often" from 12) and forget the good ones (like drawing a 5 to 16 = 21). Another example is "hidden BJ": we get angry at 10 + Ace hole card, but we never do the same when we get a bj with the SECOND card being an Ace, which is exactly the same as a hidden bj.

 

[EasyRhino]

For example, if the casino is making the expected profit, then the software might be in "fair mode"; if the casino had incurred a heavy loss due to variance, then the software might go to a "recovery" mode (i.e. "player losing mode") and use the higher bets (of which most players will not place sufficient number to be statistically significant, so the risk of a valid complaint by a player is low for the casino) to get back to the level of the needed profit.

Here's how I think we can see that there's a hole in your theory Janek. Remember, casinos sometimes have bigger than expected earnings due to exceptionally unlucky players. If the casinos only had a "fair mode" and a "suckout mode", then some months you'd see the tables perform as expected, and other months you'd see the casino with a really huge win of its own, but never months where the casino's win is smaller than usual (or a net loss).

But, look at the results of audited casinos, and you'll see that the payout percentages have a fairly normal distribution.

This has nothin to do with theoretics...it has to do with years of EXPERIENCING the games in different environments...lets say it is 1 shoe...and the dealer deals out half the shoe..what are the chances of the same cards coming up on the next hand? Think about it...pretty much none to, but with a reshuffled deck each and every time, the odds of getting the same hand is raised and is not a fair system IMO ...(I am talkin AK,A10 etc...)

See, the reshuffling after every hand actually makes it even more important to stick with basic strategy.

If you're playing a live game, there is always the possibility that something will get out of whack as you progress through the shoe. More high cards, more low cards, whatever. This is what card counting is based on. Also, in rarer circumstances, you might not even get the shoe thoroughly reshuffled in between shoes, meaning that a slug of high or low cards from previously might still exist in the next shoe.

These don't happen with an RNG that shuffles everyhand, because the computer doesn't have to worry about the mechanics of the shuffling procedure. Every hand is like playing a brand new shoe, and all basic strategy is written for a shoe played "off the top" after a fresh shuffle.

But for some reason many of you still believe it is on the up and up and many believe playing perfectly will result in the same thing as real blackjack...and this is where you are very wrong...it is not REAL blackjack...it is a PROGRAM! One cannot beat even in a short run what one cannot have a fair chance at. Online black jack has been set to where it isno longer fair to a player even in short periods of play..

I don't understand why people will still play a game if they think it's rigged (not picking on you specifically silc, as you say, others have expressed feelings similar to yours)

 

[silcnlayc]

a game if they think it's rigged

No where do I say "rigged" That is not my choice of words. Tilted is more like it because there are wins to be had, few and far between but wins there are.

My goal in playing blackjack is to increase my slot play funds and that only. So if I go win two hands in a row (yes, every once in a while they give two in a row up) I leave. It gives me enough to continue my slots play.

But to play continuously...and for any amount of time..you will see a set pattern. I saw it last night trying to get 2 winnig hands. I doubled down on a 10 and 11 against dealers 6 and hit 16 and 17 respectively and dealer pulled out a 20 off a 6 showing. Very next 3 hands (after my double down hand) dealer pulled a bj back to back then another 20 against my 19. That is 3 hands in a row lost after my doubl down loss..this happens religiously..each and EVERY time I double down on a preivious hand (the losses).

So there is a method to their madness...and it is very obvious to someone that has played blackjack for so many years..try it in fun mode, tell me I am wrong..(not that, that would matter, for we all believe what we experience)This is all with anywhere of a $5-$10 bet.


.

 

[EasyRhino]

Hey, I'm not saying there aren't streaks. Last night I was trying to gut out a playthrough requirement on an RTG casino playing blackjack.

At the halfway point in playthrough, just flat-betting, I had lost 22 units. That was about 70% of my starting balance. And then I went on a nice winning streak, got the balance up over my initial balance even, and then lost slightly again to end up with about 4 units left than the starting point.

To what do I attribute the streak of bad luck and good? Absolutely nothing.

 

[suchasmed]

Craps, too.

For what it's worth, (and it may be nothing.)

I was playing Bodog practice craps, shooting on the dark side. (Don't Pass Line.) I was playing along, 5$ bets, table seemed a little choppy, which is how they are some of the time.

I switched to $100 dollar bets and, whammo!

7
7
11
4,4

Wow 4 straight losses, with about the lowest number of rolls.... Switched to the pass line....

1,2 (craps)
8,7 (out)

Back to the Don't pass...
11
7
5,5

When I bet 7 and 11, they suddenly disappear from the rolls as well. I've noted this reaction twice now.

It seemed as though the instant I upped the bet to 100 the game started reacting conversly to whatever I bet, without even attempting to look like random rolls. It may have been just a coincidence, but I dunno. Definitely seemed to trigger with the higher bet. Just wierd, that's all. It's what got me to this thread, a search for rigged games.

Of course, I was in practice mode, so no harm done. But it was uncanny to watch the dice seem to "react" to me.

 

[silcnlayc]

Of course, I was in practice mode, so no harm done. But it was uncanny to watch the dice seem to "react" to me.

Yup, you chose a better choice of words to what happens...

.

 

[love2winalot]

on the other hand......

Hiya: We have all often heard the exact opposite. Refering to practice mode, where as a player Wins a lot more often than they should, or looses the small bets, but when they place a $24, or $100 chip down, they win.

They then switch to, play for real money, and this no longer happens, or as stated by others, the exact opposite happens, causing them to think something is wrong, and that the RNG is not Random at all.

 

[alexbuzz]

can't address the bodog experience as only it's roots are in rtg (didn't notice if you're in us--if not US u should never play in a US facing casino as it could all end tomorrow) but I CAN assure you RTG has no secret swiich that kicks in whenyou shift to a higher bet or whatever. It's a machine, the odds remain the same no matter what you play. Sorry, truth hurts... one week I RULED vegas, couldn't lose--BJ, roulette, even slots; next week, lost it ALL playing heads up BJ at the Rio. it's largely math and a bit of luck--get out when you're up! And enjoy....

 

[silcnlayc]

Sorry, truth hurts

Naw, not at all for ones truth is anothers untruth. Only years of experience will tell it all.

.

 

[royalflusher]

i agree, i asked inetbet to close my account last night. when i first signed up i won royals and RJ's, then after 1 yr of regular playing, I have yet to hit anything good. Just seeing how these same people win RJ's multiple times in the newsletters really ticks me, as I have invested much into trying to hit one. I use to play high bets on VP with perfect strategy, but because it always feels like the good o rtg losing streak comes back once you raise those bets.

Sometimes I have good days, but those good days are not big wins.

Im not going to bash them, just going to spend my money elseware. I was never a bonus user, but I am so dependant on them now because I know I will end up losing, and I keep thinking to myself the extra chips might land me a chance at those RJ's. I have shitty luck or someone hates me.

I remember the good old days when royal flushes was always a possibility if you play perfect, and a ton of hands. Sometimes with a profit, sometimes not, but you do eventually hit one. And I miss those 20k royals. ANyone here been hitting those ? Im too scared to try $5 vp now with my luck

 

[funeral979]

can't address the bodog experience as only it's roots are in rtg (didn't notice if you're in us--if not US u should never play in a US facing casino as it could all end tomorrow) but I CAN assure you RTG has no secret swiich that kicks in whenyou shift to a higher bet or whatever. It's a machine, the odds remain the same no matter what you play. Sorry, truth hurts... one week I RULED vegas, couldn't lose--BJ, roulette, even slots; next week, lost it ALL playing heads up BJ at the Rio. it's largely math and a bit of luck--get out when you're up! And enjoy....

Unless you personally wrote the code for RTG BJ, I don't think anyone can assure us this......

I have been playing RTG & MG BJ online for 8+ years, and I can say for certain that MG BJ plays the same at minimum bet and high stakes, but with RTG this is most certaintly not the case. I have never, ever had a good run playing $50+ a hand.

 

[Rebel2k5]

I use to think that too, after years of random playing here and there at RTG casinos.

Today though though, all my big bets have been hitting. I only deposited $100, gradually got it up to around $210. Started making $5 bets and got back down to $100. I was tired of playing so I said screw it, and played two hands side by side at $50 each. Won that. Did it again, won again.

Got up to $300 a an hour later. Was taking bad beats, horrible bad luck, so I said screw it, didn't care if I lost my original $100 deposit, so with $200 left I bet $100 side by side, and with a dealer showing Q, I actually won because he busted.

So I guess it's just a rare chance big bets hit. Must be a glitch in their coding lol

 

[alexbuzz]

Unless you personally wrote the code for RTG BJ, I don't think anyone can assure us this......

The TST certification for RTG gives us a lot of confidence that there is no "rigging" as such and was one of the reasons we chose to use them.

We know how the math works; last thing we would ever want to do is chase off bigger players by screwing with their odds.

 

[takethemoney]

The TST certification for RTG gives us a lot of confidence that there is no "rigging" as such and was one of the reasons we chose to use them.

We know how the math works; last thing we would ever want to do is chase off bigger players by screwing with their odds.

Doesn't matter to me, you won't let USA players play there. We're big, powerful and have a lot of money, but you don't want some of it.

 

[silcnlayc]

Just seeing how these same people win RJ's multiple times in the newsletters really ticks me, as I have invested much into trying to hit one

You were one of the lucky ones. There are many that have been playing for more than 10 years and never hit a RJ. Only the newer players seem to be hitting multiple times. Which leaves the old dogs to either scrounge around for scraps or uninstall....

Uninstall has been my choice latley after seeing so many noobies htting the RJ on first or second deposits lately at bets that I play at...yup, no star by name I guess. Keeping my money for better days.
.

 

[suchasmed]

More Curious Results

Still playing with Bodog Craps, testing out betting strategies. (I like their interface with no download.) Put up an iron cross with gold streaks. In short, the only way to really lose was with a 4. Suddenly, an indordinate amount of 4's came out of the woodwork. Switched it so a 10 was the only loser, and bam, 2 10's in 3 rolls. Still, overall, could be within the realm of random, just seems uncanny how the dice rolls seem to figure out how to beat me. Like before, I'm staying in practice mode, so no harm no foul.

I guess I'm uneasy in the knowledge that the same computer generating the dice rolls also knows where my bets are. That's the philisophical problem I have with online gaming in general. I love real craps and to a slighly lesser extent, blackjack. I enjoy the gameplay online, but want to feel more comfy with "fairness" before putting in real money. (Yes, I know it's gambling and I'm going to lose sometimes.) I'm very glad for this site, btw, and the chance to vent as well.

I actually like 3dice, and have noted that Club USA is also highly rated. Can I ask for BJ/craps experiences here, or is that another thread?

 

[Markus]

Still playing with Bodog Craps, testing out betting strategies. (I like their interface with no download.) Put up an iron cross with gold streaks. In short, the only way to really lose was with a 4. Suddenly, an indordinate amount of 4's came out of the woodwork. Switched it so a 10 was the only loser, and bam, 2 10's in 3 rolls. Still, overall, could be within the realm of random, just seems uncanny how the dice rolls seem to figure out how to beat me. Like before, I'm staying in practice mode, so no harm no foul.

The fact that you played in practice mode shows how quick a bad run can be misinterpreted as "rigging". There is absolutely no reason for a casino to manipulate the practice mode.

I'm sure that if someone plays with real money and he/she thinks that the casino is rigged, it is most of the time because of this illusive perception and not because the casino is actually rigged.

 

[tommouk]

I put 10k into a MG casino playing BJ and was down to my last 200 - though oh well and went up to 200 a hand and probably an hour later I had 13,500 - didn't check the stats but must be something close to 100 wins v 33 losses if I managed 2 hands a minute...

Sad thing is the casino don't seem happy to pay out my withdrawal but that's another story...

 

[silcnlayc]

There is absolutely no reason for a casino to manipulate the practice mode.

It is the same as realmode...or so they say, that is why you still lose playing for fun ..

.