RTG BJ-unwinnable at higher stakes

funeral979

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Its been awhile since there has been a post on conspiracy theories and such concerning RTG blackjack, so thought I would share my experience over the past year or so.

The majority of my playtime in 2008 was at RTG casinos, and 95% of that with one of the accredited RTG groups here. If you asked me 5-6 years ago I would have said without a doubt that RTG deals the fairest game online. Well obviously alot has changed since then.

I understand that, over the course of thousands and thousands of hands, you will get some long streaks, some good, and some bad (OK lets not fool ourselves here.....you will get a few decent streaks, and MANY unbelievably bad streaks). I had a run of 23 straight losses, as well as at least 10 runs of losing 15 of 17 hands, 14 of 15, 18 of 20, etc, etc. After going thru thousands of hands of which they so kindly sent me on spreadsheets, you would be hard pressed to find ANY winning streaks over 10.....nothing coming close to 23, or even 15 for that matter. The run of 23 straight losses was composed of bets all between $25-$100...with no pushes between.

Now what I have noticed is....if you keep to relatively small wagers (say $1-$10) you will get a pretty balanced game......higher stakes? Forget about it! Even in fun mode, wagering $200 per hand, you will get slaughtered in short order. I am firm in my belief that there is something in the RTG software that is triggered when you bet over $xx that heavily favors the house.

Well after having some pretty bad BJ sessions at my favorite RTG casino, I asked for my payback % at BJ when playing higher stakes in November & December of last year.....

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx

Thanks for contacting us. It is a pleasure to be of your assistance.

Please receive our apologies for the delay in getting back to you. In regards to your previous messages please allow us to provide you the requested percentages for hands played in Blackjack with bets over $50.



November: 62.56 %



December: 35.48 %



As you expected the percentages are low. Keep in mind that this reflects the result of the entire months. Each session you play has a low number of this bets. This will also affect the odds. We are not trying to justify the software, we agree with you when there are sessions that are way too rough, but please not that it is a fact that the results may be affected just considering the amount of bets with that value played. If you would like an Excel file with he hands for November and December please let us know and we will be more than glad to send them.



We hope that soon you will have sessions in which odds present on your favor, winning all the big bets and loosing the small ones.


Well I can assure you that no sessions exist where I won all the big bets and lost all the small ones. As you can see, the %s are a complete joke, but 100% correct.

Even though I did play a small # of hands at these stakes I think I saw enough....and can you blame me? And this is why the players will keep getting screwed under the disguise of fair software. People will flat bet $1 or $2 to 'test' its fairness....and of course the results will come back close to expected, but no one is willing to risk playing thousands of hands at $50-$100 + to test the software.....and im sure the developers know this and have no fear in altering the software, if they so choose, to heavily favor the house when playing high stakes.

Ok there, I said it, im done.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
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I'd love to see those excel files if it's not too much trouble :D

IMO, it's hard to win playing RTG blackjack at low stakes, so I could just imagine what it's like playing at higher stakes. I also remember playing at Geisha Lounge and King Solomons years ago before the UIGEA came to be, and even though RTG's blackjack was still streaky back then, you had just as many good runs as you did bad. Now, it's too lop-sided. In the casino's favor.

It really makes you wonder.

side note: How long did it take you to get your logs?
 

funeral979

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The sent me the logs within a few days, along with a $100 free chip (feelin guilty??) Hard to send me %s like that without some sort of consolation prize.

I deleted them awhile ago, but I just requested them again last nite and would be happy to send them to you.

We are talking about blackjack here paying 35% at high stakes (at least as far as online is concerned) over the course of a month from an ACCREDITED casino!!!
 

funeral979

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Thought I would post my lovely 23 hand losing streak. Appeared I was wrong there is one push in here. Streak ended up being 28 hands with 26 losers, 1 win and 1 push. Wonder if someone could tell me the odds on this event happening?

Notice the discrepancy on first 2 cards dealt. I managed 1 BJ (the push) and best I could manage on the rest of the hands in the streak was one hard 18!

WTG RTG!
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
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I only looked at the first few hands, and I saw at least two occasions where you stood on cards that you shouldn't have. Didn't look further than that though.

Given this scenario, I'd say that a long losing streak like that is not out of the ordinary.
 

funeral979

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Im pretty sure that lines 980/981 were the only ones where I didn't follow basic strategy. Sometimes you try to outthink the computer, especially if you know you are in takedown mode. The hands before this were not exactly pretty either.
 

EasyRhino

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If I'm reading it right (it's small, and not sure if I understand the format):
955, should double A7 v 6
960, should hit 16 v 8 (if that's an 8 I see)
963, did you split 10s? what does that line mean?
981, standing A,8 is actually correct v 10

That's not the point. In just 20ish hands, it's tough to say if those play deviations would have really mattered or not. And I agree that losing 20ish hands in a row is unreal. It's truly a special, horrible, statistical moment for you.

In my experience, playing RTG's blackjack with bets ranging between $5 and 2x$500, the game plays the same at higher stakes as it does at lower stakes. The money just lasts much shorter at higher stakes because it's so much more money.

I'm actually kind of impressed
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
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Heaven
That's not the point. In just 20ish hands, it's tough to say if those play deviations would have really mattered or not.

It stands to reason that any play which is not optimum increases the chance of losing... however small a difference that may be, over any length of time.

Yes, sometimes you win even without optimal play - but don't blame the cards or the casino if you lose more often.
 

handkey

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28 hands losing streak!!!!!:eek::eek:


Take a break when you have a losing streak(more than 20 hands).

Leave away when you have two consecutive losing streak and never come back again.
 

funeral979

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It stands to reason that any play which is not optimum increases the chance of losing... however small a difference that may be, over any length of time.

Yes, sometimes you win even without optimal play - but don't blame the cards or the casino if you lose more often.

I think anyone in the midst of a long losing streak will throw out basic strategy every now and then in hopes to break the streak. And these were minor deviations anyway.

The point is that the software was going to make sure I lost regardless. Just looking at my first 2 cards dealt this should be obvious.

It should be noted that I was playing on a $1,000 manager bonus (with BJ the WR was 100 x bonus with no max cashout - a token $100,000 in wagers:eek:) Maybe in the back of my mind I was playing a little more reckless than I should have thinking there was no way I could clear the WR. But I still had every intention of cashing out SOMETHING.
 

EasyRhino

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Sounds like the casino was being fairly good to you. Managers bonus, CS's running the numbers on your play history, etc.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
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I think anyone in the midst of a long losing streak will throw out basic strategy every now and then in hopes to break the streak. And these were minor deviations anyway.

I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).

Furthermore, your mistakes occurred very early in the streak, and standing on 16 vs. an 8 showing is not a minor deviation.

In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.
 

funeral979

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Oh the CS was great for the most part. I don't blame the casino, which is why I don't mention their name. It's just a shame that the BJ leaves much to be desired.


And believe me, I lost plenty to get the comps I did at this casino.
 

funeral979

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I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).

Furthermore, your mistakes occurred very early in the streak, and standing on 16 vs. an 8 showing is not a minor deviation.

In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.

The hand you are referring to was before the 23 hand losing streak occured. And I made that decision based on patterns I saw in the previous 100 hands or so.

And you can try and discredit my posts if you like, but I think Its a bit much that when I raise my bets to $50+ my payback % falls to 35% over the course of a month (on a game that should bring a payback over 98%). And this was verified by CS.

There have been dozens of threads here over the years complaining of 'rigged" BJ games.....so obviously there are many others who have similar experiences. I never said, "look at this, this is RIGGED" I simply want other players to think twice when they start upping their bets.
 

EasyRhino

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To disclaim, I want to emphasize that 20 losses in a row (or 23 without a win) is amazingly unlucky. I don't think I've come even close to a streak that long (maybe 13 or so). It's just mind-bottling. I'm not sure how many blackjack players you'd have to poll until you find someone else who's had that streak anytime in their life. And you have my sympathies, it totally sucks.

But note that if you're accusing the RTG software of being rigged in general, then it would be a problem at EVERY RTG casino, not just the one store you're playing at. And I've played at some incredibly douchey RTG casinos, and still won money big bets at blackjack (and lost the expected amount, as well). It just doesn't add up.

The hand you are referring to was before the 23 hand losing streak occured. And I made that decision based on patterns I saw in the previous 100 hands or so.

But the RNG just doesn't care about what patterns you see while playing. In fact, even if it was rigged, your hypothesis would have it waiting to pounce only when you raised your bets... not based on previous play history. In your streak of doom, you were losing large and small bets with equal ferocity, changing bets did nothing.
 

Kenny Lingus

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In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.

Yeah, what right do you have to complain, just because you have been getting screwed up the backside?

Just realize that if you complain too much in a public forum such as this one, then some people might not gamble as much, and then the casinos and their affiliates (such as the ones who dominate this forum) might not make as much money. Did you consider this before you started this thread? Or is it all about you and your unrealistic loses?

Some people!:rolleyes:
 

Janek12

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To disclaim, I want to emphasize that 20 losses in a row (or 23 without a win) is amazingly unlucky. I don't think I've come even close to a streak that long (maybe 13 or so). It's just mind-bottling. I'm not sure how many blackjack players you'd have to poll until you find someone else who's had that streak anytime in their life. And you have my sympathies, it totally sucks.

But note that if you're accusing the RTG software of being rigged in general, then it would be a problem at EVERY RTG casino, not just the one store you're playing at. And I've played at some incredibly douchey RTG casinos, and still won money big bets at blackjack (and lost the expected amount, as well). It just doesn't add up.



But the RNG just doesn't care about what patterns you see while playing. In fact, even if it was rigged, your hypothesis would have it waiting to pounce only when you raised your bets... not based on previous play history. In your streak of doom, you were losing large and small bets with equal ferocity, changing bets did nothing.

I personally think that the payout percentage for higher bets at around 30-40 % over the course of a month is much more alarming than a single long streak of losses. The mathematic minds here might calculate the odds of this happening - I would estimate that the probability might be much lower than the probability of the 20+ losses in a row.

And there can be various ways, IMHO, in which software may be rigged.
Remember that the software providers depend on the casinos, so it is vital for them that the casinos do not go bankrupt. For example, if the casino is making the expected profit, then the software might be in "fair mode"; if the casino had incurred a heavy loss due to variance, then the software might go to a "recovery" mode :) (i.e. "player losing mode") and use the higher bets (of which most players will not place sufficient number to be statistically significant, so the risk of a valid complaint by a player is low for the casino) to get back to the level of the needed profit. The possibilities are endless, IMO...:D But only the insiders know the truth; we can only speculate.

My take on this is that at the end of the day, the total payout for a month/year must conform more or less to the statistical expectations otherwise it would be obvious that the software is rigged. So actually, IMO, the player is still facing a random game in any case - but it might be random in the sense that it might be a matter of luck when the switch of the "losing mode" is on or off. The difference from a game in a land-based casino is, IMO, that some mathematical approaches might not work online (I do not mean card counting) because the outcomes of the game do not depend on pure randomness but on the current profit/loss of the specific casino.

I think this theory would conform to reality at least in some respects - because this might be the reason why some players encounter statistically "impossible" occurences. But these players seem to be quite few - and the reason might be that after all there is the house edge so perhaps most of the time the casinos do not have to switch on the "player losing mode", only in real emergency situations - and this could also be automated and the casino might be completely unaware of this, etc., and this might only be a "safeguard" of the software provider to keep the money flowing in - for the casinos and ultimately for the software provider. As I said, I think the possibilities are endless. :)

But, of course, these are only my speculations about what might be possible, IMO.
 

silcnlayc

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I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).
I have to disagree here Rob...for the simple fact that the cards do not play as they would at a regular blackjack table due to being shuffled after EVERY hand. This is the reason one needs to deviate from normal play because you get eaten alive if you play like you should, or what is called by the book.

I cannot tell you how many THOUSANDS of hands I have played in casinos exactly as one should for almost 2 years foolishly and then realized this does NOT pertain to online blackjack because as funeral said
The point is that the software was going to make sure I lost regardless.
I agree with 110% no matter how one plays for I played thousands online correctly and lost more doing it this way than the way I am now which is just as funeral said again...
I think anyone in the midst of a long losing streak will throw out basic strategy every now and then in hopes to break the streak

I have been playing blackjack online for over 10 years and over 35 years in a landbase casino so I really do know something about blackjack.....(and any other card game) and how they fall and the huge difference between the two..online and landbased..

If anyone plays by the book online, they are truly fooling themselves because these cards are NOT the same as live for they do not return the cards after EVERY hand now do they at a real table?
.
 

nickadon

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Well, its sad to see such losing streaks, however, they are not so unreal. The deviation of the cards is WAY too large when there are 6 decks in the shoe. One might see the dealer getting 20-21 for 10-15 times in a row, but you ight see the same thing from the player side. remember, dealer HAS to draw to 17, while the player stands against 5 or 6. If the player drew against a 6, he might get a few 21's of his own.

In any case, these losing streaks are not uncommon in BJ, especially when the deck is shuffled after each round (which is what happens on line). The casino doesnt have to do anything to win in the long run.
 

thelawnet

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I have to disagree here Rob...for the simple fact that the cards do not play as they would at a regular blackjack table due to being shuffled after EVERY hand. This is the reason one needs to deviate from normal play because you get eaten alive if you play like you should, or what is called by the book.


Eh?

The fact that the cards are shuffled every hand means that online play should be exactly by the book. Whereas in a real casino the distribution of the cards left in the shoe is never the theoretical (i.e. 4 aces, 4 2s, 4 3s, etc.)
 

thelawnet

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I cannot agree with that. You should always play according to basic strategy unless you can count cards (which is pointless online).

Furthermore, your mistakes occurred very early in the streak, and standing on 16 vs. an 8 showing is not a minor deviation.

In any case, I do think it's a bit much to complain that the software is rigged.

It's not that bad. But looking at the screenshot it looks like a dealer 6 to me.

Not doubling A7 vs dealer 6 increases the chance of the player winning, but the amount wagered is less. So actually it makes the 26 losses in 28 more unlikely, not less.

Chance of a net loss in bj is only 49.1%.

The player therefore experienced a 1 in 1.5 million event. Pretty nasty for sure, but then people do win lotteries.
 

silcnlayc

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The fact that the cards are shuffled every hand means that online play should be exactly by the book. Whereas in a real casino the distribution of the cards left in the shoe is never the theoretical (i.e. 4 aces, 4 2s, 4 3s, etc.)
This has nothin to do with theoretics...it has to do with years of EXPERIENCING the games in different environments...lets say it is 1 shoe...and the dealer deals out half the shoe..what are the chances of the same cards coming up on the next hand? Think about it...pretty much none to, but with a reshuffled deck each and every time, the odds of getting the same hand is raised and is not a fair system IMO ...(I am talkin AK,A10 etc...)

The win ratio online drops tremendously for a player due to this repeating the same cards...plus the benefit of having a certain percentage built into the casinos favor...so you have 2 things against you playing online unlike a B&M casino, all that is against you is the small percentage for the house..and that can be ridden out if you are patient enough..IMO...whereas online, the same repeated scenerio plays out continuously over and over again, dealer 20 player 19, dealer 21 , player 20 etc...in such short play that it could NEVER be compared to real play, so playing by the book will actually hurt you in the long...years of EXPERIENCE has taught me this..

.
 
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