RTG BJ-unwinnable at higher stakes

[silcnlayc]

The casino doesnt have to do anything to win in the long run.

Very well put...when a card game is tilted so far to the casinos favor...they can't lose...that is why so many have become so frustrated (me included) claiming the software is tilted to the dealer and the casino percentage is not a fair one to a card player.

All these players cannot ALL be wrong now can they when they say it FEELS wrong??? That is like sayin you put your shoes on backwards and can't figure out why your shoes just don't FEEL right until you walk in them for a while.. (not a very good example but hopefully you get what I mean)

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[thelawnet]

This has nothin to do with theoretics...it has to do with years of EXPERIENCING the games in different environments...lets say it is 1 shoe...and the dealer deals out half the shoe..what are the chances of the same cards coming up on the next hand? Think about it...pretty much none to, but with a reshuffled deck each and every time, the odds of getting the same hand is raised and is not a fair system IMO ...(I am talkin AK,A10 etc...)

The odds of AK is exactly the same for dealer and player, and is 8/169 for an infinite deck just under 5%. Of course if you've just removed AK from the deck, then the odds of it coming out the next time are less, but if you just got a blackjack then you'd quite like another one wouldn't you.

The win ratio online drops tremendously for a player due to this repeating the same cards...

Why? If you just got a bj in real life the expected payback the next hand will be a fair bit lower due to the missing Ace/ten. Whereas online the payback is exactly the same. It works both ways having a greater chance for hands to repeat.

plus the benefit of having a certain percentage built into the casinos favor...so you have 2 things against you playing online unlike a B&M casino, all that is against you is the small percentage for the house..and that can be ridden out if you are patient enough..

You have that backwards. The small percentage for the house if you are patient enough is GUARANTEED to get you. In the short term you can win and win big, but the more you play, the greater the chance that you will end up a loser. That's the fact of gambling - play 100 hands and your expected loss is 100 times more than 1 hand. But the variance is only 10 times as much. So the variance becomes less significant relative to the house advantage the more you play.

That variance by the way is the only thing that keeps players in casinos, because otherwise they'd just toss the casino 2 cents out of every dollar and then go home.

IMO...whereas online, the same repeated scenerio plays out continuously over and over again, dealer 20 player 19, dealer 21 , player 20 etc...in such short play that it could NEVER be compared to real play, so playing by the book will actually hurt you in the long...years of EXPERIENCE has taught me this..
.

I've got plenty of experience, but I can also run an analysis of every combination of cards for a one, two, four, six, eight deck game, etc., in a few seconds that is equivalent to me or you playing blackjack for a thousand lifetimes. Those are the real numbers - the ones that teach you to hit on 16 even though you always seem to bust, to double on soft hands even when it might seem it's likely to make your hand worse, etc.

 

[silcnlayc]

The odds of AK is exactly the same for dealer and player

Maybe you believe that these cards play the same as real live blackjack..once again, you are fooling yourself...this is a game created by numbers and can be manipulated to the casinos favor...this is NOT real black jack...I think many lose sight of this and when some anomoly happens all the " number wizards" say ah well that was a 1.2 in a million happening but it happens...Um , no , it just doesn't HAPPEN, it was PROGRAMMED to happen...it is NOT REAL BLACKJACK....

It is software that is set in place to give back what the casino wants and if it was ever so slightly tilted to the casinos favor one will know after playing for a number of years, again, I say, one will KNOW when something has changed..I guess maybe that is what I am trying to say..software CAN be set to pay out a certain amount...unlike a live game..there it is pretty much random without any programmers playing with the settings..

But for some reason many of you still believe it is on the up and up and many believe playing perfectly will result in the same thing as real blackjack...and this is where you are very wrong...it is not REAL blackjack...it is a PROGRAM! One cannot beat even in a short run what one cannot have a fair chance at. Online black jack has been set to where it isno longer fair to a player even in short periods of play..

All my opinion of course but I do not seem to be alone in this feeling lately...

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[funeral979]

Maybe you believe that these cards play the same as real live blackjack..once again, you are fooling yourself...this is a game created by numbers and can be manipulated to the casinos favor...this is NOT real black jack...I think many lose sight of this and when some anomoly happens all the " number wizards" say ah well that was a 1.2 in a million happening but it happens...Um , no , it just doesn't HAPPEN, it was PROGRAMMED to happen...it is NOT REAL BLACKJACK....

It is software that is set in place to give back what the casino wants and if it was ever so slightly tilted to the casinos favor one will know after playing for a number of years, again, I say, one will KNOW when something has changed..I guess maybe that is what I am trying to say..software CAN be set to pay out a certain amount...unlike a live game..there it is pretty much random without any programmers playing with the settings..

But for some reason many of you still believe it is on the up and up and many believe playing perfectly will result in the same thing as real blackjack...and this is where you are very wrong...it is not REAL blackjack...it is a PROGRAM! One cannot beat even in a short run what one cannot have a fair chance at. Online black jack has been set to where it isno longer fair to a player even in short periods of play..

All my opinion of course but I do not seem to be alone in this feeling lately...

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Well im glad someone feels the same as I do. When its the computers time to win,it wont matter what you do, YOU WILL LOSE. I cannot believe it is random. I could post here many,many other runs of streaks quite similar to the 23 hand losing streak.Those of 18 out of 20 losses, 22 out of 25 losses, etc Funny, after looking thru thousands of hands of BJ, I cannot find ONE streak of more than 11 straight wins. And we are talking about $5-$15 hands on the winning streaks.

And I have been playing BJ online for close to 10 years....and I do tire of people saying, "oh, you will get runs like that, you are just on the wrong side of the variance...blah blah blah. Why do we never here of such runs in the players favor?

Oh wait........there was the Cipher program

Have a good one

 

[Markus]

Why do we never here of such runs in the players favor?

You have more losing streaks then winning streaks, because in Blackjack the chance of losing a game is significant higher then winning a game (if you bust you have lost regardless the dealer would bust or not). But this is compensated by Doubles, Splits and Blackjack pays 3:2, therefore you have only a house edge of around 0,5%.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya. It seems to me then, the thing to do, what i did, is to stop playing BJ, or if you play, go back to the $1 min $5 max bet.

This is why i play Roulette. Unless the RNG waits for you to place your chips, and then hit Spin, and then, "SEE", where your chips are at, and cause a losing # to appear, it cannot cheat you. And if it was in Cheat Mode, and you bet High & Low, and Red & black, and Odd & Even, and each dozen, & each colum & covered the 0, would the cheating RNG get stuck in a Loop looking for the losing bet and blow up?

The point being.
Play for the love of a certain game/machine, and win or lose it is all good, or
Play to Win, and find a game/machine that is not cheating, and you are winning at. It just comes down to what is more important to YOU.....

 

[nickadon]

You have more losing streaks then winning streaks, because in Blackjack the chance of losing a game is significant higher then winning a game (if you bust you have lost regardless the dealer would bust or not). But this is compensated by Doubles, Splits and Blackjack pays 3:2, therefore you have only a house edge of around 0,5%.

Right to the point! Actually, this is the main difference between player and dealer: when BOTH bust, the player loses! If you played the same way the dealer plays, you would get pretty much the same outcome. But we tend to remember the bad things (like busting "so often" from 12) and forget the good ones (like drawing a 5 to 16 = 21). Another example is "hidden BJ": we get angry at 10 + Ace hole card, but we never do the same when we get a bj with the SECOND card being an Ace, which is exactly the same as a hidden bj.

 

[EasyRhino]

For example, if the casino is making the expected profit, then the software might be in "fair mode"; if the casino had incurred a heavy loss due to variance, then the software might go to a "recovery" mode (i.e. "player losing mode") and use the higher bets (of which most players will not place sufficient number to be statistically significant, so the risk of a valid complaint by a player is low for the casino) to get back to the level of the needed profit.

Here's how I think we can see that there's a hole in your theory Janek. Remember, casinos sometimes have bigger than expected earnings due to exceptionally unlucky players. If the casinos only had a "fair mode" and a "suckout mode", then some months you'd see the tables perform as expected, and other months you'd see the casino with a really huge win of its own, but never months where the casino's win is smaller than usual (or a net loss).

But, look at the results of audited casinos, and you'll see that the payout percentages have a fairly normal distribution.

This has nothin to do with theoretics...it has to do with years of EXPERIENCING the games in different environments...lets say it is 1 shoe...and the dealer deals out half the shoe..what are the chances of the same cards coming up on the next hand? Think about it...pretty much none to, but with a reshuffled deck each and every time, the odds of getting the same hand is raised and is not a fair system IMO ...(I am talkin AK,A10 etc...)

See, the reshuffling after every hand actually makes it even more important to stick with basic strategy.

If you're playing a live game, there is always the possibility that something will get out of whack as you progress through the shoe. More high cards, more low cards, whatever. This is what card counting is based on. Also, in rarer circumstances, you might not even get the shoe thoroughly reshuffled in between shoes, meaning that a slug of high or low cards from previously might still exist in the next shoe.

These don't happen with an RNG that shuffles everyhand, because the computer doesn't have to worry about the mechanics of the shuffling procedure. Every hand is like playing a brand new shoe, and all basic strategy is written for a shoe played "off the top" after a fresh shuffle.

But for some reason many of you still believe it is on the up and up and many believe playing perfectly will result in the same thing as real blackjack...and this is where you are very wrong...it is not REAL blackjack...it is a PROGRAM! One cannot beat even in a short run what one cannot have a fair chance at. Online black jack has been set to where it isno longer fair to a player even in short periods of play..

I don't understand why people will still play a game if they think it's rigged (not picking on you specifically silc, as you say, others have expressed feelings similar to yours)

 

[silcnlayc]

a game if they think it's rigged

No where do I say "rigged" That is not my choice of words. Tilted is more like it because there are wins to be had, few and far between but wins there are.

My goal in playing blackjack is to increase my slot play funds and that only. So if I go win two hands in a row (yes, every once in a while they give two in a row up) I leave. It gives me enough to continue my slots play.

But to play continuously...and for any amount of time..you will see a set pattern. I saw it last night trying to get 2 winnig hands. I doubled down on a 10 and 11 against dealers 6 and hit 16 and 17 respectively and dealer pulled out a 20 off a 6 showing. Very next 3 hands (after my double down hand) dealer pulled a bj back to back then another 20 against my 19. That is 3 hands in a row lost after my doubl down loss..this happens religiously..each and EVERY time I double down on a preivious hand (the losses).

So there is a method to their madness...and it is very obvious to someone that has played blackjack for so many years..try it in fun mode, tell me I am wrong..(not that, that would matter, for we all believe what we experience)This is all with anywhere of a $5-$10 bet.


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[EasyRhino]

Hey, I'm not saying there aren't streaks. Last night I was trying to gut out a playthrough requirement on an RTG casino playing blackjack.

At the halfway point in playthrough, just flat-betting, I had lost 22 units. That was about 70% of my starting balance. And then I went on a nice winning streak, got the balance up over my initial balance even, and then lost slightly again to end up with about 4 units left than the starting point.

To what do I attribute the streak of bad luck and good? Absolutely nothing.

 

[suchasmed]

Craps, too.

For what it's worth, (and it may be nothing.)

I was playing Bodog practice craps, shooting on the dark side. (Don't Pass Line.) I was playing along, 5$ bets, table seemed a little choppy, which is how they are some of the time.

I switched to $100 dollar bets and, whammo!

7
7
11
4,4

Wow 4 straight losses, with about the lowest number of rolls.... Switched to the pass line....

1,2 (craps)
8,7 (out)

Back to the Don't pass...
11
7
5,5

When I bet 7 and 11, they suddenly disappear from the rolls as well. I've noted this reaction twice now.

It seemed as though the instant I upped the bet to 100 the game started reacting conversly to whatever I bet, without even attempting to look like random rolls. It may have been just a coincidence, but I dunno. Definitely seemed to trigger with the higher bet. Just wierd, that's all. It's what got me to this thread, a search for rigged games.

Of course, I was in practice mode, so no harm done. But it was uncanny to watch the dice seem to "react" to me.

 

[silcnlayc]

Of course, I was in practice mode, so no harm done. But it was uncanny to watch the dice seem to "react" to me.

Yup, you chose a better choice of words to what happens...

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[love2winalot]

on the other hand......

Hiya: We have all often heard the exact opposite. Refering to practice mode, where as a player Wins a lot more often than they should, or looses the small bets, but when they place a $24, or $100 chip down, they win.

They then switch to, play for real money, and this no longer happens, or as stated by others, the exact opposite happens, causing them to think something is wrong, and that the RNG is not Random at all.

 

[alexbuzz]

can't address the bodog experience as only it's roots are in rtg (didn't notice if you're in us--if not US u should never play in a US facing casino as it could all end tomorrow) but I CAN assure you RTG has no secret swiich that kicks in whenyou shift to a higher bet or whatever. It's a machine, the odds remain the same no matter what you play. Sorry, truth hurts... one week I RULED vegas, couldn't lose--BJ, roulette, even slots; next week, lost it ALL playing heads up BJ at the Rio. it's largely math and a bit of luck--get out when you're up! And enjoy....

 

[silcnlayc]

Sorry, truth hurts

Naw, not at all for ones truth is anothers untruth. Only years of experience will tell it all.

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[royalflusher]

i agree, i asked inetbet to close my account last night. when i first signed up i won royals and RJ's, then after 1 yr of regular playing, I have yet to hit anything good. Just seeing how these same people win RJ's multiple times in the newsletters really ticks me, as I have invested much into trying to hit one. I use to play high bets on VP with perfect strategy, but because it always feels like the good o rtg losing streak comes back once you raise those bets.

Sometimes I have good days, but those good days are not big wins.

Im not going to bash them, just going to spend my money elseware. I was never a bonus user, but I am so dependant on them now because I know I will end up losing, and I keep thinking to myself the extra chips might land me a chance at those RJ's. I have shitty luck or someone hates me.

I remember the good old days when royal flushes was always a possibility if you play perfect, and a ton of hands. Sometimes with a profit, sometimes not, but you do eventually hit one. And I miss those 20k royals. ANyone here been hitting those ? Im too scared to try $5 vp now with my luck

 

[funeral979]

can't address the bodog experience as only it's roots are in rtg (didn't notice if you're in us--if not US u should never play in a US facing casino as it could all end tomorrow) but I CAN assure you RTG has no secret swiich that kicks in whenyou shift to a higher bet or whatever. It's a machine, the odds remain the same no matter what you play. Sorry, truth hurts... one week I RULED vegas, couldn't lose--BJ, roulette, even slots; next week, lost it ALL playing heads up BJ at the Rio. it's largely math and a bit of luck--get out when you're up! And enjoy....

Unless you personally wrote the code for RTG BJ, I don't think anyone can assure us this......

I have been playing RTG & MG BJ online for 8+ years, and I can say for certain that MG BJ plays the same at minimum bet and high stakes, but with RTG this is most certaintly not the case. I have never, ever had a good run playing $50+ a hand.

 

[Rebel2k5]

I use to think that too, after years of random playing here and there at RTG casinos.

Today though though, all my big bets have been hitting. I only deposited $100, gradually got it up to around $210. Started making $5 bets and got back down to $100. I was tired of playing so I said screw it, and played two hands side by side at $50 each. Won that. Did it again, won again.

Got up to $300 a an hour later. Was taking bad beats, horrible bad luck, so I said screw it, didn't care if I lost my original $100 deposit, so with $200 left I bet $100 side by side, and with a dealer showing Q, I actually won because he busted.

So I guess it's just a rare chance big bets hit. Must be a glitch in their coding lol

 

[alexbuzz]

Unless you personally wrote the code for RTG BJ, I don't think anyone can assure us this......

The TST certification for RTG gives us a lot of confidence that there is no "rigging" as such and was one of the reasons we chose to use them.

We know how the math works; last thing we would ever want to do is chase off bigger players by screwing with their odds.

 

[takethemoney]

The TST certification for RTG gives us a lot of confidence that there is no "rigging" as such and was one of the reasons we chose to use them.

We know how the math works; last thing we would ever want to do is chase off bigger players by screwing with their odds.

Doesn't matter to me, you won't let USA players play there. We're big, powerful and have a lot of money, but you don't want some of it.

 

[silcnlayc]

Just seeing how these same people win RJ's multiple times in the newsletters really ticks me, as I have invested much into trying to hit one

You were one of the lucky ones. There are many that have been playing for more than 10 years and never hit a RJ. Only the newer players seem to be hitting multiple times. Which leaves the old dogs to either scrounge around for scraps or uninstall....

Uninstall has been my choice latley after seeing so many noobies htting the RJ on first or second deposits lately at bets that I play at...yup, no star by name I guess. Keeping my money for better days.
.

 

[suchasmed]

More Curious Results

Still playing with Bodog Craps, testing out betting strategies. (I like their interface with no download.) Put up an iron cross with gold streaks. In short, the only way to really lose was with a 4. Suddenly, an indordinate amount of 4's came out of the woodwork. Switched it so a 10 was the only loser, and bam, 2 10's in 3 rolls. Still, overall, could be within the realm of random, just seems uncanny how the dice rolls seem to figure out how to beat me. Like before, I'm staying in practice mode, so no harm no foul.

I guess I'm uneasy in the knowledge that the same computer generating the dice rolls also knows where my bets are. That's the philisophical problem I have with online gaming in general. I love real craps and to a slighly lesser extent, blackjack. I enjoy the gameplay online, but want to feel more comfy with "fairness" before putting in real money. (Yes, I know it's gambling and I'm going to lose sometimes.) I'm very glad for this site, btw, and the chance to vent as well.

I actually like 3dice, and have noted that Club USA is also highly rated. Can I ask for BJ/craps experiences here, or is that another thread?

 

[Markus]

Still playing with Bodog Craps, testing out betting strategies. (I like their interface with no download.) Put up an iron cross with gold streaks. In short, the only way to really lose was with a 4. Suddenly, an indordinate amount of 4's came out of the woodwork. Switched it so a 10 was the only loser, and bam, 2 10's in 3 rolls. Still, overall, could be within the realm of random, just seems uncanny how the dice rolls seem to figure out how to beat me. Like before, I'm staying in practice mode, so no harm no foul.

The fact that you played in practice mode shows how quick a bad run can be misinterpreted as "rigging". There is absolutely no reason for a casino to manipulate the practice mode.

I'm sure that if someone plays with real money and he/she thinks that the casino is rigged, it is most of the time because of this illusive perception and not because the casino is actually rigged.

 

[tommouk]

I put 10k into a MG casino playing BJ and was down to my last 200 - though oh well and went up to 200 a hand and probably an hour later I had 13,500 - didn't check the stats but must be something close to 100 wins v 33 losses if I managed 2 hands a minute...

Sad thing is the casino don't seem happy to pay out my withdrawal but that's another story...

 

[silcnlayc]

There is absolutely no reason for a casino to manipulate the practice mode.

It is the same as realmode...or so they say, that is why you still lose playing for fun ..

.