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Welcome to Live Support my name is Brian how may I be of assistance?
Terry: Hello Brian.
Terry: I won 100 dollars with a no deposit bonus at Winward casino and now I would like to withdraw but Neteller does not allow transferring money too and from gambling sites. So how do I withdraw my money?
Brian: So far, Neteller does allow such transactions
Terry: Would you like the email they just sent me?
Brian: Just send it over, and I'll ask my colleagues to check on this
Email - Response (Daniel) - 21/08/2010 11.00 PM Dear Terry, Thank you for your email, Unfortunately you are not allowed to transfer to or from any gambling sites, if you are in Canada. Sorry for the inconvenience. Should you have any questions or feel you have received this email in error, please contact our Customer Service Team available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at
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. Thank you for choosing NETELLER! Daniel Contact Centre Agent (2180)
(Why anyone would want to follow Neteller on Twitter is beyond me but that's beside the point.)
Terry: Why do you think I use Moneybookers instead of Neteller?
Brian: Thank you, I will let the internal departments know about this
Terry: If there is no way to withdraw this money without depositing I certainly hope you will no longer call this a no deposit bonus.
Brian: The deposit solution is basically a solution for the client to obtain the winnings that would be unobtainable otherwise
Terry: Free means I don't pay and no deposit means I don't need to deposit.
Brian: It's like telling you that you have to options to cross a river
Terry: If I need to make a deposit and then clear a wage requirement then this is actually a deposit bonus.
Brian: you either use the bridge or swim across it
Brian: And the situation here, seems like the bridge collapsed
Brian: so the other option is getting wet
Brian: I see that there seems to be a misunderstanding
Terry: ?
Brian: If I may be so bold to point this out
Brian: if you read the text from the NETeller agent
Brian: It indicates, that if you're from Canada, you can't use NETeller for gaming sites
Terry: Yes.
Brian: That is what struck me as odd
Terry: And I am from Canada.
Terry: As stated in my profile.
Brian: US and Canada cant use NETeller for gaming sites
Brian: Other countries can
Terry: And?
Brian: Well, that means the no-deposit bonus is still called a no deposit bonus
Terry: Nobody told me that this was a ND bonus for everyone except Canada and the US.
Brian: And for US and Canada, that means that unfortunately, they need to make a deposit in order to cash out their trial bonus winnings
Terry: Ok.
Terry: Well, that's really a shame.
Brian: 2 things I want to clarify
Terry: This time it's the Neteller thing. Next time it will be some other problem.
Brian: 1) gambling carries a risk of loss
Brian: If you just play without making a deposit, it's not gambling
Brian: 2) we always pay our clients, as long as they fulfill the requirements we have
Brian: As long as you follow the rules, we pay the winnings without a problem
Brian: And we do pay, we've been in the business for almost 10 years
Terry: You're not looking at this from the player's point of view.
Brian: And trust me when I say, I've seen clients getting paid almost immediately as long as they have their accounts good to go
Brian: I am
Terry: You just assume that because you tell people you're honest everyone will believe you.
Brian: Because I used to be a player
Brian: And I ran into problems with a couple of sites
Brian: So I know what you mean
Brian: The trouble here, is that you're simply assuming the worst
Terry: I have to assume the worst.
Brian: which is ok, because that's being prudent
Brian: The issue is
Brian: If you don't trust a gaming site, then the gaming site will treat you equally in turn
Terry: Wrong.
Terry: If I don't trust a gaming site and they want me to trust them they will work to earn my trust.
Terry: That is good business.
Terry: Trust is earned. Not handed on a silver platter.
Brian: Not exactly
Terry: Yes. Trust is most certainly earned.
Terry: And lost.
Brian: In any case, if you don't want to make use of our services, you may do as you wish
Terry: Ok.
Brian: We provide you good service, and honesty (as all of our rules are on site, no 'secret company policies')
Brian: If you don't wish that, then there is nothing to discuss
Terry: You offered me a no deposit bonus that requires I make a deposit to claim.
Terry: That, in my opinion is dishonest.
Terry: You might not like it but that is my opinion.
Brian: Certainly you're trying to give us a hard time
Terry: You're not giving me a hard time?
Terry: lol
Brian: Because what I offered was an alternate solution that does not go against the established rules of the site
Terry: You offered me a solution to give you my money.
Terry: How is that a solution?
Brian: Because it gives you several options
Terry: You want me to deposit and then meet a wage requirement on my own money.
Terry: Why would I have to meet a wage requirement on my own money?
Brian: 1) it allows you to withdraw your winnings you made from money that isn't from your pocket
Brian: 2) it opens up more payout options for you (depositors can make use of much many options than just NETeller)
Terry: If I was to deposit I wouldn't take a bonus. I would just play with my own money and not worry about a wage requirement. That's how I gamble.
Brian: 3) you can withdraw much more than just the max $150
Brian: Well then, certainly Winward casino isn't for you then
Terry: But I can pretty much guarantee you that if I deposit and start playing now I will lose.
Brian: As you can't gamble here without meeting wagering criteria
Terry: Ok, lets do it this way...
Terry: If I decide to deposit to claim this money...
Terry: How much do I have to deposit?
Brian: $25 ($24.99) is the minimum deposit
Terry: Ok.
Terry: So I deposit 25 dollars. That's peanuts.
Terry: How much do I have to wager?
Brian: 12 times the deposit amount and 12 times the bonus amount
Terry: What bonus amount?
Brian: After that wagering is done, anything on the balance can be withdrawn
Terry: What bonus?
Brian: All deposits come with a deposit bonus
Terry: Even if I don't want the bonus?
Brian: You still get the bonus
Terry: Why would I be forced to take a bonus?
Terry: lol
Terry: How much is the bonus?
Brian: Even if you don't get the bonus, you still have to cover the wagering
Brian: The first deposit bonus is 222% (currently)
Terry: So if I don't take the bonus I have to wager 12x my deposit before I withdraw?
Brian: You still have to cover all the wagering requirements, even if you dont take the bonus
Terry: Including the bonus?
Terry: That I didn't take?
Brian: Exactly
Terry: Ok, lets do the math.
Brian: Allow me a moment to shed some light on this
Brian: The bonus is always given due to this
Brian: 1) it's a way of saying thank you for your business with us
Brian: 2) it's extra money to give you a boost to make more wagers
Terry: So if I deposit 25 dollars and take no bonus I have to wager 966 dollars before I can cash out?
Brian: yes, I know it lifts the wagering criteria up, a skilled/lucky player will still be able to cover the requirements
Terry: But I don't want the bonus. So I start with 25 dollars of my own money and still have a $966 WR before I can cash out?
Brian: $300 from the deposit (12x$25) and $666 from the bonus (12x $55.5)
Brian: Correct
Brian: But then, anything in the balance at that point afterwards, can be cashed out
Terry: Wow.
Terry: 966 dollars wagered on a 25 dollar deposit?
Brian: So, if you're good/lucky, and you have, say, $1000+, you can cash out
Terry: I'm not that lucky.
Brian: Remember that gambling is inherently a risk vs. reward situation
Terry: There should be a max WR of 1x on a deposit with no bonus.
Brian: If you're not willing to take the risk, you can't expect to achieve a reward
Terry: I'm taking a risk everytime I make a wager with my own money.
Brian: There are several reasons as to why there is a wagering requirement
Terry: To make it impossible for people to cash out?
Terry: Bonuses should not be forced on players.
Brian: Not at all -and please, don't try to be snarky-
Brian: It's because we avoid the danger of money laundering
Terry: A 1x WR avoids money laundering.
Brian: If you just want to deposit, and then, take your money out, it's suspicious
Brian: Not quite
Brian: 1x is too low and very easy to cover
Terry: 12x on my own money without a bonus only makes it impossible to win.
Terry: Most reputable casinos do not require a large WR on deposits without bonuses.
Brian: Most other casinos will require you to go with 30x, 60x and even 120x wagering requirements
Brian: And I've played at them, and worked for them as well
Terry: Actually it's more like 10x or 20x and that's only if you take a bonus.
Brian: This, in my opinion, and not because I work here, it's a very good requirement
Terry: No bonus means no WR.
Brian: the 12x/12x
Terry: Except for Sun Palace. I think they have a 5x on deposits without bonuses.
Brian: Well, unfortunately, we operate on this policy on wagering criteria
Terry: Ok.
Brian: (unfortunately, from your perceived point of view)
Terry: Well, this bonus was completely useless because it's not really a no deposit bonus.
Brian: It works, and we do have winning customers each week
Brian: So I believe our discussion is done
And another casino is added to the list of casinos that will never get my money.