RealTime Gaming and Caribbean 21

[jetset]

An interesting observation made at WOL by Adriches - Phoenician:

"As far as commenting about Hamptons - you must realize i have to be diplomatic about this and the only thing i can really add to what i have said above ( ie we paid the player and welcome him back ) is if a casino is prepared to raise limits then they need to be prepared to pay.

"What were they thinking as they were watching his play go from 200k to 300k to 400k etc it was their decision to chase the losses and now they have to deal with it.

"However if he did use a bot and it is against their terms then that raises another issue which they now have to deal with not me . I personally dont think he used a bot and even if he did it is not set to perfect play so go figure.

"The game itself is a pretty aggresive sort of game and if you get on a good run you can do some damage either way."

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

Alright LemmeSeeHere, I'll bite.

Do you mind if I ask, how is it that you've come across this knowledge incident to this previously unheard of "MONTANA" who is based in Panama? Would you care to divulge any additional information about "MONTANA" and the royalty arrangement that exists between Realtime Gaming and this person?

By the way welcome to the forum.

Montana isn't a person, its a company the operators pay their royalties to.

Real time can't help it if they have dead beat licensees that are stupid enough to keep raising a guys limits hoping he will lose it back.

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

BTW - Pirate's best defence (as his posts clearly demonstrate) is that he is too stupid to have programmed a bot. I make him an underdog to get a Rumba in action effectively.

 

[portia]

Thank you for the reply Mike McMain.

Understand that the fees, royalties and such is outside the technical area of discussion that you intended for this thread.

Also appreciate your point that examining play logs cannot definitively answer the the question DID the player use a robot. Because a person is always able to play the same strategy that a robot would play, BUT ...

Do you think that if the logs show that the player used a different strategy in situations were the same hands were on the table would strongly indicate a human player, ie , that the player DID NOT use a robot?

 

[spearmaster]

Understand that the fees, royalties and such is outside the technical area of discussion that you intended for this thread.

Disagree. He was the one who brought up the issue of royalties himself - I believe that he should take the opportunity to explain himself.

Actually, someone else brought up the issue of royalties but he directly addressed this with an answer that has been challenged with factual information. To simply ignore it now would speak more loudly than directly responding to the issue.

 

[GrandMaster]

Do you think that if the logs show that the player used a different strategy in situations were the same hands were on the table would strongly indicate a human player, ie , that the player DID NOT use a robot?

If he was consistently "lucky" when he deviated from the correct strategy, it could indicate that he hacked into the system or exploited a bug, whether he used a robot or not. A robot could also be programmed to make an occasional mistake, if someone really wanted to cover his tracks.

 

[jyde]

Come on! Hacking was NEVER an issue - and there are aren't any bugs.

 

[Gamblegirl]

Software Sales and Licensing
RealTime Gaming software is exclusively represented by Montana Overseas, based in the Republic of Panama. For licensing information, please contact [email protected]

Old / Expired Link

 

[cipher]

Software Sales and Licensing
RealTime Gaming software is exclusively represented by Montana Overseas, based in the Republic of Panama. For licensing information, please contact [email protected]

Old / Expired Link

Thanks for the assist Gamblegirl.

 

[portia]

Grandmaster -

Well, ah ... You seem to have missed an aaawwwful lot of what has transpired here over the past weeks.

The scenario that you are trying conjure up from the grave is along the lines of what many people USED to entertain as a possibility. But ...

1) When you check with people that really know about the subject you raised, they would tell you that there is no way - zero chance of this;

2) And as to somehow intercepting a packet of cards to be dealt, that have been sent but not played yet, and de-crypting them to get pre-play knowledge of unexposed cards - well the problem with that notion is that RTG does not send cards in advance; and then finally, the kicker is ...

3) RTG says that they checked for what you have offered us as insight and they concluded that it did not happen.

Mr McMain is the above reasonably correct?

[It is an accomplishment for me that i can even navigate my way to this website]

Those with experience and knowledge of this game, including from the casino/SW side have said that the the 1.3 million win at $10,000 a hand is well within the bounds of reasonable probability for this highly volatile game.

 

[portia]

GambleGirl : You are resourceful. Again. and Again.

 

[caruso]

If he was consistently "lucky" when he deviated from the correct strategy, it could indicate that he hacked into the system or exploited a bug, whether he used a robot or not.

Of course. Ask any "quality" RTG and they'll tell you that all players who cash out a win are liars, fraudsters, cheats, hackers and general career criminals.

That's been RTG's business philosophy from the start. That's why RTG licensees try to pull a stunt for most any cashout bigger than mid four figures.

The Angelciti shares pimp I spoke to last year regarding their support of the shares of that then hugely maligned company told me that, for all he knew, I was a computer hacker myself.

Because I won a grand total of SEVEN $500 betting units.

Oh yes, RTG loathe and despise winners from the bottom of their guts.

 

[RTG_MMcMain]

Grandmaster -
Mr McMain is the above reasonably correct?

[It is an accomplishment for me that i can even navigate my way to this website]

Those with experience and knowledge of this game, including from the casino/SW side have said that the the 1.3 million win at $10,000 a hand is well within the bounds of reasonable probability for this highly volatile game.

I might be easier for me to answer this one question rather than your BOT question above. I am not trying to dodge that one, but BOT is such a loosley used, broad term that could mean so many things I think it would be impossible for any of us on this forum to prove anything with pure conjecture.

But in answer to your above question, a casino with $10,000 limits and a lot of players playing at those limits could expect a great number of $1M+ players. Like you stated, the variance of the game is high enough that "someone" is going to be a winner.

 

[spearmaster]

Funny shit.

You might not be dodging a BOT question but you sure as hell are dodging the ROYALTY question. Not exactly very courteous when you said you would be coming in here to answer questions - and especially when you were actually welcomed in here.

So I will simply make the assumption that RTG is essentially Montana, and that either/or does indeed collect royalties, and thus could be held partly responsible for this fiasco.

Please correct me if I'm wrong - with facts to back it up.

 

[spearmaster]

Just for the public record:

Strange that MontanaOverseas.com was only registered last year...

Organization:
montana overseas
fernando aleman
Plaza Bal Harbour #38
Panama, PA 000000
PA
Phone: (507)214-8553
Fax..: (507)269-8735
Email:

Registrar Name....: Register.com
Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com
Registrar Homepage: Link Removed (invalid URL)

Domain Name: MONTANAOVERSEAS.COM

Created on..............: Mon, Jun 23, 2003
Expires on..............: Thu, Jun 23, 2005
Record last updated on..: Wed, Jul 02, 2003

Administrative Contact:
montana overseas
fernando aleman
Plaza Bal Harbour #38
Panama, PA 000000
PA
Phone: (507)214-8553
Fax..: (507)269-8735
Email:

Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Register.Com
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue - 11th Floor
New York, NY 10018
US
Phone: 902-749-2701
Fax..: 902-749-5429
Email:

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS7.REGISTER.COM 216.21.234.74
DNS8.REGISTER.COM 216.21.226.74

 

[cipher]

Just for the public record:

Strange that MontanaOverseas.com was only registered last year...

Organization:
montana overseas
fernando aleman
Plaza Bal Harbour #38
Panama, PA 000000
PA
Phone: (507)214-8553
Fax..: (507)269-8735
Email:

Registrar Name....: Register.com
Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com
Registrar Homepage: Link Removed (invalid URL)

Domain Name: MONTANAOVERSEAS.COM

Created on..............: Mon, Jun 23, 2003
Expires on..............: Thu, Jun 23, 2005
Record last updated on..: Wed, Jul 02, 2003

Administrative Contact:
montana overseas
fernando aleman
Plaza Bal Harbour #38
Panama, PA 000000
PA
Phone: (507)214-8553
Fax..: (507)269-8735
Email:

Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Register.Com
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue - 11th Floor
New York, NY 10018
US
Phone: 902-749-2701
Fax..: 902-749-5429
Email:

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS7.REGISTER.COM 216.21.234.74
DNS8.REGISTER.COM 216.21.226.74

Thanks for the assist Spear.

 

[jyde]

Software Sales and Licensing
RealTime Gaming software is exclusively represented by Montana Overseas, based in the Republic of Panama. For licensing information, please contact [email protected]

Old / Expired Link

Interesting. Never saw that before. According to the wayback machine this must have come up after June last year. Until then they had a questionnaire for potential clients under

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ok - they now have a Panamabased company for collecting royalties - probably for legal and tax reasons. But does anyone here believe RTG stopped collecting royalties just like that

 

[dekel]

But in answer to your above question, a casino with $10,000 limits and a lot of players playing at those limits could expect a great number of $1M+ players. Like you stated, the variance of the game is high enough that "someone" is going to be a winner.

Well said michael. As an operator of an RTG casino i can vouch for this. To put in into context if the limit on the game was $200 per hand is it possible a person with a good run could win 1/50th of a million ie $20,000 - the answer has to be yes it is possible. If there were 6 players for example playing at this casino at $10,000 a hand then the overall variation to the casino would be less some would win a million dollars and some would lose a million dollars.Overall the game would probably play close to the house edge of .2% ( and in fact does ).

If you have 6 players playing at an average bet of $20 per hand on C21 ( which is more realistic ) and 1 player playing at $10,000 a hand then you would be silly not to expect significant variances and your whole outcome of that game only relies on the play of 1 player.

The pirate has already said that he had losing sessions of i think $300k, it is just unlucky for hamptons that it wasnt his first $300k.

As for royalties wouldnt it be fair to assume that all casinos no matter which software brand they use pay some royalty of some description to someone. I dont really think this issue needs to be addressed by michael and i dont see the relevance to this situation anyway. the software supplier cannot profit from a casino and a player having a dispute and they cannot profit by a casino not paying a player.

Michael is in charge of looking after the software at RTG , making sure it plays a fair game ( and it does ) , he and his team develop fast and fair software and that is what he cares about. It is not up to him to answer questions about royalties IMHO.

 

[cipher]

Well said michael. As an operator of an RTG casino i can vouch for this. To put in into context if the limit on the game was $200 per hand is it possible a person with a good run could win 1/50th of a million ie $20,000 - the answer has to be yes it is possible. If there were 6 players for example playing at this casino at $10,000 a hand then the overall variation to the casino would be less some would win a million dollars and some would lose a million dollars.Overall the game would probably play close to the house edge of .2% ( and in fact does ).

If you have 6 players playing at an average bet of $20 per hand on C21 ( which is more realistic ) and 1 player playing at $10,000 a hand then you would be silly not to expect significant variances and your whole outcome of that game only relies on the play of 1 player.

The pirate has already said that he had losing sessions of i think $300k, it is just unlucky for hamptons that it wasnt his first $300k.

As for royalties wouldnt it be fair to assume that all casinos no matter which software brand they use pay some royalty of some description to someone. I dont really think this issue needs to be addressed by michael and i dont see the relevance to this situation anyway. the software supplier cannot profit from a casino and a player having a dispute and they cannot profit by a casino not paying a player.

Michael is in charge of looking after the software at RTG , making sure it plays a fair game ( and it does ) , he and his team develop fast and fair software and that is what he cares about. It is not up to him to answer questions about royalties IMHO.

First off Dekel, Which is it? Are you an "Operator" of an RTG casino and if so would you care to advise the members of this Forum as to which RTG casino you operate. or, Are you "just another gambler" as you suggest in your user profile. You seem to have a fair bit of knowledge as to the inner workings of RTG what with you being on a first name basis with Michael (M. McMain) and all.

Cipher

 

[cipher]

First off Dekel, Which is it? Are you an "Operator" of an RTG casino and if so would you care to advise the members of this Forum as to which RTG casino you operate. or, Are you "just another gambler" as you suggest in your user profile. You seem to have a fair bit of knowledge as to the inner workings of RTG what with you being on a first name basis with Michael (M. McMain) and all.

Cipher

For the record I'll note that "HAMPTON CASINO" is currently viewing this thread. Would that be you Dekel?

 

[cipher]

For the record I'll note that "HAMPTON CASINO" is currently viewing this thread. Would that be you Dekel?

My apologies to DEKEL in prematurely associating him with HAMPTON CASINO.

However let me extend an invitation to our friends at HAMPTON CASINO to join in the discussion.

 

[portia]

Thanks for the post Dekel.

Understand what u are saying. Maybe hamptons would have been ok if they had tables full of $10,000 a hand players balancing off one another and getting into the "long run" sooner.

Many of us that still gamble were the fortunate ones that had big winning streaks early.

And at the risk of being a turn coat the royalties question seems moot. We know, they know there is no point pushing for answers that u know cannot be answered.

As u said one way or another we know the SW house is reimbursed for there services.

Betcha there is just one pr*ck in the way of resolving this mess for everyone. Maybe someone will step down at Hamptons and a new team will take the reins and move on to getting back to business of gaming.

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

Funny shit.

You might not be dodging a BOT question but you sure as hell are dodging the ROYALTY question. Not exactly very courteous when you said you would be coming in here to answer questions - and especially when you were actually welcomed in here.

So I will simply make the assumption that RTG is essentially Montana, and that either/or does indeed collect royalties, and thus could be held partly responsible for this fiasco.

Please correct me if I'm wrong - with facts to back it up.

Spearmaster the guy is a US citizen working for an online casino software company. How about cutting him some slack. I explained to you the way the royalties work. Montana is their layer of protection and you aren't going to hear him admit it.

Would you?

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

The issue here is a less than bright casino operator and the affirmation that lukewarm IQ's dominate the offshore gambling business. Other than confirming the game's fairness, RTG's liability is nil.

I'm sure RTG is less than thrilled with the operator/licensee but what are they supposed to do? Maybe we should pray that God stirikes down all stupid people running offshore gambling sites. Then we'd have no place to play but at least RTG would be out of business.

Never before have so many stupid, uneductated and ignorant "entrepreneurs" fared so well.

 

[aceinhole21]

Hampton Casino got awful quiet all of a sudden. Where are you now? The facts slowly unfold that you are lying scum. The game was found to be fair by RTG themselves, other casinos found no evidence of unfair play and paid the player, you lied about gauging Pirate's mouse movements, you still won't produce Pirate's logs or evidence that he used a bot, you even admitted trying to bait the player as you learned on law and order, the list goes on...

I think RTG should demand Hampton pay the player (or come to some sort of settlement, if I were Pirate I'd accept $500k at this point and close this once and for all) or revoke their license. I understand RTG does not get involved in these situations for obvious reasons, but cmon RTG, this is too egregious for you to sit by and not help. Perhaps Hamptons can fork up $250k and RTG can fork up the other $250k and settle this once and for all in private. Still not fair to Pirate, but at least it's something. The RTG name will be forever tarnished if this matter stays the way it is, and I think all players should band together and boycott RTG until some sort of settlement with Pirate is achieved. Of course a Hampton boycott goes without saying.

 

[cipher]

The issue here is a less than bright casino operator and the affirmation that lukewarm IQ's dominate the offshore gambling business. Other than confirming the game's fairness, RTG's liability is nil.

Perhaps things are a little different there in Amsterdam than they are here in the United States and particularly Atlanta, Georgia. But, here in the good old U.S.A. we have something called contingent liability. In this case, contingent liability works in rather well, why one might even say like a bug in a rug or so to speak. After all, it was Realtime Gaming that instituted the ban that got all of this rolling in the first place.

Quote: We are in the processing of lifting the bans associated with our fraud investigation. R. McMain, Director of Engineering Realtime Gaming

Now that "WE" clearly is speaking of R.T.G.

Now how many weeks (at the rate of $9,000.00 per week) that the player was out did RealTime Gaming drag their feet on this purported investigation?

Moreover, how is that $9,000.00 a week that the player is out going to be made up to him? Who (pray tell) is going to be CONTINGENTLY LIABLE for those SPECIFIC DAMAGES caused by the intentional loss of that income due the player over some hair-brained idea that a robot was used and the proof that there was a robot used is supported by mouse mappings that never even existed in the first place. No, LemmeSeeHere, RTG is on the line Big Time here.

 

[spearmaster]

Spearmaster the guy is a US citizen working for an online casino software company. How about cutting him some slack.

No one gets cut any slack here. No one cuts Bryan any slack when he falls a bit behind in answering Pitch A Bitch because he doesn't operate on US hours.

The man has his own voice - the least he can do is respond to a simple question - otherwise OTHER voices will simply get louder and become more widespread.

If he can state that RTG has no liability because they collect no royalties, then he indeed can state that my facts are wrong, or that Montana is not RTG, or something to that effect.

What I am trying to show is that if RTG does NOT take some action to pressure Hampton into paying, that they themselves can become a liability whether they like it or not.

Their choice - not yours nor mine. But slack they will not be given.

 

[aceinhole21]

I think you folks are getting sidetracked. the purpose here is to help Pirate. Even if RTG gets a share of a casino's profits, it doesn't mean they are liable for this, just like Bryan isn't liable if an affiliate here (that he profits from) stiffs someone (yes he will certainly try to help, but he has no obligation to shell out his own money).

When i first heard the tape of pirate "confessing," I admit I sided with the casino, but now it all unfolds that it is the casino that is the fraudster.

Someone good with google needs to make a list of wherever Hampton advertises, and inform them of this dispute. Maybe responsible portals will pull their ads. Just a thought.

 

[jyde]

Even if RTG gets a share of a casino's profits, it doesn't mean they are liable for this..

I don't think any of us has a problem with softwarevendors collecting royalties. The point was that McMain denied this and said they wouldn't profit when a big winner is tagged fraudulent. Of course they would.
What they DON'T profit from is winners simply not getting paid - they don't always know - and you could say the casino is also defrauding RTG/Montana. Approving withdrawals in the system but not paying is an old RTG casinomanager trick.

 

[cipher]

I don't think any of us has a problem with softwarevendors collecting royalties. The point was that McMain denied this and said they wouldn't profit when a big winner is tagged fraudulent. Of course they would.
What they DON'T profit from is winners simply not getting paid - they don't always know - and you could say the casino is also defrauding RTG/Montana. Approving withdrawals in the system but not paying is an old RTG casinomanager trick.

Another good post Jyde.

The way I see this is that RTG cannot afford to admit that they do receive royalties because of the Contingent Liabilities those royalties could attach RTG to.

If a person or entity (for that matter) such as Realtime Gaming provides a service of value then that person or entity should enjoy the fruits of those labors. But Realtime Gaming can't have it both ways. Have a good one.

Cipher

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

The man has his own voice - the least he can do is respond to a simple question - otherwise OTHER voices will simply get louder and become more widespread.

Spearmaster, my apologies for overating your intelligence and sensibilities. You are never going to hear them admit they take royalties.

What I told you was the truth and irrepsective of your chest pounding exuberant quest for justice, it is the casino operator and not Real time that is responsible.

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

Perhaps things are a little different there in Amsterdam than they are here in the United States and particularly Atlanta, Georgia. But, here in the good old U.S.A. we have something called contingent liability. In this case, contingent liability works in rather well, why one might even say like a bug in a rug or so to speak. After all, it was Realtime Gaming that instituted the ban that got all of this rolling in the first place.

Quote: We are in the processing of lifting the bans associated with our fraud investigation. R. McMain, Director of Engineering Realtime Gaming

Now that "WE" clearly is speaking of R.T.G.

Now how many weeks (at the rate of $9,000.00 per week) that the player was out did RealTime Gaming drag their feet on this purported investigation?

Moreover, how is that $9,000.00 a week that the player is out going to be made up to him? Who (pray tell) is going to be CONTINGENTLY LIABLE for those SPECIFIC DAMAGES caused by the intentional loss of that income due the player over some hair-brained idea that a robot was used and the proof that there was a robot used is supported by mouse mappings that never even existed in the first place. No, LemmeSeeHere, RTG is on the line Big Time here.

Thanks for the civics lesson. I missed the class that made you judge, jury and executioner. Pirate will never be accused of out thinking anyone, so maybe he should hire a lawyer. It would make you proud cipher; it is afterall the American Way.

Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.

You boys can play Internet Gaming Cop all you want, but it will never change the fact that the guys that run Hampton whould be hard pressed to find a job digging a ditch if the Internet Gambling biz hadn't come along and make them all rich.

 

[cipher]

Thanks for the civics lesson. I missed the class that made you judge, jury and executioner. Pirate will never be accused of out thinking anyone, so maybe he should hire a lawyer. It would make you proud cipher; it is afterall the American Way.

Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.

You boys can play Internet Gaming Cop all you want, but it will never change the fact that the guys that run Hampton whould be hard pressed to find a job digging a ditch if the Internet Gambling biz hadn't come along and make them all rich.

Good morning LemmeSeeHere. I'm glad to find you all bright eyed and bushy tailed this morning.

But I'm having a difficult time in understanding just how it is that you know so much about the American justice system, with you being from Amsterdam and all. And the "It would make you proud cipher" statement just wizzzzzed right over the top of my head.

But the real zinger is how you make the correlation between RealTime Gaming and morals? Lastly, I think I'll let the boys from Hampton dig their own way out of that ditch. Have a good one.

 

[spearmaster]

What I told you was the truth and irrepsective of your chest pounding exuberant quest for justice, it is the casino operator and not Real time that is responsible.

I didn't see anyone say you were not telling the truth... and I didn't see anyone say that Real Time Gaming is responsible. So kindly take a moment to reread the thread and get your facts in order.

Keep in mind that:

1. I have nothing to lose
2. I have nothing to gain
3. I support casinos when they are being defrauded
4. I support players when they are being defrauded

In this particular instance, the casino is clearly out of line - and this has been made perfectly clear.

However, that does NOT mean that Real Time Gaming is not a party to this issue. The fact that Real Time Gaming does profit from revenues of each individual casino operator unfortunately makes them an interested party.

What I have provided is factual information which can be said to have some bearing on this case. The lack of response to the queries raised is disturbing to say the least.

And a final word about chest pounding - if I wanted to chest pound I would have done a hell of a lot more than what you see in here. So if this "chest pounding" causes or influences a proper outcome, then so be it.

At least people know who I am and where to find me.

 

[jyde]

Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.

Bulls.... I'm sure the contracts protects RTG in every aspect, but there's no doubt in anyones mind, including RTG's, that the softwarevendor has a responsibilty. Some of these casinos are sold as more or less turnkeysolutions and every part of the business from software to paymentprocessing and hosting are somehow controlled by RTG. RTG don't just make make money on selling the software and collecting royalties. RTG-staff (yeah yeah - probably in Panama, Costa Rica or whereever) do casinosupport and paymentprocessing. As far as I know they're also involved in marketing casinos.

Early 2002 RTG finally realized they couldn't just sit and wait for the problems and complaints to go away (there were to many). Staw posted at WOL and they created players.realtimegaming.com, hired Eddy Kleid AND some players were actually paid with RTG money (check sent from Panama btw.). RTG topmanagement went public and acknowledged their responsibilty. Ever since then, RTG has been talking (and just talking) about how serious they take these complaints and how they plan to educate licensees to prevent these "situations". I haven't really heard them say they don't feel responsible anymore?

Comparing RTG's role with Microsoft or Intel is a joke. RTG approved Hampton as licensee (that was after they started "educating" their clients), RTG profits from the games, RTG invented Caribbean 21 and made it possible for the licensee to raise the limits to 10-15K (not possible anymore btw.).

No doubt Hampton committed the crime, but they used the RTG-software as a "weapon" and RTG continues to do business with Hampton as they do with all the other crooks they have among their clients. It's only natural that people see this is as yet another RTG scandal. RTG has the best software but their casinos are infamous. Is anyone REALLY surprised by the fact that the biggest scandal in onlinehistory involved RTG?

 

[cipher]

Bulls.... I'm sure the contracts protects RTG in every aspect, but there's no doubt in anyones mind, including RTG's, that the softwarevendor has a responsibilty. Some of these casinos are sold as more or less turnkeysolutions and every part of the business from software to paymentprocessing and hosting are somehow controlled by RTG. RTG don't just make make money on selling the software and collecting royalties. RTG-staff (yeah yeah - probably in Panama, Costa Rica or whereever) do casinosupport and paymentprocessing. As far as I know they're also involved in marketing casinos.

Early 2002 RTG finally realized they couldn't just sit and wait for the problems and complaints to go away (there were to many). Staw posted at WOL and they created players.realtimegaming.com, hired Eddy Kleid AND some players were actually paid with RTG money (check sent from Panama btw.). RTG topmanagement went public and acknowledged their responsibilty. Ever since then, RTG has been talking (and just talking) about how serious they take these complaints and how they want to educate licensees to prevent these "situations". I haven't really heard them say they don't feel responsible anymore?

Comparing RTG's role with Microsoft or Intel is a joke. RTG approved Hampton as licensee (that was after they started "educating" their clients), RTG profits from the games, RTG invented Caribbean 21 and made it possible for the licensee to raise the limits to 10-15K (not possible anymore btw.).

No doubt Hampton committed the crime, but they used the RTG-software as a "weapon" and RTG continues to do business with Hampton as they do with all the other crooks they have among their clients. It's only natural that people see this is as yet another RTG scandal. RTG has the best software but their casinos are infamous. Is anyone REALLY surprised by the fact that the biggest scandal in onlinehistory involved RTG?

JYDE, you definitely come to this table with a wealth of knowledge. Have a good one.

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

Hampton is not a turnkey operation, they are industry veterans that should have known better.

Spearmaster you are never going to hear them admit they take royalties. You can cry out in anguish all you want. I explained to you the way it works and hearing them admit or deny it isn't going to make it more or less so.

 

[jyde]

Hampton is not a turnkey operation, they are industry veterans that should have known better.

Geesh - good thing the Pirate didn't get involved with some of the rookies then

Spearmaster you are never going to hear them admit they take royalties. You can cry out in anguish all you want. I explained to you the way it works and hearing them admit or deny it isn't going to make it more or less so..

Yeah whatever. As long as we have it in print from the wayback machine
To purchase an online casino, RTG's licensees currently pay monthly royalty and a fixed fee

Btw. LemmeSeeHere - don't you agree that RTG in public have accepted responsibility for rogue licensees?

 

[spearmaster]

You can cry out in anguish all you want. I explained to you the way it works and hearing them admit or deny it isn't going to make it more or less so..

Very funny... ha ha...

If they admit it, it will certainly make it more so. If they deny it, they can prove it. If they say nothing, everyone simply assumes that they benefit from royalties.

I don't need to cry out in anguish, or joy, or at all. I just simply point out what I see, and let others decide what they want to believe.

In the meantime, feel free to be as right as you want to be.

 

[aceinhole21]

This whole situation has been so unnecessary. It could have been a marketer's dream.

This is true. Imagine the publicity for Hamptons if they would advertise that, "a player won 1.4 million dollars and is getting paid!!" They could have become one of the very big boys. It would be my guess that if they paid Pirate and seized on the marketing aspect, the NEW Hamptons would be generating more than $5k/week in additional revenue (what it would cost them to pay Pirate).

but instead, this casino manager can't even steal a line from a scarface movie right.

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

Very funny... ha ha...

If they admit it, it will certainly make it more so. If they deny it, they can prove it. If they say nothing, everyone simply assumes that they benefit from royalties.

I don't need to cry out in anguish, or joy, or at all. I just simply point out what I see, and let others decide what they want to believe.

In the meantime, feel free to be as right as you want to be.

It is as I explained it. Do you really think a software company operating in the Amerikkas could do so and take a royalty? Montana is the middleman. Whether or not RTG controls them is another story (wink, wink, nod nod).

Hampton is a stiff because they can be. They don't owe anyone that has the power to make them pay. I see Pirate has gone into some sort of coerced hibernation. Its easy in this case to figure the right course of action for a player that may find themselves in Pirate's situation in the future. Do the exact opposite of what he has done every step of the way.

Also, paying the player in this case wouldn't be a brilliant marketing endevor as some have comically suggested. It would make Hampton honorable, but they are incapable of doing anything intelligent on purpose. That 1.4 million would go a lot further in marketing through traditional avenues.

If I were a businessman with larceny in my blood I wouldn't pay the guy either.

 

[jetset]

"Comparing RTG's role with Microsoft or Intel is a joke. RTG approved Hampton as licensee (that was after they started "educating" their clients), RTG profits from the games, RTG invented Caribbean 21 and made it possible for the licensee to raise the limits to 10-15K (not possible anymore btw.)."

Well said, Jyde. Lemmeseehere's anonymous interference running is based on that outdated proposition that software providers in this industry can simply deny any responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

The royalties issue is germaine to this matter, and Spear's requests for an answer are neither chest beating, anguished...or unjustified imo. If this halt in Pirate's payments persists, it will all come out in the wash anyway...it is just a question of time.

Regarding Hampton's absence from this discussion, perhaps Mr. Lewin is too busy searching old Law and Order programs for a defence to come back here and explain the holes that have been blasted in his earlier posts.

 

[The Dude]

Hi LemmeSeeHere, and welcome to the forum.

You mentioned the following:

Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.

This analogy has been implied by a number of affiliates that promote RTG sites whenever an RTG casino either fails, or joins the darkside. In my opinion, this dosen't cut it.

RTG is not selling books over the Internet, nor is it providing us with software that your kids can paint Barney with. It is giving casino "operators" the ability to run online casinos via the Internet.

RTG has the responsibilty to protect their players when their casinos fail to provide their services. Simple as that.

There is no licensing agency for most RTG casinos, no player protection service. Nothing. Take a look around at Casinomeister and spot the RTG ads. You won't find any; this should speak volumes.

Don't get me wrong, I have a very good relationship with the execs at RTG, and speak with them on a weekly basis. But they know that I will not endorse their casinos until changes are made. And up until now, some of these changes have been made, and there are a couple that I am considering on bringing on board.

But now this...

I'm not here to wave in anyone's face on what I expect out of operators in order to be listed at Casinomeister; I just want to point out that someone needs to take a bite in the ass, slam their fist on the table and say, "Enough is enough! The buck stops here!"

So who is going to send the first check?

 

[aceinhole21]

So who is going to send the first check?

unfortunately for Pirate, probably noone. I know it is still premature, but Hamptons eventually should be listed on every portal's list of Rogue casinos, unless they come clean and pay the player or produce their "proof" that Pirate used a bot (in addition to the "confession".)

I bet Delanos is watching this carefully and I bet they will pay Pirate, not wanting to be in the mess Hampton is in now.

 

[jyde]

I bet Delanos is watching this carefully and I bet they will pay Pirate, not wanting to be in the mess Hampton is in now.

Well - if they wanna get out of the mess they better get his account opened and start paying him again ASAP (unless changed recently - Monday is PAYDAY at Delanos). Assuming he is on weekly installments they should pay him three this week - as I'm sure they didn't pay him the last couple of weeks. It was last wednesday McMain started this thread. It can't take more than a couple of minutes to reopen an account.

 

[cipher]

Well - if they wanna get out of the mess they better get his account opened and start paying him again ASAP (unless changed recently - Monday is PAYDAY at Delanos). Assuming he is on weekly installments they should pay him three this week - as I'm sure they didn't pay him the last couple of weeks. It was last wednesday McMain started this thread. It can't take more than a couple of minutes to reopen an account.

Hi Jyde. I might be able to shed a little factual light on this issue in as much as I've agreed to assist Pirate and his wife in recovering the funds that are owed to him and his wife and family.

The last payment received by Pirate from Delano's Casino was on January 20th 2004 in the amount of $5,000.00 via an electronic funds transfer through the International Bank of Miami.

I will have more to add to this issue later on in the day but as you can well imagine things are running at a furious pace in this regard. Have a good one.

Cipher

 

[RTG_MMcMain]

Quote: We are in the processing of lifting the bans associated with our fraud investigation. R. McMain, Director of Engineering Realtime Gaming

Now that "WE" clearly is speaking of R.T.G.

Since you quoted me directly (I didn't check, but I assume that is a cut and paste) let me be clear. Our technical support often helps casinos perform specific actions via the casino back-office. In this case, once we started our fraud / game evaluation investigation, we advised all casinos to join the ban on this player. Once they all decided to join the ban, we did it for them as a convenience and a technical support service.

Once we found that this player no longer deserved to be banned we again performed the reverse technical procedure to reopen the accounts. However, we only did this on the casinos that wanted the account reopened - effectively the same list that we banned. For casinos that still don't want to reopen the account we did not perform the technical service. As I stated before, we are currently working with these casinos, trying to deal with their concerns and rectify the situation.

 

[LemmeSeeHere]

So who is going to send the first check?

You think Real Time should pay Pirate $1 million+? Does he want that in cash, Western Union or Neteller? A check via fedex may take 3-5 business days. Does he want the $20 courier fee taken directly from his balance?

get real.

 

[portia]

You think Real Time should pay Pirate $1 million+? Does he want that in cash, Western Union or Neteller? A check via fedex may take 3-5 business days. Does he want the $20 courier fee taken directly from his balance?

get real.

LemmeSeeHere :

Does RTG, or Montana hold any funds of the casino as security casino defaulting on any obligations?

Do you know if any other SW brands do that? Like BossMedia, Crypto, or MGS?

If no, Do u think it may be practical for some offshore entity to hold casino funds as security of performance in Future?

Portia

 

[cipher]

"Once they all decided to join the ban, we did it for them as a convenience and a technical support service."

Might I ask, Mr. McMain, what convenience have you provided the customer, anything at all?