RealTime Gaming and Caribbean 21

LemmeSeeHere said:
The issue here is a less than bright casino operator and the affirmation that lukewarm IQ's dominate the offshore gambling business. Other than confirming the game's fairness, RTG's liability is nil.

Perhaps things are a little different there in Amsterdam than they are here in the United States and particularly Atlanta, Georgia. But, here in the good old U.S.A. we have something called contingent liability. In this case, contingent liability works in rather well, why one might even say like a bug in a rug or so to speak. After all, it was Realtime Gaming that instituted the ban that got all of this rolling in the first place.

Quote: We are in the processing of lifting the bans associated with our fraud investigation. R. McMain, Director of Engineering Realtime Gaming

Now that "WE" clearly is speaking of R.T.G.

Now how many weeks (at the rate of $9,000.00 per week) that the player was out did RealTime Gaming drag their feet on this purported investigation?

Moreover, how is that $9,000.00 a week that the player is out going to be made up to him? Who (pray tell) is going to be CONTINGENTLY LIABLE for those SPECIFIC DAMAGES caused by the intentional loss of that income due the player over some hair-brained idea that a robot was used and the proof that there was a robot used is supported by mouse mappings that never even existed in the first place. No, LemmeSeeHere, RTG is on the line Big Time here. :D
 
Spearmaster the guy is a US citizen working for an online casino software company. How about cutting him some slack.
No one gets cut any slack here. No one cuts Bryan any slack when he falls a bit behind in answering Pitch A Bitch because he doesn't operate on US hours.

The man has his own voice - the least he can do is respond to a simple question - otherwise OTHER voices will simply get louder and become more widespread.

If he can state that RTG has no liability because they collect no royalties, then he indeed can state that my facts are wrong, or that Montana is not RTG, or something to that effect.

What I am trying to show is that if RTG does NOT take some action to pressure Hampton into paying, that they themselves can become a liability whether they like it or not.

Their choice - not yours nor mine. But slack they will not be given.
 
I think you folks are getting sidetracked. the purpose here is to help Pirate. Even if RTG gets a share of a casino's profits, it doesn't mean they are liable for this, just like Bryan isn't liable if an affiliate here (that he profits from) stiffs someone (yes he will certainly try to help, but he has no obligation to shell out his own money).

When i first heard the tape of pirate "confessing," I admit I sided with the casino, but now it all unfolds that it is the casino that is the fraudster.

Someone good with google needs to make a list of wherever Hampton advertises, and inform them of this dispute. Maybe responsible portals will pull their ads. Just a thought.
 
aceinhole21 said:
Even if RTG gets a share of a casino's profits, it doesn't mean they are liable for this..
I don't think any of us has a problem with softwarevendors collecting royalties. The point was that McMain denied this and said they wouldn't profit when a big winner is tagged fraudulent. Of course they would.
What they DON'T profit from is winners simply not getting paid - they don't always know - and you could say the casino is also defrauding RTG/Montana. Approving withdrawals in the system but not paying is an old RTG casinomanager trick.
 
jyde said:
I don't think any of us has a problem with softwarevendors collecting royalties. The point was that McMain denied this and said they wouldn't profit when a big winner is tagged fraudulent. Of course they would.
What they DON'T profit from is winners simply not getting paid - they don't always know - and you could say the casino is also defrauding RTG/Montana. Approving withdrawals in the system but not paying is an old RTG casinomanager trick.

Another good post Jyde.

The way I see this is that RTG cannot afford to admit that they do receive royalties because of the Contingent Liabilities those royalties could attach RTG to.

If a person or entity (for that matter) such as Realtime Gaming provides a service of value then that person or entity should enjoy the fruits of those labors. But Realtime Gaming can't have it both ways. Have a good one.

Cipher
 
spearmaster said:
The man has his own voice - the least he can do is respond to a simple question - otherwise OTHER voices will simply get louder and become more widespread.

Spearmaster, my apologies for overating your intelligence and sensibilities. You are never going to hear them admit they take royalties.

What I told you was the truth and irrepsective of your chest pounding exuberant quest for justice, it is the casino operator and not Real time that is responsible.
 
cipher said:
Perhaps things are a little different there in Amsterdam than they are here in the United States and particularly Atlanta, Georgia. But, here in the good old U.S.A. we have something called contingent liability. In this case, contingent liability works in rather well, why one might even say like a bug in a rug or so to speak. After all, it was Realtime Gaming that instituted the ban that got all of this rolling in the first place.

Quote: We are in the processing of lifting the bans associated with our fraud investigation. R. McMain, Director of Engineering Realtime Gaming

Now that "WE" clearly is speaking of R.T.G.

Now how many weeks (at the rate of $9,000.00 per week) that the player was out did RealTime Gaming drag their feet on this purported investigation?

Moreover, how is that $9,000.00 a week that the player is out going to be made up to him? Who (pray tell) is going to be CONTINGENTLY LIABLE for those SPECIFIC DAMAGES caused by the intentional loss of that income due the player over some hair-brained idea that a robot was used and the proof that there was a robot used is supported by mouse mappings that never even existed in the first place. No, LemmeSeeHere, RTG is on the line Big Time here. :D

Thanks for the civics lesson. I missed the class that made you judge, jury and executioner. Pirate will never be accused of out thinking anyone, so maybe he should hire a lawyer. It would make you proud cipher; it is afterall the American Way.

Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.

You boys can play Internet Gaming Cop all you want, but it will never change the fact that the guys that run Hampton whould be hard pressed to find a job digging a ditch if the Internet Gambling biz hadn't come along and make them all rich.
 
LemmeSeeHere said:
Thanks for the civics lesson. I missed the class that made you judge, jury and executioner. Pirate will never be accused of out thinking anyone, so maybe he should hire a lawyer. It would make you proud cipher; it is afterall the American Way.

Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.

You boys can play Internet Gaming Cop all you want, but it will never change the fact that the guys that run Hampton whould be hard pressed to find a job digging a ditch if the Internet Gambling biz hadn't come along and make them all rich.

Good morning LemmeSeeHere. I'm glad to find you all bright eyed and bushy tailed this morning.

But I'm having a difficult time in understanding just how it is that you know so much about the American justice system, with you being from Amsterdam and all. And the "It would make you proud cipher" statement just wizzzzzed right over the top of my head.

But the real zinger is how you make the correlation between RealTime Gaming and morals? Lastly, I think I'll let the boys from Hampton dig their own way out of that ditch. Have a good one.
 
What I told you was the truth and irrepsective of your chest pounding exuberant quest for justice, it is the casino operator and not Real time that is responsible.
I didn't see anyone say you were not telling the truth... and I didn't see anyone say that Real Time Gaming is responsible. So kindly take a moment to reread the thread and get your facts in order.

Keep in mind that:

1. I have nothing to lose
2. I have nothing to gain
3. I support casinos when they are being defrauded
4. I support players when they are being defrauded

In this particular instance, the casino is clearly out of line - and this has been made perfectly clear.

However, that does NOT mean that Real Time Gaming is not a party to this issue. The fact that Real Time Gaming does profit from revenues of each individual casino operator unfortunately makes them an interested party.

What I have provided is factual information which can be said to have some bearing on this case. The lack of response to the queries raised is disturbing to say the least.

And a final word about chest pounding - if I wanted to chest pound I would have done a hell of a lot more than what you see in here. So if this "chest pounding" causes or influences a proper outcome, then so be it.

At least people know who I am and where to find me.
 
LemmeSeeHere said:
Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.
Bulls.... I'm sure the contracts protects RTG in every aspect, but there's no doubt in anyones mind, including RTG's, that the softwarevendor has a responsibilty. Some of these casinos are sold as more or less turnkeysolutions and every part of the business from software to paymentprocessing and hosting are somehow controlled by RTG. RTG don't just make make money on selling the software and collecting royalties. RTG-staff (yeah yeah - probably in Panama, Costa Rica or whereever) do casinosupport and paymentprocessing. As far as I know they're also involved in marketing casinos.

Early 2002 RTG finally realized they couldn't just sit and wait for the problems and complaints to go away (there were to many). Staw posted at WOL and they created players.realtimegaming.com, hired Eddy Kleid AND some players were actually paid with RTG money (check sent from Panama btw.). RTG topmanagement went public and acknowledged their responsibilty. Ever since then, RTG has been talking (and just talking) about how serious they take these complaints and how they plan to educate licensees to prevent these "situations". I haven't really heard them say they don't feel responsible anymore?

Comparing RTG's role with Microsoft or Intel is a joke. RTG approved Hampton as licensee (that was after they started "educating" their clients), RTG profits from the games, RTG invented Caribbean 21 and made it possible for the licensee to raise the limits to 10-15K (not possible anymore btw.).

No doubt Hampton committed the crime, but they used the RTG-software as a "weapon" and RTG continues to do business with Hampton as they do with all the other crooks they have among their clients. It's only natural that people see this is as yet another RTG scandal. RTG has the best software but their casinos are infamous. Is anyone REALLY surprised by the fact that the biggest scandal in onlinehistory involved RTG?
 
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jyde said:
Bulls.... I'm sure the contracts protects RTG in every aspect, but there's no doubt in anyones mind, including RTG's, that the softwarevendor has a responsibilty. Some of these casinos are sold as more or less turnkeysolutions and every part of the business from software to paymentprocessing and hosting are somehow controlled by RTG. RTG don't just make make money on selling the software and collecting royalties. RTG-staff (yeah yeah - probably in Panama, Costa Rica or whereever) do casinosupport and paymentprocessing. As far as I know they're also involved in marketing casinos.

Early 2002 RTG finally realized they couldn't just sit and wait for the problems and complaints to go away (there were to many). Staw posted at WOL and they created players.realtimegaming.com, hired Eddy Kleid AND some players were actually paid with RTG money (check sent from Panama btw.). RTG topmanagement went public and acknowledged their responsibilty. Ever since then, RTG has been talking (and just talking) about how serious they take these complaints and how they want to educate licensees to prevent these "situations". I haven't really heard them say they don't feel responsible anymore?

Comparing RTG's role with Microsoft or Intel is a joke. RTG approved Hampton as licensee (that was after they started "educating" their clients), RTG profits from the games, RTG invented Caribbean 21 and made it possible for the licensee to raise the limits to 10-15K (not possible anymore btw.).

No doubt Hampton committed the crime, but they used the RTG-software as a "weapon" and RTG continues to do business with Hampton as they do with all the other crooks they have among their clients. It's only natural that people see this is as yet another RTG scandal. RTG has the best software but their casinos are infamous. Is anyone REALLY surprised by the fact that the biggest scandal in onlinehistory involved RTG?

JYDE, you definitely come to this table with a wealth of knowledge. Have a good one.
 
Hampton is not a turnkey operation, they are industry veterans that should have known better.

Spearmaster you are never going to hear them admit they take royalties. You can cry out in anguish all you want. I explained to you the way it works and hearing them admit or deny it isn't going to make it more or less so.
 
LemmeSeeHere said:
Hampton is not a turnkey operation, they are industry veterans that should have known better.
Geesh - good thing the Pirate didn't get involved with some of the rookies then




LemmeSeeHere said:
Spearmaster you are never going to hear them admit they take royalties. You can cry out in anguish all you want. I explained to you the way it works and hearing them admit or deny it isn't going to make it more or less so..
Yeah whatever. As long as we have it in print from the wayback machine
To purchase an online casino, RTG's licensees currently pay monthly royalty and a fixed fee

Btw. LemmeSeeHere - don't you agree that RTG in public have accepted responsibility for rogue licensees?
 
You can cry out in anguish all you want. I explained to you the way it works and hearing them admit or deny it isn't going to make it more or less so..
Very funny... ha ha...

If they admit it, it will certainly make it more so. If they deny it, they can prove it. If they say nothing, everyone simply assumes that they benefit from royalties.

I don't need to cry out in anguish, or joy, or at all. I just simply point out what I see, and let others decide what they want to believe.

In the meantime, feel free to be as right as you want to be.
 
casinomeister said:
This whole situation has been so unnecessary. It could have been a marketer's dream.

This is true. Imagine the publicity for Hamptons if they would advertise that, "a player won 1.4 million dollars and is getting paid!!" They could have become one of the very big boys. It would be my guess that if they paid Pirate and seized on the marketing aspect, the NEW Hamptons would be generating more than $5k/week in additional revenue (what it would cost them to pay Pirate).

but instead, this casino manager can't even steal a line from a scarface movie right.
 
spearmaster said:
Very funny... ha ha...

If they admit it, it will certainly make it more so. If they deny it, they can prove it. If they say nothing, everyone simply assumes that they benefit from royalties.

I don't need to cry out in anguish, or joy, or at all. I just simply point out what I see, and let others decide what they want to believe.

In the meantime, feel free to be as right as you want to be.

It is as I explained it. Do you really think a software company operating in the Amerikkas could do so and take a royalty? Montana is the middleman. Whether or not RTG controls them is another story (wink, wink, nod nod).

Hampton is a stiff because they can be. They don't owe anyone that has the power to make them pay. I see Pirate has gone into some sort of coerced hibernation. Its easy in this case to figure the right course of action for a player that may find themselves in Pirate's situation in the future. Do the exact opposite of what he has done every step of the way.

Also, paying the player in this case wouldn't be a brilliant marketing endevor as some have comically suggested. It would make Hampton honorable, but they are incapable of doing anything intelligent on purpose. That 1.4 million would go a lot further in marketing through traditional avenues.

If I were a businessman with larceny in my blood I wouldn't pay the guy either.
 
"Comparing RTG's role with Microsoft or Intel is a joke. RTG approved Hampton as licensee (that was after they started "educating" their clients), RTG profits from the games, RTG invented Caribbean 21 and made it possible for the licensee to raise the limits to 10-15K (not possible anymore btw.)."

Well said, Jyde. Lemmeseehere's anonymous interference running is based on that outdated proposition that software providers in this industry can simply deny any responsibility. It doesn't work that way.

The royalties issue is germaine to this matter, and Spear's requests for an answer are neither chest beating, anguished...or unjustified imo. If this halt in Pirate's payments persists, it will all come out in the wash anyway...it is just a question of time.

Regarding Hampton's absence from this discussion, perhaps Mr. Lewin is too busy searching old Law and Order programs for a defence to come back here and explain the holes that have been blasted in his earlier posts.
 
Hi LemmeSeeHere, and welcome to the forum.

You mentioned the following:

LemmeSeeHere said:
Morally, Real time is no more at fault here than Microsoft (the OS that runs the Real time software), or Intel (who made the computer chips that run the OS) or the power company for delivering electricity to the scam operators.
This analogy has been implied by a number of affiliates that promote RTG sites whenever an RTG casino either fails, or joins the darkside. In my opinion, this dosen't cut it.

RTG is not selling books over the Internet, nor is it providing us with software that your kids can paint Barney with. It is giving casino "operators" the ability to run online casinos via the Internet.

RTG has the responsibilty to protect their players when their casinos fail to provide their services. Simple as that.

There is no licensing agency for most RTG casinos, no player protection service. Nothing. Take a look around at Casinomeister and spot the RTG ads. You won't find any; this should speak volumes.

Don't get me wrong, I have a very good relationship with the execs at RTG, and speak with them on a weekly basis. But they know that I will not endorse their casinos until changes are made. And up until now, some of these changes have been made, and there are a couple that I am considering on bringing on board.

But now this...

I'm not here to wave in anyone's face on what I expect out of operators in order to be listed at Casinomeister; I just want to point out that someone needs to take a bite in the ass, slam their fist on the table and say, "Enough is enough! The buck stops here!"

So who is going to send the first check?
 
casinomeister said:
So who is going to send the first check?

unfortunately for Pirate, probably noone. I know it is still premature, but Hamptons eventually should be listed on every portal's list of Rogue casinos, unless they come clean and pay the player or produce their "proof" that Pirate used a bot (in addition to the "confession".)

I bet Delanos is watching this carefully and I bet they will pay Pirate, not wanting to be in the mess Hampton is in now.
 
aceinhole21 said:
I bet Delanos is watching this carefully and I bet they will pay Pirate, not wanting to be in the mess Hampton is in now.
Well - if they wanna get out of the mess they better get his account opened and start paying him again ASAP (unless changed recently - Monday is PAYDAY at Delanos). Assuming he is on weekly installments they should pay him three this week - as I'm sure they didn't pay him the last couple of weeks. It was last wednesday McMain started this thread. It can't take more than a couple of minutes to reopen an account.
 
jyde said:
Well - if they wanna get out of the mess they better get his account opened and start paying him again ASAP (unless changed recently - Monday is PAYDAY at Delanos). Assuming he is on weekly installments they should pay him three this week - as I'm sure they didn't pay him the last couple of weeks. It was last wednesday McMain started this thread. It can't take more than a couple of minutes to reopen an account.

Hi Jyde. I might be able to shed a little factual light on this issue in as much as I've agreed to assist Pirate and his wife in recovering the funds that are owed to him and his wife and family.

The last payment received by Pirate from Delano's Casino was on January 20th 2004 in the amount of $5,000.00 via an electronic funds transfer through the International Bank of Miami.

I will have more to add to this issue later on in the day but as you can well imagine things are running at a furious pace in this regard. Have a good one.

Cipher
 
cipher said:
Quote: We are in the processing of lifting the bans associated with our fraud investigation. R. McMain, Director of Engineering Realtime Gaming

Now that "WE" clearly is speaking of R.T.G.

Since you quoted me directly (I didn't check, but I assume that is a cut and paste) let me be clear. Our technical support often helps casinos perform specific actions via the casino back-office. In this case, once we started our fraud / game evaluation investigation, we advised all casinos to join the ban on this player. Once they all decided to join the ban, we did it for them as a convenience and a technical support service.

Once we found that this player no longer deserved to be banned we again performed the reverse technical procedure to reopen the accounts. However, we only did this on the casinos that wanted the account reopened - effectively the same list that we banned. For casinos that still don't want to reopen the account we did not perform the technical service. As I stated before, we are currently working with these casinos, trying to deal with their concerns and rectify the situation.
 
casinomeister said:
So who is going to send the first check?

You think Real Time should pay Pirate $1 million+? Does he want that in cash, Western Union or Neteller? A check via fedex may take 3-5 business days. Does he want the $20 courier fee taken directly from his balance?

get real.
 
LemmeSeeHere said:
You think Real Time should pay Pirate $1 million+? Does he want that in cash, Western Union or Neteller? A check via fedex may take 3-5 business days. Does he want the $20 courier fee taken directly from his balance?

get real.

LemmeSeeHere :

Does RTG, or Montana hold any funds of the casino as security casino defaulting on any obligations?

Do you know if any other SW brands do that? Like BossMedia, Crypto, or MGS?

If no, Do u think it may be practical for some offshore entity to hold casino funds as security of performance in Future?

Portia
 

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