President Trump

[Harry_BKK]

Ummmm... Hillary and the Main Stream Media's face plant on election day ring a bell?
Polls do not reflect American opinion accurately. A simple Google search would have shown you that.
Harry. Seriously. I can't think of one rational reason (aside from an obviously distorted and condescending view of Americans) why you insist on pounding out contradictions to statements made by Americans about America. Where is the logic in that?

Are you trying to say that Americans are ALWAYS right with their statements about America and the rest of the world is always wrong? Is there anything wrong in contradicting statements and having a debate? Or do I have to accept whatever Americans say?

Funny that polls are always correct when they favor the Mr. T administration and are discarded as not accurate when it is the opposite.

And the election polls were more accurate than you think if you care to analyze the numbers properly..

 

[slotplayer]

I am asking myself whether you are deliberately overlooking facts or are you really that uninformed?

1. Liberals - it amazes me that you always find a reason to blame liberals for everything you can think off. Do you really think that republicans are innocent angels?

I blame Liberals because of 8 years of Obama taking the country to the far left.

2. Chain Migration - this is part of your legal immigration policy, has nothing to do with illegals
3. Mass Chain Migration - average wait to bring just one relative to the US is over 10 years! Can hardly be mass migration

The immigration policy has been bad for 3 decades, its time to make it merit based like other countries.


4. Porous Border - you have one of the best secured borders in the world if not the best, half of which are natural barriers. His wall certainly won't make a difference. The drug cartels are laughing their heads off. Instead he could do something to reduce the demand for drugs in the US, the money would be certainly better spent.

5. US immigration - the US has seen legal and illegal immigration ever since 1924. The average numbers have not changed dramatically in nearly a century.


6. Americans won't do those jobs - those jobs have been done by illegals for decades, the current generation doesn't even know how to do them and certainly does not want to do them. Go ask a farmer what happens when he employs Americans to pick his vegetables.

Like I said, don't challenge the American peoples resolve. If there are no workers to pick the produce, Americans will adapt.


Obama state of the Union


7. Restoring the middle class - that will never happen, no matter what, as long as Republicans give 80% of a tax cut to corporations and the top 1% of your population

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8. Sanctuary cities - came along in the 80's only, last I checked you had a republican president at the time. Illegal immigration started way before that.

Sanctuary cities -Google California SB 54

9. Your comment in another post: "Trump's policy isn't anti-immigration, it is anti-illegal immigration" - he is against any immigrant that is not of white color, preferably from developed countries. Only that those people are to a vast majority not interested to immigrate to the US. On top he wants to stop the visa lottery and chain migration, both part of your legal immigration policy.

The race card again. Is there something wrong with bringing in white immigrants? Preferably skilled whites or should it just be non-whites?

What are the top three countries in the waiting list?

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I don't have time for the rest.

Extra Points:

1. Do you see Trump's plan?
1.1. Put people in charge of agencies / departments that either have no clue about the matter or have been fighting against those agencies in the past:
a.) EPA - Scott Pruit, sued the EPA repeatedly in the past.
- One example - according to verified records, within hours of meeting the CEO of Pebble he withdrew an Obama-era plan to protect the Bristol Bay and allowed Pebble to file a application to build a copper mine. Plenty of other examples available
- Scientist are not allowed to use the words "Climate change"
b.) HUD - Ben Carson - a doctor in charge of housing, on top handing openly work to his son's company
c.) Education - Betsy DeVos - her senate hearing was hilarious, showing how unqualified she is
d.) CPB - Mick Mulvaney - he fought lock, stock and barrel against the agency and is now in charge
...list by far not complete, more examples available

1.2. Tax Bill and Trump Lies
a. Trump quote: "This tax bill is not good for me. And I have lots of rich friends who are not happy, but that is OK, believe me!
- in his speech on New Year's eve in front of his millionaire and billionaire friends he said (there is a record of that): "You all got a whole lot richer"
- pass-through businesses: exactly what Mr. T is operating in the dozens, instead of closing the loopholes he made them wider, benefiting him in the millions
- "death tax" eliminated: saving Mr. T's children probably billions of $.
- list by far not complete
b. Trump quote: "This will greatly benefit the middle class"
- Paul Ryan retweeting a teacher getting $1.50 more per week. Wow, that sounds like a great benefit!
c. Treasury will suffer badly because tax revenues will decrease
- watch the next 1 - 2 years when the first cuts will be made to social security programs

1.3. Mr.T daily lies and exaggerations
- Mr. T. is just purely lying day-in, day-out
- Last most prominent:
--> biggest tax cut in history - it is clearly not
--> My SOTU TV Audience was the largest ever --> it was by far not! That shows either stupidity to do a simple Google search or he really knows that his supporters will believe him
--> Nunes Memo totally vindicates me --> there is not a single word in the memo that refers to that

1.4. Mr. T's attacks on your institutions and the free press
- no need to give you examples but FBI, DOJ, all press that is not reporting favorable of Mr. T and others are constantly being attacked and denunciated, only Fox News is good.
- plus see point 1.1.

1.5. Mr. T wants new nuclear weapons with lower yield that he could deploy easier
- do we need another arms race?
- currently, we have enough nuclear warheads to erase multiple times all life on this planet and he wants new ones and more of them???

1.6. Mr. T attacking verbally and breaking ties with your closest allies including NATO countries, Australia etc.
- but welcomes and lauds "wannabee" dictators such as Erdogan, Putin, Duterte, etc.
- we take names of anyone who votes against us (Trump and Haley)
- more examples are available

1.7. M. T is best at everything
- anything what was done by previous administrations, especially Obama, is marked by Mr. T as the worst, disastrous, very bad and other expletives
- anything he does is the best, tremendous, very big, huge and other exaggerations
- Can you really believe in such a person who thinks like that???

1.8. Mr. T blaming anyone but himself
- for everything negative he finds someone to blame, and if he can't find one it is Obama / Hillary / emails / server / etc
- I am willing to take bets on who he will blame when the stock market will do the expected downward correction of 10 - 15% ---> my bet is Obama or Yellen.

1.9. Mr. T claiming he has the best people
- numerous times he touted that he has only the best people around him
- the soon they don't benefit him anymore he calls them liars, low-level volunteers, coffee boys etc.
- does it not raise suspicions for you?

2.0. Mr. T shows no respect
- belittles everyone on Twitter that he has a grudge on, these are partially people who have spent their lives serving your public
- brings up his inauguration crowd and blasts the press in front of a wall with stars honoring intelligence officers who died in service (his grief was more important)
- has a Andrew Jackson painting as background when honoring Navajo Code Talkers and makes a joke about Pocahontas.
- tons of more examples available

2.1. Mr. T hot to go to Davos
- Why do you think he went to Davos this year?
- My opinion: All the previous years he was never invited to attend because nobody took him serious although he claimed to be that shining estate guru worth billions. He knew exactly that now as POTUS they could not decline his appearance.

The list could go over multiple pages, but I think you get the picture. These are my thoughts and opinions about your Mr. T based on what I read, see and hear daily from multiple sources.

 

[slotplayer]

Ever since the first Immigration Act, the US has more or less condoned / tolerated illegal immigration. It is not a new phenomena. Why have laws not been enforced? The TOOLS have been there at all times. In my opinion, because overall the US is benefiting from illegal immigrants, pure and simple.

In the past years the majority of illegal immigrants are people who entered the US on a valid visa and are overstaying it. The Trump Wall will not change that, not in the slightest. Building it is not going to stop drug cartels / illegal immigrants, not in the slightest but it will make sure Mr. T can brag about it to his supporters



Only the majority of Trump supporters want it. All polls from the first time he mentioned it during his campaign until today have consistently shown that overall more than 60% do NOT want the wall. A simple Google search would have shown you that.

The laws are on the books, its the left wing states that want to ignore them like California.

How is the wall in Yuma Arizona working out?

 

[SpinUk]

Russians are in your business America....an



Not against a wall....just the way he brought up during his Run for presidency...

And a wall is nothing to someone who is so desperate they have nothing left to lose...they will f8nd a way to get into the country....

“Whats so good about a wall anyway”

LOL
Tell that to the Eastern Germans prior to 1989.

 

[Kelly Jo]

View attachment 87570

I can dig out the numbers for 2014 - 2017 if you need more evidence! "Gesus" the stats from your agencies show that you are wrong in your statement.

Okay.

Previous years, the majority were border crossings.

How is my statement wrong? I'm talking about border immigration issues. Your chart includes overstays from countries like Afghanistan, Africa, Iran, etc. Too generalized. It's what liberals use as a talking point meme. I've seen it at least 20 times on twitter.

 

[Kelly Jo]

Are you trying to say that Americans are ALWAYS right with their statements about America and the rest of the world is always wrong? Is there anything wrong in contradicting statements and having a debate? Or do I have to accept whatever Americans say?

Funny that polls are always correct when they favor the Mr. T administration and are discarded as not accurate when it is the opposite.

And the election polls were more accurate than you think if you care to analyze the numbers properly..

Soooo.... Schumer's bunless burger wasn't at all funny to you?

 

[SpinUk]

Harry - the thing is about unfettered immigration is that it creates a two tier society of rich and poor - thats great if your of the guys at the top as you can get a cheap coffee and manual labour services like housekeeping.

I am guessing that living in Thailand as a Westerner you no doubt enjoy some of these aspects, hence your support of them.

Unfortunately thats not so great for the people at the bottom who are actually doing the work and the problems for society that such a low income brings, like crime and poverty. So you counter that with a very strong police state to keep everything in order.

Great on paper but not really a pleasant society to live in.

When you further erode the stepping stone of a middle class in that economy you will eventually find the model is not sustainable as the people at the bottom cannot progress, have enough of the status quo, and all that your are left with is anarchy and violence. History has proved this time and time again.

But hey, you got to pay a cents less for your latte and got your cleaning done for a few bucks a month, so that alright then.

 

[weesie]

I come and read this thread every day..... interesting all the different views and comments.



I find it amusing that people are so bent out of shape about this NOW!

 

[lockinlove]

Of course I am all for workers to get extra money. My example is only showing what companies can do when they want to, no need for a huge tax cut, just appreciation and respect for their work force.

Why can it not be compared to another developed country? It's not like I compared the US to "Nambia".

because there are way too many factors to consider when comparing economies of any country

 

[lockinlove]

How can you compare illegal border passing to a murder? In no way did I imply that a murder should be forgotten just because the murderer has behaved for 20 years and paid taxes.

Laws are surely there for a reason, a small minority of illegals, legals and Americans decide to break them, that is part of our society, unfortunately.

Because some of those illegal crossings have led to murder.

Even if it is a small minority, it should not be accepted. And if your wife or daughter or mother was killed by a group that came into your country because your government could have done more but didnt, you would probably change your tune. Which is exactly what has happened to some americans.

If there is any country that needs a strong border, it's the USA because they have taken on the role as the world police. Doing so earns you many enemies.

Ever since the first Immigration Act, the US has more or less condoned / tolerated illegal immigration. It is not a new phenomena. Why have laws not been enforced? The TOOLS have been there at all times. In my opinion, because overall the US is benefiting from illegal immigrants, pure and simple.

In the past years the majority of illegal immigrants are people who entered the US on a valid visa and are overstaying it. The Trump Wall will not change that, not in the slightest. Building it is not going to stop drug cartels / illegal immigrants, not in the slightest but it will make sure Mr. T can brag about it to his supporters



Only the majority of Trump supporters want it. All polls from the first time he mentioned it during his campaign until today have consistently shown that overall more than 60% do NOT want the wall. A simple Google search would have shown you that.

Polls are insanely misleading. They are usually geared towards a bias group as we seen with numerous Trump vs Hillary polls.

The wall is not just a thing that is being put up and its not just that wall that will deter people. It is also a notion that America is not relaxed anymore and sends a message to illegals. No more. Between the wall and large increase of ICE and others, it will surely decrease illegal crossings.

 

[lockinlove]

The thing is, we dont even hear of 75% of the cases. Maybe it was reported 2 months ago when it happened but I dont recall seeing it.

Why should citizens have to put of with people from other countries coming here illegally and doing stuff like this?

 

[Steviedoo]

I come and read this thread every day..... interesting all the different views and comments.

View attachment 87576 View attachment 87577

I find it amusing that people are so bent out of shape about this NOW!

presentation is everything....

 

[Harry_BKK]

I blame Liberals because of 8 years of Obama taking the country to the far left.
The immigration policy has been bad for 3 decades, its time to make it merit based like other countries.
Like I said, don't challenge the American peoples resolve. If there are no workers to pick the produce, Americans will adapt.
The race card again. Is there something wrong with bringing in white immigrants? Preferably skilled whites or should it just be non-whites?

You do remember that Obama was for a good part of the 8 years a "sitting duck"? Hence, it can't be just the liberals' / Obama's fault that the US moved to the far left.

Surely a merit-based system is preferable, I did not contradict that. And your system is to a good part already merit-based. But to end chain migration of close family members will result in talented or desirable potential immigrants thinking twice whether they will make that step when they can't bring their family along.

I saw once a documentary where farmers tried to employ Americans for picking cucumbers and the like. None lasted more than a week. It's no different in Germany and in other countries. I wouldn't be so sure about the "can adapt" part.

Nothing wrong with wanting whites, but remember that the USA itself is not a "native white country"! Plus the largest part of the world population is not "white". And nowhere is any proof that white people are better people. The issue is, and I am not sure whether it is indeed true as I haven't informed myself too much on it, that you need a birth rate of minimum 2.3, IIRC, to keep a country's population at the same number. The rate in developed countries is far below that when you only count the citizens of a country. Immigration is needed in most countries just to make sure a population is not decreasing. Germany stands at 1.5, US at 1.84 (2015 numbers)

 

[Kelly Jo]

presentation is everything....

Oh? Is that so?

Did you know that Bill Clinton is a serial rapist? Like most serial rapists, he has a rape ritual. (A presentation, if you will...) He likes to segue rape by biting the woman's lip until it bleeds. Most everyone knows this.

Just like most everyone knows that Obama is a liar. Literally! ALL he does is lie.(IRS,BENGHAZI, ACA , NSA, FISA...)

I was going somewhere with this... now I'm not even sure why. I mean. Who cares? lolol!
This is exhausting! lolol You get this one. Presentation is everything!

 

[SpinUk]

I saw once a documentary where farmers tried to employ Americans for picking cucumbers and the like. None lasted more than a week. It's no different in Germany and in other countries. I wouldn't be so sure about the "can adapt" part.

The point is that the indiginous population WILL do and HAVE done these jobs, but not just for the peanuts employers have got used to paying. Same for the service industry, same for the trades like brick laying and plumbing.

Its big business that needs to “adapt” to putting their hands in their pocket and paying proper wages rather than lobbying and funding politicians/pressure groups to increase immigration quotas at the expense of everything thats valuable in a society.

And whilst they are about it, if they are so morally superior and caring by being pro-immigration, how about paying their share - or a fraction of their fair share - in taxes that go to pay hospitals/schools/welfare.

You know - those aspects that DO actually benefit the poorer folk (including their beloved immigrants) and stabilise society as a whole .

That would be a start at true corporate responsibilty, but I won’t be holding out for it anytime soon.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Harry - the thing is about unfettered immigration is that it creates a two tier society of rich and poor - thats great if your of the guys at the top as you can get a cheap coffee and manual labour services like housekeeping.

I am guessing that living in Thailand as a Westerner you no doubt enjoy some of these aspects, hence your support of them.

Unfortunately thats not so great for the people at the bottom who are actually doing the work and the problems for society that such a low income brings, like crime and poverty. So you counter that with a very strong police state to keep everything in order.

Great on paper but not really a pleasant society to live in.

When you further erode the stepping stone of a middle class in that economy you will eventually find the model is not sustainable as the people at the bottom cannot progress, have enough of the status quo, and all that your are left with is anarchy and violence. History has proved this time and time again.

But hey, you got to pay a cents less for your latte and got your cleaning done for a few bucks a month, so that alright then.

Nowhere did I mention to allow "unfettered immigration".

And I do not live in TH anymore, plus while I was there I cleaned myself my apartment as I have always done in my life. Starbucks has the same price in TH as in Germany!

I consider me lucky and blessed that I was able to live in quite a few countries throughout my life and this discussion is going on everywhere --> Immigrants "stealing" jobs, crime, etc etc. but when it comes to actually do those particular jobs it was to the vast majority always the immigrants doing them because employers couldn't find enough natives to do them.

Here's a good example: In the early nineties, a large part of cleaners / housemaids and similar in Germany were from Poland, Czech Republic etc. They were cheap and did a good job. A few years later those countries had changed dramatically and joined the EU, the cleaners were now from Ukraine, Belarus, etc. and people in Poland, the Czech Republic etc employ them as well. Today they are from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia. Do you see the pattern?

The decline of the middle class in the so-called "developed" countries has fare more complex reasons. A big factor is automation, which is one of the main reasons that well-paid manufacturing jobs have simply disappeared and with that a good chunk of "middle class" workers. And many other reasons, immigration is rather at the bottom of the list.

But thanks for having a jab at me without actually knowing me!

 

[ladyhawke]

Unfortunately thats not so great for the people at the bottom who are actually doing the work and the problems for society that such a low income brings, like crime and poverty. So you counter that with a very strong police state to keep everything in order.

Great on paper but not really a pleasant society to live in.

When you further erode the stepping stone of a middle class in that economy you will eventually find the model is not sustainable as the people at the bottom cannot progress, have enough of the status quo, and all that your are left with is anarchy and violence. History has proved this time and time again..

This!!!!!

You could be describing Australia. Although illegal immigration has been mostly stopped (and hasn't Australia been reviled for it!), the 'people at the bottom' over here are those living in regional Australia. NSW is sarcastically referred to as Newcastle, Sydney and Wollongong, where jobs are relatively plentiful, wages are high, and there is money available when ordering lattes and smashed avocados on toast.

The story is completely different in regional Australia where there are only small cities and towns: we are forgotten and disregarded by the politicians, and policies that work in the major cities, when applied to regional Australia with its widespread, sparse population, simply causes more hardship. In fact, where I live, even though it is truly a beautiful part of the world, with pristine beaches and sub-tropical climate, has one of the lowest socioeconomic status in the country. Why? Few jobs, low wages, and no hope for anything better.

And hanging on the coat tails of low income and no hope comes the crime: Ice, drunkenness, cowardly one-punch attacks, etc. Way beyond the 'larrikin behaviour' Australia is supposedly famous for.

Again, why? Unless you are one of the professional classes (doctor/dentist/physiotherapist), for us ordinary candlestick makers, there is absolutely no chance of stepping up to join the middle class as there is no middle class here. Just struggle street, with the daily grind of trying to make ends meet.

So what will we end up with?

"...have enough of the status quo, and all that your are left with is anarchy and violence." Perhaps this is not as extreme as it sounds.

Even though I despise Trump for many of his policies, I really am able to understand the rumblings of discontent which go way beyond anything heard recently, as the same rumblings are being heard over here. Ordinary people who would like to achieve more look at their own lives, but because the short sightedness of many governments, which in turn has caused many internal problems over the decades, realise there is no way up, just down.

And they really are close to having had enough.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I saw once a documentary where farmers tried to employ Americans for picking cucumbers and the like. None lasted more than a week. It's no different in Germany and in other countries. I wouldn't be so sure about the "can adapt" part.

The point is that the indiginous population WILL do and HAVE done these jobs, but not just for the peanuts employers have got used to paying. Same for the service industry, same for the trades like brick laying and plumbing.

Its big business that needs to “adapt” to putting their hands in their pocket and paying proper wages rather than lobbying and funding politicians/pressure groups to increase immigration quotas at the expense of everything thats valuable in a society.

And whilst they are about it, if they are so morally superior and caring by being pro-immigration, how about paying their share - or a fraction of their fair share - in taxes that go to pay hospitals/schools/welfare.

You know - those aspects that DO actually benefit the poorer folk (including their beloved immigrants) and stabilise society as a whole .

That would be a start at true corporate responsibilty, but I won’t be holding out for it anytime soon.

Are you prepared to pay double or triple prices for your groceries? Are you prepared to NOT have fresh veggies and fruits 24/7/365 in the supermarkets?

It is simple to blame anyone and everything but we should look at ourselves as well once in a while.

 

[SpinUk]

Nowhere did I mention to allow "unfettered immigration".

And I do not live in TH anymore, plus while I was there I cleaned myself my apartment as I have always done in my life. Starbucks has the same price in TH as in Germany!

I consider me lucky and blessed that I was able to live in quite a few countries throughout my life and this discussion is going on everywhere --> Immigrants "stealing" jobs, crime, etc etc. but when it comes to actually do those particular jobs it was to the vast majority always the immigrants doing them because employers couldn't find enough natives to do them.

Here's a good example: In the early nineties, a large part of cleaners / housemaids and similar in Germany were from Poland, Czech Republic etc. They were cheap and did a good job. A few years later those countries had changed dramatically and joined the EU, the cleaners were now from Ukraine, Belarus, etc. and people in Poland, the Czech Republic etc employ them as well. Today they are from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia. Do you see the pattern?

The decline of the middle class in the so-called "developed" countries has fare more complex reasons. A big factor is automation, which is one of the main reasons that well-paid manufacturing jobs have simply disappeared and with that a good chunk of "middle class" workers. And many other reasons, immigration is rather at the bottom of the list.

But thanks for having a jab at me without actually knowing me!

Here's a good example: In the early nineties, a large part of cleaners / housemaids and similar in Germany were from Poland, Czech Republic etc. They were cheap and did a good job. A few years later those countries had changed dramatically and joined the EU, the cleaners were now from Ukraine, Belarus, etc. and people in Poland, the Czech Republic etc employ them as well. Today they are from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia. Do you see the pattern?

I do see a pattern yes - whats your point? That once a cheap labour source begins to become upwardly mobile then there will be one to replace it. Great.

How about the social and economic cost of housing/treating/schooling these new arrivals. Do you think this is met by the income tax they pay on those wages?
Your wrong. In fact mostly - in the UK and Germany, the wages are topped up by welfare like income support and child tax credits, so the indiginous population are in fact subsidising them coming here.

How about the recent government crime report this month for London that saw a rise in 38 out of 42 measurable crime types and has seen similar rises year on year in the last decade. Thats the sort of social problems immigration causes.

And it wasn’t a pop at you it was a pop at your argument, same old tactics.....

 

[Harry_BKK]

Because some of those illegal crossings have led to murder.

Even if it is a small minority, it should not be accepted. And if your wife or daughter or mother was killed by a group that came into your country because your government could have done more but didnt, you would probably change your tune. Which is exactly what has happened to some americans.

If there is any country that needs a strong border, it's the USA because they have taken on the role as the world police. Doing so earns you many enemies.



Polls are insanely misleading. They are usually geared towards a bias group as we seen with numerous Trump vs Hillary polls.

The wall is not just a thing that is being put up and its not just that wall that will deter people. It is also a notion that America is not relaxed anymore and sends a message to illegals. No more. Between the wall and large increase of ICE and others, it will surely decrease illegal crossings.

One more time, I do not condone illegal immigration nor did I mention that it should be tolerated. As "weesie" correctly pointed out, all presidents had a similar approach.

Deportations of illegals in the Obama era were the highest, IIRC......read it somewhere quite some time ago. But he did not resort to the fear-mongering narrative Mr. T is beating into peoples' brains.

 

[SpinUk]

Are you prepared to pay double or triple prices for your groceries? Are you prepared to NOT have fresh veggies and fruits 24/7/365 in the supermarkets?

It is simple to blame anyone and everything but we should look at ourselves as well once in a while.

With respect Harry you need a reality check on the relativity cost of bringing goods to market. A 20% mark up in wages does not equate to a doubling or trebling of goods price.

And yes i would - and believe most people would - forego that for the benefits substantially cutting immigration would bring.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Here's a good example: In the early nineties, a large part of cleaners / housemaids and similar in Germany were from Poland, Czech Republic etc. They were cheap and did a good job. A few years later those countries had changed dramatically and joined the EU, the cleaners were now from Ukraine, Belarus, etc. and people in Poland, the Czech Republic etc employ them as well. Today they are from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia. Do you see the pattern?

I do see a pattern yes - whats your point? That once a cheap labour source begins to become upwardly mobile then there will be one to replace it. Great.

How about the social and economic cost of housing/treating/schooling these bew arrivals. Do you think this is met by the income tax they pay on those wages?
Your wrong. In fact mostly - in the UK and Germany, the wages are topped up by welfare like income support and child tax credits, so the indiginous population are in fact subsidising them coming here.

How about the recent government crime report this month for London that saw a rise in 38 out of 42 measurable crime types and has seen similar rises year on year in the last decade. Thats the sort of social problems immigration causes.

And it wasn’t a pop at you it was a pop at your argument, same old tactics.....

The point is that people always have and always will try to move to "areas" that "promise" a better life. And the native population in those "areas" will always try to defend themselves against the influx but as history has shown many times over, it is to no avail and that amid today's much more advanced possibilities to protect a border.

 

[Harry_BKK]

With respect Harry you need a reality check on the relativity cost of bringing goods to market. A 20% mark up in wages does not equate to a doubling or trebling of goods price.

And yes i would - and believe most people would - forego that for the benefits substantially cutting immigration would bring.

I can assure you that you would need a lot more than 20% higher wages. You will have huge difficulties finding "native" workers to pick your veggies even if you raise the pay from GBP/EUR5 to GBP/EUR6.

And wages do have a large impact on the prize of groceries since they are so work intensive.

 

[SpinUk]

The point is that people always have and always will try to move to "areas" that "promise" a better life. And the native population in those "areas" will always try to defend themselves against the influx but as history has shown many times over, it is to no avail and that amid today's much more advanced possibilities to protect a border.

If by history you are looking at the last fifteen years then yes. Unfortunately for the corporates and liberals, the tide is turning and despite the best efforts of a monopolisitic biased press and state sponsered rhetoric against the “evils” of sensible controlled immigration, the general public are starting to reject that - look at the Brexit vote and Trump’s election success.

These were democratically appointed decisions made “by the people for the people”.

What history HAS told us time and time again is that politics trumps economics every time, and despite what the Billion dollar tech companies and global multinationals would prefer, people are starting to rebel, and its spreading.

 

[geordiecolin]

If by history you are looking at the last fifteen years then yes. Unfortunately for the corporates and liberals, the tide is turning and despite the best efforts of a monopolisitic biased press and state sponsered rhetoric against the “evils” of sensible controlled immigration, the general public are starting to reject that - look at the Brexit vote and Trump’s election success.

These were democratically appointed decisions made “by the people for the people”.

What history HAS told us time and time again is that politics trumps economics every time, and despite what the Billion dollar tech companies and global multinationals would prefer, people are starting to rebel, and its spreading.

Regarding "Draining the swamp" is concerned.I think that there has to be a "deep state" in all democracies to some degree because the experience and knowledge of those in permanent positions regardless of who is in charge is the backbone of any government. You do not take over a large business and simply get rid of everyone in order to start from scratch.
There is also the pitfalls of ministers being incompetent/unsuitable in their positions for a variety of reasons who need to be checked in order to limit the damage they may cause.
However,I have no issue with a new administration targeting an institution such as the FBI if it is felt that they need a good clean out of self serving people who are not always acting in the best interests of the Country you have been voted to govern.