Potential conflict-of-interest concerns - Apathy - Thoughts on Improving CM Forum

[JHV]

It's up to members to police one another when it comes to "hey, I think you're shilling" or man, I wish there were more members like me. Feel free to recruit all your player buddies and tear apart the RNG of whatever software provider. No one is going to say no to that. In fact that's what makes this board resilient and powerful. People read and listen to what is said here. This is your forum - it's your sounding board - this is a tool for you to use.

As most of us are aware, Rusty has decided to leave CM. His stated reason for doing so struck a chord with me as I was, myself, drifting away for those same reasons.

Due to a steady increase in shill like posts, unchecked disinformation and general apathy on the subject of fair gaming I will no longer be posting on these boards as I do not want to add legitimacy to these people by responding to them directly.

As Bryan states above, it is up to us to make this forum a powerful one. A forum that strikes fear into the hearts of unethical and shady operators, and a forum that heavily rewards ethical operators with our custom.

I cannot see how anyone can disagree with Rusty's words above. When Bryan graciously allowed me back to post, I was determined to be a positive force and contribute in a positive manner - to call out unethical operators, to compliment those operators conducting themselves in an ethical manner, and contribute across a range of sub-forums in assisting new players with advice, etc.

After one day of posting, I was disillusioned and disheartened. The 'apathy' Rusty referred to was everywhere. thelawnet made a great post bringing attention to a shocking piece of malpractice by a large operator, and almost no one seemed to care all that much. Not only that, but I was baited and attacked instead by posters making posts COVERED with affiliate links of the very online casinos who were being shown to be acting unethically. I steadfastly refused to rise to their baiting, hoping against hope their attacks would be moderated like mine would instantly be. The attacks were allowed. And, disillusioned, I drifted away...with no plans to return.

Although I don't have Rusty's posting history, widespread respect or established trust yet; his departure has sparked me into giving it one final shot. What I will say will be controversial. It will make some people angry. I may get banned for it. I hope I'm not, because I feel my arguments are valid and will be beneficial to the future of this forum.

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1. Conflict-of-Interest - whether genuine or perceived, this is a serious issue. A huge number of posters here are online casino affiliates. I understand business, and respect the right of anyone to conduct business on a forum, ESPECIALLY if they are providing valuable advice to inexperienced players. However, when that conflict-of-interest reaches the point where those affiliates stay silent on blatant misconduct by their listed casinos - ALL OF US should speak out and hold them to account.

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2. Moderation - there is a severe disparity between how some posters are moderated as opposed to others. I can provide evidence of unprovoked attacks made on me which have received no attention whatsoever - whilst I have been banned for breaching forum rules for RESPONDING to those attacks. Key word there: RESPONDING.

The moderation issue has to be addressed and/or be more transparent otherwise posters like myself, who genuinely have no agenda (note the complete lack of affiliate links) will be silenced directly via being baited and responding in breach of forum rules - or simply grow disillusioned with the apparent (perhaps incorrectly perceived) 'protection' some posters receive from mods whilst others step one inch over the line and get pinned immediately.

I can provide evidence of these examples, obviously. If anyone wishes me to, I will do so. But I believe this forums' posters to be mostly intelligent enough to realise what I'm saying is valid.

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3. Apathy - it's everywhere. Rusty knew it, I know it, you know it. But what I can't understand is why?

Is it merely that we're all only interested in our specific interests and don't feel comfortable commenting on games we don't play or online casinos we haven't played at? I know that's the case with me, for sure.

But I think we shouldn't have to make a PAB for this forum to unite when one of us posts a thread outlining unethical behaviour by an online casino.

When one of us does so, in my idealistic world, the whole forum will unite in outrage and demand action - even if it's just a whole group of us demanding the listed Casino Rep merely respond!

And, in my opinion, when a listed Casino Rep goes out of their way to NOT RESPOND to allegations, we should unite and beg Bryan and Max to delist them for that failure to respond. This isn't a courtroom, they should not have the right to "plead the 5th" or pull the "no comment" nonsense! Please trust me (as someone who's lost over half a million, a large % of which was lost to shady operators) when I say that these casinos won't give you the same courtesy in your position.

We need to get behind each other and our volume united will be heard. Otherwise, the very power that this forum has been and has the potential to be is intrinsically weakened. If Casino reps are allowed to insult our intelligence (as the InterCasino rep did responding to thelawnet) or simply ignore us (as the InterCasino rep did when I requested he comment on my allegations) - and we allow them to get away with it - what's the point of having them here if they're just going to lie to our faces, claim "misunderstandings", "technical errors", "cashout complications" and other nonsense as justification for ripping off innocent players - what's the point if they are here merely for this purpose?

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I hope enough objective players who are here primarily because they're interested in fair gaming agree with me. And I brace myself for the inevitable attacks from those who are here to make money and have no interest in fair gaming.

And I thank Bryan for allowing me this opportunity to post topics I have stayed silent about due to their hugely controversial nature.

 

[Casinomeister]

...
I hope enough objective players who are here primarily because they're interested in fair gaming agree with me. And I brace myself for the inevitable attacks from those who are here to make money and have no interest in fair gaming...

And you're baiting the shills

JK

Seriously, one thing to keep in mind is that a majority of affiliates are players as well. It's hard to differentiate the two. Secondly, most affiliates don't make any money worth dealing with. Only a handful can make a living at it.

Thirdly, please don't assume silence is an act of ignoring a subject. There has been a number of times when the right person has not been contacted. Sometimes it takes my direct involvement to get something going. And I have been in and out during the past few months.

 

[Casinomeister]

Just a thought before my lunch break - what about modifying the sig rules? For instance disallowing URLs in sigs.

 

[Pinababy69]

Just a thought before my lunch break - what about modifying the sig rules? For instance disallowing URLs in sigs.

Big yes vote here Bryan...if we're voting that is.

 

[RobWin]

Just a thought before my lunch break - what about modifying the sig rules? For instance disallowing URLs in sigs.

That would most definitely knock a huge dent in the MOUNTAIN of Affiliate Cash that I am rolling in and making each month...lol

Shit, I quit my day job way back when I first became an affiliate because of all the excess cash I started making from the programs..
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[Pinababy69]

JHV, I swear to God you read my mind and posted my thoughts, probably alot better than I could have myself.

I do somewhat disagree with the part of your post re: moderation of this forum. Simmo and Webzcas are pretty busy with other stuff of late, and the task of full time moderation has pretty much fallen on Max and Bryan's shoulders. And when Bryan is off for whatever reason, the majority of the responsibility ends up being Max's. You have to remember (and I think Bryan already stated), that they don't have time to read every thread, and for sure, not every post. So they may not always be aware of each issue, or animosity between posters. The best suggestion is to use the report post function, or if it's something really pressing, even sending Max or Bryan a "short" PM can be helpful.

As to the rest of your post, and most especially the apathy part...I couldn't have said it better myself. I think I understand pretty well why Rusty left...I've been there. Him and I tossed that word (apathy) around quite a bit lately. It is very disheartening when you see shady goings on, and try to bring it to light....and are met with almost complete disinterest. You can't very well post to yourself, and if there's no feedback...where do you go from there?

Perhaps it's just a sign of the times? People have too many real life worries, and too much going on, to become overly involved in the world of online gaming. But, like you, I believe that anyone who plays online should take an interest in all aspects of the industry....educate themselves and get pissed off when they see some of the stuff that goes on.

Just in the last year alone, there have been so many issues with Progressive Jackpots at different casinos and spanning many different softwares. Jackpots just "gone", settlement payments instead of one lump sum payment, payments spread out over years, progressives won on free chips and supposedly paid out, but how do we know? That's just a short list. I just don't understand why people aren't foaming at the mouth at this kind of stuff.

I have no sympathy for shady affiliates who promote rogue casinos, absolutely none. But not all of the affiliates who frequent this site are "bad". There are some VERY good ones, who do their homework, and whose sites are much more than just banner farms. And I lay just as much blame for the existence and survival of rogue casinos, at the feet of players, as I do affiliates. People do not do their research before they play, and usually only end up here AFTER they've run into problems. How hard is it to do a Google search? And then there are the players who insist on giving their custom to the worst of the worst, even though they know full well the history of some of these places. Those are the ones who really get to me, and I have to bite my tongue and sit on my hands. But again, it comes back to the old "hey, I get paid, what do I care if Joe Blow doesn't"?

Players have all the power in the world, if they would only band together and demand fair treatment from some of these places. And refuse to play at places who don't treat every single customer like royalty.

But what's the solution? You can't beat people with a stick. If they're not interested in getting involved, what can you do?

I miss Rusty already...who will be my sidekick now in the Topgame thread(s)? We didn't always agree, but we have mutual respect for each other, and ultimately, we both wanted the same thing. Fairness for ALL players.

 

[Pinababy69]

That would most definitely knock a huge dent in the MOUNTAIN of Affiliate Cash that I am rolling in and making each month...lol

Shit, I quit my day job way back when I first became an affiliate because of all the excess cash I started making from the programs..
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Are your eyes brown by any chance Rob?

You are SO full of it...ha ha. BTW JHV, Rob is definitely one of the good guys. So why don't you two smoke the peace pipe, and start over? Rob wants the same thing that alot of us want. Safe and fair places for players to blow their money. Like Rusty, him and I aren't always on the same page, but he's always open to dialogue about anything. And he'll always give you an honest answer. You can't ask for more than that IMO.

 

[RobWin]

Are your eyes brown by any chance Rob?

You are SO full of it...ha ha. BTW JHV, Rob is definitely one of the good guys. So why don't you two smoke the peace pipe, and start over? Rob wants the same thing that alot of us want. Safe and fair places for players to blow their money. Like Rusty, him and I aren't always on the same page, but he's always open to dialogue about anything. And he'll always give you an honest answer. You can't ask for more than that IMO.

Thanks Pina, I can go for that...
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[JHV]

Thanks Pina, I can go for that...
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I honestly didn't realise I was fighting with Rob

But I'm definitely down for supporting the good guys! So I'll take a puff of that pipe.

There is just one main affiliate on here who I have referred to without naming yet and not sure it's appropriate to do so just yet - as in, not sure we're at that stage where I can call him out, so to speak...and not get smashed for it.

I'm sure he knows who he is, though. He's popular though, so I might have him pegged completely wrong. It's a complex world of alliances here I have yet to figure out, being so new to the forum, and being silly enough to offend people who probably are interested in the same things I am (fair and ethical gaming practices) by posting unnecessary anti-organised religion posts or otherwise unnecessary sarcasm etc.

I'm not a great strategist, I shoot from the hip and occasionally blow off a toe or two....

 

[Pinababy69]

I honestly didn't realise I was fighting with Rob

But I'm definitely down for supporting the good guys! So I'll take a puff of that pipe.

There is just one main affiliate on here who I have referred to without naming yet and not sure it's appropriate to do so just yet - as in, not sure we're at that stage where I can call him out, so to speak...and not get smashed for it.

I'm sure he knows who he is, though. He's popular though, so I might have him pegged completely wrong. It's a complex world of alliances here I have yet to figure out, being so new to the forum, and being silly enough to offend people who probably are interested in the same things I am (fair and ethical gaming practices) by posting unnecessary anti-organised religion posts or otherwise unnecessary sarcasm etc.

I'm not a great strategist, I shoot from the hip and occasionally blow off a toe or two....

Thanks for that JHV.

To answer your question in one word....NO.

Direct confrontation with one person isn't a good idea....not here anyway. Much better to stick to the issues and then take it from there, and see who wants to get involved and discuss it. This isn't really the type of forum where you want to start naming and shaming other members, or calling them out. If you can just keep in mind here....to not get too personal, you will be okay. Civilized debate, discussion of issues, differing opinions...that is all okay. But as soon as you make it about one person (or people), the focus is lost.

I can see this thread "could" get heated, but if we can stay focused on whatever it is you (and I or anyone) wants to accomplish, maybe we can actually get some feedback from people here. I'd love to hear from other posters/players as to why they don't take more of an interest in certain topics. And I'd also truly like to hear from some affiliates in re: the choices they make in who to promote, how they deal with player issues, if they keep up to date on player issues...that type of thing.

I hope you were asking for an opinion...seeing as I gave you mine.

I didn't think you and Rob were fighting...just that I think you got off on the wrong foot here overall. Nothing more than that.

 

[WagerWitch]

Methinks Apathy stems from the realization that the casinos in an over all tandem movement do not care how they treat the players.

They don't care about the player.

They care ONLY about the dollar figures that resonate with each deposit.

Test this theory:

Go to ANY casino - deposit 2000.00 and then play through your 2000.00. Accept the bonus of 75% with your deposit.

Then when you run out - because the machines are NOT hitting in ANY way - ask them for any type of no deposit bonus - with any requirements.

And watch them laugh at you.

Most of the time they might throw you a bone - but the majority will give you a NEXT TIME deposit bonus.

There isn't any personal - let's look at your account any more...

It's all about the deposit.

After awhile - the player starts to realize what they are worth at the online casinos... NOTHING.

And that - creates apathy.

LOL!

 

[Casinomeister]

Methinks Apathy stems from the realization that the casinos in an over all tandem movement do not care how they treat the players.

They don't care about the player.

They care ONLY about the dollar figures that resonate with each deposit.
...

If you truly feel this way, why are you promoting them?

 

[LaurieJim]

Methinks Apathy stems from the realization that the casinos in an over all tandem movement do not care how they treat the players.

They don't care about the player.

They care ONLY about the dollar figures that resonate with each deposit.

Test this theory:

Go to ANY casino - deposit 2000.00 and then play through your 2000.00. Accept the bonus of 75% with your deposit.

Then when you run out - because the machines are NOT hitting in ANY way - ask them for any type of no deposit bonus - with any requirements.

And watch them laugh at you.

Most of the time they might throw you a bone - but the majority will give you a NEXT TIME deposit bonus.

There isn't any personal - let's look at your account any more...

It's all about the deposit.

After awhile - the player starts to realize what they are worth at the online casinos... NOTHING.

And that - creates apathy.

LOL!

This is what i got out of Wager Witches post and what i strongly beleive, the casinos are not in the non profit business, they are there to make money,yes there are some casinos out there that do not give a damn, all they want is your deposit, but lets face it, its a money making business for the casinos and the affiliates, they dont do it and quit their day jobs if they are not making money or see a future in it for themselves.

Not all casinos are this way, but again, they are not there to be a friend but there to take a chance on if your deposit will out last them and who will come out ahead of the house......just my thoughts...........laurie

 

[JHV]

I would never dream of criticising anyone trying to make a living or even trying to build a fortune via online gambling or any other legal industry. I do not believe that so-called 'vice' industries such as online gambling cannot be conducted in an ethical manner.

I do not believe all online casino operators are ruthless operators who employ crafty tricks (or simple tricks if you're intelligence-challenged such as myself) to squeeze every last $ they can out of their patrons. There are clear examples of operators who behave in a consistently ethical manner, despite what must be a tantalizing temptation to take advantage of their patrons like other online casinos are and have been doing.

I see a banner for one of those online casinos flashing above this post right now: Millionaire Casino. At every point, they've been reasonable (even if I haven't - when I was too intelligence-challenged to realise what "active payline" meant and panicked that the machine had robbed me of a Feature ). Another Millionaire example: In a Slots tournament, I hit a feature with about a minute to go on the clock. In every tournament I've played, when the clock hits 0.00, all active hands, spins and features are played out. At Millionaire (and also at Microgaming - although it's slightly complicated in Microgaming rebuy tournaments where your feature can be continued if you rebuy), when the clock hits 0.00 - that's it! Tourney OVER! Unaware of this fact, and only 1000 chips behind 3rd place, I was casually working my way through the Feature rejecting bank offers of 6000 and 8000, fully expecting to be able to play out the Feature. Boy, did I feel foolish rejecting an 8000 or so bank offer with 0.02 on the clock, only to find the Feature was killed cold when the clock hit 0.00. The manager looked at my account, realised clearly I had no angle or reason for rejecting the bank offer with seconds to go, and because there were no clear Rules to clarify it, he graciously credited my account with the difference between 3rd and 4th prizemoney.

This is how ethical casinos operate, imo.

32Red is another example. I'm yet to hear a single bad word about 32Red - they're just a fantastically well-run online casino, and must have a stellar track record for there to be literally no complaints about them anywhere that I can see.

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In simple terms, I think you can break down online casinos into one of the following 3 groups:

1. Online casinos who will do the right thing, no matter if it's the most 'profitable' thing. They'll just do it because it's the right thing to do.

2. Online casinos who might *want* to do the right thing, but are tempted to push the limits a bit with stuff like intentional and unnecessarily delayed cashouts, because so many other operators do it and get away with it.

3. Online casinos who have absolutely no interest in doing the right thing. They are 100% about the almighty $ - they could not spell 'ethics', and would have no interest in attempting to do so - they'll ONLY do the right thing if doing the right thing increases their bottom line but will use every old (and new) trick in the book to deceive players, to take advantage, or intentionally mislead new players with grossly incorrect Auto-Hold suggestions (for example).

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Wouldn't it be great if we could actively support and reward those in the first bracket with our custom? Not that it wouldn't be in our best interests anyway to do so, as they are least likely to treat us unfairly - so perhaps a more appropriate reward would be to actively broadcast their quality reputation so that new players decide "Ok, I'll play there!".....

And by doing so, we give added incentive to the middle bracket who *want* to do the right thing, but are tempted by the increased profits being generated by those using unethical tricks. It could be enough to swing them to the 'Light'.

And by doing so, we hurt the bottom line of unethical operators in the bottom bracket by sending new players to the "good guys". Whilst the bottom bracket won't start behaving more ethically because it's the right thing to do, they might start behaving more ethically when it becomes the financially rewarding thing to do. Especially if we combine that positive reinforcement of the top bracket with outspoken negative reviews and criticism of the bottom bracket. Management could look at their decreasing revenues and say: "That's it! We're going for 'ethical' from here on in!"

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Maybe I'm living in a fantasy world and this is a ludicrous idea. But I think if you get enough people spreading the RIGHT kind of word-of-mouth (not the tainted kind spread by affiliates who simply don't care how the money is acquired, simply that they get a cut of it) - if we get enough people reversing their apathy and becoming activists instead....who knows? Maybe some really good stuff can happen....

 

[DiamondGeezer]

I for one am not apathetic but it's hard to know what can be done beyond a certain point.

The situation is that to a large extent we are merely pawns in a big trade battle that is going on throughout the EC and also the vested interests of Las Vegas in America who as I understand it were behind the move to restrict online gaming in the US. In Europe it is not much better as Germany, Italy and France have all worked to restrict their markets. In the UK we were happy to open them up because we have a lot of large gaming companies that wanted to expand aggressively into Europe. But then we started taxing them too much so they hopped offshore instead!

This is the potted history. We have ended up with a lot of corporations based in peculiar areas with not a great deal of accountability.

Luckily the good ones have realised the importance of trust and do business in a fair and proper manner. But when that trust breaks down it has become apparant there is not a lot players can do. The only real redress is here at CM or an official complaint to the relevant jurisdiction (don't snigger).

Lately some of the behaviour has got pretty outlandish. I'm surprised the major software companies don't wake up to how much this could damage the industry if it gets out into the public domain. The WW part payment of Megajackpots, Playtech progressive yearly payments, the opaque Will hill/Playtech deal, the mysterious story of the CC 180K VP jackpot, the black hole of Eurolinx.

Believe me I am familiar with all these events but what as a player can I actually do?

 

[JHV]

In the UK we were happy to open them up because we have a lot of large gaming companies that wanted to expand aggressively into Europe. But then we started taxing them too much so they hopped offshore instead!

This is the potted history. We have ended up with a lot of corporations based in peculiar areas with not a great deal of accountability.

Luckily the good ones have realised the importance of trust and do business in a fair and proper manner. But when that trust breaks down it has become apparant there is not a lot players can do. The only real redress is here at CM or an official complaint to the relevant jurisdiction (don't snigger).

Lately some of the behaviour has got pretty outlandish. I'm surprised the major software companies don't wake up to how much this could damage the industry if it gets out into the public domain. The WW part payment of Megajackpots, Playtech progressive yearly payments, the opaque Will hill/Playtech deal, the mysterious story of the CC 180K VP jackpot, the black hole of Eurolinx.

Believe me I am familiar with all these events but what as a player can I actually do?

To your first point, you're spot on, of course. Frankly, it stuns me (from a business perspective) why 888 / PartyGaming continue to trade publicly. I mean, if I was on either board when the UIGEA was backdoored through Congress at the 11th hour - I think I would have spent most of that night and would simply NOT have slept until I found or put together my own private equity capital to buy my company, delist it, move it offshore and continue business as usual - i.e. 5x or 10x profits.

Although I was pretty lucky in that I bought some LSE: PRTY super leveraged CFD's based on "a tip" that they were about to do just that - it made so much sense to me, I bought up really big. At one point, my entire 'investment' was worth $250 or something on paper as the SP hovered at 21.25p or something (with 21.00 my bust point). Long story short, sold a month later for 40k profit (that was a FUN month for a 2/4nl SSNL grinder )

/derail oops

But yep, there will be no solution for this in the future. You cannot censor the internet. I know online casinos running advanced marketing into China, and listening to the manager describe the tech behind it (I'm not a tech guy but I kinda understood half of it) was amazing. Basically, whatever the government can do, they *instantly* have an answer for and he claimed the software could simply ghost to a new server without break in playability if required. Amazing if true - and I had no reason to doubt him.

So online casinos will always be based in tiny tax-free type havens that want to draw employment there. The jurisdictions will never be like the NGC is now - they're too reliant on the incoming $ those large casino licensees are delivering to be objective or to even be able to exert any power over them.

So, I think the only answer IS forums like this one. Knowledge is power. But I think - and this could be a whole new topic deserving of another thread - that a watchdog is needed for the major affiliate sites also. Like, I get up on my mini-donkey here and rant about affiliate links providing conflict of interest - but I just realised that issue just pales into comparison with the incredibly large affiliate sites who just laugh as they list CM-rogued casinos in their "Best Casinos" or "Top Casinos" lists.

Bryan, perhaps a Rogue List for affiliates / affiliate sites as well? Has this idea ever been bounced around? God knows the online poker industry needs it - there are literally THAT many unethical and incompetent rakeback affiliates, it makes my blood boil at times.

I'm just brainstorming now - maybe a Seal of Approval of some kind? Like TST certified...but CM certified for affiliates - ethical affiliates would subject their operations to an independent audit of some kind, who looks around for complaints, surveys customers on their thoughts, looks for unethical practices, etc (totally spit-balling right now) - and if they pass, they get to prominently display CM-Certified Ethical Operator Seal or something?

If the program got big enough, players might ask affiliates WHY they aren't CM-certified - boy, that would be way down the line, I reckon - but could be a pretty awesome day the first time a player asks an affiliate that tough question....

~~~ / dream sequence ~~~

 

[chayton]

I'm just a player, not an affiliate - the closest I've come to promoting any casino is posting here when they do something nice that shows they appreciate my custom, or if I have information that I think would be beneficial to other members who play there or are thinking of playing there, but I don't get paid to do it.

I read all the threads about everything although to be honest I just skim the ones about Rival casinos since I'm in Canada and can't play them now anyhow - I can't even play for fun to confirm technical glitches (which I remember Rival had a TON of!) But the rest I read, and when there's an issue with a casino regarding fairness of the games or payment problems, I don't play at those casinos until the issue is resolved - if the issue isn't resolved (to MY satisfaction) I close my account. As a player, what else can I do?

 

[silcnlayc]

Believe me I am familiar with all these events but what as a player can I actually do?

And that is one of the problems...when you have to ask, what a player can do..then there is no hope in convincing you that you are in control of your money, NOT the casino...money talks...take it and play at places that appreciate your business...this will put the others on notice and if enough players, use their money to control a casinos behaviour, we just might see a difference...that is what you can do...

(Note: when the word "YOU" is used, it is meant in genreal term for all people, not just the person that asked..)

.

 

[JHV]

And that is one of the problems...when you have to ask, what a player can do..then there is no hope in convincing you that you are in control of your money, NOT the casino...money talks...take it and play at places that appreciate your business...this will put the others on notice and if enough players, use their money to control a casinos behaviour, we just might see a difference...that is what you can do...

(Note: when the word "YOU" is used, it is meant in genreal term for all people, not just the person that asked..)

.

I would also suggest (my opinion) that whilst what you're doing is wise chayton (wiser than I behave, I'm ashamed to say) - you could, if you wished, be vocal in regards to casinos to which you've heard negative reports from players you trust or believe have no reason to fabricate etc.

I know exactly what you mean though - I skim through lots of threads where I just don't feel qualified on commenting on. But I think as I build up knowledge over time, even if I haven't played at X casino (but heard negative things), down the track I can pitch in and say something like: "Weren't these the guys that did xxx? What that ever resolved to player's satisfaction? I think I probably wouldn't play there if it wasn't...."

...or something like that. As long as you're careful not to tarnish good casinos or word your questions carefully if you're unsure what the end result is, all information is GOOD information (so long as it's coming from an objective source).

Because players can build patterns of information over time - and the only way to do that is to continually talk and post and repeat / relate past tales etc....

 

[chayton]

I would also suggest (my opinion) that whilst what you're doing is wise chayton (wiser than I behave, I'm ashamed to say) - you could, if you wished, be vocal in regards to casinos to which you've heard negative reports from players you trust or believe have no reason to fabricate etc.

I know exactly what you mean though - I skim through lots of threads where I just don't feel qualified on commenting on. But I think as I build up knowledge over time, even if I haven't played at X casino (but heard negative things), down the track I can pitch in and say something like: "Weren't these the guys that did xxx? What that ever resolved to player's satisfaction? I think I probably wouldn't play there if it wasn't...."

...or something like that. As long as you're careful not to tarnish good casinos or word your questions carefully if you're unsure what the end result is, all information is GOOD information (so long as it's coming from an objective source).

Because players can build patterns of information over time - and the only way to do that is to continually talk and post and repeat / relate past tales etc....

Pina is really good at that, she has a mind like a steel trap, that girl - she remembers everything! And she can find the relevant posts too!

There have been quite a few cases since I've been a member here when a person comes into this forum, starts talking about how XX casino ripped them off, everyone jumps on the bandwagon and starts taking the casino rep to task, then the OP does a PAB and it turns out that they had multiple accounts or they were linked to a fraud ring or they didn't read the bonus terms (or they didn't understand what "on a payline" means ) and so the casino is well within their rights to close the account or not pay out or whatever they did. In a LOT of those cases (especially the frauds) the player STILL thinks the casino owes them, so it's never resolved to the player's satisfaction.

For instance every knows that iNetBet is a pretty decent (albiet tight) casino - if I came strolling in one day and complained that they stole my winnings and made up a believable story about it - if I could convince other people that my story was true, and the other people went to a bunch of other forums and told people "oh don't play at iNetBet, they're a bunch of crooks - they owe a gazillion dollars to poor chayton over at the CM forum."

But then later on it turns out that I'm really a guy named Vince (and a woman named Marilyn ) who's connected to a fraud ring in Thailand and I used a stolen credit card and I ate a puppy and my PAB gets thrown out and CM and Max call me names in front of the whole forum and throw me out on my ass....but by then the damage is done, maybe the people who went to the other forums haven't been following the whole thread, so they don't know that "poor chayton" is really the big crook who lied and tried to blackmail iNetBet by using CM as a club, and they're still badmouthing iNetBet all over the place.

Not only THAT, but then I make multiple accounts under different names and I run around and blabber away to anyone who will listen that iNetBet really DID rip off "poor chayton" and that CM is either a.) working on the case and has the casino in a choke hold and they're going to pay the gazillion dollars and then have to declare bankruptcy or b.) he's sold his soul to the devil and iNetBet sent him on a lovely holiday with the money they owe HER, and that's why he ruled in the casinos favor.

ahem...sorry I got carried away, but you know what I mean. Just because a player comes in and complains, doesn't necessarily mean they have something to complain about - people that aren't affiliates have ulterior motives too. There have also been posts made that say that a specific casino should be rogued because the person has made several deposits without cashing out or getting ahead.

When there's a PROVEN issue (like multiple players having withdrawals held or when there's a software issue or just plain Virtual-type roguishness) or when the casino has been rogued by CM then it's a different story. Then I'll definately warn people off.

BTW, if anyone from iNetBet reads this, no offence - it was the first 'legit' casino that came to my mind!

 

[silkprint]

Chayton?
You eat puppies ??
LMAO
Sorry...I couldn't help myself

 

[gloria460]

Thanks for that JHV.


I can see this thread "could" get heated, but if we can stay focused on whatever it is you (and I or anyone) wants to accomplish, maybe we can actually get some feedback from people here. I'd love to hear from other posters/players as to why they don't take more of an interest in certain topics. And I'd also truly like to hear from some affiliates in re: the choices they make in who to promote, how they deal with player issues, if they keep up to date on player issues...that type of thing.

That really hit home with me. As stated previously in another thread I read almost every post on this forum but some die so quickly that I don't get a chance to read them until someone bumps them up. I myself had read threads where people were called out or made to feel inferior because of what they believe in...sometimes foul language is used I'm assuming just to make a point.

I'm very interested in the online gaming industry but like a lot of members here I don't say much as I don't want someone jumping down my throat or using foul language directed at me bc of what I perceive to be true. I'm also reading other forums to learn about all the shenanigans that go on in the online industry.

This site has a large membership but it's mainly the same people that post over and over without many joining in...I believe if we were to be just a bit more cordial when replying to someone you would get a lot more participation. I'm sure that a huge amount read these posts and it puts them off from posting because of replies from some that are not necessary. I believe if you educate in a most positive way you will get to the masses and have more input from your members...no need to make a new person feel small just to look big...this is my perception of a lot of these post and I find a lot of them quite rude for no reason.

I also find members that jump on the band-wagon when someone is calling out a newbie or tearing them up. Only a few will actually take up for that person being put down. It's situations like these that keep participation low.

Just my buck-fifty

 

[silcnlayc]

That really hit home with me. As stated previously in another thread I read almost every post on this forum but some die so quickly that I don't get a chance to read them until someone bumps them up. I myself had read threads where people were called out or made to feel inferior because of what they believe in...sometimes foul language is used I'm assuming just to make a point.

I'm very interested in the online gaming industry but like a lot of members here I don't say much as I don't want someone jumping down my throat or using foul language directed at me bc of what I perceive to be true. I'm also reading other forums to learn about all the shenanigans that go on in the online industry.

This site has a large membership but it's mainly the same people that post over and over without many joining in...I believe if we were to be just a bit more cordial when replying to someone you would get a lot more participation. I'm sure that a huge amount read these posts and it puts them off from posting because of replies from some that are not necessary. I believe if you educate in a most positive way you will get to the masses and have more input from your members...no need to make a new person feel small just to look big...this is my perception of a lot of these post and I find a lot of them quite rude for no reason.

I also find members that jump on the band-wagon when someone is calling out a newbie or tearing them up. Only a few will actually take up for that person being put down. It's situations like these that keep participation low.

Just my buck-fifty

Very nicely put gloria460. Ditto on all you said.

.

 

[catrina m]

Inet knows you love em!!!!

Nice Post.

 

[chayton]

Chayton?
You eat puppies ??
LMAO
Sorry...I couldn't help myself

oh no, not ME - it was VINCE who ate the puppy.
(that's my story and I'm sticking to it)

Inet knows you love em!!!!

iNet should know, I show my love to them whenever I can afford it.