Potential conflict-of-interest concerns - Apathy - Thoughts on Improving CM Forum

[chayton]

That really hit home with me. As stated previously in another thread I read almost every post on this forum but some die so quickly that I don't get a chance to read them until someone bumps them up. I myself had read threads where people were called out or made to feel inferior because of what they believe in...sometimes foul language is used I'm assuming just to make a point.

I'm very interested in the online gaming industry but like a lot of members here I don't say much as I don't want someone jumping down my throat or using foul language directed at me bc of what I perceive to be true. I'm also reading other forums to learn about all the shenanigans that go on in the online industry.

This site has a large membership but it's mainly the same people that post over and over without many joining in...I believe if we were to be just a bit more cordial when replying to someone you would get a lot more participation. I'm sure that a huge amount read these posts and it puts them off from posting because of replies from some that are not necessary. I believe if you educate in a most positive way you will get to the masses and have more input from your members...no need to make a new person feel small just to look big...this is my perception of a lot of these post and I find a lot of them quite rude for no reason.

I also find members that jump on the band-wagon when someone is calling out a newbie or tearing them up. Only a few will actually take up for that person being put down. It's situations like these that keep participation low.

Just my buck-fifty

That's a good point Gloria. I remember when I first joined this forum it seemed a little "cliquey" and I was a little nervous about making my first few posts too. However, I found that if I had a concern or a question and posted or asked it politely that people responded in kind.

Also to be fair, there have been a few new members who have been shills (or really appeared to be) or who were rude right out of the gate as well.

I pretty well avoid threads where there's some kind of personal bashing going on - if I wanted a soap opera I'd watch it on tv. I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to learn things about online gambling and which casinos to trust my hard earned dosh to - and who better to learn from than people who have been playing or otherwise involved for a lot longer than me?

Some are abrasive, some are opinionated, some are nuts...just like my own dear family.

 

[gloria460]

Some are abrasive, some are opinionated, some are nuts...just like my own dear family

LMAO...we all have a few relatives and friends like that...I had to chuckle out loud on that

 

[DiamondGeezer]

JHV you make a great point about affiliates. However I can't see that list happening here as it would get too political/libellous.

Affiliates - ah yes! I'd never heard of that word until I entered the casino world .

I think this is where the corporate casino operators made a huge mistake. I mean what other industry would farm out their marketing to a bunch of kids/amateurs/entrepreneurs they have barely met and seemingly have next to no control over. I mean a lot of the websites are the worst I have ever seen in the internet. They are just so bad it is untrue. It's difficult to have a lot of faith in it when a lot of people are doing it as a hobby.

Before I get shot down for this I do use the CM links and also have used links from two posters here. But in principle it is very hard to see how the affiliate system is good for the player given that the affiliate and the casino have the same aim fundamentally.

I find it very hard to understand why big casinos don't have just a handfull of professional affiliates. Then these guys could get some proper trade associations going to deal with player disputes. Certainly the current system is a very weird business model. It doesn't serve players well and doesn't help the good casinos a great deal either.

Guys and girls it is not healthy that this is almost the only place of sanctity and accountability. We really need about five Casinomeister's! I don't think CM can deal with all the problems by himself.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Does anyone ever worry that Bryan might have had enough of all this? What if he sold the business on to the highest bidder? You couldn't blame him for it, this is the way of the world.

What if Bryan got sick? Would Vortran take over? Or Max? Maybe Spearmaster would come to our aid? Is there succession planning I wonder?

Bryan you are fit and well I hope? Please do not go skiing next year .

 

[Casinomeister]

Does anyone ever worry that Bryan might have had enough of all this? What if he sold the business on to the highest bidder? You couldn't blame him for it, this is the way of the world.

What if Bryan got sick? Would Vortran take over? Or Max? Maybe Spearmaster would come to our aid? Is there succession planning I wonder?

Bryan you are fit and well I hope? Please do not go skiing next year .

Actually - I merely give direction and provide the info for everyone here to use, but it's the members who really are empowering the site. Hell, I've been on both a summer break and spring break since May (4 weeks total) and this place didn't skip a beat.

Don't underestimate the power of a well-schooled Casinomeister member.

Am I fit? I can probably outrun and do more pushups than most guys half my age. But who knows, I may decide to retire and run my own website. Oops! That's what I'm doing already

 

[JHV]

Chayton?
You eat puppies ??
LMAO
Sorry...I couldn't help myself

I hear they taste like chicken.

The Guinness Record holder for world's smallest dog died this week - RIP poor little Scooter

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

I myself had read threads where people were called out or made to feel inferior because of what they believe in...sometimes foul language is used I'm assuming just to make a point

I've been guilty of this with my anti-religion rants and other posts. Will be my goal to avoid controversy here, except as it relates to online casino industry controversy.

Some are abrasive, some are opinionated, some are nuts...just like my own dear family

LMAO...we all have a few relatives and friends like that...I had to chuckle out loud on that

I would guess > 90% of people reading that post laughed thinking about their own family.

JHV you make a great point about affiliates. However I can't see that list happening here as it would get too political/libellous.

I think this is where the corporate casino operators made a huge mistake. I mean what other industry would farm out their marketing to a bunch of kids/amateurs/entrepreneurs they have barely met and seemingly have next to no control over. I mean a lot of the websites are the worst I have ever seen in the internet. They are just so bad it is untrue. It's difficult to have a lot of faith in it when a lot of people are doing it as a hobby.

Before I get shot down for this I do use the CM links and also have used links from two posters here. But in principle it is very hard to see how the affiliate system is good for the player given that the affiliate and the casino have the same aim fundamentally.

I find it very hard to understand why big casinos don't have just a handfull of professional affiliates. Then these guys could get some proper trade associations going to deal with player disputes. Certainly the current system is a very weird business model. It doesn't serve players well and doesn't help the good casinos a great deal either.

Guys and girls it is not healthy that this is almost the only place of sanctity and accountability. We really need about five Casinomeister's! I don't think CM can deal with all the problems by himself.

Lots of interesting points made here. I think PartyGaming started the MLM model (around 2001? - I'm not sure how online casinos/poker rooms marketed before then) and that model's success was so insane, every online gaming company who didn't hate money had taken on a similar kind of open affiliate program.

We've all seen those terrible websites you speak of. It's nauseating, especially if they're holding front page SERPs due to black hat SEO etc.

I suspect that what you find very hard to understand regarding casino attitudes to this, I find very EASY to understand due to my cynicism. I strongly suspect (actually I KNOW) the vast majority of casinos simply don't care - not only do they not care, they're pretty happy for some black hat SEO affiliate to be listed on Google front page search telling players to play at their casino. Whilst you may be right that this business model doesn't help the overall industry, it CERTAINLY helps each individual casino. It's a bit like the Vietnamese (or the Rio de Janeiro) taxi situation - with no meters (Rio taxis have meters, but lol), some taxi drivers completely screw (sometimes REALLY SCREW) every tourist they can, which hurts the overall industry. But there are ethical Vietnamese taxi drivers who charge tourists fairly, but they make a fraction of what the crooks make. After how many years of acting ethically, and seeing your colleagues make 5x what you make by screwing tourists whilst no government regulation is brought in to prevent it, would an otherwise-ethical Vietnamese taxi-driver be excused for getting disillusioned and start screwing tourists as well?

I actually believe 5 CM's wouldn't be as good as CM being 5x larger and more powerful. I can a situation where 5 "sheriffs", even if they all had good intentions, would end up in a firefight with each other.

And there are MAJOR online casino affiliates who are as bad as your amateur kid doing it for a hobby - maybe even worse, because they're trading off their brand name. Whilst it seems that Rome have got their act party together (Noah, if nothing else, writes very well and responds to every question and appears to be relatively straight-down-the-line in his responses), the fact that PN didn't pull Rome from their 2 position for "Most Trusted Online Casinos" after their former casino editor and site shareholder (not according to them - anymore, lol) tells them multiple times that Rome needs to be pulled (at least until they sort out their issues) made me furious. When I asked the guys I *thought* were my friends why the hell they didn't, their response was insulting. Basically "well, we asked Rome and they said you're a CC fraudster". These are my business partners and people I considered friends over multiple years saying this to my face. VOMIT. I asked if they even read the CM thread I linked them to as they promised they would, and they admitted they didn't. All they care about is $ - nothing else.

Whilst it would be unreasonable for me to expect CM to rogue InterCasino based on my reports of unethical conduct and another issue involving Auto-Hold unethical conduct - I would hope that if numerous reports of such conduct emerged, or if say Max played there and was treated like I was (equivalent situation kinda to PN / myself), he would pull them instantly regardless of how much revenue was being generated by their listing.

I'm sure this idea has been brought up before, but have you ever considered starting your own online casino Bryan? I would play there!

Does anyone ever worry that Bryan might have had enough of all this? What if he sold the business on to the highest bidder? You couldn't blame him for it, this is the way of the world.

What if Bryan got sick? Would Vortran take over? Or Max? Maybe Spearmaster would come to our aid? Is there succession planning I wonder?

I think 12 years of this industry is proof that Bryan is, in fact, an alien and therefore immortal - so you can rest easy there. If I'm wrong, and Vortran took over, whilst I have been cheeky to Max, I would never be cheeky to Vortran. Vortran would F me up Ninja-style! You never mess with robots - everyone knows that!

Am I fit? I can probably outrun and do more pushups than most guys half my age.

I dunno about this. I can run 20, maybe 30 metres before I have to stop as my lungs stop functioning and beg me for Benson & Hedges. And I just tested myself and I can do 6 (six) pushups. You can beat those numbers despite all that beer?

 

[chayton]

...whilst I have been cheeky to Max, I would never be cheeky to Vortran. Vortran would F me up Ninja-style!

I wouldn't be so sure that Max wouldn't F you up even worse if you keep yanking his tail.

 

[JHV]

I wouldn't be so sure that Max wouldn't F you up even worse if you keep yanking his tail.

I wasn't lol! I've smoked the peace pipe with Max. And now I even know how to Multi Quote! Woot.

[Edit: With my Horrendous issues with post lengths, Max and everyone may well live to RUE the day he taught me how to Multi-Quote - ahhah!]

 

[RobWin]

I dunno about this. I can run 20, maybe 30 metres before I have to stop as my lungs stop functioning and beg me for Benson & Hedges. And I just tested myself and I can do 6 (six) pushups. You can beat those numbers despite all that beer?

ROTFLMAO JHV...too funny..:notworthy
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[WagerWitch]

If you truly feel this way, why are you promoting them?

Oh sheesh - sorry - didn't realize you had asked me anything.... I didnt look back at this thread.

I promote casinos because I LOVE gambling.
I truly ENJOY gambling.

But I haven't liked the way the tables have been turning lately... And I have HOPES for some of the casinos to turn around.

But I'm starting to feel apathetic towards the industry.

If you all want to know the truth - I haven't made a lot of money from promoting the casinos - I'm not sure how many of us affiliates actually are making money these days.

 

[swampwitch]

Wait...I'm supposed to be making MONEY?????

 

[lots0]

Apathy.... Hmmm

I guess for someone new to the business looking from outside in might see it like that.

However,
What they don't see are all the years of posts and ethical battles that have already been fought here and elsewhere.

When a new person to the forum comes on and posts something to the effect that some well known clip joint just ripped them off and they get disappointed that they only get one or two responses... What they don't realize is that there are already hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts already made here about the same clip joint.

Most of us that have been around here for a while have already made our opinions known. Repeating ourselves over and over and over gets a little old after a while.

So just because a poster makes a comment about getting ripped off by a well know clip joint and it does not get several dozen posts from long time members, it does not mean no one cares...

 

[Antonia1953]

Despite my better judgment, I am going to post on this thread. Apathy is a serious and dangerous state of mind, usually brought on by feelings of futility in the face of injustice, fear, horror, inescapable violence and/or ones own inability to prevent all of those things. I am an authority on the emotion and have to battle it within myself every day of my life. Consequently, writing about it at this level is extremely difficult for me.

The passion for the online gambling industry is becoming hard to find and it is perfectly understandable, considering the general unethical and arrogant disposition of the casino owners. Players are the key component of any casinos success-not affiliates. Yes, most affiliates are players also, but they are dual personalities and cannot be grouped in the same box, when dealing with conflicts. The only role that an affiliate should play is to assist the player in communicating with the casino and insisting that the matter be resolved. The right and wrong of the situation is the bottom line and has no bearing on the initial problem. The resolution should and usually is revealed for all to see. An antagonistic affiliate is an immediate detourant to resolve and should be handled accordingly.

There is plenty of protection against slander of the casinos and affiliates on this forum. They have to ask for assistance at a certain level of civil obedience and within the restrictions of the forums guidelines. When they dont they provide an excuse for many unethical affiliates to nullify the players complaint by declaring it as bad form. Yes, there are many players that express their problems irrationally and sometimes fraudulently, so the guidelines are an absolute necessity. The affiliates should have restrictions and guidelines that are equally controlling.

The online gambling industry is spiraling downward and in the initial condition of decay. For some reason, its success is being measured by the amount of money that is being invested by player activity. This is an unsound and foolhardy perception. The success of any business is income less the cost of achieving that income. The cost of online gambling is absolutely crippling to society as a whole and can only be equalized through legal, taxable wins. The lack of regulation in legalized countries is both despicable and indefendable in trying to force legalization in other countries. Whether leaders in the industry want to admit it or not, the play is being manipulated and wins are highly controlled. Wins are extremely low and being paid is usually a battle or they dont get paid at all. Most online casinos are not financially secure to payout what they are selling. People participate in gambling in the hope of winning. When the anticipation of winning seems almost impossible passion is lost and apathy steps in.

The unethical behavior has to be stopped. Providing avenues of intervention and resolution is a commendable service, but accepting it as business-as-usual is establishing the unethical behavior as a complacent precedent.

The leaders of this community need to re-discover their passion and there is no time to waste. The escalating problems and crime in this industry have to be addressed and the leaders have to form a common cause. The prevailing narcissistic disposition will achieve nothing and will eventually become too costly and not worth participation. You cannot provoke passion or break new ground without facing the true problems and forming a determined and united front. Many are simply expanding into other levels of support, which is a damned good idea if they are too burned out to continue the fight. The problems are clear and the answers are clear. What is not clear to me is why there is so little unity. If the leaders cannot come together in a common front, then there is nothing to talk about...on this forum or anywhere else. Expectations are nothing but fluff and flitter without a plan to achievement. If unity is impossible, then there is no further reason to discuss change.

I have tried to initiate discussions about specific areas also, but have received little or no response. It is disappointing and achieves nothing, but indifference. Dtentes are not a condition of growth, they simply maintain what already existsbad and good.

 

[JHV]

When a new person to the forum comes on and posts something to the effect that some well known clip joint just ripped them off and they get disappointed that they only get one or two responses... What they don't realize is that there are already hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts already made here about the same clip joint.

Most of us that have been around here for a while have already made our opinions known. Repeating ourselves over and over and over gets a little old after a while.

So just because a poster makes a comment about getting ripped off by a well know clip joint and it does not get several dozen posts from long time members, it does not mean no one cares...

Whilst *that* scenario is totally understandable, and I cannot speak for Rusty (have never even PM'ed or spoken to him at any point - before or after his departure), I do not *personally* believe Rusty left over that kind of apathy - do you?

How about complaints, with evidence, regarding well-known and "respected" casinos? And those threads receiving little to no interest? If your opinions on the issue were already stated ad nauseum, those casinos should no longer hold such prominent positions on everyone's "Top Casinos" lists, I would expect.

And if the issue was a new one, and there was little to no interest, it's *that* kind of apathy I personally believe Rusty was referring to in his Goodbye post. I could be wrong - this is pure speculation on my part.

And I'm effectively new here, I realise that. And I respect your very much valid point that it will take a lot more reading, posting and experience before I'm even half-qualified to comment on these kinds of issues.

I do realise that fact - genuinely.

 

[johnsteed]

I'm printing this one out to show my students...

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Direct confrontation with one person isn't a good idea....not here anyway. Much better to stick to the issues and then take it from there, and see who wants to get involved and discuss it. This isn't really the type of forum where you want to start naming and shaming other members, or calling them out. If you can just keep in mind here....to not get too personal, you will be okay. Civilized debate, discussion of issues, differing opinions...that is all okay. But as soon as you make it about one person (or people), the focus is lost.

I can see this thread "could" get heated, but if we can stay focused on whatever it is you (and I or anyone) wants to accomplish, maybe we can actually get some feedback from people here. I'd love to hear from other posters/players as to why they don't take more of an interest in certain topics. And I'd also truly like to hear from some affiliates in re: the choices they make in who to promote, how they deal with player issues, if they keep up to date on player issues...that type of thing.

If only the world could follow this plan of conduct. Excellent post! :notworthy



Steed

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