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Playtech inquiry

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by marino, Feb 7, 2009.

    Feb 7, 2009
  1. marino

    marino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bank
    Location:
    france
    Among the services that Playtech offers to its customers casinos, appears in particular:

    "Advanced bonus system allowing easy set up of both simple and complex automated bonuses as well as automatic calculation of bonus play-through requirements"

    When a Playtech casino Europacasino - has cancelled your winings under pretext that you did not respect the "wagering requirements". Is it acceptable that Playtech refuses to communicate a statement of your account and your plays, so that you can control the assertions of the casino?
     
  2. Feb 7, 2009
  3. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Will you please stop going on and on and on about this - I'm getting fed up with it now. :mad:
    You have made just 6 posts here - all about the same thing. You also posted the same on other forums.
    I gave you some advice and tried to help you and you seem to have totally ignored it.

    Have you Pitched a Bitch yet?
    (It's painless, free and should be able to resolve your problem)

    If not, why not?
    Put up or shut up! :p
    KK
     
  4. Feb 7, 2009
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    PAB is the only way to put pressure on them, they will not care about a few random postings like this cropping up. PAB could produce a ruling. They are not in the CM Rogue pit. I believe though, this group are an "informal" rogue, through regularly seeming to shaft players, but with no concrete evidence having been put through the PAB process. They pay many players, but will screw others on rather vague & subjective grounds - these grounds nearly always being "bonus abuse".

    Further posts by the OP will fail to make headway, as we can accept that failure to provide playthrough data is not acceptable (if they have nothing to hide, there is no reason for such refusal).
    My suspicion is that you DID meet playthrough, but they have decided to pull the "F U Clause", but hide this with the pretext of not having met WR. They may believe you met WR through what they deem as "bonus abuse", and will not budge till someone with more clout starts asking questions, hence the advice to you to submit a PAB.
    You could always complain to Playtech, but they tend to either not respond, or take a very long time, measured in weeks rather than days. Playtech have more recently said this has improved.

    I am myself wary of Playtech casinos, and I consider them on a par with RTG with respect to risk of non payment of winnings. There are a few accredited Playtech casinos here, and these at least should be safer to play at. They may offer worse bonuses, but this is because they are more realistic, and they don't need to rely on F U Clauses because they have offered too-good-to-be-true bonuses to players.
    These Playtech casinos have spammed me with offers of near on 1000 worth of bonuses on my first deposits - this puts them well up into the "too good too be true" category, as does the fact they use spam to market these offers.
     
  6. Feb 7, 2009
  7. marino

    marino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bank
    Location:
    france
    About Europacasino and Playtech

    1) I am sorry to annoy you with my posts.

    2) If you do not believe that they fiddled my account:You must register/login in order to see the link.

    3) Playtech answered to my request:

    "We have contacted Europa Casino regarding your concern.
    Europa Casino has advised that your history may be made available to you upon your request.
    As you have a long standing history with them, it will take some time to gather this information."

    Europacasino's reply:

    "J'ai bien recu votre demande et vous informe que je ne peux vous faire
    parvenir l'historique des jeux."

    4) I have posted a PAB. They refused because I had used my "one free shot" (against Cotedazurcasino.)

    "I'm afraid my decision stands: I can't run keep running PABs on
    non-Accredited casinos."
    .....
    "If you'd like to inform other players of your problem with the casino
    then I strongly suggest you post on the message boards. That's what
    they are there for."

    5) I have followed your advice - in "thegamblersunderground" - and answered tour questions about my several posts.
     
  8. Feb 8, 2009
  9. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Sorry - I must have missed that bit. :oops:

    In one of your previous messages you gave me the impression you had not completed the WR...
    But you haven't really told us anything solid yet - What details do you have?
    If you have a copy of the T&C's that were in place when you took the bonus, please post them.
    Can you tell us exactly which games you played during WR, and roughly how much you wagered on each?
    Did you play any large 'double up' bets?

    With this info we might be able to find out what happened & suggest a soulution...

    KK
     
  10. Feb 8, 2009
  11. marino

    marino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bank
    Location:
    france
    about Playtech inquiry (continued)

    To answer your question, I doubtless played exclusively on videopoker, but, in the general terms of their T&C they write:
    1) The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS.

    2) We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered on the above mentioned games.

    From the first paragraph, I understand that, at the beginning, your account is the sum of your purchase - the cash - and the bonus offered (?) by the casino. As long as the cash isnt spent, you do not wager the play bonus.

    From the second paragraph, I understand that the wagering requirement applies only if you have lost your cash and resulting winings and wagered the play bonus.

    ( The same rules apply on microgaming casinos, but there, it appears clearly which part of your account belongs to you your cash and the corresponding winings and which part is made by bonus and submitted to "wagering requirements". When the cash is over, you start automatically using bonus; the cash account is fed as you satisfy WR)

    In my case - I hope my memory doesn't deceive me - my wining period was performed when using my cash. So that I am not subject to WR.

    This is the reason why I ask for my account and gaming history. I need this document to prove that the casino defrauded me. (As Vinylweatherman noticed, I wonder why it is so difficult to get it)
     
  12. Feb 9, 2009
  13. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    That's it - I remember it all now.
    You are totally not understanding how bonuses work.
    I fully explained this in my reply to your PM at GU and in your Poll thread here:- http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/online-casinos/29091-poll.html

    In case you somehow missed it, I will repeat:-

    I'm sorry, but I think the problem is you don't understand how 99% of casino bonuses work;

    Once a bonus is added to your account (whether you asked for it or not) you are 100% committed to completing the WR in accordance with all their terms & restrictions before you can withdraw your money.
    This is the only way the casinos can stop players taking a bonus, placing only a few bets, or low-risk bets and then walking away with THEIR money (the bonus).

    Now the way they word the condition about using your money first can be a little bit confusing, but it's just to convey that you can't take say a 100% bonus, play until you have lost half your bankroll, and then just withdraw all your deposit. If you did that you would be getting a totally risk free chance to win from the casino, but the casino would have no chance to win from you. Not fair on them, is it?

    Regardless of whether you 'touch' the bonus money or not, you are still committed to completing the WR. This is 100% fair in my honest opinion.

    I hope I have understood your complaint correctly, if not I apologise & ask that you explain further...


    KK
     
  14. Feb 9, 2009
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm not convinced. This is what would happen to a new player, but Marino has, it seems, a long playing history with them. More and more this is looking like a case of turning a blind eye provided the player loses, but invoking the terms to avoid paying out on a win.
    This is probably advantage play, but not notably so if this was simply normal VP play, rather than any kind of strategy.

    This kind of thing is the reason I consider most Playtech casinos to be rogue, whatever their status. MGS casinos do not have the above problem, save for a couple, but these do make it clear in the terms that certain games are "restricted".

    With the state of the industry today, it is unwise to take chances with any terms mentioning "restricted" games, and even where games simply "do not count", it is best to consider these as also "restricted".
    I am sure some casinos leave these "loopholes" in place as a snare to trap those players who are looking for an advantage strategy, because the cautious player will take a cautious view and avoid ANY games that are in some way "restricted".

    The next step for Marino is to complain to whoever regulates them, and discuss this in forums so that other players can learn from this. I expect the play history would show that the bonus money was never used in this instance, and this is a possible reason for the casino to procrastinate.
     
  16. Feb 28, 2009
  17. marino

    marino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bank
    Location:
    france
    About Europacasino T&C

    Thank you for your reply. It was very clear and I appreciate. Nevertheless, I am not completely convinced:

    You write:

    "Regardless of whether you 'touch' the bonus money or not, you are still committed to completing the WR."

    That is what Europacasino would like to make believe. I don't think that this general rule applies to all casinos.

    For instance, if you read the CentreBet's T&C CentreBet is a Casinomeister Playtech accredited casino you'll find:
    "Please be aware that your casino balance is divided between your real balance and your bonus balance. Your bonus balance is only used once you have depleted your real balance. These bonus funds are not permitted to be used on the excluded games."
    Most MG casinos have similar rules: bonus funds are used once cash balance is depleted. Using the bonus balance is the triggering factor of "wagering requirements"

    As for Europacasino, I've read and read again their T&C. I didn't find any paragraph stating that the triggering factor of "WR" was wagering deposit funds.

    On the contrary, you can find:

    " The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS."

    and
    "We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered on the above mentioned games"


    As a consequence, unless I'm shown the opposite, it is written in their T&C that the triggering factor of "wagering requirements" is the wagering of play bonus, which occurs when the deposit funds are depleted.


    That's the reason why it is so important to get the game history.
     
  18. Feb 28, 2009
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It is not so much the trigger point for WR, as to whether a bet is allowed on a restricted game. Clearly, it is only when BONUS money is used as part or all of a wager on a restricted game that the clause "We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal" is triggered.
    However, this is not a Microgaming casino, nor an accredited Playtech one. It is a member of the "semi-rogue" class. They are trying to avoid payment based on a highly biased interpretation of what they have written in the terms. The SPIRIT of this clause was to cover wagers made straight after deposit consisting of the entire balance on one roughly evens outcome on one of the restricted games, followed by "normal play" to beat WR. ROGUE casinos have taken this to the extreme, by counting even a single wager AS PART OF A "NORMAL" PATTERN OF PLAY as enough to confiscate winnings, EVEN WHEN the term they have specifically forbids such wagers ONLY if bonus money is used.
    MOST casinos with restricted games though do not make the distinction, play is forbidden on restricted games regardless of whether deposit or bonus money is used. Some Microgaming casinos have again brought back these restricted game clauses, and confusingly some of these also use the "clear & simple" Microgaming bonus system.

    Play history IS important in determining whether BONUS funds were used, but it matters not to a rogue whether you are correct, they will STILL not pay once they have decided not to. The fact they don't want to release this play history makes me highy suspicious that they have something to hide, such as this NOT being the real reason for confiscating the winnings, and if you could show only deposited funds were used, they would then be faced with making payment, or providing both the correct explanation, plus damage limitation to cover the initial lie.
    Naturally, were they to lose this & be forced to pay, it will be by bank draft, delivered by horse & cart:rolleyes:
     
  20. Mar 1, 2009
  21. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I have been playing online casinos virtually daily since January 2001 (That's 8 years).
    I have joined and played at well over 140 different casinos.
    I can assure you that the vast majority run their bonuses the way I described in my previous post.

    Now you can believe that or not. You can like it or not.
    But it is a FACT.

    How long have you been playing online? How Many casinos?

    Sorry, but you're never going to get anywhere with your argument.
    Accept it & move on.... please!

    KK
     
  22. Mar 2, 2009
  23. UKDafoe

    UKDafoe Dormant account

    Location:
    US/UK
    I think merino has a point really. I agree with you KK regarding the way casinos treat bonus/cash balances, but we can't expect every new online casino player to know this.

    Imagine that this is the first casino merino has ever played, so he read's the terms and conditions carefully to understand how the bonus works. I definitely think his interpretation is correct. It is certainly a careful reading, but he is taking a literal interpretation.

    Merino, have you tried filing a dispute with Playtech regarding the seizure of your money rather than just getting your play history. Surely you can explain to them your literal interpretation and stress how you never dipped into your bonus balance so you thus didn't wager your bonus on disallowed games.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Mar 2, 2009
  25. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Yes - I totally understand that - and I understand why he got confused.
    But he has made about 6 posts on this subject, and I have explained it as clearly as possible each time. I even spent quite a while writing & sending him a PM fully explaining it.
    And yet he keeps on & on & on about it, and refuses to accept this is how bonuses work.
    That's why I am getting a little short with him.

    KK
     
  26. Mar 3, 2009
  27. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    Actually your experience is not relevant. The player should be able to read the terms and make decisions from them without having to have 8 years experience. And in any case, any casino can operate its bonuses how it chooses, they are not all the same, the "vast majority" is not ALL, as I'm sure you're well aware.

    As the player says:

    "The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS.

    We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered on the above mentioned games.

    And as it seems the player got a 25% bonus, 80% of his balance was DEPOSIT, and 20% was PLAY BONUS.

    So was the "play bonus" "wagered on the above mentioned games"?

    Most likely not given the 80/20 ratio of cash to bonus. If his balance ever fell below 20% of the starting balance, then the answer is yes, otherwise no.

    And as he says, the only way to show this would be if they provide the logs, which they certainly should do.

    You could argue that this is not what they intended, but in a business to consumer relationship it is not normal to imply terms to the benefit of the business. They happily took his money (these are reload bonuses), and would have continued to do so, despite the fact that he could never be paid. What player will play if he knows he won't be able to cash out? It makes no sense.

    BTW, I had a similar issue with Vegas Red Casino to this one, and they eventually paid me up, for similar reasons (the terms and conditions were not clear).
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Mar 4, 2009
  29. marino

    marino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bank
    Location:
    france
    Europacasino T&C and Playtech inquiry

    Thank you Thelawnet. I began to doubt about it.
    Now, the questions are:
    How to force the casino - or Playtech - to provide the records requested?
    More difficult still, how to force the casino to meet its T & C and to pay?
     
  30. Mar 4, 2009
  31. UKDafoe

    UKDafoe Dormant account

    Location:
    US/UK
    Like I said before, you need to file a dispute with Playtech:

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    If Playtech does not help, you have one last option which is the Gibraltar Regulatory Authority. You can find information about that here:

    You must register/login in order to see the link.


    Let us know your results after you've contacted them.
     
  32. Mar 4, 2009
  33. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    I thought that Gibraltar REQUIRED licensees to provide play history to players on request. Check this, and if so, you have them. If Gibraltar rule they acted wrongly in refusing to supply play history, hit them with a follow up complaint based on these terms, and your assertion you kept fully within them. The initial refusal to provide play history will prejudice the casino's case.
     
  34. Mar 5, 2009
  35. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK
    Europa are licensed in Antigua. A far cry in terms of reputability (?) from Gibraltar unfortunately for this player.
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Mar 5, 2009
  37. UKDafoe

    UKDafoe Dormant account

    Location:
    US/UK
    My mistake. Got confused and was thinking the issue was with CasinoLasVegas.

    Still worth a shot merino:

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
  38. Mar 7, 2009
  39. marino

    marino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bank
    Location:
    france
    Eoropacasino and Playtech

    Thank you.
    Does not look very efficient.
    When I tried to submit a complaint I got a message error.
    When I sent an email to the webmaster I got a "mailer Daemon":lolup:
    I'll send them a registered mail. I hope they have got a letter box:D
     

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