Player sues casino

rainmaker

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I wrote a post on my Casinomeister blog about a player who is suing Centrebet for his gambling losses . The case is pending.

I would like to know what you think in general. Can a casino in some circumstances be liable for a player's gambling losses?




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Personally, I don't think an online casino would be responsible for repaying gambling losses if nothing illegal was done on their part. Now, if the player had opted to self-exclude due to a gambling problem, and then the casino allowed them to reopen their account, then I think they should be held PARTIALLY responsible for "aiding and abetting".

Otherwise, how many other frustrated players would try to do the same thing? It all revolves around responsibility. A player has to take the responsibility each time they hit the deposit button. And yes, this has been hashed over and over again, but the player NEEDs to make sure they understand the terms and conditions for each online place they play at when they click that little "I agree to the terms and conditions" button. It's a virtual contract you are electronically signing when you choose to play at a casino.

If players can start suing online casinos because they don't want to take responsibilty, players will start seeing even more obscure, ridiculous and farfetched T&Cs, JMO. CSR will be less likely to assist the "honest" player and players will be faced with more of the "talk to the hand" attitudes.

When a person gambles online, it's not like the casino staff can get an up close and personal view of the person to see if they are mentally capable of taking on the responsibility of gambling. Also, even at B&Ms, casinos don't have financial statements for each and every player to ensure they are financially stable enough to gamble in the first place. Again, these are all just personal opinions on the matter.

The world has turned into a sue crazy place. It seems some are out to do anything they can to bring down legitimate businesses and take the easy way in life.

Just my two cents...
 
I wrote a post on my Casinomeister blog about a player who is suing Centrebet for his gambling losses . The case is pending.

I would like to know what you think in general. Can a casino in some circumstances be liable for a player's gambling losses?




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Yes I just read the blog.
Rather difficult situation, it depends a bit on those playing patterns.

Basically I'd say no, how could the casino know that he was mentally ill?
They cannot possibly screen their players on that.

But if the guy was really playing like an idiot, for example losing almost every hand of blackjack because he kept asking for a card, even if he had 19 or 20, they may have a case.

But I suppose that someone who's clever enough to get 8 million in fraudulent loans is also clever enough to know the rules of casinogames and how to play them.
 
Can a casino in some circumstances be liable for a player's gambling losses?

I Doubt it. I agree with alot of opinions about taking responsibility. The story is also based entirely on what the 'Player' has to say - No View from the Casino. Some people have problems (as in the case of the 8m loser) and Casinos should not be predatory in enticing a multi million loser to continue with crazy bonuses.

Management would have been well aware of his tendancies and if they had approached him (to query if all was well) and he brushed them off - I wouldn't blame them.

Anyways - opinions differ - but if there was a clear indicator that something was wrong, it should have been addressed.

Nate
 
Just curious, is this person's attorneys going after the institutions which allowed him/her to make the fraudulent loans too? If this person is intelligent enough to figure out how to get $8 million in fraudulent loans, then I would think that voids out any preconceived perception this person is mentally unstable.

I'm not a lawayer and definitely have no clue about international law. But it seems to me there has to be some type of prescedense set, or online casinos will be deluged with lawsuits from every disgruntled gambler on the face of the planet.
 
I believe that there are no valid reasons for why a casino should be held responsible for gambling losses. Unless it is proven technical failures, etc.

In their ruling, the Supreme Court did not take into consideration whether the player can be considered to be a "consumer " or not. Consumers have a very strong protection in Norway, so I will assume that there will be a dispute about this.

In my view, this player can not be considered as s consumer. His gambling was his livelihood and therefore he is no consumer by Norwegian law.
 
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Just curious, is this person's attorneys going after the institutions which allowed him/her to make the fraudulent loans too? If this person is intelligent enough to figure out how to get $8 million in fraudulent loans, then I would think that voids out any preconceived perception this person is mentally unstable.

I'm not a lawayer and definitely have no clue about international law. But it seems to me there has to be some type of prescedense set, or online casinos will be deluged with lawsuits from every disgruntled gambler on the face of the planet.

One person who lent out money to this man (about €3 mill), did sue the biggest bank in Norway (DnB NOR). She believed it was irresponsible of the bank to allow such large transfers to Moneybookers without anyone investigating the case. (laundering, etc. ..). She lost the case.

(By the way, she is one of the wealthiest women in Norway:) )

Yeah, he used Moneybookers :rolleyes:
 
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This man was a guest in a talk show here a couple of years ago.
His parents have had a major role in helping him raise the money.
The woman who lent out half of the money was a friend of his parents. She did so thinking she was investing in a computer project in the Czech republic.

So basically from what I remember and what I have read, the man lived in hotels mainly in the
Czech republic, and asked his parents to help him finance his project.
His parents who have huge debts because of their son declared themselves bankrupt in 2008.

He said in the show it all started with one major hit. My impression from the show, well he didn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer, kind of naive, quiet and not eloquent at all.

Emme
 
This man was a guest in a talk show here a couple of years ago.
His parents have had a major role in helping him raise the money.
The woman who lent out half of the money was a friend of his parents. She did so thinking she was investing in a computer project in the Czech republic.

So basically from what I remember and what I have read, the man lived in hotels mainly in the
Czech republic, and asked his parents to help him finance his project.
His parents who have huge debts because of their son declared themselves bankrupt in 2008.

He said in the show it all started with one major hit. My impression from the show, well he didn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer, kind of naive, quiet and not eloquent at all.

Emme

Yes, it is quite correct. His father was a bishop in Norway, but quitted his job because of this case.

Somebody later stated "when a bishop quit, it`s either money or sexual relationships involved :rolleyes:
 
This case was discussed here at Casinomeister forums a couple of years ago:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/free-30-000-bonus-this-is-how.26914/

There are links to several articles in that thread, here's the first two of them translated from Norwegian to English.

An unthinkable cynical and raw industry (Translated from Norvegian):
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He was an important customer (Translated from Norvegian):
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Based on that interview with former Bet365 employee it looks like the casino used very dirty tactics to make the player come back and lose more. So I didn't think that the casinos involved should be completely left off the hook regarding this case.
 
Thanks for that Jufo :)

I did see that old thread and it was mostly about Bet365. I find it a bit strange that this player only has sued Centrebet and not Bet365. But they may have settled or the player did not feel he had a good case against Bet365.
 
There was a case here in the city where some city employee went to the casino in his company vehicle and sat in the casino all day when he was supposed to be at work.

And then there was some woman who embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars from her employers so she could go feed the bandits.

In the one case the player wasn't playing on his own time, in the other case the player wasn't playing with her own money - is the casino responsible for the losses in either case? Of course not - the responsibility is all on the player. In the second case I think the woman's employers may have had more of a case against the casino than this guy did. He got some of his money by lying, but this woman got hers by stealing.

But this made me curious - I know there have been cases of an underaged player going to a casino and winning, and payout is denied because the player shouldn't have been there in the first place. Do they refund the money that the player had when they came in? What if the player loses and then proves that they're underage? Does the casino give back the losses? Does anyone know?
 
Hmmm, I agree with above posts that the casino shouldn't be liable. A couple of points off the top of my head. First, the 'mental illness' this man suffers from is addiction. These addictive behaviours, although compulsive, are essentially the choice of the individual (i.e., only the individual can choose to attempt to stop). It's a long hard road back but only by acknowledging their own responsibility and really wanting to stop can this occur. Blaming the casino is not the way to get there. It is simply looking to place external blame.

Secondly, I work with those who are mentally unwell and it really gets me when this is paraded around as an excuse. The syndrome they talk about is related to some learning difficulties and possible mental retardation. It ranges from mild to severe. Now, given this man was commiting fraud by getting money for some business project, living independently, and supposedly working, I suspect he is 'high functioning'. In other words, the mental illness becomes yet another external excuse and generally does not impact too much on his day to day functioning and ability to make a decision. At the most it might predispose him to impulse control disorders (e.g., gambling) which he and his support network should have been aware of. It is not up to the casino to be aware of this, and in fact would be impossible (unless they demand medical certificate and histories from all their players).

I don't know what the casino did to 'draw him in' (i.e., the tactics metioned). The only fact as I see it currently in the article is that this man is addicted to gambling. He obtained money fraudulently, gambled, lost and now wants to blame the casino, his 'mental illness, and probably everyone and everything other than stopping and taking responsibility. I fear for this person's recovery when he does not appear to be at a point of acknowledging his own liability in this situation.
 
I wrote a post on my Casinomeister blog about a player who is suing Centrebet for his gambling losses . The case is pending.

I would like to know what you think in general. Can a casino in some circumstances be liable for a player's gambling losses?




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No. I don't think casinos are responsible for that. It is the players' responsibility for losing.
 
30k bonus? Aw come on! :lolup:

The casinos knew he had a problem and they just tried to suck as much as they could from him.

Take em' to the courts!


He was allegedly also given several trips around in Europe.

Wish I was offered a nice vacation trip instead of a €100 bonus with x40 WR :p
 
What next?

An alcoholic who develops liver cancer sues a bartender for giving him free drinks, knowing that he had a drinking problem?

An obese person who has a heart attack sues their favorite restaurant for giving him free sides and desserts as a loyal customer?

Come on people.

Nobody FORCES anyone to place a bet. Until that happens, all losses are the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PLAYER . End of story.

Enticement is NOT the same as incitement.

It's time people stopped blaming everyone else for their mistakes and accepted that GAMBLING is all about RISK - and if you CAN'T live with the RISK then DON'T GAMBLE.
 
What next?

An alcoholic who develops liver cancer sues a bartender for giving him free drinks, knowing that he had a drinking problem?

An obese person who has a heart attack sues their favorite restaurant for giving him free sides and desserts as a loyal customer?

Come on people.

Nobody FORCES anyone to place a bet. Until that happens, all losses are the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PLAYER . End of story.

Enticement is NOT the same as incitement.

It's time people stopped blaming everyone else for their mistakes and accepted that GAMBLING is all about RISK - and if you CAN'T live with the RISK then DON'T GAMBLE.


Are you mad? Well you are right there dude. Actually, we gamble all the time.
We take the risk every time.:thumbsup:
 
The question originally posed by rainmaker was
"Can a casino in some circumstances be liable for a player's gambling losses?"
Generally I would say no, but I believe in some cases they could actually be liable, the casino's way of acting being the determining factor.
Ain't that why we're at this forum, to rest assure that the casinos we choose measure up to certain ethical standards.
I welcome this case because if the actions of the casino(s) is highlighted what have we got to lose? Isn't that a good thing?
I have no knowledge of if a verdict in favour of either part would count as a prejudice, but still it will be interesting.
Casinos make their bucks on people's need for "recreational" playing and they make their bucks on people who have an addiction. Obviously they can't keep track of how solvent people are or how addictive they are,
but this is something out of the ordinary. I would say if the casino had some ethical standards they would at some point at least question the player's behavior.
Again, that's why I welcome it and believe it's interesting, what was the casino's line of action?

Emme
 
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People need to take some responsibility for their actions. However, I don't believe this is a case of 'you duped me into playing', I think it's more a case of 'My lawyer thinks I have a chance of reclaiming a few million Euro, lets have a stab at it'.

Can't see him getting anything from them. Do Norway even have any jurisdiction over an Australian based company? Can they force them to pay?
 
A very thin line here, when looked at from a different perspective it borders around the state of ones mind, and this holds water to such an extent that many covert undercover operations have broke down because of it, when this border line has been encroached purely by a premeditated event on the basis of being beneficial and or to the cause by luring someone to be a part of, something they would not have otherwise undertaken due to not having any knowledge of it, these type of scenarios hold judicial legislature and in many cases have resulted in otherwise guilty parties being acquitted, or at the very least, found not guilty, replace law enforcement agents with VIP managers/CS, affiliates, casino staff, and crimes with deposit bonuses, and it makes interesting reading.


ENTRAPMENT

A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favourable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime except for inducement or persuasion on the part of some Government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty.

In slightly different words: Even though someone may have [sold drugs], as charged by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then he is not guilty. Government agents entrapped him if three things occurred:

- First, the idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.

- Second, the government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving him the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as persuading him to commit the crime.

- And third, the person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the government agents spoke with him.

On the issue of entrapment the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.

If a person had no intent of depositing at a casino until he read a `Special deposit bonus just for you` email, then I personally think cases like these hold water, Lawyers fuelled by greed they may be, but and it`s a huge but, the best Lawyers in the game are the best, because they win, they win because, like any successful in the limelight word of mouth professions advertising, they weigh up the odds before even thinking of taking on such cases.

The third pointer I bolded and underlined, if found to be the case, then it`s a very close call imo.
 
A very thin line here, when looked at from a different perspective it borders around the state of ones mind, and this holds water to such an extent that many covert undercover operations have broke down because of it, when this border line has been encroached purely by a premeditated event on the basis of being beneficial and or to the cause by luring someone to be a part of, something they would not have otherwise undertaken due to not having any knowledge of it, these type of scenarios hold judicial legislature and in many cases have resulted in otherwise guilty parties being acquitted, or at the very least, found not guilty, replace law enforcement agents with VIP managers/CS, affiliates, casino staff, and crimes with deposit bonuses, and it makes interesting reading.


ENTRAPMENT

A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favourable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime except for inducement or persuasion on the part of some Government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty.

In slightly different words: Even though someone may have [sold drugs], as charged by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then he is not guilty. Government agents entrapped him if three things occurred:

- First, the idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.

- Second, the government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving him the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as persuading him to commit the crime.

- And third, the person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the government agents spoke with him.

On the issue of entrapment the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped by government agents.

If a person had no intent of depositing at a casino until he read a `Special deposit bonus just for you` email, then I personally think cases like these hold water, Lawyers fuelled by greed they may be, but and it`s a huge but, the best Lawyers in the game are the best, because they win, they win because, like any successful in the limelight word of mouth professions advertising, they weigh up the odds before even thinking of taking on such cases.

The third pointer I bolded and underlined, if found to be the case, then it`s a very close call imo.

There can be no entrapment because the player is not committing a crime.

IMO none of the above applies to online gaming. Making a deposit is a conscious decision which involves several steps which gives the player ample opportunity to back out. Anyone who voluntarily goes through these steps is most certainly " ready willing and able".

What the casino did was ENTICEMENT not ENTRAPMENT, and they are very different animals.

As I said, nobody was holding their family hostage or holding a gun to their head.

It's pathetic when players blame others for their own predicaments, whether it be " rigged software" or " individual rtps" or whatever.....if you arent prepared to lose then DONT GAMBLE.
 
There can be no entrapment because the player is not committing a crime.

I distinctly made a point of exchanging the facts to coincide with gambling, I didn`t say he was committing a crime, most cases involving suing are civil and not criminal.

IMO none of the above applies to online gaming. Making a deposit is a conscious decision which involves several steps which gives the player ample opportunity to back out. Anyone who voluntarily goes through these steps is most certainly " ready willing and able".

Indeed, gambling is entirely down to the person and no physical forcing is evident, but it boils down to psychological enticement, along a par with subliminal images in adverts shown at cinemas etc just before an interlude, these are now banned in a lot of countries..

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What the casino did was ENTICEMENT not ENTRAPMENT, and they are very different animals.

If I want a few hours of gambling I go to where it`s at, I do not want where it`s at coming to me. This I would guess is the whole basis of the court case, enticement falls under the same category of subliminal messages.


As I said, nobody was holding their family hostage or holding a gun to their head.

As long as they are not suffering from personality disorders that`s fine :rolleyes:

It's pathetic when players blame others for their own predicaments, whether it be " rigged software" or " individual rtps" or whatever.....if you arent prepared to lose then DONT GAMBLE.

Couldn`t agree more, no one is forcing anyone to gamble, but then again, how many small children are forced into the backs of vans instead of lured in with the promise of candy?, there are many threads here regarding people depositing at a Rogue casino after receiving an eye popping email only to discover the hard way that their winnings will never be received, do these people need protecting or be prepared to lose, as after all it`s online gambling and those T&C`s did explain it, if only they had read section 18.1.2. paragraph three sentence two.

It has been proved beyond doubt that certain Rogue casinos use amongst many other things, rigged software, hidden clauses in bonuses, bonus abuse wild cards, any excuse under the sun to refuse a payout, i`m not saying this is the case, far from it, but until every casino employs the ethics of 32Red, 3Dice, and several more, then cases like this that expose underhand tactics of exploiting peoples vulnerabilities (which obviously have been used by at least one of the casinos) need bringing to the surface.

For every 32Red group casino there`s 50 virtual group casinos, the court ruled in favour of the Plaintiff against one of the casinos, so obviously in certain circumstances even accredited casinos here, break the rules, and, certain people need protecting against these case scenarios.
 
@Seventh

Are you now saying that any player who has a personality disorder is entitled to have their losses refunded because the casino should have KNOWN they had a personality disorder? If so, then every casino in the world is in BIG trouble.

How can you even begin to compare child abduction techniques with casino enticement offers? The player KNOWS what they are getting into - the child does not. Imo it is ludicrous.

AFAIC if you have enough nouse to fund an ewallet, fund your casino account with that wallet and play games for money when you KNOW there is huge risk of losing, then you are 'sane' or 'aware' enough to bear responsibility for your actions.

Its just another excuse for the " It's never my fault its someone else's" brigade to - well - blame someone else for their own stupidity.
 
I think it'll come down to who has the better lawyer(s) in criminal court it is beyond REASONABLE doubt no lee way if there is possibility the individual accused didn't do it then thats how it has to be viewed however in civil court there is some leeway your story only needs to be conceivable and believable and believed by the judge.
Of course even if he does win he still needs to collect. that'll take another 10 years and appeal after appeal. Chances are if he's got a leg to stand on or the casino wants good publicity they'll settle outta court. Can't see the bank being able to collect either he's broke. If he gets charged well he's crazy so they put him in a hospital as NCR (not criminally responsible) 2-3 yrs later (it's not a violent crime) he walks la dee da.
Some mentally ill people are extremely intelligent with very high I.Q. You can hear commanding voices that tell you to do things and it doesn't mean your incompetent Many great historical figures suffered from recurrent psychosis some of which led to incredible inventions and feats of engineering. In fact a very famous artist suffered from psychosis...........Can you guess who?
 
Nobody FORCES anyone to place a bet. Until that happens, all losses are the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PLAYER . End of story.

While this is mostly true there are many examples that disprove this.

A customer asking to be permanently excluded from the casino is a clear indicator to the casino that there is a problem.

If the casino were to allow the customer to gamble in this scenario it makes the casino an accessory to the harm done (financial.)

Kind of like a get away driver at the scene of a crime. While the get away driver did not commit the crime he is liable for responsibility because of the type of relation he has to the crime.
 
It would depend on the level of inducement. There is simply providing the opportunity, and there is the "hard sell" tactic where the "customer" is NEVER left alone, and is pestered constantly with ever better inducements until they DO buy the product, just to get some peace and quiet.

The Virtual group have a habit of phoning day & night to get a deposit out of a player, and even when told not to phone anymore, they just carry on, even INCREASING the pressure (such as phoning you at work).

The "average person" is NOT equipped to handle the professional level "hard sell", since it requires considerable "will power" to resist the technique, and wear the SALESPERSON down.

It is like a fight between a professional boxer and the average, but well built, person. It's NEVER going to be a fair fight.

These are the factors a court will look at, and key will be whether the player ONLY carried on playing because of a constant "hard sell" from the casino.
 
These are the factors a court will look at, and key will be whether the player ONLY carried on playing because of a constant "hard sell" from the casino.

Yes, I agree VWM.

As an addition. This will depend on whether that player will be seen as a "hobby" gambler or a professional gambler.

If the court thinks his livelihood was gambling, then he will be seen as a professional gambler. In that case will he not have the same protection as a "ordinary" consumer.

It will be expected that a professional player will be able to deal with "hard sell" from a casino.
 
Does all this legal advice come from a particular source? E.g a lawyer specializing in gambling-related civil matters?

If not, it just conjecture as none of us are qualified to give such advice.

Willpower, fair fight, its all crapola IMO - just another excuse to avoid personal responsibility. We aren't talking about someone being forced to 'buy' something against their will e.g a gas oven when they don't have gas lines or a bicycle when they have no legs.

I don't remember the player being severely harassed. I also don't remember them CLOSING their account and insisting they not be contacted. The player WANTED to play - the casino just provided the facilities. How about changing phone numbers etc if he was THAT desperate to NOT gamble.

Self exclusion is a different animal and it must ALWAYS be adhered to by operators IMO. However this isn't the case here.

What next? Diners having to weigh in when entering a restaurant to make sure the chef isn't enabling obesity? Gastroscopies before offering coffee to make sure nobody with ulcers is served?

Come on. If you can't do the time don't do the crime
 
Does all this legal advice come from a particular source? E.g a lawyer specializing in gambling-related civil matters?

If not, it just conjecture as none of us are qualified to give such advice.

Willpower, fair fight, its all crapola IMO - just another excuse to avoid personal responsibility. We aren't talking about someone being forced to 'buy' something against their will e.g a gas oven when they don't have gas lines or a bicycle when they have no legs.

I don't remember the player being severely harassed. I also don't remember them CLOSING their account and insisting they not be contacted. The player WANTED to play - the casino just provided the facilities. How about changing phone numbers etc if he was THAT desperate to NOT gamble.

Self exclusion is a different animal and it must ALWAYS be adhered to by operators IMO. However this isn't the case here.

What next? Diners having to weigh in when entering a restaurant to make sure the chef isn't enabling obesity? Gastroscopies before offering coffee to make sure nobody with ulcers is served?

Come on. If you can't do the time don't do the crime

With so many "nanny state" governments around, there is no such thing any longer. We are not ALLOWED free choice in many aspects, even where the ONLY person likely to come to harm from a choice is OURSELVES. For example, we cannot CHOOSE not to wear a seatbelt, or a motorcycle helmet, the LAW dictates which choice we must make.

The "nanny state" also curbs what it thinks are the excesses of the business world, and businesses are NOT free to do business by "any means they like".

Civil litigation has often given us some pretty weird results, with cases where common sense tells us the plaintiff has on-one to blame but themselves, yet he achieves VICTORY against the company.

Many SMOKERS have brought cases, some SUCCESSFUL, yet there was NEVER any case of them being FORCED to smoke. The tobacco companies merely gave them the opportunity to smoke, and made access to the products as easy as possible, and showed their smoking products in a positive light. Although there were risks, there was no PROOF until fairly recently that these risks were directly linked to smoking, yet there have still been victories.

Asbestos is another. At the time, no-one knew there was a risk of exposure to the fibres, and thus this "dust" was treated like any other workplace "dust", which meant workers often inhaled it. When the risks were proven, working practice changed to prevent such exposure, yet workers who were made ill from inhaling the fibres BEFORE the risks were known are WINNING case after case against the companies.

This shows that even "we could not have known at the time" is NOT necessarily a watertight defence against a claim, and this case could end up going either way, and there is a great deal of money at stake.
It's not even the PLAYER that has lost out, it is those who loaned him the money that stand to recover it, the player will see little even if they DO win the case. It may not just be the player's lawyers the casino has to worry about.
 
Does all this legal advice come from a particular source? E.g a lawyer specializing in gambling-related civil matters?

I see this as a forum for discussions based on people's experiences and knowledge. I do not think it is necessary to have a formal education in order to express a opinion in a forum.

I have studied what is called "law and management" (Norwegian and European law) several years. With that background, I will be quite interested in such cases even though I am not a lawyer. But I do not care if people here are lawyers or not. It's a forum. People have different backgrounds.
 
I see this as a forum for discussions based on people's experiences and knowledge. I do not think it is necessary to have a formal education in order to express a opinion in a forum.

I have studied what is called "law and management" (Norwegian and European law) several years. With that background, I will be quite interested in such cases even though I am not a lawyer. But I do not care if people here are lawyers or not. It's a forum. People have different backgrounds.

I agree to a point.

My intention was to point out that nobody should rely on legal opinions expressed in this forum and should just see it for what it is - like you said, just an opinion like any other. I certainly wasn't inferring that nobody should express them, that is not my right nor desire. It's also important to note that the law is different everywhere and what applies in one jurisdiction may not fly in another.

Now, continue opining....... :)
 
I agree to a point.

My intention was to point out that nobody should rely on legal opinions expressed in this forum and should just see it for what it is - like you said, just an opinion like any other. I certainly wasn't inferring that nobody should express them, that is not my right nor desire. It's also important to note that the law different everywhere.

Now, continue opining....... :)

Yes, I also agree to what you say. I just assume that people here understand that this can not be regarded as "formal" advises.

You do have a good point about "It's also important to note that the law is different everywhere ". You're absolutely right. Some in this forum is talking about these cases like there is a "common" worldwide law. That is of course not correct. And in this concrete case, only the Norwegian law will apply.

*back to my opinions* :rolleyes:
 
Yes, I also agree to what you say. I just assume that people here understand that this can not be regarded as "formal" advises.

You do have a good point about "It's also important to note that the law is different everywhere ". You're absolutely right. Some in this forum is talking about these cases like there is a "common" worldwide law. That is of course not correct. And in this concrete case, only the Norwegian law will apply.
*back to my opinions* :rolleyes:

This is the interesting bit. Normally, a casino that is entirely offshore could not be EFFECTIVELY sued, because even if the court ruled against them, how would they ENFORCE it. There are many cases here in the UK where consumers have won judgements, but actually GETTING the money has proven to be impossible, because some companies who are determined to be rogue even ignore the courts, and know how to duck & dive to make any rulings against them ineffective, even WITHOUT hiding offshore. If this player wins, how will the Norwegian authorities ENFORCE the judgement, or indeed ANY sanction, given that the casino is not SUPPOSED to be accepting players from Norway in the first place.
 
This is the interesting bit. Normally, a casino that is entirely offshore could not be EFFECTIVELY sued, because even if the court ruled against them, how would they ENFORCE it. There are many cases here in the UK where consumers have won judgements, but actually GETTING the money has proven to be impossible, because some companies who are determined to be rogue even ignore the courts, and know how to duck & dive to make any rulings against them ineffective, even WITHOUT hiding offshore. If this player wins, how will the Norwegian authorities ENFORCE the judgement, or indeed ANY sanction, given that the casino is not SUPPOSED to be accepting players from Norway in the first place.

Yes agree. This is quite interesting.

First of all. There are no laws in Norway that forbids Norwegian people to gamble online (offshore gambling). The only relevant law we have about online gambling is that Norwegian banks are not allowed to approve transactions marked MCC 7995 from Norwegian customers to gambling sites. MCC 7995 is the Merchant Category Code for gambling. If I do a transaction with my Norwegian card to for example Centrebet, then the Norwegian bank is the one who violates the law, not Centrebet and not the customer. So Centrebet does not violate Norwegian law by offering gambling to Norwegian players.

And yes, there is a always a problem when international companies are convicted in one country, but operates from another country. Especially for a gambling company who in addition might have licenses in other countries. For example Centrebet. They operates mostly from Australia (in my knowledge). They do have a license from UK for their international customers who are betting on sports. They have a license from Malta for international customers who uses their Casino. Centrebet does not even have a office here in Norway. So the Norwegian law system has no opportunity to seize any assets.

The customer in this case (the man this thread is about) did use the casino and he did bet on sports. So this is of course only a mess :)

As a guess, I will assume that a company like Centrebet do consider the Norwegian law system to be reliable. I think that they will obey the verdict. As we know, reputation is everything when it comes to gambling. And I think the Scandinavian market is quite important for Centrebet.
 
Yes agree. This is quite interesting.

First of all. There are no laws in Norway that forbids Norwegian people to gamble online (offshore gambling). The only relevant law we have about online gambling is that Norwegian banks are not allowed to approve transactions marked MCC 7995 from Norwegian customers to gambling sites. MCC 7995 is the Merchant Category Code for gambling. If I do a transaction with my Norwegian card to for example Centrebet, then the Norwegian bank is the one who violates the law, not Centrebet and not the customer. So Centrebet does not violate Norwegian law by offering gambling to Norwegian players.

And yes, there is a always a problem when international companies are convicted in one country, but operates from another country. Especially for a gambling company who in addition might have licenses in other countries. For example Centrebet. They operates mostly from Australia (in my knowledge). They do have a license from UK for their international customers who are betting on sports. They have a license from Malta for international customers who uses their Casino. Centrebet does not even have a office here in Norway. So the Norwegian law system has no opportunity to seize any assets.

The customer in this case (the man this thread is about) did use the casino and he did bet on sports. So this is of course only a mess :)

As a guess, I will assume that a company like Centrebet do consider the Norwegian law system to be reliable. I think that they will obey the verdict. As we know, reputation is everything when it comes to gambling. And I think the Scandinavian market is quite important for Centrebet.

It seems the laws do not match the INTENT, and the offshore operators have taken full advantage. All the need do is disguise the transactions by using a different code, and even the BANKS are not technically breaking the law, as it doesn't seem to require them to investigate miscoding, only block what are clearly 7995 transactions.

What the industry risks is that if their activites come to the attention of the authorities in a negative way, the laws will be changed to make them more effective, just as happened in the US where they always considered the Wire Act to prohibit offshore gambling, but it was completely ineffective at stopping it until UIGEA came along to make the rules much stronger.

It's also easier for a dodgy operator to avoid changing planes at a Norwegian airport than an American one, which is how many of the high profile arrests of offshore operators was achieved in the USA.
 
Im so tired of people trying to sue casinos for there gambling problem and losses.
Why not sue every one. There are people shop till they drop, do we sue stores because they sell to much to a customer.
Come on. I know some have gambling addiction and I know I do to but in the end its me who makes the choice. I love gambling and its what I like but because I may have lose alot Im not going to sue its me and only me that made that choice so to every one thats blaming casinos for there lost, its not the casino fault its your and you should hold up to it!
 

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