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Outing Rogue Affiliates

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by lojo, Nov 17, 2007.

    Nov 17, 2007
  1. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    What is a Rogue Affiliate?

    • Someone who promotes rogue casinos.
    • Someone who links to known rogue affiliates.
    • Lazy, greedy webmasters who don't bother to check the intergrity of their links.

    Check your links and affiliations, please.
     
    14 people like this.
  2. Nov 17, 2007
  3. hippo925

    hippo925 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    medical field
    Location:
    so cal
    i've seen that a lot actually. and to be honest, i feel really bad for people who stumble onto those sites reading about these great casinos and great 1 million dollar bonuses. of course, they are on the roque or not recommended lists here.

    thankful am i that i know about casinomeister. but i wonder how many people don't?
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Nov 17, 2007
  5. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Many longtime posters here have affiliate links in their signatures. This is great, and the vast majority of them are 'clean'. I'd just encourage anyone who cares about the unwitting victim (uninformed player) to click every signature link you see here; if there are known rogues on the site, PM the affiliate and inform them... if they don't remove the rogue links from their site within a reasonable time; out them here.

    Note: For those that don't know the role of the affiliate in the grand scheme of things; here is some excellent reading. http://www.casinomeister.com/casino-research/casino-affiliates-help.php

    In brief; when you sign up at a casino through a web page that is not the actual casino - the person who provided the link is paid for your business by the casino affiliate program, as sort of a 'sales commission'. (can be a one-time referal fee, a percentage of your losses over time, or a mixture of the two)

    This can be a positive productive business relationship, and when you click through from a site like Casinomeister.com, you are supporting the forum and the work that Bryan does. Some of his links are found in the Accredited Casino section.

    When you click through to a casino from a site that makes money from referring customers to a casino that will rip them off; you are financially supporting an affiliate who is no better than the rogue they promote. The more money they make by sending sheep to slaughter, the more likely they will be to send more.

    Some affiliates out there have no morals in this regard, and some are simply uninformed and would probably prefer to do the right thing if it is pointed out to them.

    Again, the vast majority of affiliates who post here are people of integrity and good business morals. It's up to each of us to decide what, if anything, we will do.
     
    4 people like this.
  6. Nov 17, 2007
  7. BingoT

    BingoT Nurses love to give shots webmeister

    Occupation:
    Nursing & Run Bus Trips
    Location:
    Hartford,Ct
    Awww Thank You lojo,
    Like the other day someone told me about bingoisus and I took them off after I looked into it even more.
    I myself don't do this as an income and I don't have one part of my body that has greed in it one bit.After 7 years many people know what I do and Iam proud in what I do.
    Over the years I tell people to please tell me if they join anything I have to offer and I will be happy to comp them myself but no one ever says a word because I think many people don't want anyone to know their business.and i'm fine with that but it would be nice.
    I can rat out many that do this for profit & greed but that is not my business.
    And please if I have something that is no good to the player please give me heads up because I hate hurting people in any shape or form.
    As an affiliate everyone has to have trust in them wiithout that you have nothing.
    And everywhere you go you see this one is talking ^%$# about that one and this one is talking ^%$# about that one and so on.
    To this day I only get my 2 cents in with only one person because they have over 90 places and they are all no good.And they are out for blood.
    I do say if your going to join a place do it with an affiliate and not stright to the site.Why give the casino everything.But find a affiliate that will work for the person if they have run ins with that place.An extra hand always makes a better out come in things.

    Thank You
    I hope i'm one of the good one's
    Tom
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Nov 17, 2007
  9. USA2112

    USA2112 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Rehab old dwellings and playing music/guitar/etc..
    Location:
    USA
    Good subject lojo, theres allot of websites that dont take the player into consideration when advertising as an affiliate even though they should. I think many fall short when starting their website, its almost counter productive thinking, they think it is this big cash cow and they do not care about the players and think their going to get their hands on the big money. Not you need return customers. The ones I loathe the most are people who use free sites and dont read the TCs for the site. They put up a bunch of casino banners and are breaking laws! when doing so, it is illegal. Thats a story in itself And does nothing but hurt the whole industry.

    Its not just about getting people to signup as players, for the webmaster / affiliate to earn money that comes from satisfied customers that signup at casinos and are willing to return and play, which means, players do prefer casinos that have good customer support and can be trusted when it comes time to cash out. Sending people to rogue casinos so they get ripped off is not a good strategy, 1.) you know they wont go back and play at the casino again why should they = 0 profit 2.) chances are, I doubt they will come back to the website where they found the offer and signup for another round of abuse. Lost of members = 0 profit

    Ive been around the gaming forums for several years I have seen it all and just recently started my own site Its harder then I thought and Im using php and Im trying to make sure to use nothing but good quality casino/poker offers, Thats important and I still have a little weeding to do, and quite a bit of work on good content and such. But, most important is trying to do it right the first time and not just create a rogue pit, just would not make any sense.

    I could care less if I make a nickel or a dollar, nickels right now thats not what it is about for me, I just like being around gambling in general and I would think any perspective customer would be the same they like gambling. Send them to the wrong casino and that can only happen once, send them to the right casino and they will return and play. I know I look at it that way.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Nov 17, 2007
  11. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    That's great, Tom! And I'm sure if someone pointed out a link on your site, and you found that they weren't treating players right, you'd remove the link right away.

    I can also understand if CasinoX didn't think it was any of their business where else an affiliate pointed, as long as CasinoX was an honest casino... I just don't agree that it is okay for them to pay people who may use the income to promote other casinos that will rip the players off.

    I can be enlightened if anyone disagrees with my philosphy there... as it may reach too far and ultimately be none of my business.

    I just don't think it's us against them (players vs casinos) I think it's the good guys and the bad guys. There are rogue players, rogue affiliates, and rogue casinos. There are honest players, honest affiliates, and honest casinos. That is the line that should be drawn in my opinion, and people should step on one side of the line and be counted if they care about others in their 'class'.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2007
  12. Nov 17, 2007
  13. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks for the reply, USA2112. You make good business sense and I hope you succeed. If I would have a had a clue about the affiliate thing or was even remotely focused on online gambling when I started doing web development in '95 I think I could have done well for myself. (I don't really do anything web related any more)

    I'd also be real interested in what some of the other webmasters have to say, as well as players and casinos. One of the Rival affiliate managers has assured us that they screen their potential affiliates for rogue content.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Nov 18, 2007
  15. USA2112

    USA2112 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Rehab old dwellings and playing music/guitar/etc..
    Location:
    USA
    Your right lojo, 95 you would have caught the whole wave, but its never to late. I could have caught half of the wave but being I procrastinate to much and the rehabbing business I have I just let it slip on by. No biggie though, and I havent chose the greatest time to start because of legislations ect but I still look forward to the challenge to see what comes of it. Ah! the road to success! yeah right lets just say Im glad Im still in the rehab business.

    Its good to hear certain Rivals are screening their affiliate sites maybe others will follow. No matter where the overall industry is today theres allot of changes that need to be made in the future that taint the business, including the fraudulent players that create multiple accounts and are always trying to cheat the casinos, this does nothing but put good casinos on the defensive. Not good! I believe this is a part of why some casinos end up rogue and bankrupt, they werent prepared for these types of obstacles like rogue players and chose unsavory tactics to fight against the situation.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Nov 18, 2007
  17. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    As time goes on, maybe you can 'rehab' rogue affiliate sites for a fee:thumbsup:

    I have a friend on here with whom I haven't spoken in quite awhile; he looks out for affiliates... I have thought about approaching him to see if he would consider 'certifying' his members or somehow assuring they're 'clean'. He may already, never looked at his site.

    Err hemmm... to any iffy casino reading this, you might want to get out of the Rogue Pit and off the Blacklists asap... I'm starting to get a little ember of passion in the pit of my gut... I'm sure with enough player community involvement, ANY casino that decided to run right could increase their revenues by being a stand up operation. I'd only want to offer a win/win situation.


    μεγαλομανία moi?:p
     
  18. Nov 18, 2007
  19. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    I have a different definition of rogue affiliate. A rogue affiliate might include any of the following:

    -- Sends unwanted spam. This may include email, as well as forum spam.

    -- Has a site that causes unwanted downloads, such as an unexpected casino toolbar or a virus.

    -- Copies content without permission.

    -- Intentionally posts incorrect or misleading information, usually in an effort to encourage sign-up through their links. (This is surprisingly common, so much so, that I do not trust content on the majority of affiliate sites)

    -- Unintentionally posts seriously damaging information to referred players, usually due to lack of knowledge about casinos or gambling.

    -- Uses search engine "black hat" techniques, either on their site or on their competitors' sites.

    -- Certain unfriendly site issues, like neverending pop-ups (close one and another appears).

    -- Other things that don't come to mind.

    ==================================

    Regarding promoting rogue casinos, I think it is more an issue of how the rogue casinos are promoted. Saying Rogue Casino X is great without explanation may fall under multiple categories above. However, saying Rogue Casino X is bad... play there at your own risk, does not.

    On my site, I list all casinos that use the common softwares. This includes accredited casinos, rogue casinos, and casinos without affiliate programs. If I am aware of unexpected issues that may occur at the casino, I include a warning that describes the possible problems.. This allows players to make an informed decision about whether they want to play there or not. There are warnings about some accredited casinos, most of the rogues, and some casinos that are neither accredited or rogue. I hate when groups hide information from me because they think it is bad for me, and I wouldn't want to have a website that pretended certain casinos did not exist, simply because I think they are bad.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2007
    2 people like this.
  20. Nov 18, 2007
  21. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    I'm going to have to think about that for quite awhile AKA23. Thank you for posting. Any other thoughts?
     
  22. Nov 18, 2007
  23. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Okay, i read it again... I agree that the definition of a 'rogue affiliate' should be expanded, and you did it beautifully. I would love to see more discussion.

    i don't pretend to know the intracies of the business.

    Do you make affiliate moneys from casinos that are rogued here and blacklisted elsewhere?

    Please don't take offense, you know the esteem I hold you in for the gambler's sake; and I hope you know, by references in my posts to your site, that you have the best bonus info available to my knowledge.

    I just believe there is a line... and any one who makes money off of casinos that do not pay their players, can be on the rogue side of the line. I am not black and white, I don't believe in the carrot and the stick. I want a win/win situation. And that isn't grey/gray.

    A thief is a thief. A co-conspirator is just that.

    Information for information's sake carries responsibility.

    Bottom line in my opinion: You can share all the information you choose to, but if you make a penny off of a gambler who gets ripped off, YOU ripped the gambler off.

    Out yourself as a clean affiliate if you are an affiliate, and please remember I want this thread to be win/win.


    I would rather bring a rogue 'into the light' than affect their revenue stream, it's better for everybody; and I didn't only refer to the Rogue Pit, but all Blacklists.

    Belee me, AKA, I know I may be over my head, but somebody's got to do this stuff. Challenge authority, especially your own. And I'll do the same.

    Respect
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Nov 18, 2007
  25. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    I am fairly certain I have never received affiliate payment from the casinos on the current rogue list. I have received payment from some casinos that appeared in the rogue section in the past, like the Fortune Lounge group (Microgaming) and 888.com .
     
    2 people like this.
  26. Nov 18, 2007
  27. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Excellent!!! Thank you for easing my mind. Where can we go from here?
     
  28. Nov 18, 2007
  29. USA2112

    USA2112 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Rehab old dwellings and playing music/guitar/etc..
    Location:
    USA
    Not sure if the pay would be the same, but I know the job would be easier.



    I see the point here about letting people make their own informed decisions, We are talking about adults cant say I agree 100% though if there is an affiliate link that comes with the information on the rogue casino.

    When it comes to online gambling you have experienced players that do their homework and have been around enough to know rogue casinos are rogue for a good reason and thats why they dont get bit by these casinos.

    Then you have inexperience players that may be new to gambling altogether. These are the players that even though they have been well informed still may take an enticing bonus offer from a rogue casino compared to an average bonus from an accredited casino.

    Accredited casino offers on average are 100% match bonus and average play through some times a little more. On the other hand, most Rogue casinos usually offer match bonuses that are ridiculous like 400%, 600%, 900% and average play through and is clearly very enticing to the newbies. This is the intensions of the rogue casino tactics, it is not to try and entice an experience player They just walk away But the newbie thats a different story.

    No pun intended! But its like you have two stray dogs and you throw two chicken bones in the back yard, one having a little chicken left on it and the other one has a hole lot of chicken left on it dowsed in Tabasco sauce, both dogs will smell the chicken bones but, the experience dog will leave the one that smells funny alone and the inexperienced dog even though he knows it smells funny will gobble it right up and get burned. Then after words do it again and neither dog will take the chicken bone with Tabasco sauce, question is though will both dogs come back for another serving of what was thrown in the yard, I doubt it.




    Watchdog sites like the Casinomeister are here also to inform players of rogue casinos and let players make their own decisions based on being well informed, and if players want to take certain risk and ignore the warnings that is up to them. Theres just one small difference, theres no affiliate links for the casino attached to the information. Watchdog sites are not just for players they are also here to help webmasters and affiliates keep there sites clean of rogue casinos and it does help. Take today, if I would not have read this thread I would still be running Atlantic lounge, nice enticing offer too, $18 no deposit. But it is in the rogue pit for good reasons and I would not want to signup right now and I definitely would not suggest it for anyone else to signup right now, even with an explanation of the casino being rogue.

    All casinos have a chance for redemption the same as players have decisions to make on where they signup and play, what offers they take and where they continue to play but until the casinos that use rogue tactics do come forward to resolve these issues with cheating players out of their cash like Atlantic lounge is doing right now, I will wait on advertising them and if they do come forward and resolve the issues, the offer will be right back where it was before I took it down. Rogue casinos will always be there but that doesnt mean we have to advertise for them.

    This is just my opinion and there was no offence intended. I just feel that the sooner the rogue casinos get out of the way an accredited casino may come along and take their place. Makes for better business, satisfied players and more income.
     
  30. Nov 18, 2007
  31. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    I wouldn't say "most" rogue casinos offer 400-900% bonuses. I believe the only ones on the "rogue casinos" list with bonuses this high are the Virtual and Casinova groups. There are also plenty of quality casinos with high bonuses. Not long ago, several accredited Microgaming casinos offered 400% bonuses. Two quality GV casinos offer 500+% bonuses. Some reputable Microgaming casinos entice new players with as much as $1000 free play, and some have a good chance of as much as a 1000% bonus. It's not the lure of a high bonus % that makes a casino rogue.

    Yes, there are some players that may make a poor decision when they see an enticing bonus. There are also some players who may make poor decisions about gambling in general, and stand a chance to lose far more than just a sign-up bonus. If you are trying to protect information from players because they may make poor decisions, then one might come to the conclusion to not promote gambling at all. Some US legislatures have used similar arguments recently. I am not saying you should promote rogue casinos. I'm saying protecting information from players because they could get lured in by enticing bonuses is not a reason I'd choose.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2007
  32. Nov 18, 2007
  33. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    Being an animal lover, I must set this one straight before I address the real subject:

    Neither dog will come back because chicken bones splinter and never should be fed to dogs. Both dogs died from slit intestines.

    Now to the real topic.

    IMO affiliates need to spend time on establishing contact with all the groups they advertise. If they don't bother to do that, they can't stand behind their players because the casino groups will just ignore them should there be a problem.

    Casinomeister and my site likely agree 90% to 95% of the time on who is rogue. Occasionally he will rogue someone I don't, or I will rogue someone he doesn't. This isn't because we talked it over and disagreed, it's just based on player experiences from the different sites. It's not an exact science and has a lot of variables.

    I think every affiliate needs to ask themselves:

    "If something goes wrong at this casino, am I in a position to intervene?"

    That is the first criteria I use. If I can't successfully mediate there, you just won't find the place on my site. This makes it very difficult for brand new affiliates, because it takes time to establish the rapport that later will enable you to properly represent players.

    Casinomeister has always been incredible that way, he would mediate even for players who go to play at places listed in the Casinomeister rogue section. I am not sure you can appreciate how hard that is.

    It's a lot easier if you stick with places you know you can talk to reasonably.

    Not every affiliate can or needs to be a Casinomeister. Not everyone has the nerves to deal with Rogues. But every affiliate should be able to stand behind their player community.

    Being an affiliate is a slippery slope. When you are new to the scene, you know as little as new players and will fall in traps and list bad casinos. New affiliates don't all find message boards like Casinomeister and CAP where they can gather information. I remember when I first started I listed Silver Sands because they offered free games for my site and I thought people would like to play and practice for free. It was months before I found message boards and heard about all the bad stuff.

    So, while are a lot of scummy sites are from scamming affiliates who are just out for a quick buck, there are well meaning innocents in that group too.

    Affiliates can't just gather info about whatever casinos they decide to represent and build sites and worry about google etc, they also need to spend time travelling the web, reading message boards and establishing relationships with the places they list.

    While that quickly turns into more than a fulltime job, it's really the only way to provide a good service.

    I don't think simply sticking to the Casinomeister rogue list does the trick, although it of course helps a lot. Each affiliate needs to establish a safety net and support system for players and limit the casino listings to places where they can be confident that things can be resolved.

    And that is still no guarantee that a casino won't pull a fast one, but it makes things a lot safer.

    There is one misconception often heard from players: The affiliate is beholden to the casino because of the money aspect. That's nonsense.

    Firstly, the affiliate has as many casinos to choose from as the player. If a casino does badly by players, it most likely cheats affiliates too. Affiliates get cheated constantly, and most of the time it's by crappy casinos. DUH!

    Secondly, whether casino A or casino B pays for my services is totally irrelevant to me. If A misbehaves, I drop them and put up B. This makes for a measure of "natural selection".

    Casinos to advertise are a dime a dozen. No single casino has any power over an affiliate. Now if you see a site advertising only one casino group, you know they are dependent on that group for income, and hence can't be objective. But places that list a number of different casinos could care less if they drop some of them. It doesn't affect the bottom line at all, income just shifts to a more deserving place.

    As player, I would also look at the usefulness of the affiliate site. Is there useful information? Has the affiliate done any legwork for you?

    Clicking on an affiliate link is like a vote. Players have the power to keep useful affiliates online and make the bad ones close shop. An affiliate site that gets no clicks will shut down, no one can afford to work for free.

    So if you click on spam mail and crappy sites that list rogues, you are keeping them in business and perpetuating the problem. And at the same time you are not giving places like Casinomeister the support they need to stay online.

    Use your votes wisely! They matter and they shape the whole online gambling scene. Ultimately, all the power lies with the player.
     
    7 people like this.
  34. Nov 19, 2007
  35. USA2112

    USA2112 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Rehab old dwellings and playing music/guitar/etc..
    Location:
    USA
    The statement was just hypothetical, Ill change that to a steak bone.
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Nov 19, 2007
  37. dominique

    dominique Dormant account

    Occupation:
    webmistress
    Location:
    The Boonies
    I know. :)

    I just thought I'd take the opportunity to make that comment, lots of people don't know and lots of dogs die when people just meant to be nice.
     
    2 people like this.
  38. Nov 20, 2007
  39. Elgoog

    Elgoog Experienced Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    webmeister
    Location:
    Europe
    wow...
    couldn't have said it better Dominique

    and:
    actually players and affiliates are in the same camp
     

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