Online slots are extremely toxic

The thing is with gambling, you dont have to be an addict or let alone be sensitive for new addictions , to become a gambling addict. That is the whole keypoint in this. The longer you play the more chances there are you will become an addict.

Perhaps the industry is trying to hook a new breed of gamblers. How? Extend the TOD.

This being the case then maybe the current trend is actually good for those who may get or already are addicted. Everyone has differing levels of addiction in them for various vices. Some will never see the fascination in gambling and are never likely to be swayed. However, if you do find slots somewhat alluring then I’d argue the way the industry is currently going, higher variance, lower RTP, will make it very easy to resist.

There will be some who hit a huge win and get hooked but if you pretty much get nothing for your money fairly regularly, as most will, then all bar the top end of the addiction scale will probably just walk away. I have commented elsewhere that AWPs in the UK had a sweet spot years ago where you were entertained and could make a few quid. Not much but a bit. But the manufacturers got greedy and with a fairly compliant government, the jackpots went up, the payouts got bigger and the general play went through the floor. Now admittedly UK machines are/were compensated so you had pro players cleaning them out (a whole other topic entirely) but elements can be seen in the current online world.

Reduce the overall entertainment, increase the jackpots and frequency these pay even though it’s still 1 in whatever large number. Make up for lack of organic fun the slot should produce by introducing buy a feature. Further this even more by allowing you to gamble said feature, go one stage further by having the feature buy be 300 odd times your stake.

These last changes are truly damaging as if you do not have discipline or set your max stake quite low, you can bulldoze your way through hundreds at fairly modest buys in no time at all. Very little effort is made to segregate these from general play. How hard would it be to have one version of say, White Rabbit with no feature buy, and have a feature buy version in a high-roller area with more strict entry requirements or similar. Of course this is not in any way in the interests of the casino as, no matter what anyone says, the easiest, quickest route to as much money as possible is the route which will almost always be taken.

“Greed, for the lack of a better word, is good.”

Now where was I? Ah yes, Extra Chilli, lets be avin’ you.
 
I love some of the posts in this thread that seem to suggest the industry is bad because we want to get people to play our games and we want to make more profit.

So the games industry is also bad? And the car industry that wants you to buy their cars. And the chocolate industry that wants you to enjoy their products.

All businesses exist to make money and give their customers something to like / enjoy / buy more of. We are no different, only we are far more highly regulated than almost any other industry. Maybe any other.

We have to balance the business needs with responsible gambling needs... it's not an easy balance either.
 
I love some of the posts in this thread that seem to suggest the industry is bad because we want to get people to play our games and we want to make more profit.

So the games industry is also bad? And the car industry that wants you to buy their cars. And the chocolate industry that wants you to enjoy their products.

All businesses exist to make money and give their customers something to like / enjoy / buy more of. We are no different, only we are far more highly regulated than almost any other industry. Maybe any other.

We have to balance the business needs with responsible gambling needs... it's not an easy balance either.

No one said it was easy but comparing the gambling industry with things like club cards for your local grocery store and buying cars is frankly ridiculous.

In these examples not only are you generally buying something of substance that you generally need (as well as a limit to what you need) but also have the price and what you get for it in front of you to make an educated choice. It is, most significantly, not a “vice” with addictive elements which in many cases introduce elements which encourage people to spend more and more and more money.

Unfortunately the gambling industry does have a supposed moral obligation as well as making money which is certainly a conflicted and difficult balance but it would be tough to argue there has not been much of the former and far too much of the latter in recent months.
 
Comparing a gambling industry with cars... come'on. At least cars do contribute in a way to 'more work' as a casino simply takes that very same money away for people who used to buy a new car every X year.

Yes i know it's a business. Yes i know they are not there to give you free money. But having 8 out of 10 dead sessions, come'on. How's that supposed to be any entertainment. Did any of the game devs or let alone casino themself enjoy a game and suffer from stress related to gambling? Proberly not.
 
Comparing a gambling industry with cars... come'on. At least cars do contribute in a way to 'more work' as a casino simply takes that very same money away for people who used to buy a new car every X year.

Yes i know it's a business. Yes i know they are not there to give you free money. But having 8 out of 10 dead sessions, come'on. How's that supposed to be any entertainment. Did any of the game devs or let alone casino themself enjoy a game and suffer from stress related to gambling? Proberly not.

If it's not entertaining - don't play. Or try a different game. No one is forcing you to play...
And yes, i'm a player. At times, i've lost a lot. So i know exactly what's it's like.
 
I'd really appreciate a game that offers some action even tho if i lose. To make me leave the session with a reasonable feeling like OK another day would be granted as OK. But the pattern is too obvious and the losing session is too high (8/10).
 
I love some of the posts in this thread that seem to suggest the industry is bad because we want to get people to play our games and we want to make more profit.

So the games industry is also bad? And the car industry that wants you to buy their cars. And the chocolate industry that wants you to enjoy their products.

All businesses exist to make money and give their customers something to like / enjoy / buy more of. We are no different, only we are far more highly regulated than almost any other industry. Maybe any other.

We have to balance the business needs with responsible gambling needs... it's not an easy balance either.


great point!
 
Forgive the long post but I see a lot of opinion in this thread with people trying to justify something harmful by pointing to other harmful things. Yes, profit above all else is damaging(at the very least in the long term, but even in the short term in some cases). Yes, slots are toxic(as are lots of other things). Slots are designed to manipulate players to play longer, and thus lose more money. Or as the resident defender of them says "to get more profit".

To suggest this is the fault of the being with a brain is to ignore the problem that brains are impacted by things around them, what they see, feel, experience etc. This means the free will people who suggest "if you don't like losing just stop" try to evoke doesn't actually exist. If it did nobody would be dumb enough to become a problem gambler or keep spinning after getting feature teased 3 times in a row only for the game to go on teasing for another 1000 spins with the end payout being 20x.

Slots are definitely toxic. You either play, win/lose, and never play again. Or you play, win/lose, and keep playing until you lose(unless you believe certain YouTubers who consistently win high stake gambles who seem to have an army of morons following them).

The following is a refutation of the free will people tend to believe in, so unless you're interested in that or are prone to becoming butt hurt or a bruised ego, I would suggest stopping here.

1. Some people don’t actually believe that their choices are made outside the scope of cause-and-effect.

In the classic Nature or Nurture debate, nobody ever seems to argue for "neither" because everything we do is implicitly understood to be based on antecedent causes. People will object to this, but when asked why they did something, they’re stuck in a corner. They can say it was random, but that’s not free will. Alternatively, they can say, "I did it because…" and fill in the blank. That’s fine, but whatever reason they give will be an example of causality, by definition. That’s the meaning of the word "because." It doesn’t even matter what they put at the end of the phrase – it’s still a cause.

Saying "I did it just because I wanted to," or "I did it just because I chose to," doesn’t help. It only pushes the question back a step, without answering it. Why did they want to? Why did they choose to? Again, they can either claim it was random, or they can give a cause. But neither option offers free will.

2. Chemicals have unequivocal effects on our brains.

If our decisions are not dependent on antecedent causes, then chemicals should not have any affect on them. This is obviously not a reflection of reality, but it’s the logical result of contra-causal free will. Drugs such as alcohol have a very noticeable effect on our cognitive abilities. For obvious reasons, some people don’t deny that this is true. But they also don’t explain why they believe that our decisions are subject to some physical causality (drugs), but not others (everything else in the world).

Some people tend to get lost in abstract concepts like emotions and wills, and forget that they ultimately have to explain their theory in the concrete terms of electrochemistry and neurons.

3. The most compelling evidence for determinism is the consistency of chemistry in general.

Chemicals reactions are unwavering in their predictability, both inside and outside of our bodies. Hydrocarbons don’t get to choose whether they’ll combust; enzymes don’t get to choose whether they’ll react with proteins; and our neurons don’t get to choose whether or not they’ll fire.

This reactive predictability is not optional. Atomic causality is an axiom upon which the scientific method rests. If one can’t depend on effects to have causes, then epistemological uncertainty becomes an ironic guarantee. Nothing could truly be proved or disproved. Our brains could theoretically produce gold out of thin air. And why not? If they can circumvent causality, then there’s no logical limit to what they could do. Some people would probably reject this claim immediately, but why? If they’re suggesting that there is a limit to the brain’s abilities, then what would it be, if not a causal limit?

4. Decisions are not real things; they’re behavioral models.

This is a big one, and it’s not an easy pill to swallow, because it's entirely counter-intuitive. I fully recognize this, but it’s not without evidence.

Cognitive activity is like other bodily activity: at every stage it is predicated on earlier chemistry. Decisions don’t just boot up and then dissipate like computers being switched on and off. Instead, they’re constantly producing, and being produced by previous activity and new input. Decisions develop. Our brains are uncontroversially in a state of constant feedback. Even when we logically believe that our brains are idle, they’re not. They’re always moving. They don’t even sleep the way we do. They’re as busy as ever, even when we’re out cold.

This point is subtle, but it’s crucial: What we call ‘decisions’ are not discrete items that we’ve somehow produced with our ‘wills’. Neither of those things is objectively real. Decisions are merely the latest articulated point in an unending cycle of cognitive activity, of which we do not have intellectual access.

5. No physical theory has been given to explain free will.

There is no hypothesis that physically explains free will. In fact, there isn’t even an empirically observable ‘free will’ to be explained. There is merely the sensation of free will, which compatibilists refer to as "volition." Such volition does not require contra-causal free will, and even if it’s not immediately intuitive, it remains perfectly explainable by physical biology.

Most new scientific explanations are not immediately intuitive. When Maxwell hypothesized that light and magnetism were the same force, people rejected him out of hand. Intuitively Maxwell was wrong, but scientifically he was right. Similarly, it was once counter-intuitive to think that a burning bonfire and a rusting pipe were undergoing the same process. But they are. Along the same lines, most people believed that the bonfire was undergoing the same process as the sun. Today, though, we understand perfectly well that nuclear fusion bears no resemblance to oxidation.

The intuitive sensation of free will is not sufficient reason to believe that it’s actually contra-causal. What is intuitive is often false in the face of scientific inquiry, so relying on what you "feel" is a poor basis for rational philosophy. There are a number of sufficient and defensible explanations for deterministic human behavior – some of which I’ve laid out here – but there are literally no such explanations for free will. Most cognitive scientists believe that our brains function causally, and this belief is not at all without evidence. And to reiterate the larger point: There is no scientific explanation for free will, nor is there any hypothesis that attempts to explain how it might work on a behavioral level, nor is there even a principle or test to demonstrate which entities supposedly have such free will, and which do not.
 
Forgive the long post but I see a lot of opinion in this thread with people trying to justify something harmful by pointing to other harmful things. Yes, profit above all else is damaging(at the very least in the long term, but even in the short term in some cases). Yes, slots are toxic(as are lots of other things). Slots are designed to manipulate players to play longer, and thus lose more money. Or as the resident defender of them says "to get more profit".

To suggest this is the fault of the being with a brain is to ignore the problem that brains are impacted by things around them, what they see, feel, experience etc. This means the free will people who suggest "if you don't like losing just stop" try to evoke doesn't actually exist. If it did nobody would be dumb enough to become a problem gambler or keep spinning after getting feature teased 3 times in a row only for the game to go on teasing for another 1000 spins with the end payout being 20x.

Slots are definitely toxic. You either play, win/lose, and never play again. Or you play, win/lose, and keep playing until you lose(unless you believe certain YouTubers who consistently win high stake gambles who seem to have an army of morons following them).

The following is a refutation of the free will people tend to believe in, so unless you're interested in that or are prone to becoming butt hurt or a bruised ego, I would suggest stopping here.

1. Some people don’t actually believe that their choices are made outside the scope of cause-and-effect.

In the classic Nature or Nurture debate, nobody ever seems to argue for "neither" because everything we do is implicitly understood to be based on antecedent causes. People will object to this, but when asked why they did something, they’re stuck in a corner. They can say it was random, but that’s not free will. Alternatively, they can say, "I did it because…" and fill in the blank. That’s fine, but whatever reason they give will be an example of causality, by definition. That’s the meaning of the word "because." It doesn’t even matter what they put at the end of the phrase – it’s still a cause.

Saying "I did it just because I wanted to," or "I did it just because I chose to," doesn’t help. It only pushes the question back a step, without answering it. Why did they want to? Why did they choose to? Again, they can either claim it was random, or they can give a cause. But neither option offers free will.

2. Chemicals have unequivocal effects on our brains.

If our decisions are not dependent on antecedent causes, then chemicals should not have any affect on them. This is obviously not a reflection of reality, but it’s the logical result of contra-causal free will. Drugs such as alcohol have a very noticeable effect on our cognitive abilities. For obvious reasons, some people don’t deny that this is true. But they also don’t explain why they believe that our decisions are subject to some physical causality (drugs), but not others (everything else in the world).

Some people tend to get lost in abstract concepts like emotions and wills, and forget that they ultimately have to explain their theory in the concrete terms of electrochemistry and neurons.

3. The most compelling evidence for determinism is the consistency of chemistry in general.

Chemicals reactions are unwavering in their predictability, both inside and outside of our bodies. Hydrocarbons don’t get to choose whether they’ll combust; enzymes don’t get to choose whether they’ll react with proteins; and our neurons don’t get to choose whether or not they’ll fire.

This reactive predictability is not optional. Atomic causality is an axiom upon which the scientific method rests. If one can’t depend on effects to have causes, then epistemological uncertainty becomes an ironic guarantee. Nothing could truly be proved or disproved. Our brains could theoretically produce gold out of thin air. And why not? If they can circumvent causality, then there’s no logical limit to what they could do. Some people would probably reject this claim immediately, but why? If they’re suggesting that there is a limit to the brain’s abilities, then what would it be, if not a causal limit?

4. Decisions are not real things; they’re behavioral models.

This is a big one, and it’s not an easy pill to swallow, because it's entirely counter-intuitive. I fully recognize this, but it’s not without evidence.

Cognitive activity is like other bodily activity: at every stage it is predicated on earlier chemistry. Decisions don’t just boot up and then dissipate like computers being switched on and off. Instead, they’re constantly producing, and being produced by previous activity and new input. Decisions develop. Our brains are uncontroversially in a state of constant feedback. Even when we logically believe that our brains are idle, they’re not. They’re always moving. They don’t even sleep the way we do. They’re as busy as ever, even when we’re out cold.

This point is subtle, but it’s crucial: What we call ‘decisions’ are not discrete items that we’ve somehow produced with our ‘wills’. Neither of those things is objectively real. Decisions are merely the latest articulated point in an unending cycle of cognitive activity, of which we do not have intellectual access.

5. No physical theory has been given to explain free will.

There is no hypothesis that physically explains free will. In fact, there isn’t even an empirically observable ‘free will’ to be explained. There is merely the sensation of free will, which compatibilists refer to as "volition." Such volition does not require contra-causal free will, and even if it’s not immediately intuitive, it remains perfectly explainable by physical biology.

Most new scientific explanations are not immediately intuitive. When Maxwell hypothesized that light and magnetism were the same force, people rejected him out of hand. Intuitively Maxwell was wrong, but scientifically he was right. Similarly, it was once counter-intuitive to think that a burning bonfire and a rusting pipe were undergoing the same process. But they are. Along the same lines, most people believed that the bonfire was undergoing the same process as the sun. Today, though, we understand perfectly well that nuclear fusion bears no resemblance to oxidation.

The intuitive sensation of free will is not sufficient reason to believe that it’s actually contra-causal. What is intuitive is often false in the face of scientific inquiry, so relying on what you "feel" is a poor basis for rational philosophy. There are a number of sufficient and defensible explanations for deterministic human behavior – some of which I’ve laid out here – but there are literally no such explanations for free will. Most cognitive scientists believe that our brains function causally, and this belief is not at all without evidence. And to reiterate the larger point: There is no scientific explanation for free will, nor is there any hypothesis that attempts to explain how it might work on a behavioral level, nor is there even a principle or test to demonstrate which entities supposedly have such free will, and which do not.

:) a very in depth and thoughtful post

I'll have to re-read it a few times as me brain has probably been slightly damaged from too much slotting :oops:
but should be some interesting philosophical debates to follow...:cool:
 
Forgive the long post but I see a lot of opinion in this thread with people trying to justify something harmful by pointing to other harmful things. Yes, profit above all else is damaging(at the very least in the long term, but even in the short term in some cases). Yes, slots are toxic(as are lots of other things). Slots are designed to manipulate players to play longer, and thus lose more money. Or as the resident defender of them says "to get more profit".

To suggest this is the fault of the being with a brain is to ignore the problem that brains are impacted by things around them, what they see, feel, experience etc. This means the free will people who suggest "if you don't like losing just stop" try to evoke doesn't actually exist. If it did nobody would be dumb enough to become a problem gambler or keep spinning after getting feature teased 3 times in a row only for the game to go on teasing for another 1000 spins with the end payout being 20x.

Slots are definitely toxic. You either play, win/lose, and never play again. Or you play, win/lose, and keep playing until you lose(unless you believe certain YouTubers who consistently win high stake gambles who seem to have an army of morons following them).

The following is a refutation of the free will people tend to believe in, so unless you're interested in that or are prone to becoming butt hurt or a bruised ego, I would suggest stopping here.

1. Some people don’t actually believe that their choices are made outside the scope of cause-and-effect.

In the classic Nature or Nurture debate, nobody ever seems to argue for "neither" because everything we do is implicitly understood to be based on antecedent causes. People will object to this, but when asked why they did something, they’re stuck in a corner. They can say it was random, but that’s not free will. Alternatively, they can say, "I did it because…" and fill in the blank. That’s fine, but whatever reason they give will be an example of causality, by definition. That’s the meaning of the word "because." It doesn’t even matter what they put at the end of the phrase – it’s still a cause.

Saying "I did it just because I wanted to," or "I did it just because I chose to," doesn’t help. It only pushes the question back a step, without answering it. Why did they want to? Why did they choose to? Again, they can either claim it was random, or they can give a cause. But neither option offers free will.

2. Chemicals have unequivocal effects on our brains.

If our decisions are not dependent on antecedent causes, then chemicals should not have any affect on them. This is obviously not a reflection of reality, but it’s the logical result of contra-causal free will. Drugs such as alcohol have a very noticeable effect on our cognitive abilities. For obvious reasons, some people don’t deny that this is true. But they also don’t explain why they believe that our decisions are subject to some physical causality (drugs), but not others (everything else in the world).

Some people tend to get lost in abstract concepts like emotions and wills, and forget that they ultimately have to explain their theory in the concrete terms of electrochemistry and neurons.

3. The most compelling evidence for determinism is the consistency of chemistry in general.

Chemicals reactions are unwavering in their predictability, both inside and outside of our bodies. Hydrocarbons don’t get to choose whether they’ll combust; enzymes don’t get to choose whether they’ll react with proteins; and our neurons don’t get to choose whether or not they’ll fire.

This reactive predictability is not optional. Atomic causality is an axiom upon which the scientific method rests. If one can’t depend on effects to have causes, then epistemological uncertainty becomes an ironic guarantee. Nothing could truly be proved or disproved. Our brains could theoretically produce gold out of thin air. And why not? If they can circumvent causality, then there’s no logical limit to what they could do. Some people would probably reject this claim immediately, but why? If they’re suggesting that there is a limit to the brain’s abilities, then what would it be, if not a causal limit?

4. Decisions are not real things; they’re behavioral models.

This is a big one, and it’s not an easy pill to swallow, because it's entirely counter-intuitive. I fully recognize this, but it’s not without evidence.

Cognitive activity is like other bodily activity: at every stage it is predicated on earlier chemistry. Decisions don’t just boot up and then dissipate like computers being switched on and off. Instead, they’re constantly producing, and being produced by previous activity and new input. Decisions develop. Our brains are uncontroversially in a state of constant feedback. Even when we logically believe that our brains are idle, they’re not. They’re always moving. They don’t even sleep the way we do. They’re as busy as ever, even when we’re out cold.

This point is subtle, but it’s crucial: What we call ‘decisions’ are not discrete items that we’ve somehow produced with our ‘wills’. Neither of those things is objectively real. Decisions are merely the latest articulated point in an unending cycle of cognitive activity, of which we do not have intellectual access.

5. No physical theory has been given to explain free will.

There is no hypothesis that physically explains free will. In fact, there isn’t even an empirically observable ‘free will’ to be explained. There is merely the sensation of free will, which compatibilists refer to as "volition." Such volition does not require contra-causal free will, and even if it’s not immediately intuitive, it remains perfectly explainable by physical biology.

Most new scientific explanations are not immediately intuitive. When Maxwell hypothesized that light and magnetism were the same force, people rejected him out of hand. Intuitively Maxwell was wrong, but scientifically he was right. Similarly, it was once counter-intuitive to think that a burning bonfire and a rusting pipe were undergoing the same process. But they are. Along the same lines, most people believed that the bonfire was undergoing the same process as the sun. Today, though, we understand perfectly well that nuclear fusion bears no resemblance to oxidation.

The intuitive sensation of free will is not sufficient reason to believe that it’s actually contra-causal. What is intuitive is often false in the face of scientific inquiry, so relying on what you "feel" is a poor basis for rational philosophy. There are a number of sufficient and defensible explanations for deterministic human behavior – some of which I’ve laid out here – but there are literally no such explanations for free will. Most cognitive scientists believe that our brains function causally, and this belief is not at all without evidence. And to reiterate the larger point: There is no scientific explanation for free will, nor is there any hypothesis that attempts to explain how it might work on a behavioral level, nor is there even a principle or test to demonstrate which entities supposedly have such free will, and which do not.

There are many studies that have, in the past, seemed to suggest there is no such thing as free will. There are also studies more recently that seem to infer that this is not the case. But whatever the truth of the matter, it is also untrue to state unequivocally that slots are toxic, because quite simply that isn't true for everyone.

In the same way that alcohol, sex, drugs, extreme sports, driving fast, etc.. can become addictive, so can gambling. And the reasons behind addiction are widely known.

Saying to someone "If you don't like it, don't play" may be as pointless as saying to an alcoholic "If you don't like it, don't drink". But at the same time, just because it is an addiction to some people does not mean that they have absolutely no say in their actions. They do. It will be much more difficult for them, agreed, but they can still stop if they really want to. And there are many ways to try and stop - GamStop, for example.

The balance is key, and making gambling illegal will not stop hardened gamblers. It has been proven many times over that banning gambling just drives the serious gamblers underground and does way more harm than good to those people... so regulated, responsible gaming is surely safer, no?
 
Moreover, I think modern games with good graphics, high RTP and solid potential gives more "bang for the sinful buck". This probably goes both ways, but at least for me, a good game like DOA2 I can wager low on and still feel quite satisfied with the gamble, but on something like an american RNG roulette it would have to be more.
 
There are many studies that have, in the past, seemed to suggest there is no such thing as free will. There are also studies more recently that seem to infer that this is not the case. But whatever the truth of the matter, it is also untrue to state unequivocally that slots are toxic, because quite simply that isn't true for everyone.

In the same way that alcohol, sex, drugs, extreme sports, driving fast, etc.. can become addictive, so can gambling. And the reasons behind addiction are widely known.

Saying to someone "If you don't like it, don't play" may be as pointless as saying to an alcoholic "If you don't like it, don't drink". But at the same time, just because it is an addiction to some people does not mean that they have absolutely no say in their actions. They do. It will be much more difficult for them, agreed, but they can still stop if they really want to. And there are many ways to try and stop - GamStop, for example.

The balance is key, and making gambling illegal will not stop hardened gamblers. It has been proven many times over that banning gambling just drives the serious gamblers underground and does way more harm than good to those people... so regulated, responsible gaming is surely safer, no?

The studies are pretty clear, and if anyone ever discovered it to be true then a Nobel Prize would be waiting. It's much better to believe something when there is enough good evidence for it rather than just assume it to be the case, as that would leave us open to believing all kinds of things until proven false.

Addicts cannot "still stop if they really want to". That is the point. They can't generate the want or desire to stop for a meaningful length of time. That is what makes them addicts. With help, perhaps they could, but we see so often even with help it can still be difficult.

Slots are a special case for me though. They are designed to keep people playing, even after balances are depleted. The tricks used are numerous and disgusting.

Being allowed to legally show near miss features a good number of times more than by chance alone. How often do we see the much needed 3rd bonus symbol land on the last reel on the very next spin? How often are you a single symbol away from a full line? How often do features pay peanuts or no wins? Why do the games seem more generous in demo modes?

I think calling it regulated and responsible is a push. And comparing one bad thing to another bad thing is just a case of whatboutism.

I think slots are toxic just like some drugs, and I wouldn't suggest anyone is using cocaine responsibly. Of course some people will enjoy playing slots, likely the few who win, or those who believe they will. Some people will enjoy drugs too(and believe they're using them "responsibly"). But nothing I say here I'm 100% on so maybe you can give me something to change my mind.
 
The studies are pretty clear, and if anyone ever discovered it to be true then a Nobel Prize would be waiting. It's much better to believe something when there is enough good evidence for it rather than just assume it to be the case, as that would leave us open to believing all kinds of things until proven false.

Addicts cannot "still stop if they really want to". That is the point. They can't generate the want or desire to stop for a meaningful length of time. That is what makes them addicts. With help, perhaps they could, but we see so often even with help it can still be difficult.

Slots are a special case for me though. They are designed to keep people playing, even after balances are depleted. The tricks used are numerous and disgusting.

Being allowed to legally show near miss features a good number of times more than by chance alone. How often do we see the much needed 3rd bonus symbol land on the last reel on the very next spin? How often are you a single symbol away from a full line? How often do features pay peanuts or no wins? Why do the games seem more generous in demo modes?

I think calling it regulated and responsible is a push. And comparing one bad thing to another bad thing is just a case of whatboutism.

I think slots are toxic just like some drugs, and I wouldn't suggest anyone is using cocaine responsibly. Of course some people will enjoy playing slots, likely the few who win, or those who believe they will. Some people will enjoy drugs too(and believe they're using them "responsibly"). But nothing I say here I'm 100% on so maybe you can give me something to change my mind.

I dont disagree with your points here regarding addiction and sure, gambling can be toxic, just like many "adult" forms of entertainment. I do think people can play slots responsibly though and feel like if that wasnt the case things would look very differently at this forum.

On near misses and features that pay peanuts, I disagree that this is disgusting tricks. The market has shown time and time again that this is what it prefers, not only because it becomes more addictive, but because gameplay with that design is more exciting. In "Addiction By Design", a great book on the history of slots, the author describes a period where slots werent allowed to do any kind of weighting or virtual reels. Players hated this and turned to underground casinos just to play the weighted and more exciting stuff.

"Features paying peanuts" is simply a case of avoiding "Having to wait 2000 spins for a feature", all just RTP distribution.
 
I dont disagree with your points here regarding addiction and sure, gambling can be toxic, just like many "adult" forms of entertainment. I do think people can play slots responsibly though and feel like if that wasnt the case things would look very differently at this forum.

On near misses and features that pay peanuts, I disagree that this is disgusting tricks. The market has shown time and time again that this is what it prefers, not only because it becomes more addictive, but because gameplay with that design is more exciting. In "Addiction By Design", a great book on the history of slots, the author describes a period where slots werent allowed to do any kind of weighting or virtual reels. Players hated this and turned to underground casinos just to play the weighted and more exciting stuff.

"Features paying peanuts" is simply a case of avoiding "Having to wait 2000 spins for a feature", all just RTP distribution.

So what does a healthy responsible slots player look like? Are they a winner or a loser? Are they playing for fun or for money?

I still say it's tricks due to the way it manipulates players, as intended. Just because people desire something doesn't mean it's healthy. There is a market preference for lots of things that are demonstrably unhealthy.
 
So what does a healthy responsible slots player look like? Are they a winner or a loser? Are they playing for fun or for money?

I still say it's tricks due to the way it manipulates players, as intended. Just because people desire something doesn't mean it's healthy. There is a market preference for lots of things that are demonstrably unhealthy.

Well there are probably better definitions out there but to me it looks like an adult that spends a small part of his/her income on slots for the purpose of having fun. This small part would be a substitute for a leisure post in his/her budget that has no other purpose than providing fun.
 
1. Gambling is a choice and not a addiction, to many vices nowadays are pigeon holed into the addiction section.

2. The rest far to much waffle to warrant any real interest.

3. Yes online slots are toxic.
 
1. Gambling is a choice and not a addiction, to many vices nowadays are pigeon holed into the addiction section.

2. The rest far to much waffle to warrant any real interest.

3. Yes online slots are toxic.

4. Camels are a man's best friend
 
Ok, can we skip the religion kind of thing(s)?

2 days ago i started with a 10 euro deposit. This is the end-result:

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I'm getting 4x 5000 batches in my account and another 2x 1000 the upcoming days. First 5k already in. I'm burrying online slots for a long time from this point on.
 
Ok, can we skip the religion kind of thing(s)?
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well, threads often go off on tangents, not a big deal as long as they go back on track; usually a new thread will develop off side-tracks :) I mean, your own post above is really a winning screenshot and doesnt much fit the OP :P
 
I was the OP dude. Lol.
yes which is 'online slots are extremely toxic' whereupon you just posted a positive WD off 10 bucks :)
op is this case being 'original post' not 'original poster'
 
yes which is 'online slots are extremely toxic' whereupon you just posted a positive WD off 10 bucks :)

Yes i know it sounds contradictory going from 10 to 22k in barely 2 days, but i've done it. I knew kind of that on one day or moment it would be my day and i would tear the casino another butthole.

But i kind of want to burry the online casino rollercoaster. You dont know what i've bin through the last 2 days as in the effort i had to put to 'beat' it. And that gambling stress (dont tell me playing is easy) is something thats just not for me.
 
Yes i know it sounds contradictory going from 10 to 22k in barely 2 days, but i've done it. I knew kind of that on one day or moment it would be my day and i would tear the casino another butthole.

But i kind of want to burry the online casino rollercoaster. You dont know what i've bin through the last 2 days as in the effort i had to put to 'beat' it. And that gambling stress (dont tell me playing is easy) is something thats just not for me.
I find it fun, but stressful some times too :)
 
I find it fun, but stressful some times too :)

It is fun as long as you win yes. But when deposit after deposit after deposit brings you nowhere it kind of starts eating on you and all conspiracy theories start to live it's own life in your mind on how rigged online slots are.

I still find it 'impossible' for 'any game' to 'not hit' at all. And i surely dont believe games are truely random. They are always within parameters; random within the box. Pre-designed algorithms which ensure a long term profit for the casino upon every spin.
 
It is fun as long as you win yes. But when deposit after deposit after deposit brings you nowhere it kind of starts eating on you and all conspiracy theories start to live it's own life in your mind on how rigged online slots are.

I still find it 'impossible' for 'any game' to 'not hit' at all. And i surely dont believe games are truely random. They are always within parameters; random within the box. Pre-designed algorithms which ensure a long term profit for the casino upon every spin.
well, sure; noone denies slots arent designed to favour the casino and that ultimately, the house always wins; that's why they arent set at a 100% RTP
 
For me to hit big on Chilli i had to bonus buy for a straight 45 minutes on 500 each. The gamble feature barely 'works' beyond 12 spins. I had 2 times a 24 spins feature on 500 euro bonus buy, but 24 spins are no guarantee to hit big. It is usually within the 8 to 12 and sometimes 16 free spins to hit big. Initial high multipliers upon start give a usual remaining 4 dead spins > 1 small or medium win followed with another streak of dead spins. For me to hit the initial 10k and later the 13k required me to bonus buy and hit gamble as much as i can. Prepare to lose if you go balistic like i did. Dont be greedy, try to take the 12 or 16 spins for granted. When a bonus buy drops with 4 symbols (12 spins) just take it. It's 8 out of 10 times that it will fail on the gamble feature upon first spin.

But the RTP seems to be highest when going max bonus buy; even if you take 8 spins for granted to initial payout after a bonus always seems best compared to lower buys. It's tough, my brother was watching my streak using remote desktop software, and we both witnessed a buying streak that would any streamer go vomit lol. I was prepared to lose; and i came out winning.

Really, dont do like i just posted above. But it's just my observings. The white rabbit game complete does nothing when going 1000 to 2000 euro bonus buys. I bought 5 straight 1 grand bonus buys, it never passed with a 12 rheel retrigger once. It was usually < 1000 or ~ 1500 win on avg which kind of set me straight at the end again.

And most imporant: know when to stop, know when to walk away. You could lose whatever you stake easily. My rule of thumb is that the bonus buys starts paying off or go equal after 5 times.
 
It is fun as long as you win yes. But when deposit after deposit after deposit brings you nowhere it kind of starts eating on you and all conspiracy theories start to live it's own life in your mind on how rigged online slots are.

I still find it 'impossible' for 'any game' to 'not hit' at all. And i surely dont believe games are truely random. They are always within parameters; random within the box. Pre-designed algorithms which ensure a long term profit for the casino upon every spin.

Every slot game will eventually make money for a casino, as will every table game. That's no secret.
 
:thumbsup: solid advice for anyone

Added; spend the money wiselely. I'm buying a Audi S5 today. This way it does'nt poor back into where i got it from.

Every slot game will eventually make money for a casino, as will every table game. That's no secret.

Casino's stating that every spin or every event is fully random, is debunked. It's like you have a ball that bouncing up and down in a box. It could never escape the inside of that box.
 
Added; spend the money wiselely. I'm buying a Audi S5 today. This way it does'nt poor back into where i got it from.



Casino's stating that every spin or every event is fully random, is debunked. It's like you have a ball that bouncing up and down in a box. It could never escape the inside of that box.

No, it really isnt debunked. By anyone. Including you.

If it is, please post evidence below :)
 
Ok - this thread is pretty much hijacked to beyond recognition. I need to shut this down while I move the non-topic posts elsewhere. I will reopen this when I am done.

Please don't hijack threads - instead, please say what you want to say and start new threads. It is time consuming moving posts, and difficult as well since some posts contain subject matter on topic and off.
 
Oh well,

After recieving the initial of 22k, i decided to play a bit more, and topped out at another 25k which i had set for withdrawl yesterday. So in barely 2 ~ 3 days timespan, i made 10 euro into 45.000 euro. Lmao.

I'm done with slots tho. ^
 
Oh well,

After recieving the initial of 22k, i decided to play a bit more, and topped out at another 25k which i had set for withdrawl yesterday. So in barely 2 ~ 3 days timespan, i made 10 euro into 45.000 euro. Lmao.

I'm done with slots tho. ^

But they are still rigged tho, right?
 
We will never know :D

I started to recieve emails from the Casino related to automaticly joined the Elite club, i.e a personal contact, a whatsapp number, a private phonenumber and all that, the same VIP threatment. Hell they even order food for you while playing online.
 
I think i posted this somewhere before.

The RTP on the game Chilli seems to be most in 'our favor' when buying bonus games on 500 euro a game. The trick is to actually push to either 16, 20 or 24 spins, which i succeeded more then 5 times by now. Having 24 spins on the highest bet (in my particuler casino) does'nt guarantee a big huge hefty win, but a few of those smaller ones could add up to the 25k i just did in a few hours. Now i am not saying go ahead and start pounding on 500 euro bonus buy games, but make sure to have bankroll and patience. I've bin swinging from 10k all the way up to the last bonus buy and come back at it, to finally have a striking hit of purple fullscreen symbols and what more. The most difficult part is getting past the gamble feature because that is the thing that will hurt your ass. You could fail up to 8 times getting past the 8 spins. You could get recked having 16 free spins and land back on 8. You could have 20 and get raped back to 12 in a attempt to 24 spins.

But when luck is on your side, and at some point, it will / has to, nothing really can go wrong and it does what it is supposed to do. Give some mf wins.

Tip: know when to stop. I withdrawled 22k the first day, 25k the second day. I kept money from the first day on my account, as a sort of security whenever the casino does something. But they are very relaxed and a withdrawl of 47k in barely 2 days was NO PROBLEM at all!

But be carefull man; playing for 5 hours is'nt good for the mind.

Edit:

Outdated URL

Here's your proof. :)
 

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I think i posted this somewhere before.

The RTP on the game Chilli seems to be most in 'our favor' when buying bonus games on 500 euro a game. The trick is to actually push to either 16, 20 or 24 spins, which i succeeded more then 5 times by now. Having 24 spins on the highest bet (in my particuler casino) does'nt guarantee a big huge hefty win, but a few of those smaller ones could add up to the 25k i just did in a few hours. Now i am not saying go ahead and start pounding on 500 euro bonus buy games, but make sure to have bankroll and patience. I've bin swinging from 10k all the way up to the last bonus buy and come back at it, to finally have a striking hit of purple fullscreen symbols and what more. The most difficult part is getting past the gamble feature because that is the thing that will hurt your ass. You could fail up to 8 times getting past the 8 spins. You could get recked having 16 free spins and land back on 8. You could have 20 and get raped back to 12 in a attempt to 24 spins.

But when luck is on your side, and at some point, it will / has to, nothing really can go wrong and it does what it is supposed to do. Give some mf wins.

Tip: know when to stop. I withdrawled 22k the first day, 25k the second day. I kept money from the first day on my account, as a sort of security whenever the casino does something. But they are very relaxed and a withdrawl of 47k in barely 2 days was NO PROBLEM at all!

But be carefull man; playing for 5 hours is'nt good for the mind.

Edit:

Outdated URL

Here's your proof. :)

That shows 5 withdrawals of nothing. Lol
 
Yes, that they are processed, the 5 batches of each 5k my friend.

But surely each one would show 5000 in the in/out, and your balance would drop by 5000 each time right?
 
But surely each one would show 5000 in the in/out, and your balance would drop by 5000 each time right?

Be assured, their system might work a bit different, but there's 2 transactions showing for both withdrawl and when the withdrawl is processed.

wjrgiwej.webp


It's usually within 24 hours before the actual transaction is being processed, so yeah. I'm not here as a joker pretending to won big. I know i wake up around saturday / sunday with a estimation of more then 40k extra on my account.
 
Oh well,

After recieving the initial of 22k, i decided to play a bit more, and topped out at another 25k which i had set for withdrawl yesterday. So in barely 2 ~ 3 days timespan, i made 10 euro into 45.000 euro. Lmao.

I'm done with slots tho. ^

Unbelievable.

In 8 years I've never cashed out more than £900 at any one time :laugh::rolleyes:

Well done:cheers:
 
I just did it again. Turned 2k into 22k. I am slowly thinking that this is more of a bug then just luck.

I am looking at a total of 60k in withdrawls over the last 3 days. This should alert any casino staff member by now lol. But it's a brand with a reputation and they never made a problem out of the 40k withdrawl. My gf watched me play all the time. I explained her the pattern that i was expecting and i was right.

No other game is currently hitting for the last 3 days as the game that i'm currently playing.

wipghjigwej.webp


I assume that games do get tested properly before being tossed in the wild, do they?
 
I just did it again. Turned 2k into 22k. I am slowly thinking that this is more of a bug then just luck.

I am looking at a total of 60k in withdrawls over the last 3 days. This should alert any casino staff member by now lol. But it's a brand with a reputation and they never made a problem out of the 40k withdrawl. My gf watched me play all the time. I explained her the pattern that i was expecting and i was right.

No other game is currently hitting for the last 3 days as the game that i'm currently playing.

View attachment 109225

I assume that games do get tested properly before being tossed in the wild, do they?

If I'm running cold I run cold on all games, no matter what I play/provider etc. The opposite happens very occasionally too where no matter what game I play on, I just hit bonus after bonus. I never push my luck on sessions like that though...I get to a respectable level of withdrawal vs money deposited and leg it before it's all taken back :laugh:
 

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