NEW SLOT Artic Treasure Adventure.... STAY COOL

[dunover]

Does that Hit take your RTP anywhere near where it supposed to be?

I agree with some of the posters - 400x Bet is nothing to be frowned upon but it's Piss Poor for 100 Spins at 10x. The highest win on that Slot was only achieved about 6 months ago and top top it off, there haven't been any BIG hits (Above 2000x) in about 2 - 3 months. Thats a pretty long time NOT to get a hit on a Slot with such variance IMPO.

Kudo's to you for your patience. I absolutely despise getting to a 'Top Feature Pick' and getting peanuts for it. I have also hit the 5 Keys on Moolah which in itself is rare and got peanuts too. You have probably made my mind up about playing that Slot

Nate

Yeah, my observations too. This archive of high multiple-stakes wins has to be taken with a pinch of salt when one considers the multitudes of players who must have churned through millions of spins between them in the last 3 months. Smoke and mirrors....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yeah, my observations too. This archive of high multiple-stakes wins has to be taken with a pinch of salt when one considers the multitudes of players who must have churned through millions of spins between them in the last 3 months. Smoke and mirrors....

Damn 3Dice and their transparency!

To hell with their real-time statistics for every single one of their games!

WE THE PLAYERS DEMAND MORE SECRECY!

I mean, seriously, unless you can point me in the general direction of any similar stats page offered by any other casino/software provider in the entire world, you do realise that you're comparing the 3Dice Zeitgeist with absolutely nothing whatsoever, and criticising it on that basis?

 

[dunover]

Damn 3Dice and their transparency!

To hell with their real-time statistics for every single one of their games!

WE THE PLAYERS DEMAND MORE SECRECY!

I mean, seriously, unless you can point me in the general direction of any similar stats page offered by any other casino/software provider in the entire world, you do realise that you're comparing the 3Dice Zeitgeist with absolutely nothing whatsoever, and criticising it on that basis?

I'm not criticizing it at all. Just bringing it into perspective from the players' POV.
As for 'secrecy' do you assent to having your user ID being displayed for all to see when you have a decent win? Because if you can opt out, and some would have, then the list is even more meaningless. All it demonstrates is feasible wins, which any player with an IQ not stamped on their shoes would work out anyway.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

All it demonstrates is feasible wins, which any player with an IQ not stamped on their shoes would work out anyway.

Ahhh yes, and that's why we're not still debating about what the maximum pay on IR outside of all five wilds in Wild Desire is, I guess? Perhaps the answer is stamped on our shoes

The 3Dice Zeitgeist, whilst not perfect, does represent more information being given to the players by the casino - who in this case also happen to be the software provider - than any other outfit sees fit to do. (Admittedly Galewind are better on the theoretical side of things, but they don't have anything that generates 'actual results' information like the Zeitgeist.)

I appreciate that you're bringing it into perspective from a player's POV, but let's remember that we're looking at something that no other software provider sees fit to offer in the first place - so we're starting from a pretty good place.

Also remember that working out a maximum pay isn't the whole story, the five wilds in Wild Desire for example is a massive maximum pay, but we all know how astoundingly rare it is - as a player it'd be more valuable to know what it does 'most of the time'.

The Zeitgeist offers two tracking mechanisms, all time highest pays (to see what a slot is truly capable of) and also top ten recent wins, which gives a far better idea of its 'day to day' performance.

Like I said, not perfect, but still a damn sight better than is the norm.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Does that Hit take your RTP anywhere near where it supposed to be?

Heading in the right direction is the kindest thing I could say about it

It'll all even out over time.

 

[Balthazar]

It'd be nice if Enzo can confirm, but for my money I reckon it's just like the bonus rounds on Enchanted Spins, where the reward is decided at the trigger and the player is revealing the result, rather than determining it - except in the case of Arctic the spins simply play out to what the RNG picked at the trigger rather than the player 'interactively' revealing it.

Actually Enzo did say a few months ago that each spin from the free spin rounds are "real" independent spins. That said, I've noticed from the screenshots here that the 100 X 10 seems to give a pretty bad return. £88 for £200 worth of spins is very poor.

 

[dunover]

Ahhh yes, and that's why we're not still debating about what the maximum pay on IR outside of all five wilds in Wild Desire is, I guess? Perhaps the answer is stamped on our shoes

The 3Dice Zeitgeist, whilst not perfect, does represent more information being given to the players by the casino - who in this case also happen to be the software provider - than any other outfit sees fit to do. (Admittedly Galewind are better on the theoretical side of things, but they don't have anything that generates 'actual results' information like the Zeitgeist.)

I appreciate that you're bringing it into perspective from a player's POV, but let's remember that we're looking at something that no other software provider sees fit to offer in the first place - so we're starting from a pretty good place.

Also remember that working out a maximum pay isn't the whole story, the five wilds in Wild Desire for example is a massive maximum pay, but we all know how astoundingly rare it is - as a player it'd be more valuable to know what it does 'most of the time'.

The Zeitgeist offers two tracking mechanisms, all time highest pays (to see what a slot is truly capable of) and also top ten recent wins, which gives a far better idea of its 'day to day' performance.

Like I said, not perfect, but still a damn sight better than is the norm.

I'm not sure I follow you there - I know and have told everybody who'll listen what the second highest IR prize is, the 5 wilds with Sarah on the 5x free spins.

I've also noticed some MG skins have biggest winners on them, proudly displayed even for slots they don't offer

I think the winner screenies section here is most useful TBH.

Anyway, congrats for your 3 entries on the roll in your screenie.....

 

[Balthazar]

Actually Enzo did say a few months ago that each spin from the free spin rounds are "real" independent spins. .

Here's the source:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...e-spin-options-in-games-does-it-matter.54883/

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm not sure I follow you there - I know and have told everybody who'll listen what the second highest IR prize is, the 5 wilds with Sarah on the 5x free spins.

I've also noticed some MG skins have biggest winners on them, proudly displayed even for slots they don't offer

I think the winner screenies section here is most useful TBH.

Anyway, congrats for your 3 entries on the roll in your screenie.....

That's the point though, there's absolutely no proof that the 5 wilds with Sarah in the 5x free spins round is actually on the paytable, it's entirely theoretical and we don't know that it exists. How long has that slot been out now? You'd think we might have seen a screenshot of it by now, since the five wilds in Wild Desire has been captured a few times.....

As for the biggest winners on some MG skins, if they're just cash values then they're totally meaningless, as a win expressed as a multiplication of stake is all that really matters. (Plus the fact you see results from slots that aren't on the books at the casino in question suggest they're some sort of central win feed, whereas at least we know that the 3Dice Zeitgeist is only reporting on a single casino.)

 

[dunover]

Here's the source:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...e-spin-options-in-games-does-it-matter.54883/

Well, what we need is a few more Chopley-type screenies of the 100x10x freespins before we form an opinion collectively - we can't base it on one 44% round in isolation, but I'd wager that we see many more like it and very few that come out in excess of 100% RTP. So, based on your link above Chopley was unlucky; with a few more rounds posted we can see if it really just isn't 'eye candy'..

 

[dunover]

That's the point though, there's absolutely no proof that the 5 wilds with Sarah in the 5x free spins round is actually on the paytable, it's entirely theoretical and we don't know that it exists. How long has that slot been out now? You'd think we might have seen a screenshot of it by now, since the five wilds in Wild Desire has been captured a few times.....

As for the biggest winners on some MG skins, if they're just cash values then they're totally meaningless, as a win expressed as a multiplication of stake is all that really matters. (Plus the fact you see results from slots that aren't on the books at the casino in question suggest they're some sort of central win feed, whereas at least we know that the 3Dice Zeitgeist is only reporting on a single casino.)

Well, IF you believe the reels (and even though we know on MG they are just videos to represent the RNG award) it should be possible. Remember the pseudo-reels aren't necessary as they aren't stopped individually, but they should still be accurate in that the graphics/symbols accurately represent the pay table awards. On all 5 reels you CAN get Sarah/wild in a paying position. If this win is impossible (i.e. the value of it is not present in the pool of RNG awards) the MG are guilty of serious misrepresentation.....maybe we need to ask them if you know a contact.

On your second paragraph, point taken.

 

[Balthazar]

Well, what we need is a few more Chopley-type screenies of the 100x10x freespins before we form an opinion collectively - we can't base it on one 44% round in isolation, but I'd wager that we see many more like it and very few that come out in excess of 100% RTP. So, based on your link above Chopley was unlucky; with a few more rounds posted we can see if it really just isn't 'eye candy'..

I realized something after writing my last comment. The base game RTP on Artic is not good (in fact, it sucks) and Chopley's got 100 spins of the "base game RTP". We have to consider the result of the free spins themselves for the overall TRTP of the slot. The slot doesn't have a 95% RTP on the base game + additional RTP from the free spins. So it's very possible that the base game RTP is in the ~70%-75% range, which would explain the results of most of those free spins rounds.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Here's the source:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...e-spin-options-in-games-does-it-matter.54883/

Interesting, that totally doesn't chime with my experience on Arctic over 24K spins.

To me the rounds are absolutely weighted according to the scatters, to the extent that I've got pretty good at predicting what a three scatters trigger will do when compared to a four scatters trigger.

Generally speaking it really doesn't matter what number of spins and what multiplier you get on a three scatters trigger, chances are it'll pay low relative to your stake. (Yes it can pay big on a three scatters trigger, but it usually behaves in an 'expected' manner.)

However on a four scatters trigger, it generally doesn't matter how crap your number of spins are and/or how low the multiplier is, the spins will normally 'seek out' enough 4OAKs/5OAKs to make a decent result for the round. (For example in the 'bad' screenshot I posted a couple of pages ago of 43x stake, yes that's a poor result for a four scatters trigger but it'd be a decent result for a three scatters trigger, irrespective of spins and multiplier.)

If the free spins were entirely independent random entities you'd absolutely expect the higher number of spins and/or higher multiplier bonus rounds to consistently pay more than rounds with lower number of spins and/or multipliers, but in my experience it's determined by the triggering scatters far more than any other factor.

Maybe I'm missing something here, it'd be cool if Enzo could explain how the free spins versus multipliers versus scatters actually work mathematically on this slot.

 

[Balthazar]

If the free spins were entirely independent random entities you'd absolutely expect the higher number of spins and/or higher multiplier bonus rounds to consistently pay more than rounds with lower number of spins and/or multipliers, but in my experience it's determined by the triggering scatters far more than any other factor.

Like I said before, I don't think we have a big enough sample of 4 scatters triggers to conclude that a 4 scatters pays less (or the exact same) as a 3 scatters trigger. We tend to notice the result of a 4 scatters trigger a lot more than a mere 3 scatters so when a 3 scatters is crap, we forget about it but when we get a 4 scatters and it's crap, we think it's rigged.

Let's not forget that most 3 scatters are crap, and adding more spins wouldn't necessarily make them better. Usually in a free spins round, all you need is 1 or 2 "big hits". You might, or might not, get any big hit with additional spins.

 

[tommy34]

thanks guys,nice thread...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Like I said before, I don't think we have a big enough sample of 4 scatters triggers to conclude that a 4 scatters pay less (or the exact same) as a 3 scatters trigger. We tend to notice the result of a 4 scatters trigger a lot more than a mere 3 scatters so when a 3 scatters is crap, we forget about it but when we get a 4 scatters and it's crap, we think it's rigged.

Let's not forget that most 3 scatters are crap, and adding more spins wouldn't necessarily make them better. Usually in a free spins round, all you need is 1 or 2 "big hits". You might, or might not, get any big hit with additional spins.

I appreciate that Balth but what I'm getting at here is that I think there are ranges of pays for three scatters, four scatters and five scatters triggers - and for example four scatters will never go below a certain amount when statistically you would expect it to do so, and three scatters are often lower paying than you'd expect them to be relative to the number of spins and multipliers that can be achieved.

I agree we don't have any real data at this point though, TBH I wish I'd recorded decent stats for my recent Arctic Marathon - but next time I really set about it I will do so.

Let me be clear here, I'm not saying I have a problem with the randomness and fairness of the slot, just that my feeling is the result of the round is determined at the trigger (as we know 3Dice's pick-me round slots work), rather than through 'natural free spins'.

Also, how do we reconcile two different factors here? Enzo has already said that 3Dice's pick-me rounds are pre-determined, but what we have here is a pick-me round with a free spins round following on from that, I'm not sure how you'd tie those two things up mathematically.

Plus of course, we're assuming that there's a consistent reelstrip layout used for every feature trigger, WMS slots for example explicitly state that they use different reels for free spins rounds.

I have to say, this one has made me curious.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've emailed 3Dice Support about this - hopefully Enzo will be along in due course to silence our speculation with facts

 

[Balthazar]

I appreciate that Balth but what I'm getting at here is that I think there are ranges of pays for three scatters, four scatters and five scatters triggers - and for example four scatters will never go below a certain amount when statistically you would expect it to do so, and three scatters are often lower paying than you'd expect them to be relative to the number of spins and multipliers that can be achieved.

I agree we don't have any real data at this point though, TBH I wish I'd recorded decent stats for my recent Arctic Marathon - but next time I really set about it I will do so.

Let me be clear here, I'm not saying I have a problem with the randomness and fairness of the slot, just that my feeling is the result of the round is determined at the trigger (as we know 3Dice's pick-me round slots work), rather than through 'natural free spins'.

Also, how do we reconcile two different factors here? Enzo has already said that 3Dice's pick-me rounds are pre-determined, but what we have here is a pick-me round with a free spins round following on from that, I'm not sure how you'd tie those two things up mathematically.

Plus of course, we're assuming that there's a consistent reelstrip layout used for every feature trigger, WMS slots for example explicitly state that they use different reels for free spins rounds.

I have to say, this one has made me curious.

When I joined this forum, I was convinced that the RNG decided of what you win and then expressed this result on the reels (and that the free spins results were pre-determined at the triggering spins). Then later, after seeing evidences, I finally accepted that the reel strips are "real" and the RNG stops each one of them randomly, including in the free spins. I was OK with that...but then Enzo declared that the pick-me's are pre-determined which added to the confusion and that's why I wasn't happy with the whole thing.

 

[Sovietsky]

I'm not sure I follow you there - I know and have told everybody who'll listen what the second highest IR prize is, the 5 wilds with Sarah on the 5x free spins.

Wouldn't it be Troys free spin with 6x multiplier (+2 wilds) be the second highest prize?

 

[dunover]

Wouldn't it be Troys free spin with 6x multiplier (+2 wilds) be the second highest prize?

No, because the 6x multiplier would only affect SOME combos even if the two ravens landed in positions other than the wilds/sarahs AND on different reels. The 5x multiplier affects all 32 doubled and one single Sarahs =64+1 =65 x 5 = 325 sarahs at base stake plus 1 x 5 wilds.

 

[3Dice]

In short, and to illustrate how similar they are :

spin (free or paid - no difference)
server generates uniformly distributed random reel stop positions.
server sends these to the client
client reveals reels and pays

bonus game.
server generates uniformly distributed random outcomes.
server sends these to the client
client reveals results and pays

The biggest difference between freespins and a bonusgame is that freespins have to re-use the front-mechanism, whereas a bonus game has its own rules and pays. (you could use alternate reels in freespins - but no AGL slots do that). So while it is easy to define a bonus game that has no zero-pay outcome, you can never give the same guarantee for a free-spin-bonus.

For the arctic bonus game (and e.g. fortune falls, coral clams) - the logic works like this :
server generates uniformly distributed random outcome (in this case the 'pay' is a number of freespins and multiplier)
server sends that to the client
client shows freespin intro animation
server generates uniformly distributed random reel stop positions for the first freespin.
server sends these to the client
client displays reels and pay for first freespin.
(last three steps repeat for each freespin).

So, if you yank out your internet cable half-way during freespins - the server doesnt know yet what your freespins will amount to. The freespins that you haven't played don't have their reel stop positions generated yet.

Cheers,

Enzo

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thanks for that Enzo, and what you're saying there seems pretty straightforward.

However, just for absolute clarity can I please confirm the following:

1) The reels are the same in free spins as they are in normal spins?

2) All reel combinations are possible results in free spins, irrespective of the number of scatters that trigger a free spins bonus round and the spins and multiplier thus awarded?

3) The number of free spins and multiplier awarded are pre-determined at the round trigger and the player is just revealing it with the picks?

4) Each free spin thereafter is an independent random event, generated on a spin-by-spin basis?

5) Each free spin in the top paying 100 spins at 10x pays bonus round is identical to a normal spin in the base game, in terms of the probability of any given spin result occurring? (And indeed, any free spin in any bonus round at any multiplier is the same as a normal spin in the base game?)

So for example, is the following scenario possible?

------------

Player triggers a bonus round with three scatters, hits spins and multipliers to get to the top level but doesn't kiss the Ice Queen, free spins are started at 9x pays.

As part of this bonus round, all five wilds drop in for a pay of £450 on a 20p triggering spin (a penny per line), this would be a 2250x stake pay for that spin alone, on a three scatters trigger. (It'd actually be quite a bit more than 2250x because all those wilds would make lots of other wins, but we'll stick with 2250x stake for simplicity's sake.)

There are no 'controls' or 'restrictions' on what the rest of the spins for the bonus round pay and there is no 'forward planning', there's nothing stopping another high paying 5OAK dropping in, there are no 'caps' on the bonus round? A three scatters trigger could theoretically pay 3000x stake, or 4000x stake, or 5000x stake?

------------

If everything that is stated above is true, does it therefore follow that over time we would expect to see that bonus rounds triggered with a higher number of spins at a higher multiplier, will pay more than bonus rounds triggered with a lesser number of spins at a lower multiplier?

And following on from that, is it therefore correct to state that the only determining factor on the average pay of a bonus round is the number of free spins and multiplier awarded, and that the number of scatters that triggers the round is irrelevant?

For example, if we repeated the following bonus rounds a million times, which would we expect to have paid the best overall?

1) A three scatters trigger awards 12 free spins at 5x pays.

2) A four scatters trigger awards 12 free spins at 4x pays.

Those are just two examples (and both possible results), what I'm getting at is, based on the information above, are we are correct to surmise that the ONLY deciding factor in the average pay of a bonus round is the number of spins and multiplier achieved - and that the number of scatters triggering the round is irrelevant?

I appreciate that variance will play a part in this, but after enough bonus rounds, we'd definitely see those with more spins at a higher multiplier paying the most?

I also appreciate that four or five scatters give a better chance of kissing the Ice Queen, but once the Queen is 'missed' on a bonus round (more than one mis-pick on three scatters, two mis-picks on four scatters and three mis-picks on five scatters mean it is then impossible to kiss the Queen) - it should be entirely down to the random free spins that determine the average pay, based on the number of spins and the multiplier awarded?

 

[3Dice]

Thanks for that Enzo, and what you're saying there seems pretty straightforward.

However, just for absolute clarity can I please confirm the following:

1) The reels are the same in free spins as they are in normal spins?
2) All reel combinations are possible results in free spins, irrespective of the number of scatters that trigger a free spins bonus round and the spins and multiplier thus awarded?
3) The number of free spins and multiplier awarded are pre-determined at the round trigger and the player is just revealing it with the picks?
4) Each free spin thereafter is an independent random event, generated on a spin-by-spin basis?
5) Each free spin in the top paying 100 spins at 10x pays bonus round is identical to a normal spin in the base game, in terms of the probability of any given spin result occurring? (And indeed, any free spin in any bonus round at any multiplier is the same as a normal spin in the base game?)

yes on all 5 those questions.

So for example, is the following scenario possible?

------------

Player triggers a bonus round with three scatters, hits spins and multipliers to get to the top level but doesn't kiss the Ice Queen, free spins are started at 9x pays.

As part of this bonus round, all five wilds drop in for a pay of £450 on a 20p triggering spin (a penny per line), this would be a 2250x stake pay for that spin alone, on a three scatters trigger. (It'd actually be quite a bit more than 2250x because all those wilds would make lots of other wins, but we'll stick with 2250x stake for simplicity's sake.)

There are no 'controls' or 'restrictions' on what the rest of the spins for the bonus round pay and there is no 'forward planning', there's nothing stopping another high paying 5OAK dropping in, there are no 'caps' on the bonus round? A three scatters trigger could theoretically pay 3000x stake, or 4000x stake, or 5000x stake?

no caps, no planning, no restrictions whatsoever. The reels in freespins are the same reels - the paytable is the same - and all stop positions of the reels have the same natural uniform odds.

If everything that is stated above is true, does it therefore follow that over time we would expect to see that bonus rounds triggered with a higher number of spins at a higher multiplier, will pay more than bonus rounds triggered with a lesser number of spins at a lower multiplier?

yes.

And following on from that, is it therefore correct to state that the only determining factor on the average pay of a bonus round is the number of free spins and multiplier awarded, and that the number of scatters that triggers the round is irrelevant?

100x10 is 100x10 - no matter how many scatters you needed to get it. Hitting 100x10 on 3, 4 or 5 scatters yields exactly the same average result. (but ofcourse, with 5 scatters you'll be giving more kisses).

For example, if we repeated the following bonus rounds a million times, which would we expect to have paid the best overall?

1) A three scatters trigger awards 12 free spins at 5x pays.

2) A four scatters trigger awards 12 free spins at 4x pays.

I think you meant 4x in 1 ? or 5x in 2 ?

again - same multiplier/spins = same average result.

Those are just two examples (and both possible results), what I'm getting at is, based on the information above, are we are correct to surmise that the ONLY deciding factor in the average pay of a bonus round is the number of spins and multiplier achieved - and that the number of scatters triggering the round is irrelevant?

I appreciate that variance will play a part in this, but after enough bonus rounds, we'd definitely see those with more spins at a higher multiplier paying the most?

I also appreciate that four or five scatters give a better chance of kissing the Ice Queen, but once the Queen is 'missed' on a bonus round (more than one mis-pick on three scatters, two mis-picks on four scatters and three mis-picks on five scatters mean it is then impossible to kiss the Queen) - it should be entirely down to the random free spins that determine the average pay, based on the number of spins and the multiplier awarded?

yes

Cheers,

Enzo

 

[dunover]

I have to laugh, seeing Chopley treading very carefully around the foil-hat trigger zone. But I do know why he asks, and it's an awkward situation when you are NOT a hatter, but hours and hours of experience shows you results that definitely suggest something other than the black-and-white theories.

Interesting topic.

 

[cpdnd31]

Thank Gosh I was already in hospital when I was reading this thread. It made my head hurt. Guys can we break this down into what we do know for truth. I got lost. Sorry could be the meds too. LOL

 

[bvu2011]

I have to laugh, seeing Chopley treading very carefully around the foil-hat trigger zone. But I do know why he asks, and it's an awkward situation when you are NOT a hatter, but hours and hours of experience shows you results that definitely suggest something other than the black-and-white theories.

Interesting topic.

What really gets me is why should it be treaded carefully, we are the customers, we have the hours or years of experience and if something is not right it should be looked into (lest not forget our investment and/or monetary value) It should not be taken as an attack or with a dissonance by its owner, but objectively for improvement. What gets me is that this slot was identified by its customers as high variance. The casino tagged it as low variance which is seen in this thread, then somewhere along the line the customers noticed the slot had been changed to high variance...I would like to know why and when did this happen...Was the customer right?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well if Enzo says that how it works then that's good enough for me, but it's interesting to see how I managed to reach such a polar opposite conclusion from my 24K spins in real.

Next time I have a proper extended session on Arctic I'll record some round stats, not because I don't believe Enzo, but because I'm curious to try and understand how I reached the (flawed) conclusion that I did - because there's obviously some sort of psychological factor at play, plus it would appear that 24K spins isn't enough of a sample size either.

Thanks to Enzo for setting the record straight here at CM off the back of me raising a support ticket through their email system

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Guys can we break this down into what we do know for truth. I got lost.

3Dice pick-me rounds are pre-determined at the feature trigger (albeit fairly and randomly, you're just uncovering the result), but every free spin in a free spins bonus round is an independent randomly generated event.

 

[bvu2011]

3Dice pick-me rounds are pre-determined at the feature trigger (albeit fairly and randomly, you're just uncovering the result), but every free spin in a free spins bonus round is an independent randomly generated event.

So either way it is pre-determined? The end results will still be the same? Or the player just hopes that when they hit the bonus round that it is the same time the game generates decent line hits? just wondering.. And, does that answer the question of why it takes so many spins to hit 100 x10 in the bonus?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So either way it is pre-determined? The end results will still be the same? Just wondering...

Well no, imagine these two scenarios.

1) You trigger a bonus round on Enchanted Spins and then kill your internet connection. Upon reconnecting to the casino you replay the bonus round and you get the same pick-me result that you would have got if you'd just played the round out normally, because the entire round result was generated by the server at the trigger.

2) You trigger a bonus round on Arctic Adventure, reveal the multiplier and free spins amount (which are pre-determined anyway), and then kill your internet connection before the free spins start. Upon reconnecting to the casino you get your free spins, but they'd be different free spins than if you'd allowed the round to play out normally, because the server generates each free spins independently and randomly from the others.

That's how I'm reading it anyway, hopefully Enzo can confirm.

 

[bvu2011]

Well if Enzo says that how it works then that's good enough for me, but it's interesting to see how I managed to reach such a polar opposite conclusion from my 24K spins in real.

Next time I have a proper extended session on Arctic I'll record some round stats, not because I don't believe Enzo, but because I'm curious to try and understand how I reached the (flawed) conclusion that I did - because there's obviously some sort of psychological factor at play, plus it would appear that 24K spins isn't enough of a sample size either.

Thanks to Enzo for setting the record straight here at CM off the back of me raising a support ticket through their email system

I am sorry Chopley, but I do not agree with you being the only one who has seen this event, but just the only one to confront it. So it would be more than one customer and more than 24lk spins as a sample.

 

[bvu2011]

Well no, imagine these two scenarios.

1) You trigger a bonus round on Enchanted Spins and then kill your internet connection. Upon reconnecting to the casino you replay the bonus round and you get the same pick-me result that you would have got if you'd just played the round out normally, because the entire round result was generated by the server at the trigger.

2) You trigger a bonus round on Arctic Adventure, reveal the multiplier and free spins amount (which are pre-determined anyway), and then kill your internet connection before the free spins start. Upon reconnecting to the casino you get your free spins, but they'd be different free spins than if you'd allowed the round to play out normally, because the server generates each free spins independently and randomly from the others.

That's how I'm reading it anyway, hopefully Enzo can confirm.

Then that would bring about another issue. What if the same thing happened in real and the bonus round froze and you were unable to replay those spins...Then what would happen? Hence, this has happened to me before playing arctic in real and I was unable to replay my bonus round, the casino had to play it for me, however, I never got to see it played? I will have to say though I did get to see a screenshot of the play in the casinos global chat, but with a balance of T$556549 not exact and one that did not reflect my actual bonus round nor my personal real balance lol

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Then that would bring about another issue. What if the same thing happened in real and the bonus round froze and you were unable to replay those spins...Then what would happen? Hence, this has happened to me before playing arctic in real and I was unable to replay my bonus round, the casino had to play it for me, however, I never got to see it played?

I would expect the 3Dice replay feature to pick up from wherever you were up to when the free spins crapped out.

Every spin up to that point is a known and completed event, every spin still to come is a random and unknown event.

What exactly were the circumstances when you couldn't complete your bonus round? What did 3Dice say?

 

[bvu2011]

I would expect the 3Dice replay feature to pick up from wherever you were up to when the free spins crapped out.

Every spin up to that point is a known and completed event, every spin still to come is a random and unknown event.

What exactly were the circumstances when you couldn't complete your bonus round? What did 3Dice say?

Three bonus rounds in three different games froze on me, it was said to be caused by the new game that had came out during that time, Kyoko. I did get to replay one of the bonus rounds and the other two had to be played by the casino.

 

[dunover]

Well no, imagine these two scenarios.

1) You trigger a bonus round on Enchanted Spins and then kill your internet connection. Upon reconnecting to the casino you replay the bonus round and you get the same pick-me result that you would have got if you'd just played the round out normally, because the entire round result was generated by the server at the trigger.

2) You trigger a bonus round on Arctic Adventure, reveal the multiplier and free spins amount (which are pre-determined anyway), and then kill your internet connection before the free spins start. Upon reconnecting to the casino you get your free spins, but they'd be different free spins than if you'd allowed the round to play out normally, because the server generates each free spins independently and randomly from the others.
That's how I'm reading it anyway, hopefully Enzo can confirm.

Mmmmm.....

 

[bvu2011]

Mmmmm.....

lol..

 

[dunover]

I am sorry Chopley, but I do not agree with you being the only one who has seen this event, but just the only one to confront it. So it would be more than one customer and more than 24lk spins as a sample.

There is the possibility that we have overlooked the RTP factor, how it is proportioned in normal play and bonus rounds - could this be what people are noticing?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There is the possibility that we have overlooked the RTP factor, how it is proportioned in normal play and bonus rounds - could this be what people are noticing?

I think there's something we're missing here, but I can't put my finger on it yet.

I was playing Arctic last night and I hit a four scatters trigger, shitty spins and multiplier, but a four scatters trigger.

If I'd triggered the same spins and multiplier from a three scatters trigger I'd have been inclined to leave my PC to go for a piss and come back to the woeful result, but those 24K spins had taught me that four scatters always pays a bit of something.

Because I'm a bit sad like this, and because I miss doing my YouTube channel, I did a commentary for the spins in my head, imagining I was doing it for the channel.

Dead spin after dead spin, and my commentary was running along the lines of 'I know this looks shit, but it's going to have to chuck something in here, because it's a four scatters trigger, just watch it pull in a 5OAK in the next couple of spins. Three scatters trigger I'd write it off, this is a four scatters trigger, it's going to do something' - AND LO AND BEHOLD, literally two spins later it drops in 5OAK on Queens with a wild to make a nice win with the free spins multiplier added into the mix, and the 'expected round value' was achieved. (Now admittedly it went over what I was expecting it 'had' to do, but I still can't help but feel there's a minimum threshold that four scatters 'has' to pay.)

I'm going to have a play around with this slot and record some stats, I'm not saying I don't believe Enzo (I've got a 3Dice slot rolling in real money mode as I type this, I trust the software), but I still think there's a piece of a puzzle that we're missing here.

At this point however it should be noted that I don't have any actual data, just a 'feeling', and a 'feeling' isn't data. It's also going to take a LOOOOONG time to get a statistically significant number of four scatters results (and you can forget about five scatters), so this may be a bit a slow burner side project like my 300,000+ spin Starburst adventure was.

 

[bvu2011]

I think there's something we're missing here, but I can't put my finger on it yet.

I was playing Arctic last night and I hit a four scatters trigger, shitty spins and multiplier, but a four scatters trigger.

If I'd triggered the same spins and multiplier from a three scatters trigger I'd have been inclined to leave my PC to go for a piss and come back to the woeful result, but those 24K spins had taught me that four scatters always pays a bit of something.

Because I'm a bit sad like this, and because I miss doing my YouTube channel, I did a commentary for the spins in my head, imagining I was doing it for the channel.

Dead spin after dead spin, and my commentary was running along the lines of 'I know this looks shit, but it's going to have to chuck something in here, because it's a four scatters trigger, just watch it pull in a 5OAK in the next couple of spins. Three scatters trigger I'd write it off, this is a four scatters trigger, it's going to do something' - AND LO AND BEHOLD, literally two spins later it drops in 5OAK on Queens with a wild to make a nice win with the free spins multiplier added into the mix, and the 'expected round value' was achieved. (Now admittedly it went over what I was expecting it 'had' to do, but I still can't help but feel there's a minimum threshold that four scatters 'has' to pay.)

I'm going to have a play around with this slot and record some stats, I'm not saying I don't believe Enzo (I've got a 3Dice slot rolling in real money mode as I type this, I trust the software), but I still think there's a piece of a puzzle that we're missing here.

At this point however it should be noted that I don't have any actual data, just a 'feeling', and a 'feeling' isn't data. It's also going to take a LOOOOONG time to get a statistically significant number of four scatters results (and you can forget about five scatters), so this may be a bit a slow burner side project like my 300,000+ spin Starburst adventure was.

Good luck and have fun!! lol

 

[dunover]

I think there's something we're missing here, but I can't put my finger on it yet.

I was playing Arctic last night and I hit a four scatters trigger, shitty spins and multiplier, but a four scatters trigger.

If I'd triggered the same spins and multiplier from a three scatters trigger I'd have been inclined to leave my PC to go for a piss and come back to the woeful result, but those 24K spins had taught me that four scatters always pays a bit of something.

Because I'm a bit sad like this, and because I miss doing my YouTube channel, I did a commentary for the spins in my head, imagining I was doing it for the channel.

Dead spin after dead spin, and my commentary was running along the lines of 'I know this looks shit, but it's going to have to chuck something in here, because it's a four scatters trigger, just watch it pull in a 5OAK in the next couple of spins. Three scatters trigger I'd write it off, this is a four scatters trigger, it's going to do something' - AND LO AND BEHOLD, literally two spins later it drops in 5OAK on Queens with a wild to make a nice win with the free spins multiplier added into the mix, and the 'expected round value' was achieved. (Now admittedly it went over what I was expecting it 'had' to do, but I still can't help but feel there's a minimum threshold that four scatters 'has' to pay.)

I'm going to have a play around with this slot and record some stats, I'm not saying I don't believe Enzo (I've got a 3Dice slot rolling in real money mode as I type this, I trust the software), but I still think there's a piece of a puzzle that we're missing here.

At this point however it should be noted that I don't have any actual data, just a 'feeling', and a 'feeling' isn't data. It's also going to take a LOOOOONG time to get a statistically significant number of four scatters results (and you can forget about five scatters), so this may be a bit a slow burner side project like my 300,000+ spin Starburst adventure was.

Lol.....

Right, there is nothing to stop the program having a minimum value total win for 4 scatters spins AND picking random wins - the reels are the same, the wins are the same, but who says the 'pool' can't be changed in order to achieve this? Not against any rules and the slot still pays its TRTP over time. This is in effect what Bruce Lee does on WMS isn't it? On the 20 free spins that come round about every time a politician tells the truth, due to the 'loaded' reels on 3,4,5 if you work it out the slot has to pay at least xxx.x for the 20 spins round, right?
On this 3Dice slot, instead of having the 'loading' visible on the reels like BL, the loading is 'invisible' in the pool of values......
What do you reckon?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This slot continues to kick me when I'm down, latest lifetime running stats in real play.

26724 spins
*
average bet .21 per spin
*
RTP 85.77%

Now in all fairness I have been comped twice this month by 3Dice as a result of my awful run on it, but I'm still something like 10% adrift of T-RTP after some 26,000 spins.

Also, my four scatters theory isn't looking too clever at the moment either.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This. Fucking. Slot.

As Jared said - 'ouch'.

30,000 spins, an RTP of 83.18%, it's actually going lower the more I spin!

I'm a relative newcomer to online slots, just over five years now, but I'm absolutely comfortable with chucking not thousands, but tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of spins through a single slot once it gets onto my radar.

I swear I've never hit anything like this bastard thing before - you either land a top-tier 5OAK with a decent multiplier in a free spins round, or you'll never see the right side of 90% (or less!) RTP IMO. (Even Bruce Lee will drop a 20 free spins round eventually if you club away at him enough.)

The 3Dice Zeitgeist is fairly informative in this regard, if you look at the all-time high scores, Arctic has managed to land itself right up there with Tut and Moolah in terms of massive all time wins (2132x stake is the 'smallest' win in the all time top ten), despite having only been live since October last year - this is either a quiet contender for one seriously high variance bastard slot (even by 3Dice's standards), or I've been massively unlucky on it. (Personally I think it's bizarre that they still peg Super Suits + as 'Very High' and Arctic as just 'High'.)

I'm now fully 12% adrift from T-RTP on this slot after just shy of 30,000 spins, christ knows what it'll take to pull this one around.

(I should state for the record that Jared did add a decent comp to my account without my asking for it during this chat, this now makes three comps on the trot after an Arctic kicking. Obviously it's not coming close to replacing my losses, but the positive CS aspect of it is appreciated.)

 

[bvu2011]

Crazy, thanks for your posts chopley.:notworthy But with other things that have been acknowledged, I highly doubt this means anything!

 

[bvu2011]

This. Fucking. Slot.

As Jared said - 'ouch'.

30,000 spins, an RTP of 83.18%, it's actually going lower the more I spin!

I'm a relative newcomer to online slots, just over five years now, but I'm absolutely comfortable with chucking not thousands, but tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of spins through a single slot once it gets onto my radar.

I swear I've never hit anything like this bastard thing before - you either land a top-tier 5OAK with a decent multiplier in a free spins round, or you'll never see the right side of 90% (or less!) RTP IMO. (Even Bruce Lee will drop a 20 free spins round eventually if you club away at him enough.)

The 3Dice Zeitgeist is fairly informative in this regard, if you look at the all-time high scores, Arctic has managed to land itself right up there with Tut and Moolah in terms of massive all time wins (2132x stake is the 'smallest' win in the all time top ten), despite having only been live since October last year - this is either a quiet contender for one seriously high variance bastard slot (even by 3Dice's standards), or I've been massively unlucky on it. (Personally I think it's bizarre that they still peg Super Suits + as 'Very High' and Arctic as just 'High'.)

I'm now fully 12% adrift from T-RTP on this slot after just shy of 30,000 spins, christ knows what it'll take to pull this one around.

(I should state for the record that Jared did add a decent comp to my account without my asking for it during this chat, this now makes three comps on the trot after an Arctic kicking. Obviously it's not coming close to replacing my losses, but the positive CS aspect of it is appreciated.)

View attachment 40424

Nice to hear they comped you. For that many spins and rtp I would say something is in order if not an explanation. But I am biased just to be honest. Nothing will ever change unless someone changes it. Many people have lost on this slot, over and over. And many have won, especially when wagering higher amounts.

And personally, I always found zeit to be misleading, but again thats my opinion. I remember my name being on there alot ONE TIME lol and people thought I was hitting big but I was low rolling hitting 5OAK's for like $30 etc. which is good, but not as good as people thought!!! And after my stats showed over 7.5k in deposits, my rtp was only 90%..but oh well

And wow at posting chat scripts, I have some of those lol

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Finally.

And I now have something new to add to the 1000x or better thread

1418x stake, 24 free spins at 8x pays - three scatters trigger. £284 from a 20p spin.

The vast majority of that came from the winline you can see here, the dude fishing down from the bottom left up to the top right, with a wild in there which doubles, and then has the 8x multiplier applied. (£15 x 2 = £30 x8 = £240.)

That win alone represents 1200x of the 1418x pay.

It's taken over 30,000 spins to land this though. Plus it should be noted that I hit this off the comp that Jared added to my account earlier in the evening, which just goes to show how a little bit of decent CS can go a long way.

Also, having put my 'analysis head' on, I do concur that all spins on this slot are equal, so every feature with a high multiplier does have the potential to pay very big.

And make no mistake, 1418x stake is a properly big win, definitely up in my top ten all time wins of ever playing online I would say.

 

[Nate]

Not a bad hit!

So does that put you ahead in terms of Cash spent and RTP?

Nate

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Not a bad hit!

So does that put you ahead in terms of Cash spent and RTP?

Nate

Nope, still well behind the curve on this slot, although that hit has repaired a chunk of the damage.

I asked Jared for my stats again on this slot and they're now:

30531 spins, 87.69% RTP

Make no mistake though, if we accept that Enzo's explanation of how this slot works is true (and I do, which is why I've continued to lump away at the bastard thing), the pay potential of it is really quite massive.

If the free spins are indeed 'natural' and 'unconstrained', then a couple of the high paying 5OAKs in the 100 free spins at 10x pays round could easily launch it into 5000-6000x stake or higher territory once the rest of the spins had been added in. (The Zeitgeist reports the current best hit achieved as being 4366x stake.)

Actually hitting that combo is the trick though, of course.......

 

[Sovietsky]

If you get 100 free spins and 10x multiplayer is it retriggerable like RTG's Rain Dance?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If you get 100 free spins and 10x multiplayer is it retriggerable like RTG's Rain Dance?

No retriggers, but 2/3/4/5 scatters do pay again at 2x/5x/50x/200x stake and are multiplied by the free spins multiplier.

So on a 20p spin, five scatters at 10x pays would award £400 (200x stake x10 = 2000x stake).

 

[bowlingbob]

No retriggers, but 2/3/4/5 scatters do pay again at 2x/5x/50x/200x stake and are multiplied by the free spins multiplier.

So on a 20p spin, five scatters at 10x pays would award £400 (200x stake x10 = 2000x stake).

I'm curious with all the stats you've collected on this slot and over 30k spins what is your longest stretch without seeing a bonus? I've had a session in real play where it went well over 1200 spins without a feature then hit feature nearly missing kissing the queen by 1 pick then went on another tear of going 1k spins without feature. I should add this was still when the slot was listed as medium variance lol.