Mr Casinomeister, has a bad casino ever turned good?

[RikkiGT-R]

Casinos appear to be continually added to the rogue list over time, and apparently there is always a chance for redemption. But is the reverse genuinely possible?
Has a Rogue casino ever cleaned up it's ways and become accredited?

 

[Simmo!]

Interesting question!

You can do some research here by the way:

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It's quite interesting what the past looks like This was the first (archived) rogues list from 2003:

Rogue Casinos:
1cnp Casino
32red*
Angelciti Group
Arcada Casino
Bringmeluck Casino
Californiablackjack Casino
Cashmybet.com
Casinobar
Casinocortez
Casino of the Sun
Casinoonair
Casino Ramada
Casinoxclub
Clock Media Casinos
Club Monte Carlo
Elka Systems Casinos
Gamblers Palace
Gambling Stadium
Golden Wager Casino
Luxury Star Casino
Jerrysportsbook
MGM Casinos
NetClubcasino
Net-gaming-casino.com
Offshoreaction Casino
Online Casino Managers Association
Onlywinners.com
Sci-fi Casino
Simplenetbet
Skytowercasino
Vegaspalacecasino
Vegas Strip Casinos
Virtual Casino Group
Windows Casino

* not really!

What is quite interesting is if you do a "where are they now?" on that list LOL. I'm not sure the MGM Casinos on that list is THE MGM though!

 

[chayton]

I can't think of any except with a change of owners/management - like Golden Lounge. It seems to me that they on their way to rogue city when they were bought by 32Red.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Is there genuinely NO ex-rogues? Statistically that's really quite phenomenal isn't it?

 

[lnspin]

Is there genuinely NO ex-rogues? Statistically that's really quite phenomenal isn't it?

Looks like 32red is third on that list. If its the same one there now one of the best casinos out there

 

[chayton]

lol, Simmo has a little tiny disclaimer there at the bottom...

Edit: I find it interesting that all except the last two on that list are extinct now, aren't they Simmo?

 

[Simmo!]

lol, Simmo has a little tiny disclaimer there at the bottom...

Edit: I find it interesting that all except the last two on that list are extinct now, aren't they Simmo?

Yes that's what I reckon too Chayton.

32red*

* not really!

Simmo has a little tiny disclaimer there at the bottom

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Looks like 32red is third on that list. If its the same one there now one of the best casinos out there

I honestly don't like 32Red on a personal level, but I think they opened shop at the top of the business and have never looked back.

 

[maxd]

I'm not sure the MGM Casinos on that list is THE MGM though!

Yeah, MGM took a shot at it back in the day when it looked like the US might go legal. As I recall it was out-sourced crap and pretty much DOA.

Is there genuinely NO ex-rogues? Statistically that's really quite phenomenal isn't it?

Don't think that's quite true. As mentioned 32 Red bought a number of properties that were Rogue/Pending Rogue and (obviously) turned them around. There are a few other examples, some are work-in-progress. There have also been some big-news turn-arounds like Kahnawake, for instance.

It doesn't happen a lot but it does happen.

 

[nikantw]

It sounds like a business opportunity. You buy a rogue casino that it's suicidal management made it worth peanuts, and with your knowhow and reputation you turn it into gold!

 

[chuchu59]

lol, Simmo has a little tiny disclaimer there at the bottom...

Edit: I find it interesting that all except the last two on that list are extinct now, aren't they Simmo?

Of those 2 Virtual is rogue of course but Windows may probably have gone non-rogue after change of ownership from the previous Tony Friedman. They also branched out to use the playtech software in addition to the former usage of rtg software.

 

[Simmo!]

It sounds like a business opportunity. You buy a rogue casino that it's suicidal management made it worth peanuts, and with your knowhow and reputation you turn it into gold!

It's a very risky strategy. A current example is Media Corp (MDC) who ran Purple Lounge. I won't go into the story as it's dealt with elsewhere but the bottom line is it went "rogue" and the shell was effectively bought by a new company to launch a new product but they have struggled with the legacy left them ever since. When (or if!) their product makes some money, who's to say they won't face lawsuits from all and sundry for past misdemeanours? It's pointless suing someone with no money but if they manage to turn it round...! Risky.

It's more sensible (if you know what you are doing obviously!) building a new brand from scratch than buying a black sheep IMO.

 

[Casinomeister]

Casinos appear to be continually added to the rogue list over time, and apparently there is always a chance for redemption. But is the reverse genuinely possible?
Has a Rogue casino ever cleaned up it's ways and become accredited?

Good question. The Rogue pit has been around for over a decade - in fact, "Rogue casino" was coined by yours truly and has become a common term in gamblers' lingo.

Looking at the archives, and the old files I have on my hard drive, there are many instances of good casinos going bad, good casinos having hiccups (fall from grace) but getting it together and becoming good again, and a few that can't make up their minds what they want to do (888.com, Betfair, etc.).

But no casino that I can tell was first a rogue (or not recommended) and then became accredited. Except for Golden Lounge - but this was a change in ownership so that doesn't count.

I would still challenge any casino that is in the pit to give it a shot - but unfortunately, many casinos that are rogue are there because of poor business ethics. Business ethics don't normally change within a company unless the company is sold or taken over by totally different individuals. That doesn't happen so often in this industry.

 

[Balthazar]

Don't think that's quite true. As mentioned 32 Red bought a number of properties that were Rogue/Pending Rogue and (obviously) turned them around.

Yeah but new ownership doesn't (or shouldn't) count.

There have also been some big-news turn-arounds like Kahnawake, for instance.

The gaming commission? Not a casino.

So it does look like it never happened after all. I'm quite shocked actually that no rogue casino in history got its shit together and got accredited later on.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I'm quite shocked actually that no rogue casino in history got its shit together and got accredited later on.

Me too. Bryan did mention somewhere in the "about Casinomeister" section that he's learned that a leopard rarely changes it's spots (or words to that effect) in this industry, which inspired my question.
It seems in this example, these leopards never change their spots. It's sad.

 

[243 lines=daft]

I was under the impression Jackpot Factory used to be in the bad books before becoming for a while one of the best MGS groups?

Certainly I have played more through Jackpot Factory casinos such as First Web and All Slots than the more obvious big boys like 32 Red.
They also had a 'bonus with every deposit' policy that at the time (2008-ish) was pretty groundbreaking.


It's a shame to see that people are starting to moan a bit about them again now though, and that possibly they've slipped back into the pack a bit

 

[Casinomeister]

I was under the impression Jackpot Factory used to be in the bad books before becoming for a while one of the best MGS groups?

Certainly I have played more through Jackpot Factory casinos such as First Web and All Slots than the more obvious big boys like 32 Red.
They also had a 'bonus with every deposit' policy that at the time (2008-ish) was pretty groundbreaking.


It's a shame to see that people are starting to moan a bit about them again now though, and that possibly they've slipped back into the pack a bit

I'm only counting casinos that were initially in the rogue section and rose to the moment and bettered themselves. Jackpot Factory, to include Fortune Lounge and Mini-Vegas, fell from grace at one time but got their act together and came back on board.

 

[maphesto]

English Harbour was in the rogue pit for some time (in the pit, under "not recommended" I think) and then cleared up the mess and got accredited. Now, with same management, "same" software they are renamed to Liberty Slots and back in the pit.

 

[Casinomeister]

English Harbour was in the rogue pit for some time (in the pit, under "not recommended" I think) and then cleared up the mess and got accredited. Now, with same management, "same" software they are renamed to Liberty Slots and back in the pit.

Yeah - another example of falling-from-grace-but-getting-yer-shit-together-and-being-restated

Liberty slots is not really the same management. They are only there because they didn't divulge their licensing jurisdiction. That one is an easy fix.

 

[Simmo!]

in fact, "Rogue casino" was coined by yours truly and has become a common term in gamblers' lingo.

Brownie point for that but be aware, you're also the one I want to punch when someone talks about a red ("rouge") casino

 

[maxd]

The gaming commission? Not a casino.

My point was that there have been some big-time turn-arounds in the industry. IMO Kahnawake is a perfectly good example of this because by upgrading their policies they triggered the automatic upgrading of ALL their licensees policies. If the licensing body is a POS then the casinos are pretty much free to follow in kind. When the licensing body comes in from the cold then the licensees have to clean up their act too or find another licensing jurisdiction.

IOW, Kahnawake's improvements (see the Best Worst 2011) brought a great many casinos back from the shadowy realms. I think that is distinctly relevant to the topic of discussion here.

And others have pointed out some specific casinos that have returned to grace. As I've said, more are currently doing the same but it doesn't happen overnight.

 

[sfcat]

Hmmm

It sounds like a business opportunity. You buy a rogue casino that it's suicidal management made it worth peanuts, and with your knowhow and reputation you turn it into gold!

You know, that sounds like a great idea. I wonder how much a rogue costs?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes that's what I reckon too Chayton.



Simmo has a little tiny disclaimer there at the bottom

Thank you for wasting my time and making my tea go cold

MUPPET!!!

I just had to see how 32Red came to be considered rogue before I started playing online, and I just couldn't.

I thought maybe it was because Pat chipped the Fruitie by the bogs after I emptied it in 2006, but I could find no evidence to support this

 

[dunover]

Yeah but new ownership doesn't (or shouldn't) count.



The gaming commission? Not a casino.

So it does look like it never happened after all. I'm quite shocked actually that no rogue casino in history got its shit together and got accredited later on.

Not really, as if we consider what most of the rogue credentials are - keeping money and not paying out. So, in order to gain accreditation, the same fraudsters (CM already said change of ownership doesn't count) would suddenly have to experience some sort of moral epiphany, sell one of their holiday homes in a tax haven or one of their Aston Martins and dig up all the accounts they never paid out on and satisfy them with interest.

They would have to sell another home to set up a decent CS system, and another car to get the float going in order to pay winners fast. On top of that, they would be battling a crap reputation in order to get new customers for their (now) legitimate honest casino.

Says Mr. ex-casino boss Ivor Condham, sunning himself in the Cayman Islands "Ah, f*ck it....."

 

[sfcat]

Change of ownership

Not really, as if we consider what most of the rogue credentials are - keeping money and not paying out. So, in order to gain accreditation, the same fraudsters (CM already said change of ownership doesn't count) would suddenly have to experience some sort of moral epiphany, sell one of their holiday homes in a tax haven or one of their Aston Martins and dig up all the accounts they never paid out on and satisfy them with interest.

But if it's different owners, then they aren't the "same fraudsters" in the first place... If, for example, club world bought cool cat, I would expect them to transfer operations to their CS and use their terms & conditions, etc... So why a change in owners would change things? Doesn't make sense to me.

Now, if a rogue sells to a rogue, obviously still a rogue!
Cat