# Megaways ..... AAAAAAAAAAAAAgh

#### Balthazar

##### The Governor
Yeah Megaways just can't be fixed strips...they'd have to be far too big (to the point where it would be nearly impossible to have a decent win on them).

However, they don't seem to work "scratch card" style like, say, Jammin' Jars.

I don't know how they work, but my guess would be that the game engine "invents" new reels to match the outcome from the RNG.

#### brianmon

##### Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
I have two theories. Although both rely on fixed reel bands.

1. Each reel has 5/6 separate reel bands, for 2 ways, 3ways, 4ways, 5ways, 6ways and in the case of reels 1 and 6, 7ways.
So it's then just a case of the RNG choosing a reel band and stop position per reel

2. There is only one reel band per reel, based on the Max megaways, ie 117,649 ways.
The RNG picks reel stop position, and the number of ways (2 to 6/7)
and either ...

A. the symbols expand, meaning the number of symbols remain the same, but the actual length (in stop positions) of the reel bands changes.
so if a reel band section had the symbols 10 - 9 - K - Scatter - A - J - Q , the stop position was K and the number of ways = 3, then the game would display K Scatter A and after a reaction, the 9 would drop in

or

B. the symbols expand from the reel stop position covering some of the symbols, meaning the number of symbols changes. But the actual length (in stop positions) of the reel bands stays the same.
so if a reel band section had the symbols 10 - 9 - K - Scatter - A - J - Q , the stop position was K and the number of ways = 3, then the game would display K A Q because the 9, Scatter and J would be covered. and after a reaction the 10 would drop in
Maybe this is why the scatters are as rare as they are. because with some 'ways' and stop positions, the scatters just aren't there.
It would also explain how you can get a scatter with a symbol above, and when that symbol is removed by a reaction another scatter can drop in. But the game can never have scatter-symbol-scatter landing on the initial spin

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#### Reelsoffun

##### When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
I have two theories. Although both rely on fixed reel bands.

1. Each reel has 5/6 separate reel bands, for 2 ways, 3ways, 4ways, 5ways, 6ways and in the case of reels 1 and 6, 7ways.
So it's then just a case of the RNG choosing a reel band and stop position per reel

2. There is only one reel band per reel, based on the Max megaways, ie 117,649 ways.
The RNG picks reel stop position, and the number of ways (2 to 6/7)
and either ...

A. the symbols expand, meaning the number of symbols remain the same, but the actual length (in stop positions) of the reel bands changes.
so if a reel band section had the symbols 10 - 9 - K - Scatter - A - J - Q , the stop position was K and the number of ways = 3, then the game would display K Scatter A and after a reaction, the 9 would drop in

or

B. the symbols expand from the reel stop position covering some of the symbols, meaning the number of symbols changes. But the actual length (in stop positions) of the reel bands stays the same.
so if a reel band section had the symbols 10 - 9 - K - Scatter - A - J - Q , the stop position was K and the number of ways = 3, then the game would display K A Q because the 9, Scatter and J would be covered. and after a reaction the 10 would drop in
Maybe this is why the scatters are as rare as they are. because with some 'ways' and stop positions, the scatters just aren't there.
It would also explain how you can get a scatter with a symbol above, and when that symbol is removed by a reaction another scatter can drop in. But the game can never have scatter-symbol-scatter landing on the initial spin

Your missing another option, that after the initial reels stop cascades are re picked from any position of the reel again and not from what landed just above the first time. It could even use another random set for each cascade too, loads of ways to do it. This way also explains how you can drop another scatter on same reel on top of another as you say cant happen if its cascading from its current position

#### Balthazar

##### The Governor
you can drop another scatter on same reel on top of another as you say cant happen if its cascading from its current position

This and the stacked symbols are the biggest clues that they aren't fixed reel strips. Take Bonanza for example...imagine the size of the strips with all the (fairly rare) stacked symbols that sometimes appear on each reel.

I think you guys make it too complicated. If you know how Jammin Jars works...this would be the same thing except that instead of having thousands of predetermined outcomes and picking one for each spin, the game would just make them out of the blue to match the RNG results.

If the RNG says 15x win on that spin then the game will "make" a 15x win. There are hundreds of ways to win 15x on Bonanza.

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#### brianmon

##### Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
This and the stacked symbols are the biggest clues that they aren't fixed reel strips. Take Bonanza for example...imagine the size of the strips with all the (fairly rare) stacked symbols that sometimes appear on each reel.

I think you guys make it too complicated. If you know how Jammin Jars works...this would be the same thing except that instead of having thousands of predetermined outcomes and picking one for each spin, the game would just make them out of the blue to match the RNG results.

If the RNG says 15x win on that spin then the game will "make" a 15x win. There are hundreds of ways to win 15x on Bonanza.
That would be way too complicated to do, from a programming point of view.
Plus, what about wins of 15.1x and 15.2x which may be possible. But maybe 15.7x or15.9x wins aren't possible and then there are all the other permutations 1.x 2.x ...... 99.x ......, and what about the zero paying spins? How would they be derived from an RNG? if that RNG produced numbers between 0.0 and 1000.9?

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#### brianmon

##### Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
Your missing another option, that after the initial reels stop cascades are re picked from any position of the reel again and not from what landed just above the first time. It could even use another random set for each cascade too, loads of ways to do it. This way also explains how you can drop another scatter on same reel on top of another as you say cant happen if its cascading from its current position
Wouldn't that leave too much to chance, as in the chance of multiple long, high paying cascades, if the next symbols dropping in, were completely random?
I'd expect BTG to have much more control over the game than that

#### Jono777

##### Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4

So hard to explain thoughts and ideas over 'text' sometimes

#### brianmon

##### Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
There was also that guy, who extracted the reel bands from the coding that's downloaded to your computer, every time you load the game. IIRC he was Scandinavian.
I'm not sure if he actually posted the Bonanza reel bands, even though he did say he'd extracted them.
But he definitely posted the DHV reel bands

#### Reelsoffun

##### When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Wouldn't that leave too much to chance, as in the chance of multiple long, high paying cascades, if the next symbols dropping in, were completely random?
I'd expect BTG to have much more control over the game than that

So have you not cleared a block of 7 of the same symbol to then see another 7 drop in of the same ones? i know i have more than once.

They do have control hence why they use multiple reel strip sets. Control can still be random.

#### Jono777

##### Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4
There was also that guy, who extracted the reel bands from the coding that's downloaded to your computer, every time you load the game. IIRC he was Scandinavian.
I'm not sure if he actually posted the Bonanza reel bands, even though he did say he'd extracted them.
But he definitely posted the DHV reel bands

DHV! - Yes I recall those bands being posted. Lot different tho IMO as those only have 4 symbols every spin, compared to the multi million combinations possible on Bonanza

#### Reelsoffun

##### When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
This and the stacked symbols are the biggest clues that they aren't fixed reel strips. Take Bonanza for example...imagine the size of the strips with all the (fairly rare) stacked symbols that sometimes appear on each reel.

I think you guys make it too complicated. If you know how Jammin Jars works...this would be the same thing except that instead of having thousands of predetermined outcomes and picking one for each spin, the game would just make them out of the blue to match the RNG results.

If the RNG says 15x win on that spin then the game will "make" a 15x win. There are hundreds of ways to win 15x on Bonanza.

Not sure how you can say they aren't fixed strips when they were posted on this site somewhere months ago.
And already said they are in the region of 177 symbols each plus or minus half a dozen or so, and like other games uses more than one set for the base. Which offsets some of "imagine the size of the strips with all the (fairly rare) stacked symbols that sometimes appear on each reel" comment.

#### brianmon

##### Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
DHV! - Yes I recall those bands being posted. Lot different tho IMO as those only have 4 symbols every spin, compared to the multi million combinations possible on Bonanza
Yeah, But I wasn't comparing the two. Just saying that he did have the necessary computer skills to extract the reel bands from the coding, and posted the DHV ones. So his claim that he extracted the Bonanza reel bands is probably true. But IIRC he stopped posting before he posted the Bonanza bands, or maybe it was just after

#### Reelsoffun

##### When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Wouldn't that leave too much to chance, as in the chance of multiple long, high paying cascades, if the next symbols dropping in, were completely random?
I'd expect BTG to have much more control over the game than that

No the math is the control and it don't leave it to any more chance than expected that's the point of having the strips they are the math.

#### Reelsoffun

##### When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Yeah, But I wasn't comparing the two. Just saying that he did have the necessary computer skills to extract the reel bands from the coding, and posted the DHV ones. So his claim that he extracted the Bonanza reel bands is probably true. But IIRC he stopped posting before he posted the Bonanza bands, or maybe it was just after

I have the strip info and math for many games but its not my place to post them, and I will not, sorry.

#### brianmon

##### Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
No the math is the control and it don't leave it to any more chance than expected that's the point of having the strips they are the math.
Maybe the next symbol to drop, isn't the next one on the reel band. But the 3rd or 4th one or whatever. But I'd expect it to be a fixed offset, which would be more 'calculateable', rather than a random one, where it could randomly choose the 'wrong' one (wrong from BTG's point of view).

Although, if you have the reel band info. It would be quite easy for you to do a few spins, and trace where the next symbol came from

#### Reelsoffun

##### When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Maybe the next symbol to drop, isn't the next one on the reel band. But the 3rd or 4th one or whatever. But I'd expect it to be a fixed offset, which would be more 'calculateable', rather than a random one, where it could randomly choose the 'wrong' one (wrong from BTG's point of view).

Although, if you have the reel band info. It would be quite easy for you to do a few spins, and trace where the next symbol came from

How is a fixed point more calculate able than a random event? both are calculable.

But like all these threads going in circles there is many ways to do it and only the provider knows for certain exactly how its doing the math, we can only make informed guesses and speculations.

#### Balthazar

##### The Governor
That would be way too complicated to do, from a programming point of view.
Plus, what about wins of 15.1x and 15.2x which may be possible. But maybe 15.7x or15.9x wins aren't possible and then there are all the other permutations 1.x 2.x ...... 99.x ......, and what about the zero paying spins? How would they be derived from an RNG? if that RNG produced numbers between 0.0 and 1000.9?
Hmm? RNG says win is 0 then the game engine makes a 0x win? From a programming POV it's no more complicated than predetermined outcomes like Jammin Jars. It's not like someone individually created every single outcome on Jammin Jars by moving the symbols around, they put in parameters and let the game create the light show.

Same thing here...except that Megaways would do it live instead of pre-recorded.

As for DHV it's not a Megaways slot.

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#### toph11

##### Experienced Member
i've been playing a lot of noble rats, microgaming version of megaways
amazing slot
but they released betty's full service
this thing is a sack of shi*
it's basically extra chilli but you win the gamble more often
but the bonus is so bad, it gives dead spins so damn much
i might do a few deposits to give it a chance but it is the worst slot i ever played
also it gave me max 'megaways' a few times, all of them paid less than 1x

#### brianmon

##### Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
Hmm? RNG says win is 0 then the game engine makes a 0x win? From a programming POV it's no more complicated than predetermined outcomes like Jammin Jars. It's not like someone individually created each single outcome on Jammin Jars by moving the symbols around, they put in parameters and let the game create the light show.

Same thing here...except that Megaways would do it live instead of pre-recorded.

As for DHV it's not a Megaways slot.
So the chance of a zero paying spin is 1 in a 1000, or whatever the upper number is??
I've never programmed slots. But I do have quite a lot of programming experience. So I can easily appreciate how complicated it would be to write algorithms to produce winning combinations based on an x win amount, especially with a megaways slot, where there are the follow up cascades to take into account too.
It would be, and is, much easier to use either (weighted) reel bands or pre-determined sequences (as with jammin jars)
I'm pretty sure @trancemonkey would confirm this

As far as Jammin Jars goes... Obviously no one sits and individually creates each sequence.
Initially, the outcomes are generated randomly, billions of them. Then winning sequences and losing sequences are sorted and selected to be added to a database of 'spins', maybe a million or so. Certain outcomes, which pay way too high will be discarded. But by adding the appropriate number of zero paying, low paying, medium paying and high paying wins to the database, the correct RTP can be achieved. The RTP will be the total of all the individual wins added together, then divided by the total number of database entries multiplied by 100

When the game is played, the database entry corresponding to the number the RNG produces is selected. Each database entry contains all the necessary information to playback each 'spin'
So the game, when played doesn't create any lightshow, it merely plays back the selected pre-determined sequence of events. Which is why players have witnessed absolutely identical sequences, producing identical wins. (see the JJ thread). This would be VERY unlikely to happen if the game was randomly generating the sequence based on a win amount

I'm sure @trancemonkey would be able to explain it better, although IIRC he already has done in the JJ thread

As far as DHV goes, as I already posted in reply to Jono... I wasn't comparing DHV with Bonanza. I was just pointing out that the guy who claimed to have extracted the reel bands for Bonanza, was probably genuine. Since he'd already posted the reel bands for DHV

#### trancemonkey

##### Ueber Meister
Cheers Dave!

From my new understanding then I was sort of originally right when I started that there are not FIXED reels bands as such, they are newly generated each spin, hence the 'pick' system you describe.

This is what I meant when I said due to the combinations possible each outcome you could not have EVERY possible outcome "physically" fixed on a wrap around reel band, no way

I am of course referring to Megaways mechanics and not standard line or 243 ways slots.

No they are most definitely not made up on the fly. They are most definitely fixed bands.