Medicare - Now What?

[anniemac]

I'm not going to bash Obama or any other elected official in this thead. We got them and now we have to live with them. However, I am going to tell you what is now happening to the Medicare system as it is affecting me.

My Significant Other has a compression fracture of the T7 and 8 vertebrae. At the time he was hurt, he had no insurance so we had to beg and plead and pay out ourselves for any kind of help. Just FYI, he worked for 38 yrs. as a machinist.

Took 2 yrs. to get approved for SS Disability and consequently his vertebrae had grown together and nothing can be done now. He has a morphine pump implanted and sees his back Dr. every 3 months for a refill.

After the first of the year, his regular physician told him he no longer would be caring for him. Now he has had this Dr. for 10 yrs. No reasoning for it.
We called several other Drs. and when they were told he was on Medicare, they refused to see him. This is just Dr. for colds etc. Not his back.

Finally found what is called a 'Medicare clinic'. He went to see the Dr. there and is was a joke. All the Dr. did was mess with his broken computer and schedule a blood test. That was it. When we got the bill breakdown from Medicare they had charged $638. Medicare paid $400+ and he is liable for the rest.

This is absolutely ridiculous for the service he received. And this is the reason that Medicare is going broke. I can firmly and with verifiable information state that Drs. are gouging Medicare because they can and Medicare lets them.

If you don't think this will effect you, it will. You will be old one day and kicked to the curb just like all old and disabled people are now. They receive substandard service and have to accept it because there is nothing out there for them.

 

[susanjbo]

If im correct Your medicare is a direct result of the system we in australia have had for 20 years. Basicly free medical for all Aussies. But yea, waiting lists are still an issue. Now going by what your saying, the president at the time who visited here ( god knows who) obviously took the name Mecicare with him but forgot to add the system that goes with it.

Personally i wouldnt want to get sick in USA, i couldnt afford to get home after i dont think.

You guys get screwed, Do we in Ozz have some of the best doctors?? YES! Do we have some of the best research facilitys? YES. Do we have some of the highest stardards in the world? YES. Are we reknown for our medical attributes? YES.

So if this is the case, why is our medical system basiclly free?/ Id say you have a whole assosiation of filthy greedy selfish doctors and medical companies.

 

[swampwitch]

Why, you're just talkin' socialism there missy! Don't you understand that health care isn't a right, it's a privilege...a privilege the poor, the elderly, and the lower middle class don't deserve because the measure of a person's moral worth is how much money they have. It's in the Bible! Somewhere!

 

[kauphy]

do not feel bad i have the lower medical and i had to go to the doctors.

frist words out of the nurse mouth after she asked me what was wrong was cancer.

then the doc came in felt my neck and tryed to look in my ears but the light was out in his ear thing.

he spent the next 10 mins trying to change the bulb and then just sent me to anoughter doc.

so i lived 2 weeks thinking i might have cancer.

and these r the only doctors that my family r allowed to see which at times sucks.

thats why i have been so worried when all of this goverment crap started happening

my baby has d.s and might have to have open heart sur and i don,t know if it will be covered.

the only thing i can do is pray alot and hope he does.nt need it.

i hope things get better for you.

 

[greasemonkey]

I'm not going to bash Obama or any other elected official in this thead. We got them and now we have to live with them. However, I am going to tell you what is now happening to the Medicare system as it is affecting me.

My Significant Other has a compression fracture of the T7 and 8 vertebrae. At the time he was hurt, he had no insurance so we had to beg and plead and pay out ourselves for any kind of help. Just FYI, he worked for 38 yrs. as a machinist.

Took 2 yrs. to get approved for SS Disability and consequently his vertebrae had grown together and nothing can be done now. He has a morphine pump implanted and sees his back Dr. every 3 months for a refill.

After the first of the year, his regular physician told him he no longer would be caring for him. Now he has had this Dr. for 10 yrs. No reasoning for it.
We called several other Drs. and when they were told he was on Medicare, they refused to see him. This is just Dr. for colds etc. Not his back.

Finally found what is called a 'Medicare clinic'. He went to see the Dr. there and is was a joke. All the Dr. did was mess with his broken computer and schedule a blood test. That was it. When we got the bill breakdown from Medicare they had charged $638. Medicare paid $400+ and he is liable for the rest.

This is absolutely ridiculous for the service he received. And this is the reason that Medicare is going broke. I can firmly and with verifiable information state that Drs. are gouging Medicare because they can and Medicare lets them.

If you don't think this will effect you, it will. You will be old one day and kicked to the curb just like all old and disabled people are now. They receive substandard service and have to accept it because there is nothing out there for them.

I hope everything works out for you very much.

That sounds very horrible! Why didn't your friend have insurance when he got hurt? If only he had insurance at that time everything would probably be fine, correct? That is horrible timing.

That is a big issue with our system now. If you get hurt and didn't have insurance then you better have the funds to pay yourself. It would be like getting into a 3 car accident and not having car insurance. It is just a bad idea or bad circumstance.

I hope you get through this difficult time well.

 

[greasemonkey]

If im correct Your medicare is a direct result of the system we in australia have had for 20 years. Basicly free medical for all Aussies. But yea, waiting lists are still an issue. Now going by what your saying, the president at the time who visited here ( god knows who) obviously took the name Mecicare with him but forgot to add the system that goes with it.

Personally i wouldnt want to get sick in USA, i couldnt afford to get home after i dont think.

You guys get screwed, Do we in Ozz have some of the best doctors?? YES! Do we have some of the best research facilitys? YES. Do we have some of the highest stardards in the world? YES. Are we reknown for our medical attributes? YES.

So if this is the case, why is our medical system basiclly free?/ Id say you have a whole assosiation of filthy greedy selfish doctors and medical companies.

What do you mean by "free"???

Do the Dr's not get paid? The nurses?

How the hell is it free? Unless you don't make any money and as such don't pay into it via taxes then it isn't free. It is only free to those that don't contribute.

So if you don't contribute then congrats on your free health care that you are forcing your neighbor to pay for you. If you do contribute then you are a sucker for thinking it is free... that is why they take almost 50% of income and 10% of all sales along with the VAT (Value Added Tax) and estate tax and a few others in your country!

"Free" What a misguided joke.
"Free" is not having half your income confiscated by a govt.

 

[greasemonkey]

Why, you're just talkin' socialism there missy! Don't you understand that health care isn't a right, it's a privilege...a privilege the poor, the elderly, and the lower middle class don't deserve because the measure of a person's moral worth is how much money they have. It's in the Bible! Somewhere!

Correct. It is a privilege. You have the RIGHT to get yourself some insurance. You should not have the privilege to have me and my family make due with less because you didn't go get yourself insurance. You are responsible for yourself. The govt. should not be. You sure the hell should not want the govt to be resposnible for you. You should want the responsibility that comes with freedom.
It is not my fault that you didn't get insurance and I sure shouldn't have to pay for yours. YOU have the right to do just about ANYTHING you want in a free country. You should NOT have a govt taking funds from you and giving to me because I didn't act in the most responsible manner necessary.

so health care is your privilege if you accept it. You just have to make sure you use your RIGHT to go acquire it.

 

[BBKPoker]

Correct. It is a privilege. You have the RIGHT to get yourself some insurance.

Lol, since when is the most basic standards of ability to live in decent health a privilege? And since when has it been a good idea to have an unregulated industry that profits by prioritizing investor interests over the public's health?

I'm not saying the current healthcare plan is the best solution, but its certainly a lot better than things were before Obama when you couldn't get health care cheap, and if you had any preexisting condition, too damn bad, no insurance company is going to accept you. Also, good luck getting your insurance company to pay for anything costly without a fight no matter what your policy supposedly covers.

As a taxpayer, I can sure see a lot of other programs I'd rather see cut before I cut anything that made health care, medicine and seeing a doctor affordable. It's as basic of a right as access to clean drinking water, imo.

 

[silcnlayc]

BBKPoker Quote:
Originally Posted by greasemonkey
Correct. It is a privilege. You have the RIGHT to get yourself some insurance.

Lol, since when is the most basic standards of ability to live in decent health a privilege?

A right is something you are born with, and you will
die with, granted to you by your "Creator" (whatever you
imagine He/She/It/Them to be). A privilege is granted to
you by the King, General, Church, or the State, and may be
revoked at any time, if one loses favor. This is usually
caused by a failure "consider the king", a failure to pay
the "royalty", tax, indulgence, tithe, license fee, etc.

So-called "Civil Rights" are by definition, conveyed by
positive law, and thus are more akin to privileges than
to natural rights. So-called "Civil Liberties" are by
definition natural immunities to government interference,
and are thus are more akin to proper natural rights.

Rights exist before, and are thus superior to, privileges.

Hopefully, all will turn out well regardless.

.

 

[greasemonkey]

....

 

[greasemonkey]

Lol, since when is the most basic standards of ability to live in decent health a privilege? And since when has it been a good idea to have an unregulated industry that profits by prioritizing investor interests over the public's health?

I'm not saying the current healthcare plan is the best solution, but its certainly a lot better than things were before Obama when you couldn't get health care cheap, and if you had any preexisting condition, too damn bad, no insurance company is going to accept you. Also, good luck getting your insurance company to pay for anything costly without a fight no matter what your policy supposedly covers.

As a taxpayer, I can sure see a lot of other programs I'd rather see cut before I cut anything that made health care, medicine and seeing a doctor affordable. It's as basic of a right as access to clean drinking water, imo.

ummmmmm.... since the beginning of the country? Ever read a history book or anything like that?


You live in America? Please read the constitution. How about that? How about you know what the constitution says before you spew stuff like this?

I don't even know where you are coming from here. Are you saying that it SHOULD be a right? Or it already is an unalienable right? What the hell are you saying?

I know that it does NOT give the RIGHT to "free" health care in the constitution under which you live. It simply is not a RIGHT. You are not born with the RIGHT to "free" health care that someone else pays for. That is such a socialist ideal.

It amazes me that so many people in our brief history have fought, sacrificed and even died to gain their freedom and be their own person then a few generations later we have weak kneed brats that want someone else to take care of them and are willing to give up their own freedoms in order to get it.... freedoms that people were willing to die for not long ago. Like Ben Franklin said "those that are willing to give up their freedom for security will get neither and deserve none".

 

[greasemonkey]

Speaking of this topic of what some liberals think is a right and what isnt.... where do you then draw the line?

If you want to disregard the constitution and say that some things should be "rights" (which is just wrong and short sited) then who decides where the line is drawn?

If you say free health care that other people have to pay on your behalf then i say I want my home paid for. i mean, it certainly should be a right to live in a clean and safe home right? Lets get the govt to buy everyones houses for them. Those rich guys can afford to buy my house - tax them more!

Hey! I need a safe and dependable car. How Dare the auto industry try and make a profit on my NEEDS? Screw them! Make them give me a great car for free and bill the rich guys. It should be a right to be safe while driving, not a privilege.

HEY!!!! It is my right to a secondary education! i should not have to work part time jobs all over the place AND study AND take out loans that I will have to repay! Make the govt. pay for it. Tax the other people so that I don't have to sacrifice on my own behalf. its a right.

HEY!!!! It should be a RIGHT to have a cell phone. I need to communicate with loved ones and what if I get stuck in a storm and need to call for help. The govt. should demand that everyone have cell phones for free!!!


..................................... and on and on........ what you are calling for is the foot in the door for socialism and communism. It is bad. it is what America has fought against since its inception. Think its great living under communism and socialism with all the "free" stuff you want and no freedoms? Why don't we Americans keep jumping the border to live in Mexico or swimming the ocean trying to escape to Cuba?
If it is such a great idea then why do so many that live in those circumstances try to escape it and live here where poor bbkpoker has to actually pay for his own stuff?

Think about it for one second before you willingly want to throw away what was fought for so hard to get.

 

[all4greed]

Finally found what is called a 'Medicare clinic'. He went to see the Dr. there and is was a joke. All the Dr. did was mess with his broken computer and schedule a blood test. That was it. When we got the bill breakdown from Medicare they had charged $638. Medicare paid $400+ and he is liable for the rest.

Do you have supplemental Medicare insurance?

My wife just got on Medicare January, disability payments started October 2010 for end stage renal disease. She had to get supplemental insurance within 6 months of approval as she can't be denied within that timeframe, regardless of medical issues and she will start dialysis in the near future. She has Plan F - the most expensive and comprehensive.

Up until then, we had no insurance until we were drawn lottery style for the Oregon Health Plan. Estimated medical bills for 2009-2010 were $500,000. A lot of that was written off before we got medical, the rest we can't pay.

I feel your pain.

 

[jelsmith]

By the time Im old enough for Medicare and Social Security there wont be anything left. I may as well throw myself in a ditch when I turn 65

 

[Nifty29]

Just FYI about the Australian Medicare system.

The system is funded by a 1.5% compulsory levy (based on taxable income) which is collected via the income tax process.

Residents who earn less than $16,000 pa are exempt from the levy.

We also have a strong private health insurance industry which is, of course, optional. The main advantage of having this is being able to avoid waiting lists and be seen in a private hospital with your choice of doctor, although there is usually a gap payment to be made depending on your level of cover.

Residents who earn more than $100,000 pa and do not have private insurance, are charged a 3% Medicare levy instead of 1.5% to encourage them to take up their own cover (presumably because they can afford it).

The system here works very well, however there are waiting lists for elective procedures and even some low-urgency ones. On the other hand, if you are in serious need you will be treated immediately at a public hospital.

When you are admitted to a public hospital for any reason, you just provide your medicare number and there is nothing to be paid at any time. The same applies at most GP clinics, although some may charge over the Government agreed fee but it is only usually $10 or similar.

One example is recently when my son had a fractured foot and contracted an infection in the fracture. I took him to the ER where after waiting about an hour he was attended by a doctor and then a surgeon. It was decided he needed surgery the next day so he was admitted immediately and ended up being in hospital for five days. I did not have to pay a cent for any of it.

I don't understand why the USA can't do the same thing, but I guess there must be a reason.

 

[anniemac]

@all4greed. The answer is no. He never did the SSI or Medicaid. Now because he gets too much money each month (LOL!) he can't get Medicaid. The 2 years it took to get disability he didn't get one penny.

@Jelsmith. My point exactly. With the ability to overcharge at will for sub-par services, the monies in Medicare will gone and soon.

@greasemonkey. I hope that you are always able to pay for insurance and that you never have to try to get help from the government. Tim worked from the time he was 16 yrs. old and paid taxes on every dime he made. Don't even suggest that because he is now on Disability and having to use the Medicare system that he is a free loader. He is 55 yrs. old and I can assure you that he would rather be working than what he is able to do now.

 

[Nifty29]

Speaking of this topic of what some liberals think is a right and what isnt.... where do you then draw the line?

If you want to disregard the constitution and say that some things should be "rights" (which is just wrong and short sited) then who decides where the line is drawn?

If you say free health care that other people have to pay on your behalf then i say I want my home paid for. i mean, it certainly should be a right to live in a clean and safe home right? Lets get the govt to buy everyones houses for them. Those rich guys can afford to buy my house - tax them more!

Hey! I need a safe and dependable car. How Dare the auto industry try and make a profit on my NEEDS? Screw them! Make them give me a great car for free and bill the rich guys. It should be a right to be safe while driving, not a privilege.

HEY!!!! It is my right to a secondary education! i should not have to work part time jobs all over the place AND study AND take out loans that I will have to repay! Make the govt. pay for it. Tax the other people so that I don't have to sacrifice on my own behalf. its a right.

HEY!!!! It should be a RIGHT to have a cell phone. I need to communicate with loved ones and what if I get stuck in a storm and need to call for help. The govt. should demand that everyone have cell phones for free!!!


..................................... and on and on........ what you are calling for is the foot in the door for socialism and communism. It is bad. it is what America has fought against since its inception. Think its great living under communism and socialism with all the "free" stuff you want and no freedoms? Why don't we Americans keep jumping the border to live in Mexico or swimming the ocean trying to escape to Cuba?
If it is such a great idea then why do so many that live in those circumstances try to escape it and live here where poor bbkpoker has to actually pay for his own stuff?

Think about it for one second before you willingly want to throw away what was fought for so hard to get.

Wow. It's a pretty harsh way of looking at things IMO.

So, by your reckoning, if a person born disabled who is never able to work develops cancer in adulthood, they should be denied medical treatment and be told "well you'll just have to die because you didn't contribute to the tax system".

You use the example of cars and cellphones. How can you even begin to compare those things to a human life, or to human suffering? It's crazy.

The USA has constantly championed the values of 'justice' and 'liberty'. How is it 'just' that someone who is less fortunate than another, through circumstances in most cases beyond their control, should be treated as less of a person and not entitled to the same considerations?

Sounds like you think that these 'lesser' people are an unnecessary burden on the state. I remember someone else who had that idea back in the 30's and 40's - he just rounded them up and killed them. Maybe you could run for congress on that ticket?

I know there are some in society who are deliberately idle and don't believe in doing anything worthwhile, but we should never put those in the same class as those who are just plain unfortunate.

 

[greasemonkey]

Wow. It's a pretty harsh way of looking at things IMO.

So, by your reckoning, if a person born disabled who is never able to work develops cancer in adulthood, they should be denied medical treatment and be told "well you'll just have to die because you didn't contribute to the tax system".

You use the example of cars and cellphones. How can you even begin to compare those things to a human life, or to human suffering? It's crazy.

The USA has constantly championed the values of 'justice' and 'liberty'. How is it 'just' that someone who is less fortunate than another, through circumstances in most cases beyond their control, should be treated as less of a person and not entitled to the same considerations?

Sounds like you think that these 'lesser' people are an unnecessary burden on the state. I remember someone else who had that idea back in the 30's and 40's - he just rounded them up and killed them. Maybe you could run for congress on that ticket?

I know there are some in society who are deliberately idle and don't believe in doing anything worthwhile, but we should never put those in the same class as those who are just plain unfortunate.

Wow indeed. That is how you see it? really and truly?

I never said that someone who is born disabled should be left to die of cancer when they are older. That is insane. How do you derive that from my words? That is a huge leap in reasoning.

My point is that it is NOT a right. Read our constitution. It simply is NOT a right. You do have the right to pursue it. To gain it. To have it. You don't have the right to have it handed to you for free however. I didn't say anything about contributing to tax system or not having anything to do with it. I didn't correlate the two things. People who are used to socialistic type ways correlate them. I don't think the govt. or taxes should be involved in any way. It is, at the core, redistributing money. TAKING from some and spreading to others. It's not right.

The basis of this country (usa) was to have personal FREEDOM and with that certainly comes personal RESPONSIBILITY. Having insurance is very important. It is more important than having cable or going out to eat or having a cell phone or any of that. If you don't have insurance but you do have cable, phone, auto...etc then you have made a poor decision IMO. If you do not have any of those things and you still cannot afford insurance then there are social safety nets in place to handle it. There is no need for a national health care plan. The safety net already exists. The rest of us CAN afford it. We may not be able to afford it AND the big house and car that we want, but we can afford it. Decisions, choices, personal responsibility. I don't want the govt. responsible for ANYTHING in my life other than what is enumerated in the constitution and I don't want them taking from me or telling me what to do because of it either.

I never said I want someone to die. That is horrible. I don't want anyone without care either. That is horrible. I do want people to take responsibility for their actions.

You can come up with a bunch of odd ball scenarios if you like. If a person was born with a disability then got cancer when they were adults:

A) They would be on disability SSI and be covered
B) The parents that have the child should also have set up a fund for them as adults. They are the parents and should accept responsibility for the child.


In America you are given equal OPPORTUNITY. Not equal OUTCOME.

....and Nifty, you are an ignorant fool for what I bolded in your message. Comparing what I said to Hitler? Really? Do you have no shame in anything you type?

"sounds like.... sounds like.... sounds like...."

Well hell then, it sounds like you molest babies and steal from churches. That makes as much sense as the leap that you made from my post. sheeeshhh




------------------------------

and I get it.. YOU believe health care is important and should be treated as a right even though it is clearly not in our constitiution. YOU DO. YOU BELIEVE it. It isn't in our constitution though. So why is YOUR opinion weighted? It should not stop there then (and it wouldn't). If you say health care should be a right then so should housing, travel, communication and everything else in this world. They are just as much RIGHTS as health care. You will die just as swiftly and surely without shelter as you will without health care.... and you have the RIGHT to pursue any of these things. You don't have the RIGHT to have any of it given to you. PERIOD.

 

[anniemac]

Greasemonkey,

I want to know what 'safety net' you think there is for people that don't have insurance because I can tell you from experience that there is not one. I could write a book on trying to get help from government agencies. I should post here the letter I got back from the Social Security Agency after I had my Representative contact them regarding Tim's disability application. I was told in no uncertain terms that it didn't matter who wrote to them, it wasn't going to make any difference and that if I kept on, it would only lengthen the process. Safety net, my A&&!

Good for you that you can plan ahead for all life's setbacks. Glad you have never had an unforseen catastophe.

Don't pass judgement on people that get kicked in the gut and don't have the resources that you do.

 

[Nifty29]

it sounds like you molest babies

Only a very sick person would even consider posting something like that.

and Nifty, you are an ignorant fool

There was no need for that comment. You made it personal purely because you didn't agree with my point of view, which is really childish.

You should not have the privilege to have me and my family make due with less because you didn't go get yourself insurance. You are responsible for yourself......It is not my fault that you didn't get insurance and I sure shouldn't have to pay for yours.....

So, if you aren't educated enough or were raised in a low socio-economic area, or you don't have a high-enough paying job, then you can just suffer whatever illness befalls you.

I'm also interested in how parents who have to care full time for a disabled child and only receive SSI (which would not cover the full cost of care) are supposed to 'put money away for their adult needs'? It's a fact that many parents of disabled children are single parents, which makes it even tougher.

IMO you have no grip on the realities of life for people who struggle just to put food on their table....and this, along with the sick comment you made earlier, is why there is no point discussing the issue with you any further.

 

[BBKPoker]

ummmmmm.... since the beginning of the country? Ever read a history book or anything like that?


You live in America? Please read the constitution. How about that? How about you know what the constitution says before you spew stuff like this?
.

Yeah, I live in America and I'm well versed in the constitution, it seems you are not. What was that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness clause again?

 

[BBKPoker]

And what I'm saying is that Americans have a right to a reasonable quality of healthcare at a reasonable cost. Neither is true at the moment, nor will ever be true under the current privatized model that profits by denying benefits, limiting coverage and refusing to provide services for individuals who are already sick or have any other preexisting condition.

It is the same as Americans having a right to cleaning drinking water as a basic quality of life/standard of living measure and far more arguably something we can claim the right to have access to than many other government provided services such as public education, housing assistance, etc.

 

[BBKPoker]

Hey! I need a safe and dependable car. How Dare the auto industry try and make a profit on my NEEDS? Screw them! Make them give me a great car for free and bill the rich guys. It should be a right to be safe while driving, not a privilege.

HEY!!!! It is my right to a secondary education! i should not have to work part time jobs all over the place AND study AND take out loans that I will have to repay! Make the govt. pay for it. Tax the other people so that I don't have to sacrifice on my own behalf. its a right.

HEY!!!! It should be a RIGHT to have a cell phone. I need to communicate with loved ones and what if I get stuck in a storm and need to call for help. The govt. should demand that everyone have cell phones for free!!!


..................................... and on and on........ what you are calling for is the foot in the door for socialism and communism. It is bad.

Lol, I mean every single government in the world uses a blend of socialism and capitalism to manage the government. It's a trend among right wingers to screech their fear buzz words like socialist, terrorist, radical etc as if they don't mean anything, but honestly what do you think national defense is? What do you think public education is? What do you think the federal jail system is? Public roads? The FDA? Water fluoridation? All of them are socialist elements of our government.

The rest of your post about cell phones and what not is just the standard straw man slippery slope logical fallacy. I could just as easily take it the other direction and ask you if its your intention to not have a military, to be unable to drive your car because there are no public roads etc, since you want to abolish every trace of socialism from our government and it would be just as absurd of an argument.

FWIW, While I'm born and raised here, I've lived 9 months in the UK and a year in New Zealand, and travelled through most of Europe, Asia, South America, etc. I love America, and I think its the best country in the world. That being said, pretty much every westernized country I've been to has better healthcare and a healthier populace than the USA does.

 

[greasemonkey]

Only a very sick person would even consider posting something like that.

Only a sick person would twist and pervert what I said into equating me with Hitler and suggesting I run for office to kill millions of people I know it may be hard for you to "get" but I was showing you the absurdity of your own comments. My comment had as much or more validity than yours.

There was no need for that comment. You made it personal purely because you didn't agree with my point of view, which is really childish.

No again. Wow you are hard to get through to. NO, YOU made it personal. Go read your post again. YOU made it personal by guessing that I wanted people to die and equating me to hitler even though I never said any of that. Thus YOU are the one that personalized it. duh.

So, if you aren't educated enough or were raised in a low socio-economic area, or you don't have a high-enough paying job, then you can just suffer whatever illness befalls you.

What are you talking about now? Please be specific. . Because if you know anything of American society and health care then you will know that if you are that poor then you are on govt. assistance, or should be...THUS you will have govt. providing your health care.... follow me, Nifty? This means that you would be on welfare and get govt. funded health care coverage. Understand that? It isn't as if people in America are so poor that they cant get on the govt. welfare system.

I'm also interested in how parents who have to care full time for a disabled child and only receive SSI (which would not cover the full cost of care) are supposed to 'put money away for their adult needs'? It's a fact that many parents of disabled children are single parents, which makes it even tougher.

of course it is tough. I don't deny that and I didn't say it isn't. What I am saying is be in charge of yourself. You have RESPONSIBILITY with freedom. Freedom is not void of consequences both good and bad and you need to accept both.

Poor decisions lead to many hardships. That doesn't mean that my heart doesn't go out to those struggling. It means that I make sure not to put myself in those positions IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.

For example, a single parent. It is not always there fault of course - they could be widowed or a widower but for the most part they made a poor decision. Whether that decision was to have children out of wedlock or marrying the wrong person hastily or whatever. Not always but often it is a poor choice that landed them in their position. They cannot help if their child is disabled of course. It IS hard for them. There are also tons of assistance for those people. They would not be so poor as to not afford health care. They would get it from the govt here. They may qualify for govt housing and food stamps, WICK and other safety nets to protect them from harm.
NO, they will not be living in the poshest areas or driving anything fancy. But they will be alive and able to eat and have shelter. Almost every town in America has a woman's shelter, a family center, programs to help low income families with utility bills and rent payments, food pantries, childrens hospitals are usually located within an hours drive of most places. There are tons of societal safety nets in place. You talk as if these people will just die without the govt stepping in and confiscating everyone's money then redistributing it amongst those that don't earn as much.

IMO you have no grip on the realities of life for people who struggle just to put food on their table....and this, along with the sick comment you made earlier, is why there is no point discussing the issue with you any further.

Again, you make an ignorant comment. You know absolutely nothing about me.

Cliff note version. My parents divorced when I was 5. My mother was only a secretary and had to walk to work 1.5 miles all year round and then home again. Me and my sister were latch key kids and fended for ourselves after school until my mother returned. We were stupidly poor. Very, very poor. I actually had to wear hand me down shoes from my sister - girl shoess admittedly because we could not afford new ones and the local goodwill didn't have any for me. We got our coats from goodwill. My mother was embarrassed to apply for govt. assitance as it was looked down on very much at that time (1970's). We were poor. Very poor and didn't always eat very well. I never even saw meat other than ground beef or hotdogs until I was 9 years old in my home. I couldn't get pills that would have cured my ear aches when I was younger as we could not afford them. I suffered through that pain nightly. Finally, A few members of the church that I went to got together and bought the pills for me finally. I know struggle. More so than you may think.
I learned from my Mother that I didn't need to rob my neighbors of their assets in order to be more comfortable. I made it. I joined the Marines out of Highschool so that I could afford a secondary education. I was in Dessert Storm and I graduated from College also. I work constantly and try to provide security for MY family. I will take care of myself and I don't want nor need the Government to take anything from me or give me anything except for freedom to do as I see fit.
So you need to get a clue as to whom you are talking to before spewing garbage out of your keyboard.

 

[greasemonkey]

Yeah, I live in America and I'm well versed in the constitution, it seems you are not. What was that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness clause again?

No, clearly you are not well versed in it at all. Firstly, life, lib and pursuit is not in the constitution it is in the Declaration of Independence. I never said differently but nice try.

However, you may want to go back and check to see where this "right" to free health care is. *hint* its not in their my well versed on the constitution friend.

And what I'm saying is that Americans have a right to a reasonable quality of healthcare at a reasonable cost. Neither is true at the moment, nor will ever be true under the current privatized model that profits by denying benefits, limiting coverage and refusing to provide services for individuals who are already sick or have any other preexisting condition.

It is the same as Americans having a right to cleaning drinking water as a basic quality of life/standard of living measure and far more arguably something we can claim the right to have access to than many other government provided services such as public education, housing assistance, etc.

No they do not. Where is this "right" granted in our constitution? Please show me since you are so well versed.

Let me assist you. Here is what the constitution says is the Federal govts. jobs/purpose:


1. International and interstate commerce (trade)
2. Naturalization
3. Bankruptcy
4. Coin Money, establish its value
5. Weights and Measures
6. Punish counterfeiting
7. Postal Service
8. Issue patents and copyrights
9. Establish Federal Courts
10. Govern District of Columbia
11. Purchase real estate for necessary buildings
12. Define and punish Maritime and international Crimes
13. Declare War
14. Make rules for, and fund Military Services


There it all is. Nothing about the govt. confiscating personal property and giving it to others. Although The 5th Amendment does offer protections to our "life, liberty, or property," noting we cannot be deprived of any of them without due process of law, which runs even more counter to the concept of socialized medicine.

Lol, I mean every single government in the world uses a blend of socialism and capitalism to manage the government. It's a trend among right wingers to screech their fear buzz words like socialist, terrorist, radical etc as if they don't mean anything, but honestly what do you think national defense is? ..........etc, etc, etc.

ummmmmmm.... it is what the govt is intended to do in the constitution. Thanks for pointing that out errantly. It validates my point. You do have the right to protection in the constitution. You do have the right to many things. Mostly the constitution tells you what the govt CANNOT do. This is because throughout history of mankind govts tend to tread on freedom and become to overbearing thus taking away freedoms. That is what the founding fathers were gaurding against. They werent busy telling you all the benefits you will get by being an American citizen. They were simply spelling out your freedom and telling you what the govt's restrictions are. Its a great read. Have a go at it. You may be surprised.

 

[greasemonkey]

Greasemonkey,

I want to know what 'safety net' you think there is for people that don't have insurance because I can tell you from experience that there is not one. I could write a book on trying to get help from government agencies. I should post here the letter I got back from the Social Security Agency after I had my Representative contact them regarding Tim's disability application. I was told in no uncertain terms that it didn't matter who wrote to them, it wasn't going to make any difference and that if I kept on, it would only lengthen the process. Safety net, my A&&!

Good for you that you can plan ahead for all life's setbacks. Glad you have never had an unforseen catastophe.

Don't pass judgement on people that get kicked in the gut and don't have the resources that you do.

Anniemac, I said there are saftey nets to those that cannot afford health care insurance. I meant that if you are so destitute that you cannot afford to purchase health care insurance then there are welfare programs that will put you on an insurance (medicaid) and there are also public hospitals and charities too.

My intent was not to criticize you. I genuinely empathize your situation. I truly hope your friend comes out of this well.

I don't think there is a built in safety net for those that don't get coverage when they can. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post so please explain at what point you were without health coverage?

I mean, your friend worked for years and years you said then he was injured but had no insurance? I guess I didn't get how that happened and assumed (possibly wrongly?) that it was a choice to not get insurance the very day that any work would not be covering it? sorry if I got that all confused. I will await clarifications before I comment further as I may have misunderstood the entire situation?

 

[greasemonkey]

On another note. Anniemac's post further demonstrates why socialized medicine is bad. She is saying what public healthcare exists is broken. Why in the world would the solution be to make a big, giant public healthcare system then to fix the broken one?

LOL@ that notion. Everything the govt. does of a social nature is a failure. Social security - going bankrupt. medicare/medicaid... a bankrupt joke.... I could go on and on but everyone already knows all of this.

 

[The Dude]

Admin note - no flaming

Please watch the Hitler and baby molesting comments. I know this is a "rants" arena, but please do not flame one another. That is uncool and will result in spankings and closings of threads. Thank you.

 

[Cabrair32]

Please watch the Hitler and baby molesting comments. I know this is a "rants" arena, but please do not flame one another. That is uncool and will result in spankings and closings of threads. Thank you.

haha. I was not even going to read this whole mess until I saw that casinomeister had just responded to it so I went to the above comment and read it! LOL. How can anyone resist reading after that intro?

"baby molesting and Hitler".

Aside from the name calling it is very interesting. 2 very distinct view points of view on what government is and what it is supposed to do.

 

[BBKPoker]

As wrong as greasemonkey is, I agree that comparing someone to Hitler is the very basest of arguments one could resort to.... along with questioning someone's patriotism or religion because you disagree with them, lol.

 

[BBKPoker]

ummmmmmm.... it is what the govt is intended to do in the constitution. Thanks for pointing that out errantly. It validates my point. You do have the right to protection in the constitution. You do have the right to many things. Mostly the constitution tells you what the govt CANNOT do. This is because throughout history of mankind govts tend to tread on freedom and become to overbearing thus taking away freedoms. That is what the founding fathers were gaurding against. They werent busy telling you all the benefits you will get by being an American citizen. They were simply spelling out your freedom and telling you what the govt's restrictions are. Its a great read. Have a go at it. You may be surprised.

Ok, I see, so it seems you are saying the socialist government programs that do exist aren't socialist because, um.... because...?

You want to claim that national defense, clean water, public roads etc is "protection" but then somehow exclude public health as some crazy leftist ideal. In reality you're just being typical in dividing the programs you do like vs the programs you don't and trying to reclassify them. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

 

[Nifty29]

I joined the Marines out of Highschool so that I could afford a secondary education. I was in Dessert Storm and I graduated from College also.

So the Marines put you through college? I.E. the Government subsidised your education? I didn't think you agreed with the Gov (i.e. the taxpayers) paying for anyone's education? Or is that only if it's you? Under your argument, if you can't afford it you don't get it - and you admitted yourself that you couldn't afford it.

I also see you said that you joined the Marines so you could get a college education. Did you think that by joining the Marines you might have to kill people? Or was killing (or potentially killing) a few nameless people from another part of the world worth it as long as you got your education? You can jump on me all you like, but you didn't say you joined the armed forces to protect and serve your country, and that education was just a 'side benefit' - you gave it as your reason for joining.

As wrong as greasemonkey is, I agree that comparing someone to Hitler is the very basest of arguments one could resort to.... along with questioning someone's patriotism or religion because you disagree with them, lol.

I didn't say he was 'like Hitler'. I was referring to the program Hitler had where he executed all the sick, disabled, and mentally handicapped citizens so the state didn't have to look after them (along with some other reasons).

My point was, and I could have made it better I agree, that how should a civilised society treat it's most vulnerable members? GM said that if you can't afford health care, then tough cookies you just have to suffer because people that can afford it shouldn't have to pay for those who can't. If they aren't allowed to be treated free (or heavily subsidised), then they probably will die young - and in the context of what I originally said there isn't a lot of difference. GM says "don't treat them" but doesn't give any other suggestions of what should be done with all those sick people - Hitler went a step further, and the only difference is that those people didn't live quite as long.

I was not for a minute suggesting GM was a Nazi or any such thing. If I think of a better analogy I will post it.

couldn't get pills that would have cured my ear aches when I was younger as we could not afford them. I suffered through that pain nightly. Finally, A few members of the church that I went to got together and bought the pills for me finally. I know struggle.

That is an awful situation - and I can guarantee it happens every minute of every day to families like yours. I'm very sorry that you had to go through all of that.

The part I cannot understand as regard to your views on universal health care, is that you received charity from others (the church) to help you along....surely that is a case of people who can afford things giving to those who cannot? You speak of this as somewhat of a 'blessing', which is was, but when it comes to applying it on a national scale via medicare etc you are dead against it.

You certainly know struggle. This is clear. So why would you want others to have to endure that kind of pain and sorrow when you could do something about it without it having a significant impact on your own situation. How can you think of you as that young lad in pain and not think "Geez I wish there was a proper health system where I could have had the medicine I needed regardless of how poor my family was"? Imagine how much better your young life could have been if every American who could afford it put a few dollars each year into the health system!

You had a tough start but you made it. Somehow you found an inner strength to take opportunities by the hand and become a fully-fledged taxpaying citizen. Unfortunately, not everyone knows how to find that inner strength and many never will - why punish them for not having the 'right' parents or the 'right' guidance?

 

[greasemonkey]

So the Marines put you through college? I.E. the Government subsidised your education? I didn't think you agreed with the Gov (i.e. the taxpayers) paying for anyone's education? Or is that only if it's you? Under your argument, if you can't afford it you don't get it - and you admitted yourself that you couldn't afford it.

I joined the Marines. As part of my contract with them there is a program in which I would contribute part of my paycheck and the employer (USMC) would also add to that total thus enabling me to have a savings for college. I didn't ask some tax payers to give me something for nothing. It was part of my pay for my service.
There is quite a large difference between taking a govt handout and taking your pay for working.

I also see you said that you joined the Marines so you could get a college education. Did you think that by joining the Marines you might have to kill people? Or was killing (or potentially killing) a few nameless people from another part of the world worth it as long as you got your education? You can jump on me all you like, but you didn't say you joined the armed forces to protect and serve your country, and that education was just a 'side benefit' - you gave it as your reason for joining.

That is...... wow, I don't know where to begin....

OK, well I joined the Marines for MANY reasons. Like the paycheck that I would receive for my service, for the death benefit my mother would receive if I was to have an unfortunate end, Like for the ability to send money home when I would get paid, like for the college tuition EARNINGS, protecting and serving my country, traveling the world, resume experience, testing myself etc, etc... in no particular order. yes, I thought that I may have to kill someone if it came to that in terms of protecting my country and my FREEDOM. If you have it then its worth fighting for. Definitely, should never give it up.

I didn't say he was 'like Hitler'. I was referring to the program Hitler had where he executed all the sick, disabled, and mentally handicapped citizens so the state didn't have to look after them (along with some other reasons).

Sounds like you think that these 'lesser' people are an unnecessary burden on the state. I remember someone else who had that idea back in the 30's and 40's - he just rounded them up and killed them. Maybe you could run for congress on that ticket?

I can only read that and take it that you were comparing me to hitler and having the same ideals. Sorry if that wasn't your intent but it sure came off that way.

My point was, and I could have made it better I agree, that how should a civilised society treat it's most vulnerable members? GM said that if you can't afford health care, then tough cookies you just have to suffer because people that can afford it shouldn't have to pay for those who can't. If they aren't allowed to be treated free (or heavily subsidised), then they probably will die young - and in the context of what I originally said there isn't a lot of difference. GM says "don't treat them" but doesn't give any other suggestions of what should be done with all those sick people - Hitler went a step further, and the only difference is that those people didn't live quite as long.

Please show me one place where I said any such thing.

Where did I say that someone should suffer if they can't afford health care?

Where did I say "don't treat them"?

I didn't say that at all. Not at all.

I did say that in America, if you are too poor to afford health insurance then you will be able to get medicaid. That is a govt handout to the needy in terms of health coverage.
I then went further and said that if you CAN afford health coverage but opt not to purchase it then get hurt/sick it isn't your neighbors responsibility to cover for you. It was your own choice and you have a responsibility with your freedom of choice. There are consequences to all of your decisions in life. Good and bad.

That is an awful situation - and I can guarantee it happens every minute of every day to families like yours. I'm very sorry that you had to go through all of that.

The part I cannot understand as regard to your views on universal health care, is that you received charity from others (the church) to help you along....surely that is a case of people who can afford things giving to those who cannot? You speak of this as somewhat of a 'blessing', which is was, but when it comes to applying it on a national scale via medicare etc you are dead against it.

That is because it is not "charity" in any form. It is not willingly given. It is govt CONFISCATION of one person's personal property forcefully then handed to another. I am and will always be against such things. It is a direct violation of freedoms and infringement on rights.

Please NEVER confuse govt seizure with charity. They are not even from the same planet.

You certainly know struggle. This is clear. So why would you want others to have to endure that kind of pain and sorrow when you could do something about it without it having a significant impact on your own situation. How can you think of you as that young lad in pain and not think "Geez I wish there was a proper health system where I could have had the medicine I needed regardless of how poor my family was"? Imagine how much better your young life could have been if every American who could afford it put a few dollars each year into the health system!

You had a tough start but you made it. Somehow you found an inner strength to take opportunities by the hand and become a fully-fledged taxpaying citizen. Unfortunately, not everyone knows how to find that inner strength and many never will - why punish them for not having the 'right' parents or the 'right' guidance?

firstly, I don't want others to endure ANY pain or suffering.

secondly, this is where we are failing to meet on the grid, My life would NOT have been as good if I lived in a society that forced people to give up their personal properties to the govt in order to redistribute it DIRECTLY to me. That would have made me many different things and I would not have known the beauty of freedom. It would have made my life a bit easier for a short period but it would not have made me grow up any better. Probably worse because every dollar I earned would have had more of it taken away from me later in life. I want to work for what I get and keep what I earn. I want to give to the charity of my choice to help my fellow man. It is NOT benevolent in any way to have the govt subsidize the lives of others.


lastly, I don't want to "punish" anyone or any such thing. The govt is NOT a charity group and should not be looked upon as such. I love the idea of charity. The govt is not that and nobody should be stolen from to facilitate it.

Here is a great quote:

A cruel form of hatred is to convince people that they are "helpless" to survive by their own initiative and power, and that they need the "goodwill" of redistributors to take what others have earned and transfer it to the Helpless. Sad, but this entitlement mentality destroys the value of good work, and disempowers the individual from fully realizing his potential. In essence, the welfare state is economic and psychological feudalism at its worst.

 

[greasemonkey]

Ok, I see, so it seems you are saying the socialist government programs that do exist aren't socialist because, um.... because...?

You want to claim that national defense, clean water, public roads etc is "protection" but then somehow exclude public health as some crazy leftist ideal. In reality you're just being typical in dividing the programs you do like vs the programs you don't and trying to reclassify them. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

READ the constitution for Goodness' sakes!!!

It spells out what the govt function is in the country in which you live. You live in America. We are supposed to abide by the constitution. If it says that the govt is to provide pink wigs then it should provide pink wigs. It doesn't though. It says exactly what I quoted earlier in this thread. And as such I don't mind the govt serving the basic functions it was built and INTENDED to do. That includes military, roadways, mint.....et al.

It does NOT include socialized programs like taking your neighbors money and paying for your health care. Or car care. Or home maintenance. Or hairdo.


so you keep acting as if the constitution equally would apply to the military and to social programs. it doesn't . Read it and you will stop asking such silly things. Like "because why"? The answer to your because why questions is because it is in the constitution.

 

[anniemac]

Greasemonkey,

I think you might finally be getting what I was trying to say. The system was and still is very broken. Actually from my perspective, the healthcare system is worse now since the 'new healthcare initiative' than it was 2 years ago.

I was not posting this for anyone's pity. I was stating facts as they affect me and mine. I am not seeing anything good coming from the healthcare reform now.

My son was also in the Marines, serving in Iraq. As such his medical is paid for as is yours. For his sake, I am very grateful for that. But even that is sub-par. What is wrong with the picture when our returning heroes are treated like second class citizens by the very country that they swore to defend with their life?

My postings are personal rants because I am just generally pissed about the way things are going. Please don't use my postings to call each other names etc. Not cool.

 

[voodookitty]

By the time Im old enough for Medicare and Social Security there wont be anything left. I may as well throw myself in a ditch when I turn 65

EXACTLY..... I was thinking to do the same! :nod:

Only, I am thinking to do it a few days before my 65th B-Day - that way, I won't be late!

 

[unhappy]

Yea i have to agree the US health care system sucks better off to move to Canada

 

[Jasminebed]

Most first world nations have some form of socialized, or universal medicine. The US doesn't, yet spends MORE money on healthcare per capita than any other nation in the world other than Japan (which does offer coverage to every citizen).

Humanitarian arguments aside, the current US health care system benefits private health providers and insurance companies much more than its citizens.

 

[greasemonkey]

Most first world nations have some form of socialized, or universal medicine. The US doesn't, yet spends MORE money on healthcare per capita than any other nation in the world other than Japan (which does offer coverage to every citizen).

Humanitarian arguments aside, the current US health care system benefits private health providers and insurance companies much more than its citizens.

I agree that some laws should be changed. Like why can someone from Arkansas NOT go outside of Arkansas to get insurance coverage? Interestingly a bill was introduced by conservatives to allow more competition (state vs. state competition) but was shot down. (Obama voted against it actually).

I do NOT think that the govt should get involved. As anniemac is pointing out, that is a road in which we don't want to go down or it will truly ruin our health care.

Yea i have to agree the US health care system sucks better off to move to Canada

While it may be expensive in America, it is also the most available and is among the most innovative.

You do realize that without the carrot dangling of profit that many of the medicines and procedures that we have today would not be invented/found right? it is the profit that drives our best and brightest innovators in the field. Humanitarianism is also part of it I am sure. But those minds would be lead to different paths if not for the prize of profits. That is how innovation comes about in anything really.

Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers and academics alike are beating the drum for a far larger government rôle in health care. Much of the public assumes their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. However, before turning to government as the solution, some unheralded facts about America's health care system should be considered.

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

* Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
* Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
* More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
* Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

Scott W. Atlas, M.D., is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a professor at the Stanford University Medical Center. A version of this article appeared previously in the February 18, 2009, Washington Times.

 

[BBKPoker]

Well its inarguable that technologically speaking the USA is a frontleader in medicine, afterall, its an industry driven by big pharmaceutical companies that profit by overcharging for medicine. The rest of the claims you just posted are fairly specious, especially the cancer mortality rates, since pretty much all of the countries listed have far lower rates of preventable illness, and you can cherry pick cancer statistics by countries that have higher than average instances pretty easily.

Here's the countries that were cited in your quote concluding the US has better healthcare than most other nations:

UK
Norway
Canada
Italy
Germany
The Netherlands
Australia
New Zealand

So how about we talk in specific overall metrics that actually accurately measure public health than by cherry picking specific statistics: all metrics are ranked best to worst:

Infant mortality rate

source:

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UK: 22nd, Norway: 5th, Canada 22nd, Italy 25th, Germany 14th, The Netherlands: 19th, Australia 17th, New Zealand 27th, USA 33rd (last of the compared countries)

Life expectancy:

source:

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Australia: 5th, Canada: 11th, Italy: 12th, New Zealand/Norway: 13th (tied), Netherlands: 16th (tied with Austria), United Kingdom/Germany: 20th(tied with Belgium, Malta, Virgin Islands), USA: 36th (last of the compared countries)

Highest Obesity rates:

source:

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USA (highest of compared countries)

Rate of preventable deaths:

Source:

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USA has the highest preventable rate of death among the 19 countries surveyed, of our comparison countries, only Australia was not included in th study.

Total Health Expenditure as % of GDP:

source:

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The only country worse than the US was Marshall Islands.

Physicians per 1000 population:

source:

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The USA is the 3rd worst of our comparison countries very slightly outranking New Zealand and Canada (US: 2.43, NZ 2.31, Canada 2.18).



The healthcare spending as a percent of GDP is actually particularly egregious (and yes, its tabulated prior to our universal healthcare) we actually spend 150% of where everyone else spends and come last in pretty much every measurable relevant healthcare metric.

But yeah, clearly nothing is wrong with our healthcare system when literally every other westernized country is paying less to be more healthy, in fact it is precisely the countries with socialized medicine that perform the best in global healthcare surveys, regardless of whatever lol anecdotal stories right wingers enjoy copy/pasting about someone they knew this one time (probably the 71 yo african american they invited out to lunch, lol!) who had to wait for some procedure, lolololol........

 

[BBKPoker]

My son was also in the Marines, serving in Iraq. As such his medical is paid for as is yours.

But then you also have to look at the actual quality of care veterans receive (another area republicans have tried to cut or block expanding for years).

My sister has done two tours in Iraq and tore the exact same muscle in both her knees in very similar injuries, one in the USA playing rugby in college where she received private care which included pain medication, physical therapy, and what she said was most important was a stretching device that exercised and strengthened her injured knee. In the army she ripped the same muscle in her other knee during a drill in a US base. She was given pain medication only and no rehabilitative measures were taken. As a result the knee that was cared for outside of the army is pretty close to 100% and her army cared for knee is painful and difficult to walk on or bend for her.

I actually think Veterans Rights is one of the most appallingly underfunded programs we have in the USA. People who defend our country and take care of others and protect their freedom should receive excellent care, but republicans will just continue to slash these programs as long as its politically expedient. Another perfect example was the right wing oppositon to the medical bill for 9/11 first responders to pay for some of their access to care that was all but dead until Jon Stewart began to talk about it daily on his show and brought on actual responders to talk about their medical difficulties post 9/11.

 

[greasemonkey]

Well its inarguable that technologically speaking the USA is a frontleader in medicine, afterall, its an industry driven by big pharmaceutical companies that profit by overcharging for medicine. The rest of the claims you just posted are fairly specious, especially the cancer mortality rates, since pretty much all of the countries listed have far lower rates of preventable illness, and you can cherry pick cancer statistics by countries that have higher than average instances pretty easily.

Here's the countries that were cited in your quote concluding the US has better healthcare than most other nations:

UK
Norway
Canada
Italy
Germany
The Netherlands
Australia
New Zealand

So how about we talk in specific overall metrics that actually accurately measure public health than by cherry picking specific statistics: all metrics are ranked best to worst:

Infant mortality rate

source:

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UK: 22nd, Norway: 5th, Canada 22nd, Italy 25th, Germany 14th, The Netherlands: 19th, Australia 17th, New Zealand 27th, USA 33rd (last of the compared countries)

Life expectancy:

source:

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Australia: 5th, Canada: 11th, Italy: 12th, New Zealand/Norway: 13th (tied), Netherlands: 16th (tied with Austria), United Kingdom/Germany: 20th(tied with Belgium, Malta, Virgin Islands), USA: 36th (last of the compared countries)

Highest Obesity rates:

source:

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USA (highest of compared countries)

Rate of preventable deaths:

Source:

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USA has the highest preventable rate of death among the 19 countries surveyed, of our comparison countries, only Australia was not included in th study.

Total Health Expenditure as % of GDP:

source:

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The only country worse than the US was Marshall Islands.

Physicians per 1000 population:

source:

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The USA is the 3rd worst of our comparison countries very slightly outranking New Zealand and Canada (US: 2.43, NZ 2.31, Canada 2.18).



The healthcare spending as a percent of GDP is actually particularly egregious (and yes, its tabulated prior to our universal healthcare) we actually spend 150% of where everyone else spends and come last in pretty much every measurable relevant healthcare metric.

But yeah, clearly nothing is wrong with our healthcare system when literally every other westernized country is paying less to be more healthy, in fact it is precisely the countries with socialized medicine that perform the best in global healthcare surveys, regardless of whatever lol anecdotal stories right wingers enjoy copy/pasting about someone they knew this one time (probably the 71 yo african american they invited out to lunch, lol!) who had to wait for some procedure, lolololol........

You actually prove my point a few times.

lets take a few shots here:

1) Are you really going to say that obesity in America compared with other nations is because of the healthcare system? Are you sure its not because we are the most wealthy country ? Look DEEEEEEEPER into the obesity rate. Find out how much of our "impoverished" that get social benefits are actually OBESE. LOL@that. Our poor are overwhelmingly obese. How do the other countries "poor" rank on the obesity meter?
That looks silly. Obesity has NOTHING to do with healthcare and everything to do with finances and availability.

2) You readily admit that we have more avalability to early prevention and screenings. BEAUTIFUL! That means it is BETTER, not that it cannot be used because other countries don't have it.

Hey, how about us Americans quit guessing and arguing. Let's take a look at what a member of the EU parliament might advise us on about health care, like in the UK:

 

[BBKPoker]

ok, so you are complaining about my list of obesity, but ignoring the fact that we have the highest infant mortality rate, lowest life expectancy, highest rate of preventable death despite spending more on health care than essentially any other country and somehow don't think the current system is broke, or that our health care especially in light of how much we spend on it isn't worse than practically any other westernized country with socialized medicine that beats us in every metric, and instead of actually paying attention to the inarguable unbiased statistics I've posted, you're just going to youtube link more right wing anecdotal rhetoric on the worst political entertainment (NOT news) channel while completely ignoring hard data.

okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Reality calling......

 

[BBKPoker]

Interesting to note, btw, that Daniel Hannan is as close as you can get to the UK version of a neo conservative that exists, has pretty much only had a career that existed on Fox (has been on pretty much every Fox "commentator" show including Beck, Hannity, Cavuto etc) and that again is your one anecdotal opinion source from fox news with no actual statistical data backing up your arguments.

By the way, Hannity isn't a news show, its an entertainment show along with Beck, O'Reilly, and pretty much everyone who is a known personality on Fox News according to Fox News themselves.

So, so standard.

 

[BBKPoker]

2) You readily admit that we have more avalability to early prevention and screenings. BEAUTIFUL! That means it is BETTER, not that it cannot be used because other countries don't have it.

I did not say that anywhere in any of my posts, actually. I said the USA was technologically more advanced than most other countries in the medical industry. I did NOT say that we have more availability to early prevention and screenings. There is a huge difference between having the technology available, and actually using it to service the public and improve the countries health which is something we are NOT doing due to the overwhelming cost of the healthcare industry and the financial obstacles created by big pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

We could have all the equipment in the world, but if you can't afford to get a checkup or proper medical care (as many americans can't) then it might as well be worthless if it isn't being used. If we actually made healthcare affordable and (gasp) carry through with the passed health care legislation which limits to an extent the amount an insurance company can prey on people's health to inflate their profits by overcharging and denying sick people, then yes, we have the POTENTIAL to be far better than we currently are. Of course the idea that health in the United States could ever improve at the expense of corporate stockholders having their margins cut is so objectionable to republicans that they are making every effort to defund it, but at the moment it looks like they will not be successful.

 

[silcnlayc]

I will say one thing. You keep repeating infant mortality rate . You do know that the reason for this is not because of lack of healthcare right? But because so many teens and young mothers do not go for prenatal care by CHOICE?? How do I know this? I was one of those "teens" that chose no prenatal care with my first child.

When one is young, they feel invincible. Nothing can make someone do something they do not want to do. Forcing people to purchase healthcare, go to the doctors and such is a CHOICE , not a right. When will we require that people become self reliant again?

My husband and I both work 40-60 hours a week and he is of retirement age, but has not retired. We pay for our healthcare and always have, for our family. It is extremely costly at this time since I was diagnosed a diabetic and have had 4 major back surgeries, (I have a scar running down my back from my neck to my hip) but I still choose to work to keep my healthcare. We do not go to movies, dine out or travel. We choose to pay for our insurance.

I have been asked why I do not go on to disability. My answer, as long as there is breath in my body I will work until I no longer can walk. I was supoosed t be in a wheelchair when I hit 45 (first surgery was at 28) but I have long surpassed that.

I , too was on drugs for excruciating pain more times than I can count, laid up a year in the hospital and such. But because my healthcare was availalbe, I can now continue in the lifestyle I choose and that is to work and be a contributing Naturalized citizen. The cost of my healthcare? $800 a month. Do I get angry for this, no. It is what it is and I choose to make sure my quality of life is as good as I can make it till I can no longer do it.

We all have choices. Healthcare IS a choice. Not a right. JMO.

.

 

[greasemonkey]

ok, so you are complaining about my list of obesity, but ignoring the fact that we have the highest infant mortality rate, lowest life expectancy, highest rate of preventable death despite spending more on health care than essentially any other country and somehow don't think the current system is broke, or that our health care especially in light of how much we spend on it isn't worse than practically any other westernized country with socialized medicine that beats us in every metric, and instead of actually paying attention to the inarguable unbiased statistics I've posted, you're just going to youtube link more right wing anecdotal rhetoric on the worst political entertainment (NOT news) channel while completely ignoring hard data.

okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Reality calling......

NO. NO. you are not getting it again. I was making one small point to show you that your "statistics" have very, very little to do with health care. They have everything to do with other things.


LIKE:
Obesity is not health care, it is economical.
Infant mortality rate was summed up by silknlayc.

Life expectancy????

How about Violence in society? Well we have lots of young people killed and that die in accidents because american society is more aggressive. What does that have to do with health care? What do inner city shootings have to do with health care? ok then.

Did you know that Hispanics outlive blacks IN AMERICA by almost 8 years per person??? Why is that? Is it that they get better health care? ummmmm NOOOOO, it is genetics. We have a larger variety of cultures. Did you know that in american hispanics outlive asians who outlive whites who outlive blacks? WHY is that again? it has nothing to do with different levels of health care. Health care means nothing in these situations.

We have bad habits (eating, exercising, drugs, smoking....etc) more so than other countries. Again, nothing to do with health care.

 

[anniemac]

Silc,

I am glad you can work with your back problems. And I am glad you can pay for your insurance. Good for you. My guy would gladly be working now if he could. He took much pride in the fact that he was a Master Machinist and could walk into any business and be hired on the spot. His whole self worth, in his eyes, was based on this ability. He was told by the Texas Rehabilitation Agency as well as Social Security that he could not be rehabilitated in order to do some other kind of work because of his age, would be a waste of money. And now, no one would hire him anyway because of his back and he cannot pass a drug test. Do not presume to think that he wants to be on disability.

FYI, Medicare is not free. He has a premium taken out of his check each month to pay for it and he also has to pay a co-pay each and every doctor visit. He also pays $82 a month for prescription insurance as this is not covered by Medicare. This is above what was taken out of his paycheck as mandated by the government when he was able to work. As I have said before, there is a difference in Medicare and Medicaid. He does not qualify for Medicaid because he makes too much money.

My reason for posting at all was to point out a broken system that is getting worse from my perspective. I sincerely hope that those of you here who have taken the 'moral highground' never have depend on any government agency for help. I hope you will continue to live your life as you are now.

But if you ever have to have assistance, well, good luck with that too.

 

[silcnlayc]

anniemac: Do not presume to think that he wants to be on disability.

I do not presume anything anniemac. I may have said it badly, but I was pointing out that but for the fact that I have very good insurance that I could choose, that paid for all my surgeries during the many times I needed it to help me keep the quality of life I wanted to keep, I could be in the very unfortunate position as your husband without it.

At the time he was hurt, he had no insurance

I do not believe in universal health insurance. I still have family over in europe and they are miserable. The wait that they must endure is unbelievable to have any quality care at all. Some have waited over a year for heart medication because you must see the doctors for refills since it is such a specialized drug. ( I do not know what it is but they write about this all the time, the waiting)

I undertand about your husband wanting to work. I really do. That is why I went through the struggles of multiple surgeries so I could work. It gives me self worth and pride also. If that were taken away, I too, would be crushed as is your husband I believe. I was told I had a very high thresheld for pain and I believe that is my other saving grace. I do wish your husband better health. I would never wish that kind of pain on anyone since I know how it feels.

Universal healthcare is NOT the answer IMO. AFFORDABLE healthcare that one can choose from IMO is the answer for everyone.

.

 

[Nifty29]

Geez Silc - $800 a month???

That is crazy. I really feel for you being taken for a ride by the medical profession (which is what it amounts to since most of the HMOs are owned by doctors).

I can get the absolute top hospital cover with premium extras here for around $200 per month. Or, of course, I can just go to the public hospital for free....yes there are waiting lists for elective and non-urgent procedures, but if you need surgery today urgently you will get it. I can also get free dental.

When you consider the GDP of the US vs Australia, it's incredible to think that the US Government can't provide some kind of medical cover for every citizen (whether it be free public care or subsidised private care like Silc suggested - either is a good option IMO)

As an outsider following this thread, I'm would be amazed if anyone seriously thought the US healthcare system is good one.

A system where there isn't equal opportunity for every citizen just isn't right IMO. ( as I said not necessarily free)

If I were someone in the US with health issues that were going to cost me a fortune, or that I possibly could never afford to fix, I would consider moving out here and becoming a citizen.


P.S. I thought 'blacks' was a derogatory/racist term these days? Aren't we supposed to say "African Americans"?