Malta Gaming Authority

[Solaris]

That's true that you mentioned some signs which can address somebody to be at least high risk problem gambler (sorry, you asked that i assumed your case was about problem gambling and casinos responsibilities when was reading that link CM added in his post, apologies if i was mistaking), and casinos are really following player behavior from their different reports, many including to these things you mentioned, loads of deposits in short time, time spent online, cancelling most of withdrawals and other marks which could be red flag for problem gambling. Many operators are closing players accounts if playing is getting really extreme, but it's not that easy to just simply decide that one have so severe problem that self-exclusion or closing account is only thing to do, what then if player is coming back and demand to get account opened?

This was a long and well well written post

No worries, I just wanted to know where you got that from. I really would use myself as an example for many of the elements in this conversation as I've experienced a lot during some years now, if you don't mind.
Openess is a key to evolving in my opinion.

To answer the first question it might be a forced grade of cool off period depending on the grade of extreme playing. Pop-ups are associated with something you'd remove fast. (those "you have been playing for and lost...." etc.)
It is quite certain that a person would "get back to reality" thinking what he exactly are doing after some hours of playing, but then the question leads to how that would benefit casinos.
What do you think?

When the rules are turning more strict, the casinos needs to evolve in other ways or else the income would be less. They need to board more players by making gambling more accepted and maybe have lower payouts/jackpots.
There are of course multiple of other factors to consider how to run business. These are just two examples.
But anyhow they need to make profits and they can't afford stricter rules without evolving accordingly.

My experience with MGA is that they are rather boring and not interested in the players complaints. I've been fairly polite and objective in my dialogue, but they seem uninterested in responding to detailed questions and documentations.
They replied the what the casino sent them and blindly believed the casino which actually lied to them on many factors about me.
There are a bunch of articles (which I have mentioned here before) that they certain people have been accused of corruption.
MGA just seems like a shady and actually dull organisation that tries to paint their grey walls by using nice and "correct" words on their not so updated website.
If you read their Code of Ethics it does not resemble at all what my experiences is with them.
A funny story was that after two and a half month sending a mail to them every second week to ask about my process in my complaint I never recieved an answer.
I was maybe just expecting a "We are working on it". Then I contacted them by chat and I got to chat with this "lovely" person that was directly rude to me and said that they recieve 80 compalints a week and they can't reply every mail.
I had sent them 5 follow-up mails and it takes 30 seconds to write"Working on it" or whatever. I told them an answer would surely remove any doubts and misunderstandings and I wished her a great weekend. Got no reply.
Wish I'd saved the transcript.
Code of Ethics failed on all parts..

Those source of wealth checks I have never experienced since in Norway they haven't done this ever, but I think they can be easily manipulated and they are also a step in the wrong direction for the "normal" players and for the casinos.
It is a turn off.

Addiction must be fought in every country and I think no one should benefit of a persons addictions as he looses control and actually are in dire need of help. No matter what kind of addiction it might be.

A problem gambler will always find a casino to play on, that is for sure. But he is responsible as well as the casino, 50/50 in my opinion. The casinos have the experience and know when things gets out of hand, there is no denying that. But the player needs to learn it by experience. When I first started playing heavily (some years ago) I got a very nice and polite VIP-manager who assisted me and provided me with small bonuses each time:
I complained about slots, when I didn't play for a while and on my pay check days.
It took me a while to learn how cynical this process actually was and I know this person had some bonuses on his salary from me. Quite sickening and I still read more and more stories where I and casinos fit in.

Sorry if I didnt make myself clear on the Customer Service part. They could never hire psychiatrics, but A.I in the future will (I have worked with it so I feel a little educated on it) work better than the Customer Service Agents in this case, or at least work in tandem. They have their directions on what a possible problem gambler would write or say and do their job accordingly, but again in my case I have been fed with bonuses each time I complain even on detailed levels to make me play more. And recieveing this info about "play safely limits". But what are really the statistics on those limits a player can set? How many problem gamblers use them? Why should they even exist? If you are a problem gambler, you should not play at all, and that could be said about any addiction. Forcing a person to only drink two glasses of beer instead of 6 makes him crave for more and puts him in a state of anxiety and/or annoyed mind. He needs to completely stop.

There will always be harms one way or another with advanced systems, but it needs to forced on the casinos by rules. And I think it would help many people. I don't think any casino would choose this of moral and ethical choices.
Maria Casino knew I was a problem gambler and still wanted me onboard (could prove it with tons of documentations). The biggest problem was that I did not know I was, and no one around me.

About fairness in slots...This is a very big topic to cover, but here is my thoughts.
If a slot is "aimed" by the operator to pay out around 96% it is not what you'd call true random because it has a forced aim for rtp.
There are still heavy discussions in the lovely math world if it is ever possible for a computer to generate true randomness by definition. It is based on gazillions of spins that you'd never be able to spin unless you spin 24/7, but then again you should be considered a problem gambler if you did so...
But it is random enough to make a balance of 10000€ dissappear in very short time if you'd play as an example 30€ bets. I did this after winning 10000€ over a month by gradually buliding balance on may bet levels.
It was hell winning those 10000€ over one month, playing in car, playing in toilet, loosing a lot, winning a lot, all bets was approx. average on 4€. Even smoked too many cigarettes during that period
But I bloody did it and felt so proud that my willpower brought me there. Now I can move mountains I thought. Just play a few more spins...loose 1000€, no worries, loose 2000€. 45 min passed. What is happening?
And then choosing the slot that ALWAYS brought mey balance back on 3€ bets for some "random" reason. Playing 30€ bets and 7000€ lost within half an hour. Gave me two features, 14x and 32x the bet (remembering it clearly)
and some piss poor spins.
Never happened through a whole month on that slot, why now as I was playing 30€ bets? Now I don't use the word rigged, but what do you think a man thinks when this happens? From being a greek god on a mountain to become a fish in bowl
for some casino company. Well, he runs to his most dearest ex and gets comfort....and it helps a little.
The rest of my playing career was just loss after loss.

A fair slot could be something like:
-Forced cool off
-More features because people tend to quit the slot when hitting one
-Having a loss limit that resets after a certain period of time
-Decrease the teaser elements (ever played those horrible Red Tiger games? Extreme example I know )
-Having features that does not pay 0x or those ridiculous 1x-10x the bet. Nothing provokes a player more when played 300 psins and the feature finally lands and then...
-Not allowing slots to have buy features.
-And last but not least remove Yggdrasil as game provider as they turned into the most cheesy provider I have experienced (loved Nirvana, Seasons, Vikings go Berzeerk and B&B when they actually gave features though, and yes had many big wins).

Hope it is not too many personal aspects of this and hope we are not too off topic. I am not against gambling if you'd think so, but I do believe that after a long time of research reading stories, being up to date about the industy, playing fake money spins, having dialogue with gamblers and non-gamblers I have learned a lot and it interests me aswell as I can see it interests you.
I want fairness and protection for the weak players in my utopian world. The strong and normal players will manage and by all means let them have a blast gambling.


PS: Sorry if my English is not perfect.


Cheers

 

[EbertScore]

I don’t know the specifics about your case, and I’m not commenting on it directly. But I will mention my experience with LeoVegas and their pro-active ability they took when it came to problem gamblers. Thankfully I am not a problem gambler, and I am not on any exclusion lists. However, as a gambler I certainly understand the angst and problems which do arise from someone who cannot stop playing.

I would say it would be extremely dangerous if the casino got to decide whose the problem gambler and who isn’t. “Oh you won €40,000? You must be a problem gambler. We have to lock your account and seize your winnings.” Having the casino decide is not a good idea. Ultimately it is up to the player, whose an adult, to set their limits and be responsible. If they are unable to stop or set limits for themselves, they need to seek treatment.

As far as LeoVegas is concerned, I would sometimes play for hours and they would have a box pop up in the middle of my sessions that said “you’ve been playing for xyz time and are +/- €xyz. Maybe it’s time to take a break? Would you like to continue playing?”

I actually thought that was a very responsible, and good idea to implement to give people a sense of how long they were playing and possibly help someone who may be struggling to stop. It also surprised me since a casino was asking someone if they wanted to stop playing? It certainly caught me off guard. At the end of the day though, the ultimate responsibility lies with the adult behind the screen engaging in gambling activity. The customer is the one who needs to be an adult and set their limits.

 

[Slottery]

Many parts i agree at least at some level, recognizing problem gamblers and try to offer support and close account is way to go when playing is not fun anymore and cause you troubles, financially or just spending way too much time which is off from your "normal life". What i got from your story (i'm not asking any details more than you told, no need to go to all details as it's your private experience which don't need to be shared in public forum), i will agree based on this information that casino could have dealt better with in such situation when somebody is playing really big and lose this kind of amounts in half an hour (even they were winnings you were able to win at first place, after that raising bet size and playing it back in a moment is quite red flag for many), they should really check with you that you are in control of your playing and even if you have been depositing lot lately, demand to set yourself some limits in order to keep your account open (just impossible to judge particular case with limited knowledge about it but how i understood this happened) instead of offer bonuses for somebody who have lost a lot in short time. Many times it's very line written in water who is VIP player and who problem gambler because behavior can be very similar (high deposit, active player etc...) difference is and will be realized at some point hopefully, who can and who can't afford that.

These SOW check will for sure coming to be part of your gaming experience as well, sooner or later. That will help casino understand your financial situation (what really is something many don't want to share with some online casino operator, like you can see from topics here all around), anything can be manipulated, but if you are provide your few month payslips together with bank statement from few months, proof of selling property or any other documents which show your real economic situation and these are manipulated and faked, then i can't really blame casinos anymore, bit too much to expect operators to be Interpol or something to find out all information about all single player, who would like casino to call to your company and ask proof from them that you are working there with this salary? You can always blame addiction make player to do that, but again, sounds bit too extended research for casinos to assume that all how play little bit higher bets and deposit more than average are problem gamblers and giving false information when requested (you said it should be 50/50, casino/player and IMO we really start to be in that part, something what you suggest it will make it almost 100% casinos responsibility even player when requested is providing fake information, these games are for adults only who should be able to handle problems better than more vulnerable teenagers).

Still to add to that particular case you mentioned when you lost thousands in 10 minutes, that i would call mission impossible to casino to stop, or only way would be to block players automatically for certain time when somebody have lost X amount within Y time when have deposited Z withing Q time frame. Then you can really as a casino be sure that player in question will contact you in minute or less and is furious that don't have access to money on account even would want to play with money won and wishing to win very big and therefore raised bet size, some who win 5-10 000€ for example can do that and are ok and accepting that it's much bigger chance to lose it all than make it to 50-100 000€.

I still stay in my opinion, that when casino recognize possible problem gambler, player should be contacted to check he/she is ok as something concerning was seen when account was reviewed and highly recommend to look at and set some limits to account which help to keep playing fun with and exiting as some players even can end up winning which why we play these machines, fill up Euro Million coupons etc... And from there start players part, if player is not admitting that anything is wrong and is happy of level of playing, cancelling withdrawals that don't need to make other deposit as wanted still play, there have to be very extreme things happened on account that casino should close it, but again when interacting with possible problem gambler with big losses, correct way is not to straight away offer some cashback or deposit bonus before that responsible gaming and limits part.

Slots are what they are, there are quite many different types of games available where one who is interested and enjoy playing slots, should find some favorite games, or at least game providers make they best to make games players like to play as every spin bring them some revenue. These special features are very different and payout as well, if you play some high volatility game, you really can end up to lose your balance almost faster than it took to make a deposit, but winning potential is also quite big when we start to talk over 1000 times your bet. Other low volatility games you will get these features more often but you are quite sure that you don't make fortune from one special feature, was it good or not. That's also quite wrong assumption that if you have had luck in some game, you would keep having that, i think most of us in this forum who play slots have nice experience of endless dead spins with hardly any feature and once getting it, really poor payout. These games are played at same time through many many different sites, from casinos front end you click spin button and it will be forwarded to game providers game, just with details of your bet that it can be done with correct size, coin value and what ever can be chosen in different games, any player information is not sent in that packet so game itself don't really know that it's your spin and will complete it based on games algorithm and send back result, your wallet where your balance is updating on site is updated by casinos back end accordingly to result of game round, sent from game provider. We also are all different players, some like many different features, but year after year you see games like Dead or Alive, Starburst and many other very simple games to be very popular, DoA have quite nice winning potential, spins are fast and you can end up to loose your balance in very short moment, but for many players, here also, it's one game to go I just only play games i like to, i don' either like to buy features but i just leave these games for others to play, which is quite simple.

Adding forced timeouts or loss limits to games.... Where would you add it? If one player can easily with smile on face lose 5000€ every month when for some 200€ is too much to, also for timely manner, i've been playing quite extended game sessions when it have been rainy outside, having work trip somewhere and laying down in hotel room together with my luggage, so one of bit limited activities to kill time can be playing slots and i wouldn't be really happy if my game play in some slot or in whole casino would be forced to stop. Probably still would have some balance there what i couldn't use and just forced to deposit to other site which offer my few favorite games.

No comments about Yggdrasil, they are just one provider, their games really are working like in information page of game says. Casinos or even game providers still don't have that secret RTP button to make games give less winnings and even less possible for certain player as server where game is running will can't know who players spin what spin is, as said earlier, only necessary information sent there in packet which don't contain any personal information where identify player. When you lose, and do very bad compare to your previous sessions where you ended up to be lucky, you easily feel that something happened for game, there are many posts for rigged games or they stop paying out and what so ever, but don't even want to start about that topic as never have seen anything else but players complaining that this game is not paying out like it should..... We all know that you lose and win, but without conspiracy theories

 

[Solaris]

I don’t know the specifics about your case, and I’m not commenting on it directly. But I will mention my experience with LeoVegas and their pro-active ability they took when it came to problem gamblers. Thankfully I am not a problem gambler, and I am not on any exclusion lists. However, as a gambler I certainly understand the angst and problems which do arise from someone who cannot stop playing

EbertScore I am truly happy you yourself haven't experienced the darker side of gambling for a longer period.

The casinos obviously already decide who is a problem gambler or not by many factors, but it needs to be done even more professional in the future which I commented more specific on in last posts.
This pop-up box does not exist for a problem gambler. But it benefits more than it hurts of course.

I am certain many casinos wouldn't exist if adults were responsible about how they spend their money. Most might not exist at all.
All about balance in life.


“Make money your god, and it will plague you like the devil.”
-Henry Fielding

Many parts i agree at least at some level, recognizing problem gamblers and try to offer support and close account is way to go when playing is not fun anymore and cause you troubles, financially or just spending way too much time which is off from your "normal life". What i got from your story (i'm not asking any details more than you told, no need to go to all details as it's your private experience which don't need to be shared in public forum), i will agree based on this information that casino could have dealt better with in such situation when somebody is playing really big and lose this kind of amounts in half an hour (even they were winnings you were able to win at first place, after that raising bet size and playing it back in a moment is quite red flag for many), they should really check with you that you are in control of your playing and even if you have been depositing lot lately, demand to set yourself some limits in order to keep your account open (just impossible to judge particular case with limited knowledge about it but how i understood this happened) instead of offer bonuses for somebody who have lost a lot in short time. Many times it's very line written in water who is VIP player and who problem gambler because behavior can be very similar (high deposit, active player etc...) difference is and will be realized at some point hopefully, who can and who can't afford that.

Yes, we do agree. The casinos needs to recognize problem gamblers on a higher level and be even more responsible.
But it should not be unfair for their business.

If you need details just ask. I will be quite open about it.
They could have dealt better with my case definitely. They contacted me after about two months of playing a lot, but I didn't loose so much during that period.
It was this guy talking on phone just being generic in his questions and I thought it was fine they called. I tried to talk about other things that I had questions about.
Bonuses, how the business works, how often new slots are released etc.
But not contacting me after the heavy loss which was two months later seems to me to be a contradiction to how they opearte being a "responsible" casino.
You can bet I have complained several times since I started playing and before that loss and after, and every time I got a mix of these:
"I understand your frustration / it is normal to loose 7000€ in average each month / here is a 100€ bonus to calm you down / play responsible / I've checked with the provider and your spins have no errors" (yeah right they checked...)

Now, I do not think casinos should be Interpool, I was just commenting/questioning the effectiveness of SOW. Hopefully it is.

For the big loss in short time, it is not something I am mad for now. If you had a formula which you mentioned, you could have implemented it as a failsafe for maybe preventing stupid actions like I did.
This is all about the ones that are in the danger zone of spending beyond their control, and it is a massive growing base, that is why it needs heavy focus.
And do you think it should exist a fast spin button? They even differ so much between providers.
To sum this heavy loss up I think the player are responsible of course, but it does not take responsibility away from the provider of the product that CAN and WILL make many people addicted.
It is not only about the slots how they operate and how much you loose and win, but it also about how the VIP-agents etc. handle you as a customer/player.

When you choose to deposit money at a casino you have made a contract with the casino.
You buy an experience/investement that is not certain.
It is more certain that you will loose your investement than make it become profitable by statistics and odds.
Over time and the more you invest it's even less probable to make all investements turn into profit by statistics and odds.

Agree with you that casinos should contact players yes, but also evolve in that area. Everything can be set into a more and more robust system when needed.

I think I played over thousands of different slots so I know most providers that are avaiable in Europe at least.
Thank you for informing me on how volatility works and DoA...

For forced timouts or loss limits, they do exist as a players choice on most casinos, but not in the slots themselves?
There could be a lovely formula here as well. I am not giving a concrete conclusion, just providing ideas and thoughts.

Let's just see what happens the next five or so years. Where is gambling headed? Will it be more accetable? More problem gamblers?
More controlled by the government like here in Norway where foreign casinos actually is not allowed to transfer money?
The law from 2017 May says that foreign casinos can't send or recieve money from norwegians, but the casinos are always a step ahead of these amateurs (sorry to say so) using other payment providers.
In Norway the government wants all gambling activity to be controlled by the Norsk Tipping (Norwegian Betting) which is a ridiculous state organisation with the worst slots/games you'd ever play and structure wise.
No wonder people here are running to more professional providers.

I was being a little ironic about Yggdrasil, but they are becoming more cheesy and casualised. They have to in order to valid my point of making gambling more accepted and reach the masses.
Yes casinos have a RTP-button, it is not a secret one; i.e Play'N Go slots have different RTP across casino sites.
Let's not about rigged games unless you want to play hundreds of thousands of spins on Vikings go Berzerk with me on real money
"Choose a treasure chest" Love it when you get a choice that is predermined and it does not say in the manual
Great music in the slot though

“He who loses money, loses much; He who loses a friend, loses much more; He who loses faith, loses all.”
-
Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[Slottery]

It seems that we both are bit repeating ourselves, and maybe bit off topic as well As said, i fully agree with you that recognizing problem gamblers and monitoring player behavior from different reports and other possible signs is important and they shouldn't be playing if they are not in control themselves, just recognizing them and throw all responsibility to casinos is bit tough, if player is contacted, asked that he/she is ok and recommend to use limits available but player deny to have any problems, it really need then some extreme signs of really severe gambling problem to take up decision to close or self-exclude players account and the fact that people have very different economical situations, you probably have much more money than i do so where that line will be if one player have fortune of millions or even hundred thousands and other one working with small salary (like me), i can say that for me it hearts if i lose one or two thousand euros in short time, but for other person that might be just fun playing, there is not kind of one size fit to all concept where to make these limits to take that big action like close account even player refuse to admit it.

But let's see what in near future will happen when demands of due diligence checks including SOW is more strict and demanded, for UK it is already quite (even too far if you ask from many here and elsewhere) strict and player protection have been taking quite big steps everywhere if you compare online casinos 5 years ago, Rome was not built in a day and i afraid there is not silver bullet what would solve problem gambling issues 100% sure, believe or not, many casino operators are making quite much effort on this. Automatic account blocks are just really harsh to do for players (again with these extreme occasions) who lost X amount in Z time, line where you make it can be much for me but pocket money for you some other person. You said that it should be up from both, player and casino, haven't really see where players responsibility is if denying to have any issues when requested, faking financial situation etc.... these suggestions seems more to throw it all for casinos to follow and stop people playing and in kind of scenario it feels not 100% right to demand it when there is no any cooperation from player to admit having some problems.

By that "secret RTP button" i meant that casino or game provider can just make some one to lose, was just a joke as you hear it quite often. Game provider don't really care who is winning because always somebody is and they have no control on it who it will be. All operators are demanded to advise about games RTP accordingly, they can't just change it on daily basis how ever they feel to, it's quite transparent.

But that's it from me about this topic, i hope you see some improvements about online casino operations which can help vulnerable people, but making it 100% bullet proof will always be impossible

 

[Solaris]

It seems that we both are bit repeating ourselves, and maybe bit off topic as well As said, i fully agree with you that recognizing problem gamblers and monitoring player behavior from different reports and other possible signs is important and they shouldn't be playing if they are not in control themselves, just recognizing them and throw all responsibility to casinos is bit tough, if player is contacted, asked that he/she is ok and recommend to use limits available but player deny to have any problems, it really need then some extreme signs of really severe gambling problem to take up decision to close or self-exclude players account and the fact that people have very different economical situations, you probably have much more money than i do so where that line will be if one player have fortune of millions or even hundred thousands and other one working with small salary (like me), i can say that for me it hearts if i lose one or two thousand euros in short time, but for other person that might be just fun playing, there is not kind of one size fit to all concept where to make these limits to take that big action like close account even player refuse to admit it.

But let's see what in near future will happen when demands of due diligence checks including SOW is more strict and demanded, for UK it is already quite (even too far if you ask from many here and elsewhere) strict and player protection have been taking quite big steps everywhere if you compare online casinos 5 years ago, Rome was not built in a day and i afraid there is not silver bullet what would solve problem gambling issues 100% sure, believe or not, many casino operators are making quite much effort on this. Automatic account blocks are just really harsh to do for players (again with these extreme occasions) who lost X amount in Z time, line where you make it can be much for me but pocket money for you some other person. You said that it should be up from both, player and casino, haven't really see where players responsibility is if denying to have any issues when requested, faking financial situation etc.... these suggestions seems more to throw it all for casinos to follow and stop people playing and in kind of scenario it feels not 100% right to demand it when there is no any cooperation from player to admit having some problems.

By that "secret RTP button" i meant that casino or game provider can just make some one to lose, was just a joke as you hear it quite often. Game provider don't really care who is winning because always somebody is and they have no control on it who it will be. All operators are demanded to advise about games RTP accordingly, they can't just change it on daily basis how ever they feel to, it's quite transparent.

But that's it from me about this topic, i hope you see some improvements about online casino operations which can help vulnerable people, but making it 100% bullet proof will always be impossible

We agree on many aspects

If you'd know how I totally wrecked my economy over three years, you'd be really surprised, but as long as faith is there a man can keep going.

My long term goal in life (being not very far from 40 years old) I do want to work with addiction and especially gambling addiction.
I am currently a little off that in my profession, but I do think I have lot of experience on the humanity level from past jobs and current job, and
of course heavy addiction experience.

Thank you for the discussions and your viewpoints Slottery.
It is nice to be able to discuss this for me and hopefully for others on a decent level.
And I am sorry if we went too far off OP's topic.