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Your Input Please It's Official - Online Bookies Don't Want Winners!

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by dunover, Oct 18, 2015.

    Oct 18, 2015
  1. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    International Money Launderer
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    We've seen a few posts here on CM regarding online sites refusing or restricting bets - it appears it's endemic:

    Bookmakers are "refusing to take bets" from successful gamblers.

    Some clients have told the BBC they've had their betting accounts closed or their bets "restricted" following wins.

    Bookmakers say they limit bets from a minority of customers to ensure good odds are available to everyone.

    Neil Smith, a teacher from Yorkshire, says he's had around 450 online accounts closed. One bookmaker restricted the amount he could bet, and only allowed a 10 pence bet on a 4/1 horse. He said: "They will just say: 'Sorry our traders have deemed your betting pattern to be unprofitable and we're a business'.

    "They shouldn't be advertising a product that's not available to everybody. The flipside of this is they are trying to squeeze money out of people who they are know are profitable. If you're good, you can't win long-term, it's as simple as that."

    Campaigners are calling for the gambling authorities in the UK to force bookmakers to accept all bets up to a limit - a move which has recently been imposed on bookmakers in Australia - and make it clear to all players that restrictions may be imposed.

    Gamblers have told the BBC that they suspect that people's betting patterns are being tracked

    Peter Ling runs the Secret Betting Club, an independent gambling advice service. He says the bookmakers are using ever more sophisticated IT to identify likely winners, and is campaigning for a more equal playing field.

    "Five years ago it used to be a badge of honour for serious punters to be restricted, and you would have to win some substantial sums to get a letter or email like that," he said. "But these days it's all too common.

    "And it's not just people like me or my members, but your regular Joe Punters who are having the occasional bet, and are having some success, are finding themselves restricted."

    He surveyed his 850 members to find out who had accounts closed or "restricted" to a small percentage of the stake they wanted to wager. Three quarters of respondents reported that one company sought to regularly restrict bets to a few pounds. Half said another firm had closed their accounts.

    Cooling attitude

    5 Live Investigates spoke to gamblers who suspect sophisticated software programs which are used to combat fraud are also being used to track people's betting patterns online or check whether they are using comparison sites.

    Two told the BBC they had accounts closed with one bookmaker before they'd even put a bet on. The Association of British Bookmakers said they were unable to comment on the allegation.

    5 Live Investigates has been told some High Street shops are also on the alert to identify the smartest gamblers and restrict the bets they can put on.

    Neil Smith says he has been banned. One shop told him it was because they'd had a handwriting expert compare his betting slips with previous winning bets.

    One shop manager who wished to remain anonymous said the company encouraged staff to screen-out successful gamblers: "They grade. If they are a serious backer of horses and clearly know what they are doing with the odds then we don't want them at all - the orders are 'get rid of him or let him have a have a few quid on the starting price only'."

    Paddy Power shop in Central LondonImage copyright EPA
    Image caption
    Paddy Power says it manages financial risk like all businesses

    Customers have told 5 Live they believe the cooling attitude to those punters who follow the odds and apply mathematics to their wagers, is directly connected to the success of fixed-odds betting terminals and other casino-style games of chance online.

    But the industry insists they are just trying to be fair to the ordinary punter by restricting a small number of what they call "professional" gamblers.

    The BBC asked firms about the practice of restricting bets but most declined to comment.

    However, Paddy Power said it managed financial risk like all businesses and had a number of checks and restrictions in place to prevent certain bets being made.

    "We take a 'one-for-all' rather than an 'all-for-one' view, so for instance if we're prepared to lose €2m (£1.5m) on an event, we would much prefer to lose €2,000 to 1,000 different customers rather than €2m to one individual," a spokesman said.

    William Hill insisted the vast majority of their customers could bet what they like when they liked, but to provide competitive prices to its recreational customer base it sometimes restricted bets from a small minority of customers, mainly professional gamblers.

    Other bookmakers declined to comment on their policies.

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    9 people like this.
  2. Oct 18, 2015
  3. goatwack

    goatwack Lend me some sugar! I am your neighbour! CAG

    Goddammit. I had 25-1 on Black Wagner at Chelmsford. I guess that's gone up in smoke!
  4. Oct 18, 2015
  5. PaaskeDenmark

    PaaskeDenmark Always think positive CAG PABnoaccred webmeister

    Clerk with shipping discounts worldwide
    It is funny and really a joke that they don't think about sooner or later that great punter will lose his will and blow it all in their casino or make stupid bets. It happens for even the best of them.

    I have seen a dozen of videos of prof punters and it is all about making profit and win. But it is not always easy and you might get very long dry streak. This is where some of these punter's might lose their patience and go chase bigger wins or even jump on the casino part.

    So even if they keep winning or have a very nice streak then the bookie should know sooner or later it will return. So silly of them to get rid of winners :thumbsup:
  6. Oct 18, 2015
  7. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Works For Self
    The biG Eu
    This actually is nothing new. The big bookmakers have restricted bets for years its just just with information now so freely available it has become harder to hide. Usually limited to pro sports gamblers who will bet on quite rare events but do bet big the likes of the main street bookmakers can and do close of such accounts. Nothing actually illegal in this as they can refuse to take bets.

    I know that Coral has an army of pros who are always alert to betting trends and accounts which they can flag as high risk.
    And when they decide the risk is too much the "thanks but no thanks" letter arrives.

    One person I do know now has to bet over seas. Banned from pretty much all high street bookmakers and exchange in the UK.

    He places probably 15 to 20 bets per year and when he does he bets big! Even spreading the amounts over a number of takers can not keep him and the likes of him off the radar for ever. The big 3 have closed his account(s). Including those of his partner. Mug bets such as dogs / horses / (slots biggest mug punt of all) they will let ride. Unless there is coup where people are "In the know" even then no guarantee the result will come through. Sports betting though you wont go un-nocticed for long with a steady win streak when placing higher bets. As they have 1000s of customers it is easy to let the high rollers go. Rather they prefer 1000s of smaller mug bets. Similar to airline flights. Pack out clipper class with cheap seats is where the real coin is and not up the stairs on first class.

    Is it right ? does it lack balls ? well suppose thats open to question. But hard facts are they are within there own rights to ban any mofo they want.

    Not that it effects the like of me. I paid for my old mans 2 Lucky 15s today ;-) @ 10p per line ;_) I have a feeling he wont be banned :cool:
    3 people like this.
  8. Oct 19, 2015
  9. asm

    asm Experienced Member PABinit

    This is partly the reason when you see online gambling/betting ads in TV, they usually display young people having fun and playing some thing on the side or some schmuck trying to get extra excitement from a sports event. Basically they want this crowd, because they're profitable suckers.

    You don't even have to win very much with some online establishments to get the boot (I've had that happen many times, or getting limited to the point of absurdity). There's always options though, if not anything else a betting exchange. Of course it sucks if you take it seriously and shop for odds or arb, but there's a few online bookies that offer better odds than these blood suckers and rarely if ever limit you.
  10. Oct 19, 2015
  11. Patriot66

    Patriot66 Experienced Member MM

    United Kingdom
    If you've got a spare two hours, this podcast on the subject is a fantastic listen.

    Neil Channing and Tony Calvin talk a lot of sense.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    3 people like this.
  12. Oct 19, 2015
  13. fun4all

    fun4all Senior Member

    This is a big and important issue the bookmakers would rather was swept under the carpet. Some of them need to look themselves in the mirror and ask if they are proud at what they have become.

    I only bet on sports for fun, but of course I want to profit. There is fun in poring over form and odds and attempting to find a decent wager. I am not stupid, I go on sites that list the odds and if I want to back Manchester United to win I will look for the place offering the best price on that and place my bet there. That is only sensible. It appears that is almost criminal to bookmakers who advertise these prices but as soon as you take them restrict your account, or even worse close it. Their reaction to anybody who dares to have a decent bet with them is to take them outside and shoot them. I would go as far as to say some bookmakers nowadays only use the "sportsbook" as an acquisition tool. On the high street they just want people in to play on the FOBTs. Online they just want people to deposit place a bet then get sidetracked by starburst for 2 hours blowing their account in the process. If you do not play ball then you will be restricted.

    Take for example Coral. Their 2014 public accounts show a staggering 86% of their turnover in the high street shops is from FOBT's. In my opinion there is something terribly wrong with being able to front yourself as a "bookmaker" on a "bookmaker" licence when the reality is 86% of your turnover is on roulette/slots. If they did accept action on the sportsbook like they do on the machines then I would be less critical. However they limit/ban online from the sportsbook at the drop of a hat and in the shops will be extremely hesitatant to take a bet. Disgusting.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think all bookmakers should be forced to take millions of pounds of liability on everything. Far from it - but there has to be some fair middle ground here. Let us not forget they can change the prices immediately and it's up to them what they offer. I suggest that instead of trying to control their liabilites by limiting everyones account who isnt a complete drooler, they control them by setting their prices correctly. If one person is allowed £100 on a 10/1 shot then everybody should be, albeit they can change the price anytime they like. That coral funded program "britain at the bookies" was terrible because it was clearly just a PR exercise from them. The section "punter vs bookie" is of course a misrepresentation. The truth is its "punter of the bookies choosing vs bookie" at the moment.

    What these sites also don't understand is that the fun for a lot of really small gamblers is the dream that one day they will be able to beat the bookie, they will be able to be smart and place some bets and win some money. Once these people realise that that is not allowed to happen, as soon as you place even a few best price bets on decent selections you will be limited to pennies then the dream (and fun of gambling on sports) is over. That's why the likes of Coral want this swept under the carpet and not made public. However they are getting so strong arm over it recently they are losing control over that.

    Being a bookmaker (or running a casino) is an entirely respectable profession. Being somebody who only fleeces stupid people is not. I can't believe what some of them have turned into.
    3 people like this.
  14. Oct 19, 2015
  15. mathsboy1975

    mathsboy1975 Senior Member webmeister

    software engineer
    UK London
    Frankly it amazes me that anyone actually uses a bookmaker to place bets anymore. With the advent of the betting exchange you generally get a far far better price than any bookie offers. Of course, this relies on liquidity in the market but for anyone betting on football or horse racing this is never a problem.

    It is true that betting multiples is less straight forward on exchanges but then a pro gambler would probably not go anywhere near accumulators anyway for obvious reasons.

    Frankly it would amaze me that a pro gambler would use a bookmaker rather than an exchange to place any kind of bet to be honest. There is just no value at a bookie, even when you factor in the some of the charges that exchanges offer.

    I walk past a few bookies on the way home from work - I actually see the same people in them that were in them 25 years ago when I used to frequent them as a 14 year old. These days all I ever see is people on the FOBTs - rarely can you see someone studying form on the racecards stuck up on the walls.
  16. Oct 19, 2015
  17. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    International Money Launderer
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Bookies have essentially become mini-arcades/casinos. It's sickening really how it was allowed to happen. The dominance of FOBTs should never have been allowed to happen (like in Eire) and IMO it's like allowing pubs to go from selling alcohol/drinks/meals for their income to selling drugs to get 90% of their revenue while still proclaiming themselves to be a Licensed Premises because 10% still comes from drinks.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    My personal definition of a Bookmakers is 'An entity permitted to take wagers on physical events, of which the outcome is not controlled by themselves.'

    They started down this road to computerized BS games before the FOBT's - do you remember the stupid 'Rapido' lottery draws or whatever they were called every 20 minutes between races, back in the 1990's??
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  18. Oct 19, 2015
  19. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Works For Self
    The biG Eu
    Agreed these vile machines are the curse of the high street and have changed the face of bookmakers for ever! So many are utterly hooked on them
    inc a few people I know! Thats why you will see 3 or 4 or more bookies on the same high street. Take my small Town for example 2 WH less than a street away from each other. Why ? very easy so they can double up on the FOBTS 4 per shop the maximum currently allowed by law.

    They always deny this but its bollocks. These machines are like slots on crack. Random sure (i think not! ) amazed they get away with it. But they do. The days of the gambler having a punt on the dogs or horses is gone. One bookie who spoke up on a now closed Youtube channel said if they see each machine busy they know they are in for a good day profit wise.

    Should have be banned or at least curtailed down from the 100 quid maximum spin. But the big bookmakers swung into action lobbied the govt and of course won. I am all for freedom to do as we please but these machines have caused untold misery for 1000s and 1000s across the country! :mad:
    1 person likes this.
  20. Oct 19, 2015
  21. fun4all

    fun4all Senior Member

    I am completely for freedom and to do as we please. I do believe FOBT's should be allowed however not in the current situation.

    A "bookmaker" licence should be just that. A licence for a place where the majority of turnover is on betting on sporting events. If somewhere wants to have the majority of their turnover on FOBT's then the most appropriate thing at the moment would be a full casino licence as they are basically offering casino games. There is probably room for some sort of "Electronic Casino" licence specifically for FOBT's

    What absolutely should not be allowed is a situation like we have with Coral at the moment. Claiming to be a "bookmaker", advertising themselves as a "bookmaker" and operating under a "bookmaker" licence yet with 86% of turnover on FOBT's and placing immediate devastating restrictions on any intelligent sports betting punter. That to me is an outright misrepresentation and scandalous.
    2 people like this.
  22. Oct 22, 2015
  23. spintee

    spintee Meister Member webby mm2

    gambler :)
    The bit highlighted I believe Dunover made a post a while back about theses, There was a T.V documentary a while back also and most of profit came from theses machines, There was an outburst and they had to put signs up etc and ban any player they thought had a problem ? Yhe right

    Back to the post, Its not just Bookies that do not want winners :) Online casino's are the same, Look how many people get banned or locked out due to a good hit, I also believe that operators talk to other casinos, Wasn't it mentioned before about the secret club? They pass on names about players that have done charge backs and all that? Gambling is a massive industry let it be online casino / bingo / B&M casino joints or bokkies down to lottery and scratch cards / dog / horse racing / card games / slots roulettes/ pool / snooker the list goes on all the way to the underground bare knuckle boxing to dog fighting,

    You cannot change a tv channel now days without gambling going on even things like tipping point, It all ends up in a few pokets and certainly not mine :mad:
    1 person likes this.

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