Is "Some" Microgaming Casinos becoming

[mishun]

rogues like "Some" RTG?

I signed up at Lake Palace this week. I deposit $300 and got $100 bonus. I begun wagering $25 a hand of BJ (3 spots). Right in the middle of a game, My account was locked. I contacted support, And was told that I had an account with another one of their casinos from 2006. And that I couldn't claim a bonus at their sister casino. So Fine, I asked them what about my incomplete game of BJ. They instructed me that risk management would contact me.

Hi Mishun

Thanks for the mail.


As per our conversation on live chat, we cannot unlock your account and allow you to wager the balance.

I have forwarded your e-mail to the Risk team as they are best equipped to assist you.

You will receive a response form them within 48 hours

Okay, I didnt hear anything for a few days. I contacted again, this time I was told that they were tired of people signing up a their other casinos claiming bonuses and that my account would be remained locked. So I asked for my deposit back. Soon after risk management sent me this:

Dear Ms Mishun

Thank you for your patronage at the Grand Priv Group of Casinos. Please be advised, In compliance with upholding our e-Cogra seal, your gaming account with Grand Priv has been closed and any balances / cash-ins frozen, for the period of the next 6 months. Once this time-frame has passed, your account and any pending funds will be made available to you once again. I apologize for any inconvenience caused. Should you have any further queries, please feel free to contact the Customer Services Team, at anytime.

This is bullshit. I am tired now. To be honest, MG is no better than RTG. I have never had a problem with any RTG. Even Powerbet, Cool Cat, and Palace of Chance has "ALWAYS" paid me. Out of my 5 years of online gambling. You know who i've had trouble with? Casino Rewards, Fortune Lounge, Belle Rock Entertainment, and Jackpot Factory. Casino Rewards told me I used auto-play. Belle Rock won't tell me why. I guessed I turned $50 deposit and $200 bonus into $1500+. Fortune Lounge because of the wire payment deadline back in early 2007. They lied like they couldnt find away to pay me. But they did (by wire) after 6 weeks of run around. And finally JF with that firepay BS.

I think I am going to hang it up. Im gonna do a chargeback and let this be the end of my chapter. Its a gamble now to gamble.

 

[GaryWatson]

Thats unfortunate. I would have assumed the 6 months clause would give them sufficient time to complete a pending investigation. The investigation has been done to their satisfaction so that is a penalty clause. In that case, I dont think that is allowed

 

[Mousey]

What a crock of bull. Whatever has happened to Grand Prive? Once upon a time, they were one of the best....

Can someone explain what would be the problem in returning the player's deposit as s/he is locked out and was given a bonus Grand Prive decided they didn't want to give?

Telling the player s/he has an account at another GP casino.... Is Grand Prive saying this is equivalent to having mulitple accounts? (p.s.: As you've signed up at one of their casinos in the past, I think they now use the same log in info across all casinos.)

 

[Nifty29]

Methinks it may have something to do with the fact that Grand Prive now has a single sign-in e.g. by email address which is used at all GP casinos. So, if you create an account at ANY of the casinos in the group, it established ONE account across the board. If you then go and sign up through a different casino in the group, you effectively have created multiple accounts and therefor claimed the same signup bonus a second time.....but maybe you knew that...???

However, GP really suck IMHO and the fact they are holding on to the cash for 6 months is a load of baloney. Ive never charged back, but in this case I would do it.

 

[paul02085]

What a bunch of thieves. If they are so damned worried about people signing up at multiple sites why dont they create a mechanism to stop the people from doing it? Hell i might have played at one of their sites 4 yrs ago and have no idea which other ones they own. IMO its just a cheap rogue way to steal peoples deposits.
RTG would be proud of you Grand Prive.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Methinks it may have something to do with the fact that Grand Prive now has a single sign-in e.g. by email address which is used at all GP casinos. So, if you create an account at ANY of the casinos in the group, it established ONE account across the board. If you then go and sign up through a different casino in the group, you effectively have created multiple accounts and therefor claimed the same signup bonus a second time.....but maybe you knew that...???

However, GP really suck IMHO and the fact they are holding on to the cash for 6 months is a load of baloney. Ive never charged back, but in this case I would do it.

Complain to eCogra first, a chargeback has to be the LAST resort.

Grand Prive tried this one before with a player who THEY deemed to be under age, even though it was LEGAL for her to play elsewhere. They told her she had to wait till she became of age before she could withdraw what remained of her balance. This went on for ages, and was documented on the forum. In the end, eCogra made then return the deposit. Since this is all you want, you should also be able to get a similar ruling from eCogra.

Had you been intent on "bonus abuse", surely you would have deposited only $100, got the $100 bonus, and THEN had some big Blackjack bets.

Their "multiple account" issue is BS, UNLESS they have a one bonus per group policy and you already had the bonus in 2006, or this sign-up was AGAIN at Lake Palace, the same casino as in 2006.

Their weird system is unique, and I have not seen this at any other MG casino. I expect they are using systems similar to sportsbooks, where the balance is held in a general purse, and appears in whatever of the 5 skins you play in with your single sign-in.

The question is "How clear were the terms about this?". Given that some players may sign up to another Grand Prive skin, having had one from before they had the group sign-in, were the guidance notes, and terms and conditions clear on the fact that if they had already signed up to another skin, they must use these old details to access the new skins, and not create a new registration.

Because of some obscure bugs in their unique system, you would have got the bonus anyway, as it will trigger in all five skins provided you make a $100 deposit from within each skin's OWN banking page.

Their line about bonuses in all 5 seems odd, since they spam the **** out of me for individual skins, as well as "Big Dollar", which is still them, even though they deny it One of their big selling points is the "signature bonus", where they will invite players to have the bonus in the four other skins if they sign up at one, the "bug" seems to be that you get it anyway, even if not "invited" - just don't WIN with it

I suspect it was the $25 BLACKJACK play that got your account locked, and later investigation found the links to an account in 2006, so they found an excuse not to pay, and stall for 6 months - which would neatly place your complaint "out of time" with eCogra, although they would probably deal with it if after the 6 months they confiscated the winnings and balance rather than releasing them to you as promised.

MG do seem to be turning worse though, this is simply following a trend among MG groups where they are pulling these RTG like stunts. What this has mainly done is reduce MG to a brand "just like the others" - it no longer has the credibility it once had as a software brand players could rely on not to get ripped off. Players now have to research MG casinos with the same due dilligence as they have to apply to RTG and Playtech.

Casinos feel they can get away with more for US players, since these players are already doing something they are not supposed to, and are far less likely to go to the authorities since this will mean admitting to gambling online, and any complaint, such as making a chargeback, would likely cause their accounts to come under closer scrutiny, leading to them being unable to continue to make gambling related deposits and withdrawals through their bank, however well disguised.

 

[mishun]

Well...I just called and cancelled all my debit cards. Except the one im charging back on. I closed my quicktender account and asked that it NEVER EVER be reopen again. I closed my e-mail address that I get casino promotions from. I am dead serious. I QUIT THIS BS. GOD GIVE ME THE WILL NOT TO GO BACK, PLEASE!!! ITS NO LONGER WORTH IT. 1) Im tired of losing money that i've already had. 2) The table games are questionable 3) Im tired of waiting 4 weeks or more for checks. 4) Im tired of paying fees for QT deposits & withdrawals 5) These casinos are broke and struggling and gonna get worst with the pullout of Germany. 6) IT'S JUST TIME TO STOP!

MR or MRS CASINO, I GIVE UP! YOU WIN! YOU HAVE BROKEN MY SPIRIT. I AM NOW FREE FROM THE LIES AND MISERY. I USED TO COUNT ON YOU TO HELP PAY FOR THIS OR THAT. NOT ANYMORE, PAUL! GET IT FROM SOMEONE ELSE BECAUSE THIS PETER IS GONE...AND I FUCKING MEANT IT!

 

[footdr]

BONUS VALID AT EACH CASINO UPON INITIAL SIGNUP AND DEPOSIT

You are entitled to the bonus when a new player, at each of the casinos. The problem may be that you played BJ. Normally, BJ excluded from bonus, or has different playthrough rules.

I never play anything except slots until playthrough met. Never had a problems like the ones you have had and have played for over 3 years.

 

[RobWin]

Mishun, did you check to see if BJ was allowed for the playthru requirements?...as for myself I have never had any problem with this group at all and I have an account at all of the casinos within their group. I have been payed faster by this MG group than any other one out there...it has been no longer than six hours at the longest to get my cashin back to my QT account for the past year...

I also took a bonus at all of their casinos too...so just wondering if this does in fact have to do with you playing BJ...but I still can not understand for the life of me why in the world they would hold your account up for six months, this definitely seems extreme !!

 

[aka23]

You are entitled to the bonus when a new player, at each of the casinos.

In May 2007 they changed it to 1 bonus among the group of casino. This is listed in the terms. In any case, the player should certainly recover the money from unfinished bets.

Regarding some MG becoming rogues, there is no doubt that MGs as a whole are not as reputable as they were in the past. A summary of various issues in the past couple years is below:

Fortune Lounge -- Locked thousands of accounts and confiscated winnings from many players. It was temporarily put on rogue list here. As of this week, a player reported that they are still up to their old tricks with confiscated winnings.

Casino Rewards -- Players have had winnings denied for using autoplay, "irregular betting", and various other things. It is known for bonus banning players who sign up at more than 1 casino, or more accurately seeming to give bonuses, but not letting players recover them.

MiniVegas -- Has a history of making cashouts awkward and blaming "fraud rings." Many players have reported being unable to withdraw via Neteller or other method used to make their deposit and being forced to choose an alternative, which may have fees. It almost seems like they are intentionally making cashouts awkward. At least one player had winnings confiscated for "serial promotions abuse."

Grand Prive -- See first post in this thread. Also some incidents in the past that I don't recall the full details. I believe it related to problems claiming bonsues.

Jackpot Factory -- Had poor promotions incident awhile back... Playing slots cured my cancer type of advertising. No recent incidents that I am aware of.

Prime Casino -- A few bad incidents at their startup including illegally removing players' winnings from their Neteller accounts and starting a thread here listing my real name.

Casino Action -- Was suspended from eCOGRA accreditation this week, for unclear reasons

 

[jetset]

I can understand why you plan to retire from online gambling, Mishun - judging by your previous posts you have had more hassles than most which must be frustrating.

I'm trying to come to grips with exactly what it is you have been accused of doing to warrant the closure of your account, and I would appreciate it if you could clarify that.

If it is opening multiple accounts at different casinos within the Grand Prive group, then that would appear to conflict with the experiences of other players here who seem to have done the same thing without a problem (assuming it was not before May 2007 in the rule quoted by aka23 above)

Judging by aka23's post, this rule is current and is displayed by the casino - is that correct?

I don't think I've come across this 6 month lock holding the player's deposit before and if true I would oppose that by lodging an online complaint with eCOGRA - Grand Prive needs to return your deposit timeously.

If you're not already blacklisted, charging back will almost certainly provide an excuse for GP to do so. You may decide to return to online gambling at some future stage, and that would be a severe hindrance. I would therefore join VWM is suggesting that this should be a course of last resort.

Try the eCOGRA route first.

 

[RobWin]

Wouldn't it be real simple for all of these casino groups just to post a small banner on their home page stating that you may only take one bonus from only one casino in their entire group...or is that to much rocket science for them to have to deal with ?

 

[chuchu59]

rogues like "Some" RTG?

I signed up at Lake Palace this week. I deposit $300 and got $100 bonus. I begun wagering $25 a hand of BJ (3 spots). Right in the middle of a game, My account was locked. I contacted support, And was told that I had an account with another one of their casinos from 2006. And that I couldn't claim a bonus at their sister casino. So Fine, I asked them what about my incomplete game of BJ. They instructed me that risk management would contact me.

Hi Mishun

Thanks for the mail.


As per our conversation on live chat, we cannot unlock your account and allow you to wager the balance.

I have forwarded your e-mail to the Risk team as they are best equipped to assist you.

You will receive a response form them within 48 hours

Okay, I didnt hear anything for a few days. I contacted again, this time I was told that they were tired of people signing up a their other casinos claiming bonuses and that my account would be remained locked. So I asked for my deposit back. Soon after risk management sent me this:

Dear Ms Mishun

Thank you for your patronage at the Grand Priv Group of Casinos. Please be advised, In compliance with upholding our e-Cogra seal, your gaming account with Grand Priv has been closed and any balances / cash-ins frozen, for the period of the next 6 months. Once this time-frame has passed, your account and any pending funds will be made available to you once again. I apologize for any inconvenience caused. Should you have any further queries, please feel free to contact the Customer Services Team, at anytime.

This is bullshit. I am tired now. To be honest, MG is no better than RTG. I have never had a problem with any RTG. Even Powerbet, Cool Cat, and Palace of Chance has "ALWAYS" paid me. Out of my 5 years of online gambling. You know who i've had trouble with? Casino Rewards, Fortune Lounge, Belle Rock Entertainment, and Jackpot Factory. Casino Rewards told me I used auto-play. Belle Rock won't tell me why. I guessed I turned $50 deposit and $200 bonus into $1500+. Fortune Lounge because of the wire payment deadline back in early 2007. They lied like they couldnt find away to pay me. But they did (by wire) after 6 weeks of run around. And finally JF with that firepay BS.

I think I am going to hang it up. Im gonna do a chargeback and let this be the end of my chapter. Its a gamble now to gamble.

Mishun,

You have probably encountered the worst from these MG outfits. It's the first time,though, that I have seen one so unlucky to meet with them all.

What actually does GP mean when it says its complying with upholding Ecogra's seal by holding your money for 6 months and closing your accounts. Does it mean that, were it not for Ecogra, your funds would be confiscated? You should be sending an appreciation letter to Ecogra for that.

I wouldnt give up yet if I were you. Just send the whole mail to Ecogra and ask what they think about it. Let us know their answer if you do.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If mishun really wants to quit altogether, and not intend to come back, a chargeback will help boost any weakness in willpower in the future, as it will make it certain that mishun will have trouble in the future. The downside though, is that this "trouble" is likely to turn up at the time of a CASH-IN, rather than a weak willed deposit.
It is therefore STILL best to try the eCogra route first, but also to self exclude from all the casinos. Further, mishun MUST keep a list of all the casinos played in the past, and the groups they belong to, as well as the software. This list will prevent any future mishap in years to come were the industry situation to improve with the USA going for regulation, and the German states being rapped over the knuckles by the EU (which WILL happen, given time), prompting a U turn in policy, or the banning of ALL online gambling, including the "vested interests".

 

[jetset]

This thread has taken an interesting direction, from what at first appeared to be a confusing multi-account penalty lock to a possibly self-exclusion (ie problem gambling) request.

The way I read the material posted already, it's the former that Mishun is complaining about?

 

[handkey]

Well...I just called and cancelled all my debit cards. Except the one im charging back on. I closed my quicktender account and asked that it NEVER EVER be reopen again. I closed my e-mail address that I get casino promotions from. I am dead serious. I QUIT THIS BS. GOD GIVE ME THE WILL NOT TO GO BACK, PLEASE!!! ITS NO LONGER WORTH IT. 1) Im tired of losing money that i've already had. 2) The table games are questionable 3) Im tired of waiting 4 weeks or more for checks. 4) Im tired of paying fees for QT deposits & withdrawals 5) These casinos are broke and struggling and gonna get worst with the pullout of Germany. 6) IT'S JUST TIME TO STOP!

MR or MRS CASINO, I GIVE UP! YOU WIN! YOU HAVE BROKEN MY SPIRIT. I AM NOW FREE FROM THE LIES AND MISERY. I USED TO COUNT ON YOU TO HELP PAY FOR THIS OR THAT. NOT ANYMORE, PAUL! GET IT FROM SOMEONE ELSE BECAUSE THIS PETER IS GONE...AND I FUCKING MEANT IT!

You are the model and the lead of weak lamb in this industry.

Yes, The best way is to leave......

 

[winbig]

At least someone has the kahunas to stand up and quit online gambling if they think the games are questionable at best. Instead of the ones that continually whine that the games are rigged, but yet keep on playing and whining.

But yet, what a way to leave. And people wonder why there's a 'bad' list of players that have made chargebacks.

As it was said before, a simple complaint to ECogra would settle this once and for all. There's no need for a chargeback to get your money back....


If you're a true gambler, you will be back, just give it time....and you'll wish you never did this.

 

[mishun]

Sent: 10 February 2008 22:12
To: General Information
Subject: Player Dispute
Importance: High

I appreciate the effort you have made to contact eCOGRA and explain your predicament. I will contact the customer service team at Lake Palace Casino to follow up on your query today.

The first thing I did was went straight to eCogra. That was 8 days ago and still haven't heard anything from them.

I have not did any chargeback as of yet. But with the reviews im reading about ecogra. I must keep more iron in the fire. So a charge back will be my last weapon. If I have to do one. As long as I get my deposit back. They can fight it out with the Credit Card Company. Im tired now and they all can goto hell.

Online gaming has turned completely sour. Trust? Trust my ass. There is no trust in this industry anymore. NONE! If they will screw over their most loyal affiliates. What makes you think they give a damn about anyone else? I AM FINISHED WITH THESE PEOPLE. ITS NO LONGER WORTH IT. I RATHER DRIVE TO MISSISSIPPI AND PLAY TWICE A MONTH. Then give these liars and crooks one more red cent. AND I MEANT IT!!!

 

[Slotster!]

FWIW, and has a light departure from the subject matter, thanks to your previous post -- "AND I MEANT IT!!!" is the saying of the day in our office today.

"Can you make me a coffee please? AND I MEANT IT!!!"

"I've just sent those documents over, if you could please sort them out today? AND I MEANT IT!!!"

Etc etc...

Hope you get it all sorted one way or another Mishun... I'm sure you will!

 

[USA2112]

This has happen so many times with players deposits at online casinos that make these rediculous rules to confinscate players money, even though for "only six months" it's getting disgusting.

I'm beginning to believe the only way to stop the monster from growing would be to stop advertising all casinos that use the excuse of belonging to a "Group of casinos" This should not be allowed! and have a rule that says you can not claim a bonus at two casinos within their group. It is the casinos that is the problem not the players in these type of situations it is a rogue way of doing business. The terms and conditions they create "And their good at that" should only be allowed for each individual casino and not the whole group.

And as mentioned earlier, why don't casinos put up messages on their homepage saying no more than one bonus with their group of casinos. It would make it to easy for the players to decide to have only one account with their group of casinos and not one with all the casinos in their group, that seems to be offering a nice sign up bonus, until you try to use it!

I think casinos are losing more players every day over these type of problems.

 

[GaryWatson]

And as mentioned earlier, why don't casinos put up messages on their homepage saying no more than one bonus with their group of casinos. It would make it to easy for the players to decide to have only one account with their group of casinos and not one with all the casinos in their group, that seems to be offering a nice sign up bonus, until you try to use it!

I would go further and insist that they do the checking on their end before it comes to payout or locking an account.

Many players are just casual users. They google "online casino" and signup from a mind boggling list of sites. I dont think they need to do a massive study on whether or not they have been on the site, if they have been on one of the sister sites. They shouldnt need a degree in contract law to go through terms which commonly affect them.

I agree. It is the sites fault. Sure there are bonus abusers, etc. but in the most part it is just casual players who havent done a six months study on the site who fall foul of their terms


Furthermore:

Please be advised, In compliance with upholding our e-Cogra seal, your gaming account with Grand Priv has been closed and any balances / cash-ins frozen, for the period of the next 6 months. Once this time-frame has passed, your account and any pending funds will be made available to you once again.

This indicates that it is a penalty. There is no reason to hold the funds other than collect interest. They have concluded their findings. I consider that term invalid and certainly not in compliance of the eCogra Seal

eCOGRA’s Players Seal of Approval is awarded to those casinos which have achieved compliance with eCOGRA’s high standards and demonstrated that:

* Games are fair
* The casino operates honestly and behaves responsibly
* Monetary deposits are safe and winning bets are paid in a timely manner.

If anything, it is going against it. I can understand a 6 month holding time but only in the context of an investigation. That has been completed.

 

[USA2112]

I would go further and insist that they do the checking on their end before it comes to payout or locking an account.

Many players are just casual users. They google "online casino" and signup from a mind boggling list of sites. I dont think they need to do a massive study on whether or not they have been on the site, if they have been on one of the sister sites. They shouldnt need a degree in contract law to go through terms which commonly affect them.

I agree. It is the sites fault. Sure there are bonus abusers, etc. but in the most part it is just casual players who havent done a six months study on the site who fall foul of their terms

Yep, how many times do you hear the words bonus abuse, almost every complaint that has to do with a player and a casino.

The casinos can keep crying wolf all they want when it is legit, but the rediculous terms need to go. In the long run it will come back and bite hard. The longer sites exsist that discuss these type of matters the more educated even the newbies become which means less sign ups for the casinos down the road that use these type of terms.

 

[mishun]

Dear Mishun,

We have investigated your query with the casino and have made the following findings:

Your account was also linked to another account through identifiers.

For security reasons we are not at liberty to disclose the nature of the identifiers.

You have therefore breached the sites Terms and Conditions


Bearing the above in mind, I agree with the casinos decision to lock your account for 6 months. At that time your exclusion will be over and you can choose to withdraw the funds from your account - once they have been able to complete ID verification.

So there you have it. The only account I had with them was in 2006. I owe them NO MONIES and NEVER MADE A WITHDRAWAL. Yet and still they decided to keep my deposit. I don't want anything from them accept my deposit. Tex isn't any good. How can you justify keeping one's deposit? Why lock my money for 6 months and then give it back to me?

SO now should I begin my chargeback process?

 

[RobWin]

Dear Mishun,

We have investigated your query with the casino and have made the following findings:

Your account was also linked to another account through identifiers.

For security reasons we are not at liberty to disclose the nature of the identifiers.

You have therefore breached the site’s Terms and Conditions


Bearing the above in mind, I agree with the casino’s decision to lock your account for 6 months. At that time your exclusion will be over and you can choose to withdraw the funds from your account - once they have been able to complete ID verification.
So there you have it. The only account I had with them was in 2006. I owe them NO MONIES. Yet and still they decided to keep my deposit. I don't want anything from them accept my deposit. Tex isn't any good. How can you justify keeping one's deposit? Why lock my money for 6 months and then give it back to me?

SO now should I begin my chargeback process?

So apparently it's OK with eCOGRA that this ROGUE Casino..IMO..can keep her money now for 6 MONTHS !! you've got to be shitting me...is eCOGRA for real on this decision ? God help us if they are because they are not doing any justice for the player community in that decision and I am tired of upholding them now...

Lock her account fine eCOGRA but give her damn money back...again you've got to be F*****g Kidding Me !!!

So eCOGRA is also saying that the casino needs 6 MONTHS to be able to complete ID verification...eCOGRA what in the hell are you guys thinking over there ?

Gawd, I think I could chew 16p nails right now after reading that lameass decision there by eCOGRA...

 

[c_note]

6 Months

Jetset was the only person to raise a VERY valid point, and no one has picked up on it..

..to a possibly self-exclusion (ie problem gambling) request.

And then included in Michuns message

..At that time your exclusion will be over and you can choose to withdraw the funds from your account

The only place 6 months comes into play with ECOGRA is the 6 month self exclusion request. If you requested to be excluded for 6 months on one of their other brands due to a gambling problem, then they are right to block this account if the 6 month period is still active. But, in my opinion, they should return the balance of your account to you if you request it. But thats just my 1 cents worth..

 

[RobWin]

Well they can do whatever they want but NO BODY has the right just to hold onto your money for 6 MONTHS !!

 

[mishun]

Jetset was the only person to raise a VERY valid point, and no one has picked up on it..



And then included in Michuns message



The only place 6 months comes into play with ECOGRA is the 6 month self exclusion request. If you requested to be excluded for 6 months on one of their other brands due to a gambling problem, then they are right to block this account if the 6 month period is still active. But, in my opinion, they should return the balance of your account to you if you request it. But thats just my 1 cents worth..

No I have not asked to be excluded. Remember my account was in 2006. Its now Feb, 2008 any 6 month exclusion would have been over with (twice). Its was risk management decision to withhold my deposit once I told them I would consider a chargeback.

 

[c_note]

Sigh

Mishun, Thanks for confirming that. And now we know exactly why they are holding onto your deposit for 6 months.

If you threaten a casino with a chargeback, you can almost take it for granted that they will lock your account and hold onto your money until that 6 month period is up. It's 6 months because that is the average time most banks will allow to pass from the date of a deposit till a chargeback can still be requested. The ONLY way a casino can prevent a chargeback is to refund the original deposits, and Visa/MasterCard impose very strict limits on how much can be refunded (up until very recently, Mastercard deposits could not be refunded at all. Now they can be, but it is a huge process to get to the stage where you can actually perform the refunds).

If they give you the money via another method, there is nothing preventing you from then charging back through your bank. So the casino winds up being nailed for the money they sent you, your original deposit and the chargeback fees at between $20 and $100 per transaction. And if you are a VIP with tons of transactions (or just have lots of $20 deposits), charging back can cost the casino their rights to accept credit & debit cards (and tens of thousands of dollars in additional fines from Visa & MasterCard)

I am not saying what the casino is doing in this case (up until the chargeback threat) was right. I am just telling you that if you cry wolf and threaten chargebacks (even if the reason for the chargeback is valid), the casinos will consider you as a potentially very hostile and expensive business risk, and treat you as such.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This chargeback risk is undoubtedly the reason for this 6 month hold. There IS, however, a problem with this. A rogue casino could simply stall for 6 months with this, and then CONFISCATE THE DEPOSIT ANYWAY!
Because of the torrent of player screw-overs that have been happening of late, there is now far less trust between player and casino than there was in the past.
The "multiple account" business is bollox, and coming from eCogra I am shocked!!! This player ADMITS that they had an old account from 2006, and was caught out by this "group" rule introduced more recently, there really is no need for this "security reasons" BS being used as a means to wriggle out of trying to sort this out.
This player clearly "wants out" of online gambling altogether, and does not need to be hanging around for 6 months to sort out this issue. This ruling has made it far more likely that a chargeback will be actioned simply to get out of waiting 6 months for what will be, in effect, the exact same result, and without the need to jump through ID and document hoops in 6 months time. Indeed, after 6 more months of UIGEA, will it even be POSSIBLE for Grand Prive to refund the deposit?

Casinos are VERY VERY AFRAID of the "chargeback", this is probably the strongest weapon in the player's arsenal, however, once used, that player will be most likely barred from EVER being able to play online again.

 

[c_note]

UIGEA & Refunds

Indeed, after 6 more months of UIGEA, will it even be POSSIBLE for Grand Prive to refund the deposit?

Casinos have been unable to refund deposits for a few years now. UIGEA had nothing to do with casinos being unable to refund. Every now and then, a Casino can find a loophole or willing bank and do it, but it does not last for long. Those using tier 1 banks for processing can do it legit (Its called OFT or CFT), but not to US or Canadian cards thanks to visa/MC Regulations. If Grand Prive could refund the transaction now, then this would have happened. Since they cannot, they are sitting on it till they feel safe.

Casinos are VERY VERY AFRAID of the "chargeback", this is probably the strongest weapon in the player's arsenal, however, once used, that player will be most likely barred from EVER being able to play online again.

It does not need to be used. As with Mishuns case, It just needs to be threatened. Its like carrying a knife in the street. If you pull it out, make sure you need to use it and the person (casino) you will use it on is not carrying a gun (global negative database, black lists and more).

A rogue casino could simply stall for 6 months with this, and then CONFISCATE THE DEPOSIT ANYWAY!

Yep, they will, they wont even need the threat of chargeback to do it. They just close your account, invoke the "Management Says bye bye" rule, and stops responding to your emails. THATS when you should be charging back. Some banks only give you 1 month (or 1 statement period) to chargeback on, some give you 2 years. 6 Months is about average.

 

[maxd]

From what I've been able to gather there's a little more to this situation. For instance the casino/eCOGRA report that:

- there is direct evidence linking this player to other accounts.
- the player has flatly refused to provide necessary identification documents.
- the player has made threats and been abusive toward casino/eCOGRA service people. (I've seen some of this material and if someone behaved that way toward me they'd be out the door on the tip of my boot, no questions asked.)
- the casino reports that there is a high risk of charge backs associated with her account.

Why would they lock her account and then re-open it after 6 months? Because they deemed her a high risk and had no intention of letting her take the initiative in the deposit/charge-back game.

 

[The Dude]

I think Mishun needs to be a little more upfront with us. I just did a quick check on her IP and it matches several other members here who have been banned. One member for being a fraudster.

 

[jetset]

Once again, things are perhaps not as they initially were claimed to be....further clarification from Mishun would be interesting.

 

[Mousey]

Oh dear... Mishun, what's the whole story??

Max... did they mean linked to other accounts in her own name at their other casinos, or did they mean multiple accounts (fraud?).

We try so hard to keep the casinos toeing the line and playing straight w/players. And then we have greedy/desperate players proving the exception to the rule that most players are just your everyday Joe/Sue looking for a fair game for their $25.

 

[maxd]

Max... did they mean linked to other accounts in her own name at their other casinos, or did they mean multiple accounts (fraud?).

I can't speak for them (casino/eCOGRA) in detail because I don't have that kind of information but I believe it was the latter that was at issue here. And that's why the refusal to supply proper ID was a particularly relevant.

I think your comment about players and casinos is very important: yes, casinos are sometimes crooked and slimy but players are often guilty of the same thing. The problem is the power balance: casinos hold the cash and that puts them in the position to dictate terms. Players have ... sites like us and that's not quite the same thing is it? That said, players play dirty too and it's important not to forget that, and not be obsessed by it either.

PS. Love your quote, "Everyone gets everything he wants ....", one of my all time favourite movies. And I loved "Redux", go figure.

 

[GaryWatson]

Nice one mishun

Is it any wonder sites often take a harsh stance on innocent individuals

 

[The Dude]

I AGREE 100% VWM. Belle Rock pulled the same stunt on me. I played at Lucky Nugget back in sept. I deposited $50 and got the $200. I met wager requirement and cashed out $2200+ I was denied without reason. Bare in Mind before the USA Ban. I was a 5 year affiliate of Belle Rock

Andre: Our records indicates that your casino account was locked last year September and your $50 deposit was refunded back to you
tln10XXXXXXr: yea but why?
tln10XXXXXXr: i never gotten a reason
Andre: No reason has been given. As per the terms and conditions of Belle Rock Entertainment no reason needs to be given
Andre: When you registered your account, you acknowledged that the Casino is not obliged to give you prior notice of its decision to refuse, deregister or exclude or suspend you, nor to furnish you with any reasons for such decision.

This whole group of casinos is on my RIP List!

I think I found your PAB. This is from September

Casino Name Lucky Nugget
Casino url

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Username or Account tln10XXXXXXr
Who has been contacted: Lucky Nugget
The problem: I am still having trouble get my payout. I was informed that my payout was refused and the decision was final. I was paid via my Gaming Club account without any problem upon submitting my state drivers license and bank statement

And this excerpt

) I have been an affiliate for the past 6 yrs with Belle Rock. 2) My Gaming Club account which was opened a few days earlier than Lucky Nugget was paid out without any problems.

So what's going on?

 

[The Dude]

Oh, I guess I should add that the PAB is from a player who was banned form the forum in October for player fraud (submitting bogus IDs and being connected to other players).

The banned member and Mishun share identical IP addresses. And they so happen to share the IPs of two other members who have been banned for either making abusive posts or for bogus accounts in the forum. There are a few other connecting factors, and this doesn't bode well with me.

Should I dig a bit deeper?

 

[The Dude]

And as I begin to dig, I'm turning over a few yucky stones. Some bizzaro stuff I'm finding.

I'll fill everyone in a little later.

By the way, some of you should not be so swift in jumping in on a casino bash fest - wait until all the cows come home before passing judgement. You'll feel like a plateful of crow later

How 'bout dem animals

 

[Mousey]

And as I begin to dig, I'm turning over a few yucky stones. Some bizzaro stuff I'm finding.

I'll fill everyone in a little later.

By the way, some of you should not be so swift in jumping in on a casino bash fest - wait until all the cows come home before passing judgement. You'll feel like a plateful of crow later

How 'bout dem animals

I love puzzles. Even yucky ones. Keep us filled in.

Crow? A dash of A-1 sauce and a side salad, please. I have a knee jerk reaction to GP, which I try to control. Sometimes, the emotional reaction is quicker than the brain cells. --but it does make quite a difference when we know the whole story.

 

[jetset]

I can't speak for them (casino/eCOGRA) in detail because I don't have that kind of information but I believe it was the latter that was at issue here. And that's why the refusal to supply proper ID was a particularly relevant.

I think your comment about players and casinos is very important: yes, casinos are sometimes crooked and slimy but players are often guilty of the same thing. The problem is the power balance: casinos hold the cash and that puts them in the position to dictate terms. Players have ... sites like us and that's not quite the same thing is it? That said, players play dirty too and it's important not to forget that, and not be obsessed by it either.

PS. Love your quote, "Everyone gets everything he wants ....", one of my all time favourite movies. And I loved "Redux", go figure.

Well said - there's nothing wrong with trying for a fair and balanced view, and this site has earned a lot of respect from the majority of folks involved in online gambling by consistently trying to do exactly that.

It's easy to take an immediate position on one "side" or the other, but keeping an open mind and being realistic are valuable virtues - as we have seen in the past things are not always as they are initially portrayed.

 

[The Dude]

Yep it's a fraudster

After some digging, checking email addresses and IPs here's a brief report.

Mishun is definately connected to Atlanta who was banned from this forum for submitting a bogus claim against Bellerock - I've been able to verify that this is either the same person, or they are in the same house.

That's not so unusual - and is a common thing for a fraudster to get banned in the forum, and try to come back using another personality. Notice how Mishun is quite well versed in the goings on at Casinomeister - and she/he seemed to have a lot of experiences with online casinos, and a couple of negative ones as well. Odd for a newbie.

She/he never PABd to Max about the Bellerock thing either. Tiny red flag

She/he also seemed a little too chummy. We had a relatively serious thread going on with Babs Club World problem, and Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy". Well I won't deny this since many people dig me, but I thought is was a bit too "familiar" so I began to check into her some of her postings. And then bingo:

The same email addresses are being used for some of the accounts that are connected to hers:
Murder1 (player fraud - quit gambling)
Atlanta (banned player fraud )
Itoldyouso (connected to Murder1)
Jtmoney (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)
LordHaveMercy (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)

And then there are the IPs - these accounts are connected to two more banned individuals via IPs - I'm not busting them out yet since it's probably a proxy server.

So in a nutshell, this is Murder1 from way back. It's sad since he admitted to having a gambling problem via LHM and several other personas he's had here in the past. He just can't seem to quit, can he?

 

[GaryWatson]

Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy"

I love you Mister Meister, I think you're so SEXY!

Strange indeed.

 

[vinylweatherman]

After some digging, checking email addresses and IPs here's a brief report.

Mishun is definately connected to Atlanta who was banned from this forum for submitting a bogus claim against Bellerock - I've been able to verify that this is either the same person, or they are in the same house.

That's not so unusual - and is a common thing for a fraudster to get banned in the forum, and try to come back using another personality. Notice how Mishun is quite well versed in the goings on at Casinomeister - and she/he seemed to have a lot of experiences with online casinos, and a couple of negative ones as well. Odd for a newbie.

She/he never PABd to Max about the Bellerock thing either. Tiny red flag

She/he also seemed a little too chummy. We had a relatively serious thread going on with Babs Club World problem, and Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy". Well I won't deny this since many people dig me, but I thought is was a bit too "familiar" so I began to check into her some of her postings. And then bingo:

The same email addresses are being used for some of the accounts that are connected to hers:
Murder1 (player fraud - quit gambling)
Atlanta (banned player fraud )
Itoldyouso (connected to Murder1)
Jtmoney (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)
LordHaveMercy (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)

And then there are the IPs - these accounts are connected to two more banned individuals via IPs - I'm not busting them out yet since it's probably a proxy server.

So in a nutshell, this is Murder1 from way back. It's sad since he admitted to having a gambling problem via LHM and several other personas he's had here in the past. He just can't seem to quit, can he?

A sex change too


Maybe this involved a degree of affiliate fraud too, not just multiple account fraud. The referral payments would give some insurance against being busted by the casino, provided the player was patient. I suspect this because of the comments about having been an affiliate for some years, even to the extent that it was 6 years a while ago, yet is now only 5 years - looks like figures plucked out of thin air.
It might be worth having a closer look at the other BelleRock issues that have appeared recently, maybe there is some connection - perhaps a whoring site, or a number of players who have spotted a glitch in their systems that works to their advantage ( and BelleRock certainy have no shortage of system glitches at present, mostly AGAINST the player though).

 

[suzecat]

After some digging, checking email addresses and IPs here's a brief report.

Mishun is definately connected to Atlanta who was banned from this forum for submitting a bogus claim against Bellerock - I've been able to verify that this is either the same person, or they are in the same house.

That's not so unusual - and is a common thing for a fraudster to get banned in the forum, and try to come back using another personality. Notice how Mishun is quite well versed in the goings on at Casinomeister - and she/he seemed to have a lot of experiences with online casinos, and a couple of negative ones as well. Odd for a newbie.

She/he never PABd to Max about the Bellerock thing either. Tiny red flag

She/he also seemed a little too chummy. We had a relatively serious thread going on with Babs Club World problem, and Mishun out of the blue calls me "sexy". Well I won't deny this since many people dig me, but I thought is was a bit too "familiar" so I began to check into her some of her postings. And then bingo:

The same email addresses are being used for some of the accounts that are connected to hers:
Murder1 (player fraud - quit gambling)
Atlanta (banned player fraud )
Itoldyouso (connected to Murder1)
Jtmoney (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)
LordHaveMercy (Quit Gambling, connected to Murder1)

And then there are the IPs - these accounts are connected to two more banned individuals via IPs - I'm not busting them out yet since it's probably a proxy server.

So in a nutshell, this is Murder1 from way back. It's sad since he admitted to having a gambling problem via LHM and several other personas he's had here in the past. He just can't seem to quit, can he?

Hey Bryan! This is exactly why we keep you around!:notworthy

......by the by............don't know if you're sexy.........sure your wife thinks so.......

 

[Nifty29]

Yup - if I was a woman I would do him.

Mind you, Im not sure thats a ringing endorsement.....