I'm such an idiot to start playing online again!

Let_It_Ride

Non-Gambler
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
europe
Last year I finally accepted I have a gambling problem and stopped gambling for nearly a year and informed all the casinos about my problem and asked them to exclude me. A few weeks ago in a moment of weakness I tired to re-open or open new accounts (using the same PC, name, address and card details). Most casinos were good and said they were unable to let me play as I had excluded myself, this is good this is was us addicts need in moments of weakness.

However my story is about my experience with two casino that let me play again and the different way they handled my account.

Casino one let me open a new account, deposit and play, here I won 100euros and requested a withdrawal, a few days later I get an email saying we see you have a gaming problem we have closed your account, all bets are void! so no winnings and refunded my original deposit. Question, I used the same name, address etc. can the system have not locked me out before I played? Still for only a 100euro win I'm not gonna stress and atleast these guys have finally locked me out and stopped me playing.

Casino two, re-opened my old account, online chat also highlighted they see I have a gambling problem so I can only deposit with NETeller now and not my VISA card (what difference this makes I do not know!) they also asked me to email them to say I no longer have a gambling problem, this I never did.
I then spend the weekend playing and all the stress and addiction come back, I deposit, lose, chase, deposit, lose, chase... break even, withdrawal, go away. Have the sweats, come back, reverse 100, lose, reverse 200 lose, reverse 300, break even, withdraw. Next day reverse withdraw, play and lose everything, finally say STOP you're killing yourself and manage to walk away.

2 days later I get an email saying we can't let you play at our casino until you confirm you are no longer an addict, I write back saying you've let me play all weekend and I'm still very much an addict, ask them to close my account and ask if they will void my bets deposits as did casino one. They say will refer this to management, over 1 week later and after several emails from me I finally get a reply, they confirm my account is closed, but sorry management say no bets are void! what a surprise, I'm sure it would be a different story if I had won, like at casino number 1.

Shows nothing has changed in this industry after a year and still many cowboys out there, these guys don't give a damn about helping people with a gaming problem, infact they do everything they can to bleed your last penny!
Casino in question 'spin palace'
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Very poor,
You should have been locked out INSTANTLY you tried to play again, and where you had to request reopening of an account this should have been referred to senior management who should have not done so until they had received a declaration from you that you no longer had a problem.

Where there IS a slip up, then ALL bets should be void, not just when you win.

If it was a new account that was opened, they should have accepted the voiding of bets once they discovered you had a problem, and could prove it.

It would be fair to name BOTH casinos, not just Spin Palace, as both are lacking.

MG casinos should be better than this, they are quick to ban players who raise fraud suspicion flags, so why are there no flags raised when a former declared addict tries to play again.

Where a former addict IS accepted back, their deposit limits should be strictly limited, not just by method, but by AMOUNT, and all credit card methods should be banned.
UKASH is particularly inconvenient when it comes to "chasing behaviour", so only allowing UKASH has the following benefits:-

1) Player can only play with cash currently in their possession.
2) They have to go to the nearest paypoint to get more, and 100 is the top limit per voucher (possibly per shop visit).
3) They should not allow ANY reversal of a withdrawal, and should pay by cheque if the player is able to deal with them, as this puts a brake on the speed this money can be redeposited and lost.

4) When players request exclusion, they should be able to specify a time limit at the outset, which should be set in stone so they cannot lose control and have a change of mind.
 

Slotster!

I predict a riot.
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Location
Location, Location!
Thanks for sharing, and some excellent advice there Vinyl!

Problem is, casino's want -- in fact -- NEED the chasers, it's their lifeblood. To put restrictions like 'UKash' only in place would only damage their bottom line. (As it happens, I quite like using UKash to 'set' my bankroll, but it helps I've got a mate who just sorts it out for me and saves me going down the shops myself!)

IMHO, Wagerworks have the best 'self restricting' setup...
 

thetic

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Location
Scotland
Let It Ride, I know a little about gambling addiction and think the casinos in question should be taken off accredited list (if they are on, I haven't checked) for this type of behaviour. I am not surprised a casino won't pay you back after you have lost at it after slipping through the net (not condoning it in any way) but to withold winnings for this reason is beyond belief! They should be wishing you well, paying out and letting you know you will never be allowed near their casino again...

You realise you have issues and can not control your gambling once started, I do not want to patronise you at all but you need to be putting up all barriers possible to stop you gambling again. Gamblers anonymous believe that if can not control your gambling the likelihood is you will never be able to, once an addict always an addict. I am not qualified enough to advise whether this is correct or not but, if so, setting time limits and signing declarations saying you no longer have a problem is not good enough - GET AWAY FROM THE CASINOS AND STAY AWAY.

I would also suggest that you get Gamblock ( www.gamblock.com , I have no connection and apologies for posting link if this is against forum rules but feel it is worthwhile for this thread) installed on each computer that you use for your gaming. However it is linked to individual computers so keep away from internet cafes and reinstall it on a new PC if you get one! Gamblock should stop you getting access to any of these sites for the period of your subscription ($75 for 1 year) so take out the longest one you can (up to 3 years I believe). The price is maybe high for the software involved but should pay for itself many times over and save you a lot of temptation.

I wish you well in your quest to come through this whichever manner you decide to tackle your addiction.
 

thetic

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Location
Scotland
Just noticed your slogan at bottom of your posting and think that your 1st step would be to change this!
 

Centre-Wise

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Location
Sydney
It is because of this type of behaviour that the industry suffers, problem gambling must be a top priority for any Casino or Pokerroom. Once a player identifies him/herself as a problem gambler the Casino in question should stop all account activity, failure to do so should result in a refund of deposits and voiding of bets from the point at which the player indicated they had a gambling problem.

It is the nature of a problem gambler to slip up every now and then, so it falls to the Casino to be ready and prepared to step in, stop, prevent and help the problem gambler from further damaging themselves.

I very much support responsible wagering; I believe its necessary for the industry to take care of itself, having attended the Gamecare course on responsible wagering, I recommend others to do so also. It offers insight into interesting ideas on how to recognise and offer advice regarding this matter.

Its unfortunate that those Casinos acted as they did, I believe you should request to speak with management regarding your case at the 2nd Casino. Inform them that they failed in their responsibility to act correctly and considering that you were clearly flagged as a Problem gambler (which they acknowledged), they should never have allowed you to open an account. In fact encouraging you to email in to confirm you had recovered from an addiction (which you cannot judge for yourself, and requires a medical confirmation) is irresponsible.

Cheers,

Dorian
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
I dunno.
The tobacco companies tell me smoking may be hazardous to my health
The alcohol companies want me to drink responsibily
Casinos have an 800 number for gambling irresponsibily
My mother always told me not to play in the RAIN
and Now the condom companies tell me to wear a RAINCOAT.:confused::confused::confused::D
What's a man to do???
 

Let_It_Ride

Non-Gambler
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
europe
thank you to everyone who has replied and for thier support and sound advice. I would love to speak to spin palace management but this has proved impossible, they only to seem to communicate via their customer service people.

I accept online casinos are a business like any other, and businesses are there to make money, but do they really need to increase their profit margins by another 1 or 2% by prying on the sick.

A few months ago my doctor told me I am suffering from major depression, he explained it is an illness and addication is very much a part of this illness. and the best way to deal with this as well as the drugs is to accept you are ill and ask for help.

So come on online casinos, ask yourself do you really need that extra 1% profit at the cost of players ruined lives. You have the power and the software to stop problem gamblers, as I said I opened new accounts using exactly the same name, address etc. are you really saying your software could not spot this, well not until a withdrawal was made lol!!!!!!!
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
It is because of this type of behaviour that the industry suffers, problem gambling must be a top priority for any Casino or Pokerroom. Once a player identifies him/herself as a problem gambler the Casino in question should stop all account activity, failure to do so should result in a refund of deposits and voiding of bets from the point at which the player indicated they had a gambling problem.

It is the nature of a problem gambler to slip up every now and then, so it falls to the Casino to be ready and prepared to step in, stop, prevent and help the problem gambler from further damaging themselves.

I very much support responsible wagering; I believe it’s necessary for the industry to take care of itself, having attended the Gamecare course on responsible wagering, I recommend others to do so also. It offers insight into interesting ideas on how to recognise and offer advice regarding this matter.

It’s unfortunate that those Casinos acted as they did, I believe you should request to speak with management regarding your case at the 2nd Casino. Inform them that they failed in their responsibility to act correctly and considering that you were clearly flagged as a Problem gambler (which they acknowledged), they should never have allowed you to open an account. In fact encouraging you to email in to confirm you had recovered from an addiction (which you cannot judge for yourself, and requires a medical confirmation) is irresponsible.

Cheers,

Dorian

Good post, Centre-wise. Underage and problem gambling are two of the most frequent sticks used by online gambling detractors to beat up the industry, and preventing both should be a major priority.

If this report is true, Spin Palace has some explaining to do imo.
 

Let_It_Ride

Non-Gambler
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
europe
If this report is true, Spin Palace has some explaining to do imo.

Hi jetset, the report is true, I have no hidden agenda here. Over the weekend 18/05 I deposited over 600euros, on the 21/05 I got the email below, sorry it's in french, but that's because I live in France.

Cher xxxxxx,


Numro de compte: xxxxxxxxxxx


Vous vous tiez auparavant exclu des jeux sur les casinos en ligne, apparament parce que vous aviez un problme psychologique dans ce domaine. Afin que nous puissions vous permettre de jouer nouveau sur notre casino, nous avons besoin que vous nous envoyiez un email prcisant que vous avez pu rsoudre ce problme.
Nous ncessitons cela pour conserver notre cachet eCOGRA.

Nous vous remercions de votre comprhension.
Surtout n'hsitez pas nous recontacter si vous avez besoin de quoi que ce soit d'autre.


Cordialement,

xxxxxx


a very basic translation : in the past you have been excluded from online gaming because you have a gambling problem. Before we can let you play at our casino again we need you to confirm that you no longer have a problem. We need this in order to keep our eCOGRA certificate.

Thankyou for you understanding..... regards,

I'll be more then happy to provide the spin palace rep here (is he still around Darren?) any other info if he wants to look into this.
 

babs7262

Banned User
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Location
PA
Hi "let it ride"

This post will probably cause a storm and people will probably be mad at me but I am not one to hold back because it's not a popular answer. The reality is.....you asked us about something and not everyone will agree.

I want you to know that this post is not in malice. I feel bad for you because I understand addiction, truely I do.

The thing is....the reality is that addicts have relapses, no matter the addiction. This doesnt mean your going to fall down forever, you recognized it and did something about by writing these casinos and having your account closed BUT........You cant really blame them. That is like asking a bar to remember you and never serve you a drink because of alcoholism or telling a drug dealer not to serve you anymore because you are a drug addict. The reality is that this is their bread and butter and unfortunately, they depend on addicts to do well.

I wish we could just tell our "companies, suppliers, bars to do this and it would work but everything falls on the addict not to be tempted. Again, I know this and wont go into this because this post is about you, not me.

I wish you well and will never judge you or anyone else that has a relapse. I just feel we shouldnt blame the people who make a living sucking money from people. It is up to us to stay strong and make phone calls and find ways to distract ourselves.
 

Palace Group

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Location
Online
Serious

Hi all,

I can appreciate what Babs is saying however we do have pretty strict rules when it comes to people with gaming problems.
I have PM'd the player and will see what happened here.

We work on a lot of rule sets when it comes to picking up accounts that may be linked/on our gaming problem data base however players do find ways through.

I would really prefer to look into this particular case and establish what happened before making any comments.

Looking forward to your PM Let It Ride..

Regards,

Darran
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Crocodile tears

Okay my first post.

To begin dont take me wrong, I myself like gambling and dont have a problem with it.

But this thread is not a surprice to me when I reckon that problem and pathological (P&P) gamblers (2-5% of population where casinos exists) acccounts for about 50% of casino revenues. Also to remember is that 10% of the population accounts for 80% of the revenues. Expressed in reverse 90% of the population provides as little as 20% of the revenues. (Grinols&Mustard)
These were numbers of B&M casinos in the US. These are propably quite accurate for online casinos too.

Keeping this in mind its not in the casinos benefit to exclude P&P gamblers. Its quite easy to recognize a P&P gambler and have you ever heard of a casino that has taken the first step?
 

MPB

Dormant account
Joined
May 31, 2007
Location
Germany
What was the other casino the OP played at?
I think it has behaved much worse than Spin Palace did.
It simply stole all winnings with a rather poor excuse.
How big are the chances he would have as easily been refunded his deposit if he lost? I can't help to think they are far below zero.
 

babs7262

Banned User
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Location
PA
forgot something

I just wanted to make it clear that I thinks it horrible that they wouldnt cash out the winnings because they took the deposit. I was focused on the other issue and didnt want you guys to think LER shouldnt get the winnings
 

soflat

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
I don't think they were so wrong not to refund your losses. You gambled and lost. You need to take responsibility and not blame the casino for your mistake.

Maybe some good will come out of it though if Spin Palace reviews its policies and procedures to better prevent problem gamblers from slipping thru in the future.
 

jerrylee

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Location
Playa del Vaquero (I wish)
Last year I finally accepted I have a gambling problem and stopped gambling for nearly a year and informed all the casinos about my problem and asked them to exclude me. ..

Casino one let me open a new account, deposit and play, here I won 100euros and requested a withdrawal, a few days later I get an email saying we see you have a gaming problem we have closed your account, all bets are void! so no winnings and refunded my original deposit. Question, I used the same name, address etc. can the system have not locked me out before I played?

Hi Let_It_Ride, I've taken a break from posting here for a while, but will offer some insight. It's not unheard of for players to use one account for a while, and then close it for one reason or another. Then players can create a new one and the system doesn't detect it until a transaction is made. I heard that casinos do this, because there are literally 1000s of players accounts and many of them are inactive (no withdrawal requests), so it wouldn't make sense to analyze them all..just the ones that show activity.
True, it would have been better to lock you out before instead of after the fact.


Casino two, re-opened my old account, online chat also highlighted they see I have a gambling problem so I can only deposit with NETeller now and not my VISA card (what difference this makes I do not know!)

Having worked in e-commerce, I heard credit card purchases are more risky to the casino. They can be charged back at any time, players often claim they didn't authorize charges, don't recognize, it wasn't them, etc.. then the casino loses both the purchase and if it goes to chargeback, a knock against their record. Above a certain percentage and they'll get in trouble with their processor and at worst, be eliminated and put on a black list.

I believe neteller guarantees transactions for merchants, whereas visa does not. So there's less risk with neteller and it's not reversible.

2 days later I get an email saying we can't let you play at our casino until you confirm you are no longer an addict..

Ok, I don't know how a player can prove he's no longer an addict, maybe show proof of being enrolled in GA... that's a pretty fishy request.

But looking from the casinos point of view, player like you, addiicted and spending on the casino operation is what pays the bills. They still have to spend $$ on their hardware, personnel, licensing, etc. Granted I think the second casino messed up, letting it go too far. There is such a thing as responsible gaming and it's a 2 way street.
 

cyprean

Banned User
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Location
Sun/Moon
What was the other casino the OP played at?
I think it has behaved much worse than Spin Palace did.
It simply stole all winnings with a rather poor excuse.
How big are the chances he would have as easily been refunded his deposit if he lost? I can't help to think they are far below zero.

Agree. So what was the name of the 1st casino?
 

Centre-Wise

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Location
Sydney
This post will probably cause a storm and people will probably be mad at me but I am not one to hold back because it's not a popular answer. The reality is.....you asked us about something and not everyone will agree.

I want you to know that this post is not in malice. I feel bad for you because I understand addiction, truely I do.

The thing is....the reality is that addicts have relapses, no matter the addiction. This doesnt mean your going to fall down forever, you recognized it and did something about by writing these casinos and having your account closed BUT........You cant really blame them. That is like asking a bar to remember you and never serve you a drink because of alcoholism or telling a drug dealer not to serve you anymore because you are a drug addict. The reality is that this is their bread and butter and unfortunately, they depend on addicts to do well.

I wish we could just tell our "companies, suppliers, bars to do this and it would work but everything falls on the addict not to be tempted. Again, I know this and wont go into this because this post is about you, not me.

I wish you well and will never judge you or anyone else that has a relapse. I just feel we shouldnt blame the people who make a living sucking money from people. It is up to us to stay strong and make phone calls and find ways to distract ourselves.

I would have to disagree with this post.

If we take the bar environment, with customers coming up to the bar day in day out, yes it would be hard to expect the bar staff to remember a particular person.

However in the casino environment you have more than just a face to go by.

A player would or should be recorded on a separate database clearly indicating that they should not be allowed to open an account, deposit or even place a bet. It is then the responsibility of the Casino to run a successful duplicate account search which would identify these players on log in or registration, there are other reasons why this function is necasery(history of chargebacks, bonus abusers etc.).

It is because of the fact that addicts slip up that the Casinos need to take the next step and prepare themselves for the inevitable, it’s not like this type of situation is unique.

Ethics need to be taken into consideration when considering responsible wagering, it’s not just a point of saying "we support problem gamblers", but rather the proactive steps made to identify and prevent these users from ruining their lives. As mentioned briefly an additional incentive towards making these steps is that if you stop the problem gambler before he makes the deposit, there is a good chance you could be avoiding a chargeback.

However saying this, its not just the sole purpose of the Casino to make these steps but rather any identified Problem gambler has to help themselves, seek medical advice, block and delete any Casinos and Poker products, close your sportsbook accounts etc…

As to the behaviour of the 1st Casino, I would say that the response was the correct one to take, it is unfortunate that the player won and there’s no way to prove if they would have behaved in the same way had the player had lost instead.

Cheers,

Dorian
 

Palace Group

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Location
Online
Reply

Hi all,

I had a look into the case and will confirm the following:

The player contacted us in July last year to ask for an exclusion
It was confirmed that we ofer a 6 month exclusion to which the player agreed and was subsequently locked and blocked for 6 months
The player came back to us in May and registered a new account
We did not in any way contact, entice or offer this player anything to open a new account or re-open their existing account with us
We honoured the 6 month ban agreed upon by both parties and were in our right to accept the player again
Once the player informed us he still had a problem, we once again blocked/locked him.

I hope this clarifies why the player was allowed to deposit and play.

Kind regards,

Darran
The Palace Group
 

dominique

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Location
The Boonies
I don't think they were so wrong not to refund your losses. You gambled and lost. You need to take responsibility and not blame the casino for your mistake.

I do agree.

If addiction had no negative consequences, no one would ever feel compelled to quit.

Addiction is for life, unfortunately so. Everytime you let yourself slip, you will have a problem.

It is good for the casinos to prevent addicts from playing (for life!!! not 6 months) but it is you who is responsible for managing your addiction.

The alcoholic who slipped cannot claim his health back, and you can't claim your money back.

Chalk it up to a lesson learned... and you will benefit.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
New stats on problem gambling

BWIN STUDY SHOWS LOW PERCENTAGE OF ONLINE PROBLEM GAMBLING

In a survey of 40 499 respondents, only 1 percent showed addictive signs

The Vienna listed Bwin Interactive online betting group has released an appetiser on the mammoth online gambling survey it has been working on with Cambridge Health Alliance (CHA), an affiliate of the prestigious Harvard Medical School .

The full results of the study, which took place between February and October 2005 and embraced 40 499 players on the Bwin websites, are expected soon.

Speaking at the GIGSE conference in Montreal this week, CHA director Richard A LaBrie described the survey as the first public study of actual e-gaming behaviour, a statement that does not take into account an 11 000 respondent global study undertaken last year by the University of Nottingham Trent for eCOGRA.

LaBrie told delegates that the study showed that the median behaviour of bettors amounted to a spend of Euro 4 per day. According to the research, only 1 percent of the 40 499 respondents exhibited behaviour which could be read as problem gambling, or discontinuously high.

Euro 61.6 million was wagered during the study, and 7.8 million bets placed. For the 39 719 players classified as median bettors, total average wagers for the duration of the study was Euro 148.

Referring to the 1 percent of the sample who might be regarded as potentially problematic, LaBrie revealed that even these are only spending the equivalent of maybe a good bottle of wine a day, online.

Regarding the study methodology, all of the studys participants were from the Bwin website, and the survey covered both account fixed-odds and live action betting.
 

Let_It_Ride

Non-Gambler
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
europe
Hi all,

We honoured the 6 month ban agreed upon by both parties and were in our right to accept the player again
Once the player informed us he still had a problem, we once again blocked/locked him.

I hope this clarifies why the player was allowed to deposit and play.

Kind regards,

Darran
The Palace Group

if you were in the right then why after 3 days (21st) did spin palace email me asking me to confirm that I no longer had a gambling problem before you could let me play? the proof is there man, but you only see what you want and twist the facts in your favour.

You also took over a week and 3 email reminders before you confirmed my account closed.

6 month ban, BS, when I closed my account I was told it was a life ban and also my details would be shared with MG database so I could never play at an MG casino again, well I have news for ya, I can still play at MG casinos

Why did I only name this casino and not the other? simple spin palace management in my experience have always been arrogant and would not even discuss this with me, at least the mangement of the other casino took time to talk to me.
 

Let_It_Ride

Non-Gambler
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
europe
I dunno.
The tobacco companies tell me smoking may be hazardous to my health
The alcohol companies want me to drink responsibily
Casinos have an 800 number for gambling irresponsibily
My mother always told me not to play in the RAIN
and Now the condom companies tell me to wear a RAINCOAT.:confused::confused::confused::D
What's a man to do???

enjoy your snide comments while you can my friend, because tomorrow it might be you who falls over and will need a helping hand.
 

happygobrokey

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Location
canada
the net makes it super easy for addicts of many things to fall off the wagon. gambling, porn, shopping, even sexual predators might be attempting to recover and find the pull of the computer too strong. it isn't entirely logical to just eliminate computers from one's life, but surely there must be avenues to curtail the availability of such things. gamblock has been mentioned, but there must be free software of similar nature or other ways of preventing oneself having access to certain sites/services. what if you just uninstall all your casino software and instruct your computer to disallow access to all the sites you know host casinos? you may still be vulnerable to new casinos that open up and you somehow find them, but if you can find the power to block before you can download, then you can hopefully keep casinos out of your life. we could keep a list here so anyone interested in this could easily copy the list into their internet block list, plus it would be interesting to attempt to list the website of every active casino on the internet.

someone said "take a walk, make a call" etc to get your mind off it kind of thing, well even if the compulsion to gamble is go great it feels overwhelming, you could do this. take only your driver's licence and a reasonable sum of cash (100-200 maybe, something that is totally expendable), and NO means of getting more money on you (like a debit/credit card), drive out to a live casino. leave a twenty locked in the car just to cover any emergency situation on the road, and if you lose your money and think you're going out to the car for the twenty, once you get there to grab it, just jump in and head home. i liken this to a safe-shoot/methadone clinic, it gives you what you need at a minimum of risk. and also, knowing that for you to gamble would take driving x miles and consume at least h hours of your life, then you will begin to not want to do it. quitting smokers often lock their smokes up and put them in like 20 ziplocs so getting them out is so much of a pain that you'd rather not smoke given how much of a task it is.

and i think restricted supervised preportioned gambling is not as bad a thing as if a recovering alcoholic were to go out of town and have a drink. gambling has a point to it, to try and win money, and there is a possibility of doing some good by gambling. abusing a substance does harm every time. the tough bit with gambling is that the instrument that provides it sits right in your living room or wherever your internet hooks up. surely recovering alcoholics wouldn't keep bottles of liquor within arm's reach while trying to abstain.

the best advice for addiction is ONE DAY AT A TIME. that's only the best you can do. wake up each day, and try your hardest to do what you need to to survive and be healthy. :thumbsup:
 
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